DO disadvantages

[DarkHorizon]

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rotated with a few yakima guys gunning for ortho.. good guys and bright. I guess one decided to go OB/gyn after his audition rotations (still dont quite understand what happened) and the other matched henry ford I think. They had good things to say about Yakima, hope its true???

Just wanted to clear up, Henry Ford took three interns this year, one from MSU, one from CCOM, and one from Nova.

I rotated with a couple of guys from Yakima as well, sharp guys, not sure where they ended up.

 

[The kitchen sink]

I have a third year elective scheduled for this upcoming June as a matter of fact. No barriers whatsoever, and its at an academic institution outside of NYCOMEC. Get your facts straight before posting such baloney.

That one elective you have in June is the only one offered by NYCOM during third year, if you reread my posts properly you will see that I did infact state that they offer only one elective during third year. Get your head on straight before you reply to my posts with that nonsense.

 

[The kitchen sink]

That one elective you have in June is the only one offered by NYCOM during third year, if you reread my posts properly you will see that I did infact state that they offer only one elective during third year. Get your head on straight before you reply to my posts with that nonsense.

Actually, my bad i take that whole previous post back

Let me clarify what i meant to say. Nycom offers one 3rd elective in June during which many of our students want to take Step 2 during so some students cant really enjoy it. No electives offered at all until June though. Would have like some before that.

 

[JGimpel]

Seems that a potential April Fools troll has actually been turned around into something productive. Strong work guys!

3rd year rotations will be wherever your school puts you. If your DO school only has community programs it rotates you through, that also means that you are one-on-one with a small group of physicians and, if they know you can handle it, first-assists in many procedures.

The bad part about going to an academic hospital is that you are behind the 4th year /sub-I's /Interns/ Residents/ Fellows for whatever scraps of cases that are left and rarely get to look at more than the shins of a patient during surgery, only mixing the liquids for central lines, intubating on a super-easy patient that gives you less experience than working on the dummies in your skills labs, etc.

4th year elective rotations at competitive centers or in the higher-end specialties will often require that you have many or all of your 3rd year electives completed before you even can rotate there. They'd rather you get all the rookie mistakes done on someone elses dime; can't blame them for that. In addition, the more competitive programs will want to see your grades/board scores before they let you rotate there; that logic is that there is no point in you taking a popular audition spot if you'd never be competitive for residency there. This is also key if you're requesting sub-I privileges before you even show up there. If you're just passing through, you'll be evaluated as a 4th year and it's some kind of pass/fail, gentleman's B and you're done. If you are auditioning and they're comfortable with you, you'll be evaluated as an Intern/Auditioning med student/Senior Student responsible for insuring that the other students more junior than you are staying busy and helpful for that month and you really earn your title.

Once you're applying for residency, act as if you are working hard to be that one in several hundred that gets into one of the ROAD specialties, DO or MD, pay the extra money to apply to MD and DO spots as well as at least one other less competitive specialty and make sure you have all of your priorities set and bullet-proof before starting any of the above and you might be surprised at your results.

Optho is a separate match and the seniors that even get into this system are a self-selecting group with 230+ Step 1s, killer letters from audition rotations and other strong elements that probably still carry over from med school applications. Know what you're up against before you select this as a viable specialty.

I wish I knew where Yakima was. Let's see what FREIDA says is possible in that state...

 

[Textbookversion]

Once you're applying for residency, act as if you are working hard to be that one in several hundred that gets into one of the ROAD specialties, DO or MD, pay the extra money to apply to MD and DO spots as well as at least one other less competitive specialty and make sure you have all of your priorities set and bullet-proof before starting any of the above and you might be surprised at your results.

The "R" and "A" in road are not hard to match into... not much to write home about. What was it like 98% of US Seniors apply rads last year matched? Basically if you have a pulse you'll match somewhere. Same is true of anesthesia.

 

[235009]

The bad part about going to an academic hospital is that you are behind the 4th year /sub-I's /Interns/ Residents/ Fellows for whatever scraps of cases that are left and rarely get to look at more than the shins of a patient during surgery, only mixing the liquids for central lines, intubating on a super-easy patient that gives you less experience than working on the dummies in your skills labs, etc.

