Do D.O. Schools heavily prefer blacks/latinos like M.D. Schools do?

[fastlane]

Hey guys, as it is pretty well known, its significantly easier to get into M.D. schools if you are any type of minority: native american, latino, black, etc.

I was curious, do D.O. schools also have a sizable margin of preference for some races over others too, or is it more fair?

Thanks guys!

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[guydudcl371]

So I can't help but think you're trying to start something with this post, but I will answer without fueling the debate as best as possible. The official policy of most DO schools, in my experience, is to take into account whether or not people are from underrepresented communities in medicine (not any type of "minority," asians for example do not fall into the underrepresented category and are still a "minority"). The extent to which schools allow this to factor in depends greatly on the individual schools.

Hey guys, as it is pretty well known, its significantly easier to get into M.D. schools if you are any type of minority: native american, latino, black, etc.

I was curious, do D.O. schools also have a sizable margin of preference for some races over others too, or is it more fair?

Thanks guys!

 

[whoop]

The Troll University of the Americas must have just had a graduation.

 

[DocEspana]

Additionally, the application companies (forgive me, i forget their acronyms right now) are hugely specific that its not just minorities, but medically underrepresented minorities.

Let me make a specific example: being cuban does not count, neither does being mexican. But being guatamalan, ecuadorian or bolivian would count. There are plenty of cuban and mexican doctors out there (how they calculated this, idk), but not enough culturally familiar with other hispanic nationalities and their specific quirks.

I would not doubt that this comment will not catch the knee-jerk reactions it thinks it should, and will instead draw some studies showing that diversity of application, when applied fairly (and it is in medical applications) leads to higher quality education. I can think of a specific military-backed study, but im sure there are plenty of civilian ones that will get cited here soon enough.

 

[Iswhatis]

Hey guys, as it is pretty well known, its significantly easier to get into M.D. schools if you are any type of minority: native american, latino, black, etc.

I was curious, do D.O. schools also have a sizable margin of preference for some races over others too, or is it more fair?

Thanks guys!

I don't think the minority love for DO applicants is anywhere near the level that it is for allopathic applicants, but I have no references for this "feeling". Of course it doesn't hurt to have a competitive application and be a "medical minority". But I don't think anyone can factually comment to the notion of, "I have a GPA and MCAT nearly a std dev below Asian and White matriculant averages, but I'm Black so I'll get in right?". This sort of issue is very sensitive to pretty much everyone, and will cause a reaction depending on their political leanings. My suggestion to you is to not worry about the current acceptable social/political racism, because you wont change it anytime soon. Just do the best you can and have an application that you can be proud of.

 

[fastlane]

There are plenty of cuban and mexican doctors out there (how they calculated this, idk), but not enough culturally familiar with other hispanic nationalities and their specific quirks.

Interesting comment, that is an interesting way to think of it. So you're saying it is not based on the number of applicants, but instead maybe on the number of doctors practicing from a specific race, that determines how hard it is for that race to gain acceptance to medical school? I can definitely buy your point that there are many Cuban doctors, because it seems that their average GPA/MCAT is nearly as high as asians/whites applying to medical school.

Please look here for more detail:
https://www.aamc.org/download/​161696/data/table19-mcatgpa-ra​ceeth-2010-web.pdf.pdf

... showing that diversity of application, when applied fairly (and it is in medical applications) leads to higher quality education.

Not sure if I am with you on this one.

But I don't think anyone can factually comment to the notion of, "I have a GPA and MCAT nearly a std dev below Asian and White matriculant averages, but I'm Black so I'll get in right?". This sort of issue is very sensitive to pretty much everyone, and will cause a reaction depending on their political leanings.

You're definitely right on this. I know a lot of people are upset because they feel they lost their seat in medical school to an under-qualified applicant of a different race. It's tough to come to terms with the fact that something you are born with (your race), can potentially be the determining factor that stops you from getting into medical school. But yeah, your quote, as controversial as it is, is basically the truth in today's medical school application system (see aamc link I posted above).

 

[DocEspana]

Interesting comment, that is an interesting way to think of it. So you're saying it is not based on the number of applicants, but instead maybe on the number of doctors practicing from a specific race, that determines how hard it is for that race to gain acceptance to medical school? I can definitely buy your point that there are many Cuban doctors, because it seems that their average GPA/MCAT is nearly as high as asians/whites applying to medical school.

Its not just a way to think about it. Its what it is. I'm a cuban/spanish mix. I got hispanic scholarships to go to undergrad. When I applied to medical school they ask you for your race/ethnicitiy, where I was able to pick hispanic. They then additionally asked you if you're a "medically underrepresented minority" and when you click yes a little pop down window shows up that asks you to state which country. I asked the application company why certain countries (cuba included) weren't on there. The answer was, despite being latino in ethnicity, they are not underrepresented in medicine.