1. 3rd year med students aren't on par with interns/residents/fellows therefore the latter can't steal anything from the former. the fact that they all exists (and are constantly around) opens up more opportunities that someone will have some time to teach you something vs. an attending who may not even care that you exist. as a third year you know absolutely nothing and any of those people can teach you something useful.

2. at my med school's univ hospital (and i'm assuming many others) the learning experience of 3rd year med students is more important than that of 4th years and sub-Is.

3. while being first assist during surgeries is cool what isn't cool is seeing the same appy/chole day in and day out. university hospitals have a diversity of cases, including many rare cases, that you won't find at your typical community hospital. it's all about variety ...as a med student you're trying to expand your knowledge base not learning to be a scrub nurse.

4. community hospitals tend to transfer patients out when the case gets too complicated. at a university hospital you're basically at the end of the line. patients will come from all over your catchment area if they have something that other doctors have failed to diagnose as well. again, it all comes down to variety! sure, you might have lots of direct access to an attending at a community hospital but what good is that if you're seeing the same 5 cases over and over? Also is that attending really well up-to-date on the latest studies and can he/she really teach as well as one who's been doing this for a living and takes it seriously?

Once you're applying for residency, act as if you are working hard to be that one in several hundred that gets into one of the ROAD specialties

or you can be one of 100+ people who scrambled into an ACGME rads or anesthesia spot.

 

[3bamboo]

Just to chime in, it definitely is possible to do some good academic work as a DO.
There is a associate professor kidney specialist at UCSF who graduated from PCOM!

 

[cliquesh]

The "R" and "A" in road are not hard to match into... not much to write home about. What was it like 98% of US Seniors apply rads last year matched? Basically if you have a pulse you'll match somewhere. Same is true of anesthesia.

I'd say if you have a 230+ and a pulse you'll match somewhere for radiology and a 220+ for anesthesia.

 

[Orthojoe]

ACGME rad 65 unmatched spots and gas had 62. My buddy SOAPed into michigan gas program after not matching gen surg.

 

[cliquesh]

ACGME rad 65 unmatched spots and gas had 62. My buddy SOAPed into michigan gas program after not matching gen surg.

Univ of Michigan: Ann arbor?

 

[as1212559]

So you're saying there's a chance!

Pre-osteo succinctly summarized. Well done.

 

[Orthojoe]

university of michigan -four main core hospitals he rotates through-- University Hospital, C.S. Mott Children's Hospital, Holden/Women's Hospital, and The Cardio-Vascular Center.

He didnt match gen surg,, put out feelers for prelim (huge numbers of prelim matches this year) and got no response, for the heck of it he looked at anesthesia, got 4 responses and eventually Michigan picked him up.

When you look at the data huge number of prelims without designated specialties for PGY-2 on. Seems gas and rad had lower numbers this year. However it has been noted that both have had an increase in approved residency sites.

 

[IlDestriero]

My understanding was that there was not a significant increase in approved residency sites for anesthesia, but the all in rule made more spots available for the match. They represent residency spots that were previously held back for out of the match applicants.
There's a lot of misinformation out there about anesthesia training. I would guess rads is the same.

 

[Orthojoe]

My understanding was that there was not a significant increase in approved residency sites for anesthesia, but the all in rule made more spots available for the match. They represent residency spots that were previously held back for out of the match applicants.
There's a lot of misinformation out there about anesthesia training. I would guess rads is the same.

cool! thanks for the clarification. Some transparency for us lowly students trying to match would be nice 🙂
glad its over for me.

appreciate it

 

[LovelyBRass]

The "R" and "A" in road are not hard to match into... not much to write home about. What was it like 98% of US Seniors apply rads last year matched? Basically if you have a pulse you'll match somewhere. Same is true of anesthesia.

im so glad other people see this too! definitely getting tired of the bs that medicine is easy (what? im biased) and we should fawn over the 30 rads/gas matches

 

[Orthojoe]

I think the smartest people should be IM doctors.. good solid internal medicine physicians would fix a lot of the healthcare problems.. they shouldn't be turf managers punting everyone to specialists but unfortunately the system has driven them that direction.

It just wasn't for me. I felt like i was getting no where with patients and kept spinning my wheels waiting for the specialist to give the go ahead. heck IM docs can manage simple a-fib, they can read culture results and pick the best antibiotic just like an ID guy. etc, etc... no need to consult until the problem requires a specialist (surgical, uncontrolled symptoms, hemodynamically unstable, unknown source).

The legality system drives them into the ground and it seems they become the discharge jockies taking the "dirty" work from the specialists. I feel for my IM buddies and will do my best to treat them with the respect they deserve. healthcare reform should start with the internal medicine docs.... better pay, more say and more respect.. hospitals should be begging for top notch IM who can manage and diagnose fabulously instead of consulting every specialist around adding 1-2 days to their hospital stay and gobs of procedures (every nephro guy consulted on my critical care did renal US, there was no need since we knew they were in acute kidney injury due to an ischemic event. every US found a renal cyst that then required CT for better diagnosing.. thats all they did while the IM critical care docs kept the pressors up and naturally the crt normalized).. the money just isnt there though.

Maybe it was just the two hospitals I rotated through,..??? the VA is the prime example.

 

[Silent Cool]

Hi guys,

I wanted to get more insight regarding the disadvantages of going to DO school in terms of getting a residency/fellowship. Many DOs have stated that your options are definitely more limited. Is that true? If so, I would like to know how much limited based on your experience.

You will pay top dollar for second-rate opportunities (and fewer of them) and work just as hard as MD students. In a nutshell.

(disclaimer: I attend a DO school. Just bein' real).

 

[Pons Asinorum]

You will pay top dollar for second-rate opportunities (and fewer of them) and work just as hard as MD students. In a nutshell.

(disclaimer: I attend a DO school. Just bein' real).

Somebody needs to write a script that auto-posts this response to the monthly new "MD vs DO" (or similar such) thread. Would save all parties much time. This is some uncut, distilled truth right here. (Maybe) not true for the individual, but very true for the aggregate.

 

[MrBeauregard]

You will pay top dollar for second-rate opportunities (and fewer of them) and work just as hard as MD students. In a nutshell.

(disclaimer: I attend a DO school. Just bein' real).

Somebody needs to write a script that auto-posts this response to the monthly new "MD vs DO" (or similar such) thread. Would save all parties much time. This is some uncut, distilled truth right here. (Maybe) not true for the individual, but very true for the aggregate.

I'll second both of the above.

I attend a DO school and I work my ass off only to be told that the fact that I get to do more "procedures" and don't have to deal with being on a team and getting no facetime with an attending will be better for me in the long run.

Malarkey.

 

[username456789]

For whatever it's worth, being at a community hospital without a bunch of interns/residents to work with can certainly handicap you for residency (or at least for your first year). Hanging with an attending all day gives you absolutely no insight into the daily schedule and duties of an intern/resident. In medicine, as in everything, there is definitely an element of "monkey see, monkey do." I don't wish to speak poorly of my colleagues, but as a whole, many of the Osteopathic interns in the medicine program where I'm doing my TY seemed to struggle significantly more than the Allopathic grads (particularly when it came to efficiency and organization), and I think that one of the likely several reasons is that there was little or no modeling during the clinical years of medical school for them as many of them completed the bulk of their rotations in smaller hospitals with few or no residency programs.

Sure, once people are out and practicing on their own it may be a moot point, but there's absolutely something to be said for spending a couple years learning what it's like to be a resident before you become a resident.

 

[Dr Dazzle]

For whatever it's worth, being at a community hospital without a bunch of interns/residents to work with can certainly handicap you for residency (or at least for your first year). Hanging with an attending all day gives you absolutely no insight into the daily schedule and duties of an intern/resident. In medicine, as in everything, there is definitely an element of "monkey see, monkey do." I don't wish to speak poorly of my colleagues, but as a whole, many of the Osteopathic interns in the medicine program where I'm doing my TY seemed to struggle significantly more than the Allopathic grads (particularly when it came to efficiency and organization), and I think that one of the likely several reasons is that there was little or no modeling during the clinical years of medical school for them as many of them completed the bulk of their rotations in smaller hospitals with few or no residency programs.

Sure, once people are out and practicing on their own it may be a moot point, but there's absolutely something to be said for spending a couple years learning what it's like to be a resident before you become a resident.