Not sure if I am with you on this one.

Well I know the study exists and that's what it says. Its large and statistically significant to the american population. But it is only one study, so the fact that it's still constantly referenced as the proof of affirmative action's efficacy to everyone, I have to *assume* other studies must have followed it and backed it up. It would have been pushed to the wayside if it wasn't backed by other studies.

It also should be noted that its assumed (I cant say studied here because I'm quoting people in the know, not studies/research) that white women are the biggest beneficiary of affirmative action in the graduate and post-graduate world. I also dont think there is any evidence that a white male has ever not gotten in when a clearly inferior person has. I can say that if people match up and their is a dearth of one, you go with the scarce one. But matching up, and being more qualified are two different things. But that is putting my toe into subjective territory I dont really want to be in. So that's all I say there.

 

[Iswhatis]

Well I know the study exists and that's what it says. Its large and statistically significant to the american population. But it is only one study, so the fact that it's still constantly referenced as the proof of affirmative action's efficacy to everyone, I have to *assume* other studies must have followed it and backed it up. It would have been pushed to the wayside if it wasn't backed by other studies.

Do you mean representative of the American population? If you get a chance, would you kindly post a link (if available) to this study? Also, other studies need not follow in order to avoid your so called "wayside". Does the autism study ring a bell?

I think that this topic needs to have far more exposure, because it is clearly "THE elephant in the room", but is unfortunately an issue dominated by a single line of thought, and monitored through means of threatening and bullying by the pawns who give it credence.

 

[DocEspana]

Do you mean representative of the American population? If you get a chance, would you kindly post a link (if available) to this study? Also, other studies need not follow in order to avoid your so called "wayside". Does the autism study ring a bell?

I think that this topic needs to have far more exposure, because it is clearly "THE elephant in the room", but is unfortunately an issue dominated by a single line of thought, and monitored through means of threatening and bullying by the pawns who give it credence.

Cant find the specific military study. You're more than welcome to look. Its referenced by other studies as a case study of USMAPS, USNAPS, and USAFAPS and their usage of affirmative action in their selection of who gets the education and who just gets the regular vanilla bootcamp and the outcomes if either one is done the "classic" style or with some selectivity towards affirmative action. I know the outcome is they showed much "better" (not sure of the metric) educated soldiers and officers came from the programs with active affirmative action. But that's out in 1990. Some more recent stuff:

http://opr.princeton.edu/faculty/Tje/EspenshadeSSQPtII.pdf. Spark notes: if we removed affirmative action black enrollment in top level schools would drop 66% and hispanic enrollment would drop 50%. The "hole" would almost entirely be filled with other non-whites, if merit alone was used. The rise in caucasian acceptance would be 2%. The additional reprocussion of this wouldn't be measurable, but would almost certainly lead to discouraging blacks and hispanics from applying leading to even fewer enrollments in the future beyond the immediate 66 and 50% drops.

http://press.princeton.edu/titles/6374.html. Spark notes: Students of all races report a higher satisfaction with their education after graduation in schools where affirmative action is a strong selecting forces. Additionally, while it is a fact that affirmative action does bring in blacks and hispanics who generally perform behind the mean while in the schools; these minorities have much higher success rates (in all three metrics of graduate/post-graudate degrees, number of companies chaired, and number of x-millionaires) than their white and asian counterparts after graduation. If nothing else, they are making more of their education than their melanin-sparse fellow students are.

Of note: there were plenty of books (I say books because idk if any of them were based on studies. I at least know the one book I cited was) in the 90s that railed against the big glaring weakness of affirmative action: that the black and hispanic students continue to do less well in the university. But its why I threw up the book from the deans of princeton and harvard, which points out that they find greater success than other racial/ethnic groups after graduation despite having the lower GPA at graduation. There are other arguments, and im sure plenty of them are valid. I just wanted to point out that the main one i've heard is addressed.

 

[drctother]

Hey guys, as it is pretty well known, its significantly easier to get into M.D. schools if you are any type of minority: native american, latino, black, etc.

I was curious, do D.O. schools also have a sizable margin of preference for some races over others too, or is it more fair?

Thanks guys!

 

[SSVicious]

But its why I threw up the book from the deans of princeton and harvard, which points out that they find greater success than other racial/ethnic groups after graduation despite having the lower GPA at graduation. There are other arguments, and im sure plenty of them are valid. I just wanted to point out that the main one i've heard is addressed.

I actually registered (after simply lurking for quite a long time) because I am a staunch opponent of Affirmative Action.

The affirmative action recipients sometimes end up more successful even with a lower GPA at graduation because AA continues even after graduation.