I think that's a key reason for why ACGME programs are so hesitant about DO grads. But don't DO students have the opportunity to set up rotations at university academic hospitals? I'm assuming that's done in 4th year. 3rd year is more community hospitals. But by the end of it, I feel a DO can work hard and find opportunities to make sure they are up to par before going off to residency. It may be true that you have to work hard and be more proactive than MD students to get better experiences. I feel this could work to your favor when PDs see the extra effort and your connected LORs. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[felix2929]

I think that's a key reason for why ACGME programs are so hesitant about DO grads. But don't DO students have the opportunity to set up rotations at university academic hospitals? I'm assuming that's done in 4th year. 3rd year is more community hospitals. But by the end of it, I feel a DO can work hard and find opportunities to make sure they are up to par before going off to residency. It may be true that you have to work hard and be more proactive than MD students to get better experiences. I feel this could work to your favor when PDs see the extra effort and your connected LORs. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Im pre-med too so hopefully some 4th years can weigh in but I imagine most university programs are pretty full of their own students. Also seems like you need to do core rotations 3rd year so 4th year you can be auditioning not learning the basics you should have learned 3rd year.

 

[Orthojoe]

I made sure I did some awesome inpatient, large university/hospital programs my third year. I bypassed my schools rotations and set them up myself. I've discussed this extensively in other posts concerning the struggles of my school getting quality clinical rotations (AZCOM)

Worked hard to set up the following rotations (for anyone in AZ). All associated residency programs.
Phoenix Children medical center obviously pediatrics
Banner good sam gen surg
Banner desert OB/gyn
University Medical (UofA) Internal Medicine
Maricopa Medical Psychiatry and ED -community hospital, great pathology

I basically just called up the programs, told them I was a upcoming third year and wondered if they took students from my school. I actually met with a few of the student coordinators to butter them up a bit. Not to mention a great step one score really helped. I then sat down with the chairs of different departments at my school, told them I had worked out rotating at these places and they helped me get approval. Two of the places (banner hospitals) already had relationships with my school but the clinical chair had to approve the student, so I had to butter them up too. In reality it was about building a relationship with the clinical chairs and the programs student coordinators. Both sides really ended up going out of their way to help me. Gotta be nice, enroll them in your cause.

Only once did I get demanding with my school, when they tried to tell me I couldnt do more than four months in ortho on auditions my fourth year. I basically told them i paid my own tuition and I'm going to do five months so find a way to make it happen, that I would make it known to everyone that it was their dumb policy that was holding student back from matching at competitive fields.. they classified one of the rotations as sports medicine so I could do it "legally".

 

[Sam212]

I made sure I did some awesome inpatient, large university/hospital programs my third year. I bypassed my schools rotations and set them up myself. I've discussed this extensively in other posts concerning the struggles of my school getting quality clinical rotations (AZCOM)

Worked hard to set up the following rotations (for anyone in AZ). All associated residency programs.
Phoenix Children medical center obviously pediatrics
Banner good sam gen surg
Banner desert OB/gyn
University Medical (UofA) Internal Medicine
Maricopa Medical Psychiatry and ED -community hospital, great pathology

I basically just called up the programs, told them I was a upcoming third year and wondered if they took students from my school. I actually met with a few of the student coordinators to butter them up a bit. Not to mention a great step one score really helped. I then sat down with the chairs of different departments at my school, told them I had worked out rotating at these places and they helped me get approval. Two of the places (banner hospitals) already had relationships with my school but the clinical chair had to approve the student, so I had to butter them up too. In reality it was about building a relationship with the clinical chairs and the programs student coordinators. Both sides really ended up going out of their way to help me. Gotta be nice, enroll them in your cause.

Only once did I get demanding with my school, when they tried to tell me I couldnt do more than four months in ortho on auditions my fourth year. I basically told them i paid my own tuition and I'm going to do five months so find a way to make it happen, that I would make it known to everyone that it was their dumb policy that was holding student back from matching at competitive fields.. they classified one of the rotations as sports medicine so I could do it "legally".

This would backfire at most schools and would probably land you in the doghouse very fast if tried. Glad it worked for you , but rising med studs, take caution with this approach.

 

[NeurologyDO]

Meh, I guess it depends what specialty you want to go into.

I Matched this year, and got into my #1 choice, a well respected ACGME Neuro program.
Most of my classmates got into well respected ACGME programs as well.