AA gets someone with a lower GPA into a college that they most likely cannot handle (because they are not intelligent enough or they were never prepared enough.

That person (if he does graduate at all) graduates with a lower GPA than the non-AA people at the school. He then applies to medical school.

AA gets this person into a medical school that is beyond his/her ability. This person then graduates with a lower GPA than his peers at the med school.

AA then gets this person a good job, that a non-AA applicant could not have gotten at that GPA level.

AA starts early and keeps AA-recipients from ever operating at the level that they are most qualified for. They are always competing with people who are smarter than they are.

I wish I could find an article that I used to have on my computer. It showed that blacks were unhappy because they almost never became senior partners at law firms. It was because of the process I just outlined, which resulted in the prestigious law firms hiring blacks that simply could not handle the job at that level, and thus quit the job because they could not succeed.

Obviously the field of law is not medicine, but I bring it up as an example of another profession that is closely related (ie. going to professional school after college, then entering a certain specific profession).

Affirmative action is not fair to it's recipients or those who are not recipients.

[EDIT]

And people who realize that AA will be there for them don't have to try as hard, they have nothing to motivate them. They don't need that 3.8 for med school, because they only need a 3.2. Well, that is a huge difference. (And check out the MD acceptance rates for minorities and you will see that a 3.2 has a MUCH higher chance of getting into medical school than a white or Asian student with similar stats.

 

[kjamess]

I actually registered (after simply lurking for quite a long time) because I am a staunch opponent of Affirmative Action.

The affirmative action recipients sometimes end up more successful even with a lower GPA at graduation because AA continues even after graduation.

AA gets someone with a lower GPA into a college that they most likely cannot handle (because they are not intelligent enough or they were never prepared enough.

That person (if he does graduate at all) graduates with a lower GPA than the non-AA people at the school. He then applies to medical school.

AA gets this person into a medical school that is beyond his/her ability. This person then graduates with a lower GPA than his peers at the med school.

AA then gets this person a good job, that a non-AA applicant could not have gotten at that GPA level.

AA starts early and keeps AA-recipients from ever operating at the level that they are most qualified for. They are always competing with people who are smarter than they are.

I wish I could find an article that I used to have on my computer. It showed that blacks were unhappy because they almost never became senior partners at law firms. It was because of the process I just outlined, which resulted in the prestigious law firms hiring blacks that simply could not handle the job at that level, and thus quit the job because they could not succeed.

Obviously the field of law is not medicine, but I bring it up as an example of another profession that is closely related (ie. going to professional school after college, then entering a certain specific profession).

Affirmative action is not fair to it's recipients or those who are not recipients.

[EDIT]

And people who realize that AA will be there for them don't have to try as hard, they have nothing to motivate them. They don't need that 3.8 for med school, because they only need a 3.2. Well, that is a huge difference. (And check out the MD acceptance rates for minorities and you will see that a 3.2 has a MUCH higher chance of getting into medical school than a white or Asian student with similar stats.

quite a few leaps you made there champ.

 

[SSVicious]

quite a few leaps you made there champ.

Mind expounding? It was pretty simple logic, I thought. Premise 1 leads to Premise 2, leads to Premise 3 and so on. I also backed up the GPA information with AMCAS data... champ.

 

[DocEspana]

You also seem to ignore the fact that blacks + hispanics in medical school = 14% of all students. So 86% of people are not effected by affirmative action. as stated before, without AA that 14% would be 4.6%. And doing that would only raise the white enrollment by 2% (the other 8% rise would be almost entirely asian ethnicities)

As an additional thought: If you think that 4.6% of physicians should come from backgrounds that represent 30% of the US population (and rising) you are strongly underselling the importance patients place on cultural familiarity. Thats too high of a percent relying on too few docs. I rotate in an overwhelmingly black and hispanic area and I'm almost as white as the albino kid from powder. Thank god I speak spanish, because I can see that the black population prefers the black students and residents (not that it stops me, but its a large noted difference in comfort), so I can at least get along well with the hispanic population.

 

[SSVicious]

You also seem to ignore the fact that blacks + hispanics in medical school = 14% of all students. So 86% of people are not effected by affirmative action. as stated before, without AA that 14% would be 4.6%. And doing that would only raise the white enrollment by 2% (the other 8% rise would be almost entirely asian ethnicities).

I DO NOT ignore the fact that blacks and hispanics make up 14% of all students.

And I don't care that there would only be a 2% increase in white enrollment. Why would I care? I believe that Asians would benefit more. And they deserve it. If they have higher scores, they deserve it more. If whites got higher scores then THEY would deserve it. And if blacks got higher scores, THEY would deserve it.

I just want the best doc for the job. If it's a black person, fine. If it's a white person, fine. If it's a person that may have receive AA treatment and they aren't the best person for the job... I'm worried about the medical care I'm receiving.