My grades were just a bit below average, and my USMLE and COMLEX scores were also just a little bit below average. Despite this, I got into my top choice and got e-mails from my #2 and #3 choices indicating I probably would have matched there, as well.

I strongly recommend taking the USMLE as it allows the programs to directly compare you to allopathic grads, and think twice about applying to a program that has no DO staff and has never had a DO resident, but honestly you are not at that big a disadvantage.
My class matched Anesthesia, Derm, and surgery in ACGME, all in well known programs. We even got multiple people into competitive IM and Peds programs! 🙂

 

[cliquesh]

Meh, I guess it depends what specialty you want to go into.

I Matched this year, and got into my #1 choice, a well respected ACGME Neuro program.
Most of my classmates got into well respected ACGME programs as well.

My grades were just a bit below average, and my USMLE and COMLEX scores were also just a little bit below average. Despite this, I got into my top choice and got e-mails from my #2 and #3 choices indicating I probably would have matched there, as well.

I strongly recommend taking the USMLE as it allows the programs to directly compare you to allopathic grads, and think twice about applying to a program that has no DO staff and has never had a DO resident, but honestly you are not at that big a disadvantage.
My class matched Anesthesia, Derm, and surgery in ACGME, all in well known programs. We even got multiple people into competitive IM and Peds programs! 🙂

Yea, I don't think being a DO is that big of a deal. It's definitely not as bad as SDN makes it seem . Acgme surgical subspecalties, derm, and rad onc are the only things that are really difficult for DOs. Everything else is do able. You may not end up at a top tier program, but it isn't the end of the world.

 

[NeurologyDO]

Yea, I don't think being a DO is that big of a deal. It's definitely not as bad as SDN makes it seem . Acgme surgical subspecalties, derm, and rad onc are the only things that are really difficult for DOs. Everything else is do able. You may not end up at a top tier program, but it isn't the end of the world.

I agree. I'm always surprised about some of the things said on here about Osteo schools, often times by osteopathic students! I guess they're just really stressed out and bitter?

I'm personally very happy that I decided to become a DO 🙂 ALl my friends come to me to cure their headaches heh heh

 

[NeurologyDO]

Im pre-med too so hopefully some 4th years can weigh in but I imagine most university programs are pretty full of their own students. Also seems like you need to do core rotations 3rd year so 4th year you can be auditioning not learning the basics you should have learned 3rd year.

I guess it might vary substantially from one DO school to another, but my experience was really very positive. I went to TCOM, and I loved it. I did do my 3rd year at a smaller hospital, but there were residents. Also it was great because often it was just me and an attending, or me plus 1 resident plus the attending. Very often, I was doing resident-level work, and getting lots of one-on-one time with the attending. Which you don't get at university hospitals! I was first assist on all the surgeries, pretty much 😛 What 3rd year can say that?

My 4th year was pretty much all electives, and by choice I did them all over the place. I was in a different city almost every month, which was great! It was mostly university hospitals, and I got to make lots of connections and lots of great LORs. Doing away/visiting rotations was very simple! I love the freedom I got as a 4th year, something the MD students I met on my travels rather envied 😛

Also, someone said something about high costs of DO schools...which I don't understand. My school is a state school, not a private one, so I didn't pay any more than anyone else.

There are great DO schools and bad DO schools, just like there are great MD schools and bad MD schools. Don't let bitter people in the forums make them seem like they are all bad simply because they are DO!

 

[sylvanthus]

I agree. I'm always surprised about some of the things said on here about Osteo schools, often times by osteopathic students! I guess they're just really stressed out and bitter?

I'm personally very happy that I decided to become a DO 🙂 ALl my friends come to me to cure their headaches heh heh

Ugh was gonna go off on a rant, but decided to be sorta nice. A person who actually posted that they went to a top 5 DO school (wut?) and already has changed their status to resident when residency has not started yet is just someone I cannot take seriously.

 

[NeurologyDO]

I already finished my last rotation, meh 🙂 Seeing how much ranting goes on here at sdn, I'm not going to take this web site too seriously ^_^

And while there is no official ranking of DO schools, there are ones that are always listed as being in "the top" and they can be compared by comlex/usmle scores and such.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I already finished my last rotation, meh 🙂 Seeing how much ranting goes on here at sdn, I'm not going to take this web site too seriously ^_^

And while there is no official ranking of DO schools, there are ones that are always listed as being in "the top" and they can be compared by comlex/usmle scores and such.