I'm not saying that anyone should be scared if their doc is a minority... but I AM saying that you don't know if that person is the best person that could be helping you, and that SHOULD worry people. That isn't the fault of the minority, it is the fault of AA itself.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I DO NOT ignore the fact that blacks and hispanics make up 14% of all students.

And I don't care that there would only be a 2% increase in white enrollment. Why would I care? I believe that Asians would benefit more. And they deserve it. If they have higher scores, they deserve it more. If whites got higher scores then THEY would deserve it. And if blacks got higher scores, THEY would deserve it.

I just want the best doc for the job. If it's a black person, fine. If it's a white person, fine. If it's a person that may have receive AA treatment and they aren't the best person for the job... I'm worried about the medical care I'm receiving.

I'm not saying that anyone should be scared if their doc is a minority... but I AM saying that you don't know if that person is the best person that could be helping you, and that SHOULD worry people. That isn't the fault of the minority, it is the fault of AA itself.

If your doctor got through medical school then s(he)'s probably qualified. Anyways, it's not just numbers which matter, a lot of other factors go into this mix and what not. But really your entire argument is really laughable and you're just framing things in a negative light and trying to state that the care that AA's give is of lesser quality as they have on average lower scores.

 

[Postal]

I DO NOT ignore the fact that blacks and hispanics make up 14% of all students.

And I don't care that there would only be a 2% increase in white enrollment. Why would I care? I believe that Asians would benefit more. And they deserve it. If they have higher scores, they deserve it more. If whites got higher scores then THEY would deserve it. And if blacks got higher scores, THEY would deserve it.

I just want the best doc for the job. If it's a black person, fine. If it's a white person, fine. If it's a person that may have receive AA treatment and they aren't the best person for the job... I'm worried about the medical care I'm receiving.

I'm not saying that anyone should be scared if their doc is a minority... but I AM saying that you don't know if that person is the best person that could be helping you, and that SHOULD worry people. That isn't the fault of the minority, it is the fault of AA itself.

you DO realize that not every patient thinks like you? Being a doctor means being in a position where you need to get your patients to trust you . I'm sorry but people tend to trust people who look, talk, and act like them. Is that the most logical thing...no.... but it's reality. Patients have a right to have access to physicians they feel they can relate to. And that's what affirmative action is for.

 

[Iswhatis]

you DO realize that not every patient thinks like you? Being a doctor means being in a position where you need to get your patients to trust you . I'm sorry but people tend to trust people who look, talk, and act like them. Is that the most logical thing...no.... but it's reality. Patients have a right to have access to physicians they feel they can relate to. And that's what affirmative action is for.

Do you really believe that a Princeton AA graduate is going to be in the trenches treating their "look alikes" (as you put it)? You speak of reality, but I'm not sure you've grasped it yourself.

DocE, thanks for the links. I'll read them tomorrow. I'm sure you're on the edge of your seat waiting for my feedback...

 

[fastlane]

If your doctor got through medical school then s(he)'s probably qualified.

That is not even a good argument. You can be in medical school barely passing and not remember a lot of what you learned and not really know how to incorporate it into real-life situations but still end up with an M.D. degree.

Anyways, it's not just numbers which matter, a lot of other factors go into this mix and what not.

Are you kidding? Numbers do matter. That is why medical schools take GPA and MCAT scores into consideration. It is a good indicator of how intelligent/dedicated/"fit to be a doctor" an idividual is. Otherwise, they might as well just open their doors to anyone and everyone.

you DO realize that not every patient thinks like you? Being a doctor means being in a position where you need to get your patients to trust you . I'm sorry but people tend to trust people who look, talk, and act like them. Is that the most logical thing...no.... but it's reality.

It is the most logical thing. That is without a doubt. Of course you would want to identify with a doctor that speaks the same language as you and you can trust.

But I wonder... if the patients actually knew that their minority doctor got into medical school BECAUSE they were black/latino/native american etc but NOT BECAUSE they were smart/intelligent/dedicated to the profession, would that patient still go to their minority doctor who might be less qualified as a person to be a doctor compared to a white/asian counterpart?

 

[guydudcl371]

Sounds like you got your information from the media. I can tell you, without question (having worked for a major public institution's admissions department who uses AA), that not all schools use AA in this way. This school's philosophy is that background plays a role in admissions but they never taken a less qualified student over a more qualified one. We easily forget that overcoming ****ty school systems and racial discrimination to still pull off a 3.5 tells a lot more about an applicant than someone from a very wealthy neighborhood with a 3.6 (or hell, even a 3.8). One's GPA is a component of helping decide whether one is qualified or not, but SOME schools do look more large picture than your breakdown is assuming...