Can they?

 

[n3xa]

Ugh was gonna go off on a rant, but decided to be sorta nice. A person who actually posted that they went to a top 5 DO school (wut?) and already has changed their status to resident when residency has not started yet is just someone I cannot take seriously.

Maybe they meant top 5.... for debt.

Oh wait that's my school.

 

[JGimpel]

1. 3rd year med students aren't on par with interns/residents/fellows therefore the latter can't steal anything from the former. the fact that they all exists (and are constantly around) opens up more opportunities that someone will have some time to teach you something vs. an attending who may not even care that you exist. as a third year you know absolutely nothing and any of those people can teach you something useful.

2. at my med school's univ hospital (and i'm assuming many others) the learning experience of 3rd year med students is more important than that of 4th years and sub-Is.

3. while being first assist during surgeries is cool what isn't cool is seeing the same appy/chole day in and day out. university hospitals have a diversity of cases, including many rare cases, that you won't find at your typical community hospital. it's all about variety ...as a med student you're trying to expand your knowledge base not learning to be a scrub nurse.

4. community hospitals tend to transfer patients out when the case gets too complicated. at a university hospital you're basically at the end of the line. patients will come from all over your catchment area if they have something that other doctors have failed to diagnose as well. again, it all comes down to variety! sure, you might have lots of direct access to an attending at a community hospital but what good is that if you're seeing the same 5 cases over and over? Also is that attending really well up-to-date on the latest studies and can he/she really teach as well as one who's been doing this for a living and takes it seriously?



or you can be one of 100+ people who scrambled into an ACGME rads or anesthesia spot.

I've given directly of my experience through the process, could you give us more detail into what you did in your 4th year so far that has led you to have these opinions. If your a third year, please try again next year. If you're still in didactics, you have no basis for making these assumptions except what a friend of a friend that had this rotation at that hospital and liked the fresh bagels in the OR lounge but hated to put the visor and the shield together before scrubbing in, etc.

Rads and Anes got destroyed in the Medicare RVU system schedule the last few years and with Nighthawk and CRNAs taking their respective spots aggressively every year. If you've looked at the schedule, you'll see why those programs are much easier to match into than before.

People will argue just to argue a lot in SDN. Let's share details of our own experiences before we pass judgement on those that have shared of theirs.

 

[username456789]

I've given directly of my experience through the process, could you give us more detail into what you did in your 4th year so far that has led you to have these opinions. If your a third year, please try again next year. If you're still in didactics, you have no basis for making these assumptions except what a friend of a friend that had this rotation at that hospital and liked the fresh bagels in the OR lounge but hated to put the visor and the shield together before scrubbing in, etc.

Rads and Anes got destroyed in the Medicare RVU system schedule the last few years and with Nighthawk and CRNAs taking their respective spots aggressively every year. If you've looked at the schedule, you'll see why those programs are much easier to match into than before.

People will argue just to argue a lot in SDN. Let's share details of our own experiences before we pass judgement on those that have shared of theirs.

skinMD is a 4th year allopathic medical student who matched into IM, I believe (just for reference).

And I tend to agree with much of what he has stated in the post you quoted.

 

[survivordo]

You will pay top dollar for second-rate opportunities (and fewer of them) and work just as hard as MD students. In a nutshell.

(disclaimer: I attend a DO school. Just bein' real).

I love my DO school, but gotta agree with the above. Look at it this way, there are no threads on the allo boards "disadvantages of MD". It is what it is.

Survivor DO

 

[235009]

I've given directly of my experience through the process, could you give us more detail into what you did in your 4th year so far that has led you to have these opinions. If your a third year, please try again next year. If you're still in didactics, you have no basis for making these assumptions except what a friend of a friend that had this rotation at that hospital and liked the fresh bagels in the OR lounge but hated to put the visor and the shield together before scrubbing in, etc.

skinMD is a 4th year allopathic medical student who matched into IM, I believe (just for reference).