I actually registered (after simply lurking for quite a long time) because I am a staunch opponent of Affirmative Action.

The affirmative action recipients sometimes end up more successful even with a lower GPA at graduation because AA continues even after graduation.

AA gets someone with a lower GPA into a college that they most likely cannot handle (because they are not intelligent enough or they were never prepared enough.

That person (if he does graduate at all) graduates with a lower GPA than the non-AA people at the school. He then applies to medical school.

AA gets this person into a medical school that is beyond his/her ability. This person then graduates with a lower GPA than his peers at the med school.

AA then gets this person a good job, that a non-AA applicant could not have gotten at that GPA level.

AA starts early and keeps AA-recipients from ever operating at the level that they are most qualified for. They are always competing with people who are smarter than they are.

I wish I could find an article that I used to have on my computer. It showed that blacks were unhappy because they almost never became senior partners at law firms. It was because of the process I just outlined, which resulted in the prestigious law firms hiring blacks that simply could not handle the job at that level, and thus quit the job because they could not succeed.

Obviously the field of law is not medicine, but I bring it up as an example of another profession that is closely related (ie. going to professional school after college, then entering a certain specific profession).

Affirmative action is not fair to it's recipients or those who are not recipients.

[EDIT]

And people who realize that AA will be there for them don't have to try as hard, they have nothing to motivate them. They don't need that 3.8 for med school, because they only need a 3.2. Well, that is a huge difference. (And check out the MD acceptance rates for minorities and you will see that a 3.2 has a MUCH higher chance of getting into medical school than a white or Asian student with similar stats.

 

[fastlane]

We easily forget that overcoming ****ty school systems and racial discrimination to still pull off a 3.5 tells a lot more about an applicant than someone from a very wealthy neighborhood with a 3.6 (or hell, even a 3.8).

Why would you assume blacks and latinos come from ****ty school systems with racial discrimination? You have no basis for that accusation

 

[Telekinesis]

I actually registered (after simply lurking for quite a long time) because I am a staunch opponent of Affirmative Action.

The affirmative action recipients sometimes end up more successful even with a lower GPA at graduation because AA continues even after graduation.

AA gets someone with a lower GPA into a college that they most likely cannot handle (because they are not intelligent enough or they were never prepared enough.

That person (if he does graduate at all) graduates with a lower GPA than the non-AA people at the school. He then applies to medical school.

AA gets this person into a medical school that is beyond his/her ability. This person then graduates with a lower GPA than his peers at the med school.

AA then gets this person a good job, that a non-AA applicant could not have gotten at that GPA level.

AA starts early and keeps AA-recipients from ever operating at the level that they are most qualified for. They are always competing with people who are smarter than they are.

I wish I could find an article that I used to have on my computer. It showed that blacks were unhappy because they almost never became senior partners at law firms. It was because of the process I just outlined, which resulted in the prestigious law firms hiring blacks that simply could not handle the job at that level, and thus quit the job because they could not succeed.

Obviously the field of law is not medicine, but I bring it up as an example of another profession that is closely related (ie. going to professional school after college, then entering a certain specific profession).

Affirmative action is not fair to it's recipients or those who are not recipients.

[EDIT]

And people who realize that AA will be there for them don't have to try as hard, they have nothing to motivate them. They don't need that 3.8 for med school, because they only need a 3.2. Well, that is a huge difference. (And check out the MD acceptance rates for minorities and you will see that a 3.2 has a MUCH higher chance of getting into medical school than a white or Asian student with similar stats.

I think you are forgetting that board scores too and those aren't subject to affirmative action. If a person graduates med school you can rest easy knowing that they passed their board exams and are licensed to practice medicine. Board exams and the like are totally based on merit. Your entire argument is based on sensationalism and fear mongering. Please become more educated in the topic at hand before you begin your debate.

 

[fastlane]

Board exams and the like are totally based on merit.

Please become more educated in the topic at hand before you begin your debate.

Yeah, board exams are on merit.

But residencies still take an applicant's race into account. Residency programs use affirmative action in their admissions criteria.

The whole system is ****ed.

Do your own research.

 

[Telekinesis]

Yeah, board exams are on merit.

But residencies still take an applicant's race into account. Residency programs use affirmative action in their admissions criteria.

The whole system is ****ed.

Do your own research.

Coming from a pre-med that statement has no merit.

As a matter of fact take into account this thread before you start trolling.

http://206.82.221.135/showthread.php?t=810363

 

[fastlane]

Coming from a pre-med that statement has no merit.

As a matter of fact take into account this thread before you start trolling.

http://206.82.221.135/showthread.php?t=810363

Well that is what I gathered from research, which anyone could do. Oh well, its not like talking about affirmative action on forums is going to change it. Might as well just take it as it is and live with it!

I just wanted to know if affirmative action applied to D.O. schools as well. Which apparently it does!

Edit: You're a pre-med too. Your statements have no merit too then? lol

 

[Telekinesis]

Well that is what I gathered from research, which anyone could do. Oh well, its not like talking about affirmative action on forums is going to change it. Might as well just take it as it is and live with it!

Sorry for sounding harsh. I just hate when people bash URMs and they like when URMs only take like 5 seats in a class of 100.

 

[fastlane]

Sorry for sounding harsh. I just hate when people bash URMs and they like when URMs only take like 5 seats in a class of 100.

Well if there was no affirmative action, there would be no bashing because all med school applicants would be on the same playing field. But with your advantages will come haters

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

That is not even a good argument. You can be in medical school barely passing and not remember a lot of what you learned and not really know how to incorporate it into real-life situations but still end up with an M.D. degree.

And this is a good argument? You have absolutely no idea of medical education if you truly think this, just look up usmle/comlex questions, they are all practically/clinically orientated and then residency is all about real life.

Are you kidding? Numbers do matter. That is why medical schools take GPA and MCAT scores into consideration. It is a good indicator of how intelligent/dedicated/"fit to be a doctor" an idividual is. Otherwise, they might as well just open their doors to anyone and everyone.

Numbers aren't the only thing that matter. Try to get into a school with no EC's or research or with a crap personality with 0 bedside manner. You simply will not be able even if you have a 3.7/36. And even then there are plenty of high stat people who are going to make horrible doctors for an arrangement of reasons. So it is not all about numbers.

In fact a very highly regarded Adcom at a top 20 "LizzyM', has once stated that her school receives enough 4.0/38+ to fill their entire class. Her school however considers other things like EC's and what makes you different and what you can contribute to their school.


It is the most logical thing. That is without a doubt. Of course you would want to identify with a doctor that speaks the same language as you and you can trust.


But I wonder... if the patients actually knew that their minority doctor got into medical school BECAUSE they were black/latino/native american etc but NOT BECAUSE they were smart/intelligent/dedicated to the profession, would that patient still go to their minority doctor who might be less qualified as a person to be a doctor compared to a white/asian counterpart?

Just who do you think you are to judge medically licensed doctors? Honestly, I couldn't care if they had low stats, if they passed the USMLE or COMLEX and got through residency then they are fit doctors.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Why would you assume blacks and latinos come from ****ty school systems with racial discrimination? You have no basis for that accusation

Have you been living under a rock? Seriously... are you from lalalaland? Look up the freak'n statistics! Oh, and applicants from disadvantaged backgrounds ( White people included) are also given higher regard and can get in with lower stats.

I guess you'll start talking about how people from disadvantaged backgrounds are unfit for medicine and how other applicants with higher stats should be admitted instead.

Oh poo, I've gotten trolled.

 

[Telekinesis]

Well if there was no affirmative action, there would be no bashing because all med school applicants would be on the same playing field. But with your advantages will come haters

But no one is on the same playing field. You have rich kids whose parents contribute entire wings to hospitals and you have kids whose parents can't even contribute to their grocery bill. Step off your high horse for a second and take a look around before you make senseless accusations.

 

[Kevin Baker]

For anyone interested in the topic of affirmative action and its real world consequences, both good and bad, just take a look at California. There was a time when 42% of black americans entering the UC system dropped out. But there was also a time when more than 3-5% of UC Berkeley students came from a black American background. Similar stats hold true for Latino students, who are also heavily underrepresented at the 'top' UCs. This isn't the easiest debate but there's no reason to drum up old military studies or fear monger and judge qualified doctors because they may have taken a spot they didn't qualify for based on merit alone. Take a look at the Golden State pre and post prop 209, and see which you like better. Personally, I think affirmative action is terrible at the undergrad level and a 42% drop out rate is criminal. Yet in med school, where the drop out rate is in the single digits, that's not so bad (though I am still ardently oppose to affirmative action in every way, shape, and form, but I see the argument and its merits).

As to the OP's question, I don't believe there is much of an advantage given to URM applicants, apart from potential scholarships.

 

[Postal]

[

But I wonder... if the patients actually knew that their minority doctor got into medical school BECAUSE they were black/latino/native american etc but NOT BECAUSE they were smart/intelligent/dedicated to the profession, would that patient still go to their minority doctor who might be less qualified as a person to be a doctor compared to a white/asian counterpart?

Just because someone is a minority doesn't mean they got into medical school just because of their minority status. No one gets admitted to medical school unless the admissions committee feels that that student has the potential to become a qualified, compassionate physician. Many things matter besides academic performance, like leadership, altruism, interest in serving others, communication skills, and other noncognitive skills. And I'm sorry if it pisses you guys off, but a selection of students attuned to cultural factors counts too.