And I tend to agree with much of what he has stated in the post you quoted.

it's literally right in my signature ...couldn't make it any easier. everything GuyWhoDoesStuff said is true

Rads and Anes got destroyed in the Medicare RVU system schedule the last few years and with Nighthawk and CRNAs taking their respective spots aggressively every year. If you've looked at the schedule, you'll see why those programs are much easier to match into than before.

yes. i 100% agree with the above and i'm glad that some med students are paying enough attention to realize these specialties are in trouble (or at least won't be as cushy as they once were)

as for my experience... my experience is almost exclusively at a large tertiary university hospital and i've seen the kind of transfers from the surrounding community hospitals (a few of which have med students from other schools). once we had a transfer from medicine to psych of a patient that was floridly manic on their service for days and noone bothered to do anything about it. Once when i was in the CCU we had a transfer of a basically untreated intubated patient with an arrhythmia ...out of curiosity i asked the fellow why they transferred her and he told me that they routinely transfer sick patients on friday so they don't have to deal with them over the weekend. those are 2 of many examples that come to mind ....and i haven't even mentioned the countless other patients who traveled for miles to come get treatment at our hospital when their community hospital has either failed to diagnose/treat them or because they are familiar with our hospital's reputation. as you can see this creates a significant diversity of cases.

one thing i dont think i mentioned earlier too... we have another "clinical campus" at a community hospital and though i haven't done any rotations there i have heard experiences from classmates. at a large university hospital you tend to get people who understand that there will be med students and you will get to do a lot more. at some community hospitals there might be a ton of private patients who you're not even allowed to touch as a med student. granted there are some community hospitals that have very scarce resources and you might be able to get a lot of hands on experience but personally i'm not a fan of haphazard unstructured "experience" for med students.

anyway, i didn't mean to pick a fight or anything and i know there are thousands of community hospitals out there so experiences will vary tremendously but i felt that your argument needed a counterpoint. you only do med school once and sometimes this is the only time you'll ever see certain cases/conditions. IMO the way to maximize your experience is at a university hospital.

 

[Dr Dazzle]

I love my DO school, but gotta agree with the above. Look at it this way, there are no threads on the allo boards "disadvantages of MD". It is what it is.

Survivor DO

Unless it's a Carribean MD. 😉

 

[Dr Dazzle]

it's literally right in my signature ...couldn't make it any easier. everything GuyWhoDoesStuff said is true



yes. i 100% agree with the above and i'm glad that some med students are paying enough attention to realize these specialties are in trouble (or at least won't be as cushy as they once were)

as for my experience... my experience is almost exclusively at a large tertiary university hospital and i've seen the kind of transfers from the surrounding community hospitals (a few of which have med students from other schools). once we had a transfer from medicine to psych of a patient that was floridly manic on their service for days and noone bothered to do anything about it. Once when i was in the CCU we had a transfer of a basically untreated intubated patient with an arrhythmia ...out of curiosity i asked the fellow why they transferred her and he told me that they routinely transfer sick patients on friday so they don't have to deal with them over the weekend. those are 2 of many examples that come to mind ....and i haven't even mentioned the countless other patients who traveled for miles to come get treatment at our hospital when their community hospital has either failed to diagnose/treat them or because they are familiar with our hospital's reputation. as you can see this creates a significant diversity of cases.

one thing i dont think i mentioned earlier too... we have another "clinical campus" at a community hospital and though i haven't done any rotations there i have heard experiences from classmates. at a large university hospital you tend to get people who understand that there will be med students and you will get to do a lot more. at some community hospitals there might be a ton of private patients who you're not even allowed to touch as a med student. granted there are some community hospitals that have very scarce resources and you might be able to get a lot of hands on experience but personally i'm not a fan of haphazard unstructured "experience" for med students.

anyway, i didn't mean to pick a fight or anything and i know there are thousands of community hospitals out there so experiences will vary tremendously but i felt that your argument needed a counterpoint. you only do med school once and sometimes this is the only time you'll ever see certain cases/conditions. IMO the way to maximize your experience is at a university hospital.

So perhaps students who are concerned about this and have a university hospital MD program nearby can set up rotations there? It may not be easy, but as orthojoe said it can be done. Also, many students don't want to wait for an MD acceptance and another year when they were accepted to DO but have the stats to do MD. Countless DOs have gone through the hurdles and are practicing what they wanted. Maybe they just had to work a little harder to get the opportunities that the US MD program made it easier to get.