Maybe Affirmative Action isn't the best way to do it...but the physician workforce needs to be as diverse as the population it serves

 

[Postal]

i just hate when people bash urms and the like when urms only take like 5 seats in a class of 100.

+1000

 

[SSVicious]

+1000

Omg... and that guy only murdered 5 people, but he could have murdered 100.

Yeah. 5 still matters.

 

[SSVicious]

[


Just because someone is a minority doesn't mean they got into medical school just because of their minority status. No one gets admitted to medical school unless the admissions committee feels that that student has the potential to become a qualified, compassionate physician. Many things matter besides academic performance, like leadership, altruism, interest in serving others, communication skills, and other noncognitive skills. And I'm sorry if it pisses you guys off, but a selection of students attuned to cultural factors counts too.

Maybe Affirmative Action isn't the best way to do it...but the physician workforce needs to be as diverse as the population it serves

It's true that just because some is a minority it doesn't mean they got into medical school because of AA.

The logical thing is... nobody knows if they did or not (except the ad coms). So it is kind of scary for patients (who don't know this person on an individual level).

So cultural factors matter? Maybe a white doctor is the best to serve these black patients. Let the black die because of cultural factors? That's sick, man. Or hell, maybe the black is the best doctor for that white man? Let the white die because of cultural factors?

The best doctor is the smartest doctor, regardless of color.

 

[SSVicious]

you DO realize that not every patient thinks like you? Being a doctor means being in a position where you need to get your patients to trust you . I'm sorry but people tend to trust people who look, talk, and act like them. Is that the most logical thing...no.... but it's reality. Patients have a right to have access to physicians they feel they can relate to. And that's what affirmative action is for.

Well, I hope you tell that to the patient that dies because he had an inferior doctor. At least the patient had someone he could relate to!

Oh... YOU CAN'T TELL HIM THAT BECAUSE HE'S DEAD.

 

[TriagePreMed]

lol the good ol' URM fight. Now URM = murderers according to SSVicious. Not only that, but he also assures that they will let patients die because they are all incompetent. I hope SSVicious also agrees that every student with a 4.0/40+ MCAT deserves a medical school spot before he does. It's not as if we take into account that a person's capacity to succeed as a physician goes beyond numbers.

Please do us a favor SSVicious and don't accept any offer from a medical school unless they can assure you that they will take every single applicant with higher numbers than you.

 

[SSVicious]

lol the good ol' URM fight. Now URM = murderers according to SSVicious. Not only that, but he also assures that they will let patients die because they are all incompetent. I hope SSVicious also agrees that every student with a 4.0/40+ MCAT deserves a medical school spot before he does. It's not as if we take into account that a person's capacity to succeed as a physician goes beyond numbers.

Please do us a favor SSVicious and don't accept any offer from a medical school unless they can assure you that they will take every single applicant with higher numbers than you.

Yes, mischaracterize what i say. I was showing that poster that "small" statistics matter.

And i never said all uRMs are incompetent. I said there is no way to know if someone got AA and if they did well in med school because of it.

You are one step away from calling me a racist. I dont like that. I said the most qualified deserves the job, so shuffle off, dude.

 

[TriagePreMed]

I hope a mod that's here will ban SSVicious. It's pretty easy by his name that the "SS" derives from Nazism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzstaffel he's just a racist troll here. His post count confirms that. Probably a regular user here that can't spout his opinion under his real handle.

 

[SSVicious]

I hope a mod that's here will ban SSVicious. It's pretty easy by his name that the "SS" derives from Nazism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzstaffel he's just a racist troll here. His post count confirms that. Probably a regular user here that can't spout his opinion under his real handle.

Actually they are my initials. I guess anyone who doesnt like AA is a nazi right? Dude, wtf is wrong with you?

 

[SSVicious]

Do you hate Whites and Asians because you support AA? Racist.

Oh, and my post count comfirms I'm a racist troll? Learn logic, dude. You just dont agree with my politics so I'm racist.

I guess you are the reason black patients need black doctors. You can't handle those that are differerent from you.

 

[DocEspana]

Just wanted to note that the single most statistically significant value in both medical school GPA and board pass rate is....

If you have a direct relative who is also a physician. MUCH more correlation than race, and we know race does actually have a statistically significant correlation to GPA (but not board pass rate).

So why are we not railing against allowing people to buy a research floor and get their son into school, or people who were buddies with the dean easing the way for her daughter to get in? This is much more likely to "kill patients" than blacks and latinos having culture count as a tiebreaker. I'm also pretty sure the number of people with a sibling or parent who is a physician far outnumbers the number of URMs. I know it does at my school and my school is among the schools with the highest URM representation in america.

 

[DocEspana]

Also: just want to make sure we're all on the same wavelength here.... we are all in agreement that when we say we want the best from our "physician" we mean our general practitioner, primary care physician, or pediatrician, right? We're not referring to our nuclear therapy radiologist, or our onychial melanoma specialist oncologist.

Cause lets be honest here: unless your PCP works out of the Mayo Clinic or Columbia-Presbyterian, you're going to the guy who (in general) passed his/her boards by a small margin. The people who barely get out of medical school are the ones who are your lifelong PCPs. There is nothing wrong with that, i fully believe that the test measures your qualifications for medicine. Pass: you're qualified. Period. End of story. But if you're going to say that those who barely pass are a risk to human life; I've got news for you. More likely than not, all the doctors you deal with on a day-to-day basis fall into that "cut it close" realm.

Being close to 188 and/or 400 is colorblind.

 

[Telekinesis]

Omg... and that guy only murdered 5 people, but he could have murdered 100.

Yeah. 5 still matters.

Wow you are really reaching with this one. And you do know AAction is not URM right? For example for all intents and purposes an Asian person will not qualify as a minority in Med School Admissions. Also to address another point, as DocEspana said the PCP that you are saying didn't just kill their board exams. Who cares how someone got in. Some people are physicians' kids, some know someone on the AdCom. Some have wealthy parents that substantial amounts of money. Is that really any different that AAction? At the end of the day they all have to pass their boards and complete a residency. So stop your bitching and moaning and go study.

 

[SSVicious]

Wow you are really reaching with this one. And you do know AAction is not URM right? For example for all intents and purposes an Asian person will not qualify as a minority in Med School Admissions. Also to address another point, as DocEspana said the PCP that you are saying didn't just kill their board exams. Who cares how someone got in. Some people are physicians' kids, some know someone on the AdCom. Some have wealthy parents that substantial amounts of money. Is that really any different that AAction? At the end of the day they all have to pass their boards and complete a residency. So stop your bitching and moaning and go study.

I am not reaching. What I'm saying is, even small statistics matter. Here's another analogy. 5 black men are discriminated against. 95 are not. Do you want to do anything to stop the discrimination against those 5 black men, or should we all stop whining because it's ONLY five black men who are being discriminated against?

And people should care why someone got in. I can't believe you are making that argument. Nepotism should not get someone into medical school. The ONLY thing that should get someone into medical school is proving that you have more merit than another guy. There aren't enough spots for everyone, it's called a COMPETITION. And frankly, being a URM or socioeconomically disadvantaged person is an intangible.

You just assume that they were hurt by those statuses, but who really knows. But you can see from research experience, GPA, MCAT, volunteering, etc, that someone is more likely worthy. And I say more likely because we are back to statistics. Ad coms need to make their best educated guess as to who is a good fit for a medical school. That requires using tangible items to rank people.

And don't tell me to stop my "bitching and moaning", why the hell are you so rude? No one is trying to shut you up for having a different opinion. If you don't want disagreement with YOUR opinion, don't give YOUR opinion.

I can't believe I'm the big bad guy here for wanting merit-based admissions.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Like I said above, medical schools consider a lot of things when they look at an applicant, not just numbers alone. So fundamentally your entire argument is that the guy with the higher stats is always the best, well guess what? People with 4.0/38+ only get accepted ( 93% of the time). Why? Because it's not just about numbers, a lot of other things go into consideration, because a guy with a 3.9/35 is not always going to make the best physician. There are things which cannot be quanitifed and it's time we realize that life experiences do matter and are a prime factor in for medical school consideration. Especially in DO schools where you have applicants who are extremely diverse and come from many backgrounds and might not have the highest gpa or mcat.

 

[guydudcl371]

bahahaha. Called this The racism on SDN is alive again!

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

bahahaha. Called this The racism on SDN is alive again!

And this apparently makes you happy?

 

[guydudcl371]

Why would you assume blacks and latinos come from ****ty school systems with racial discrimination? You have no basis for that accusation

Ok....congrats on over-analyzing/misinterpreting what I wrote. While not all Black and Latino individuals do, they are significantly more likely to (take a sociology class...). Because of RACIAL discrimination they are also more likely to be impoverished. Simple social science here folks. I was not saying that every person of color has to overcome massive obstacles to get to college, nor am I saying that no white people do. However, you cannot deny the general trends. The "exceptions to the rule" however are why things like personal statements are used, so that admissions committees can look for people who do not fit in with the general trends/statistics.

I'm waiting for someone on here to say that white people are the victims of "reverse racism" or that racism doesn't exist anymore...anyone wanna stoop to that level of naivete?

 

[guydudcl371]

And this apparently makes you happy?

Of course not...just not surprised...these posts are incredibly predictable...take a breather...