 

[azide10]

I love my DO school, but gotta agree with the above. Look at it this way, there are no threads on the allo boards "disadvantages of MD". It is what it is.

Survivor DO

Sure there are. They are just moved to pre-allo. Which is what I thought usually happens when pre-meds ask questions....

The grass is always greener. I've worked at hospitals with lower-tier MD students and they gripe constantly. I'm going in with an attitude of doing my best to become a competent physician. If I match at a hospital that won't make me a world renowned physician, well I'm alright with that. Speaking with multiple physicians that have trained at a "world renown" vs academic vs community, they constantly reiterate that "it's on you, not where you go to school or train."

But I'm sure I'll be pissed when the school is charging me a fortune while I put in the hard work to set up my 3rd and 4th years as I want, but this is no different than many MD schools.

 

[Dr Dazzle]

Sure there are. They are just moved to pre-allo. Which is what I thought usually happens when pre-meds ask questions....

The grass is always greener. I've worked at hospitals with lower-tier MD students and they gripe constantly. I'm going in with an attitude of doing my best to become a competent physician. If I match at a hospital that won't make me a world renowned physician, well I'm alright with that. Speaking with multiple physicians that have trained at a "world renown" vs academic vs community, they constantly reiterate that "it's on you, not where you go to school or train."

But I'm sure I'll be pissed when the school is charging me a fortune while I put in the hard work to set up my 3rd and 4th years as I want, but this is no different than many MD schools.

Really? MD schools have this too?

 

[Silent Cool]

http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf

Keep in mind, there are roughly 20k MD grads and 5k DO grads every year, about half of which go AOA, so 22500 grads needing placed yearly. Ish. I'm just pulling from what I remember last time this came up. This goes back 5 years from 2012 meaning there are over 100,000 graduates accounted for.

Of these

4 DOs matched derm
3 matched n.surg
16 matched ortho *over 5 years* (so ~3/year)
0 matched ophtho
1 matched plastics.

So fine, double my number, ish. From 10ish, to 20ish, but that is out of about 100,000 total grads in the match which is why I said previously "either go AOA or choose something else". By the time the OP gets there, the AOA match may have reduced programs of these types or have MD availability as well.

You can rationalize it away however you would like, but the argument that "because these specialties are a minority among MDs it doesn't matter if DOs don't match well" is completely insane. DOs are minority-er , and the point is made to demonstrate the bias that exists. Also, the only thing stopping DOs from applying to the ACGME is cost of applying. That will still be there post "merger". They don't have to decide which to stay in until after the interview trail. If you get a ton of interviews you are more likely to stay in it. If not you are more likely to pull out to the AOA.

I've been fair in my statements all along the way stating that there are those who don't experience it at all, and there are those who do. I am not saying it is a metaphysical certainty that you will experience discrimination based on your degree. But (also in the post you quoted), if you were to familiarize yourself with the PD survey you would know that the PDs themselves cite "US Allopathic graduate" as factoring into their decision and in many cases it ranks well above things like didactic grades. The fact that a single DO matched mayo a few years back and that it is still being touted somehow as the sole example of how bias doesnt exist does more to prove the point than to disprove it. That guy was a rockstar. If you can say with 100% certainty that you will also be a rockstar then no, there will be no bias against you (except for those PDs who openly admit they will not rank DOs....).

I can tell you this, as an MD graduate, the OP will never face discrimination for being a DO . It is as simple as that. The honest answer to the OPs question is that it exists, and sometimes it is a hassle for people, and the hassle increases as you try to get into more and more competitive fields. I just can't tell you how irritating it is to see countless pre and current students spin their neural hamster wheels trying to rationalize this thing away when the simplest and truest answer is "stop worrying about a slight decrease in chance to match in something you very well likely won't want to do with your life anyways" 🙄 Family docs make plenty to pay off their debt. So what if you can't do it as fast as the beverly hills plastic surgeon or Oprah's next pet project? If you aren't convinced that you can dramatically improve your app and get into the MD school next year or convinced that you would rather not do medicine at all if you can't go to the MD Anderson neurosurgery program (if the even have one....) then take the DO acceptance because even though the figure for matching as a % of grads produced is lower, the vast majority of them still find jobs without issue.

Specter is right. Look at the match lists. Most DOs match to middle-of-the road places or low-tier community programs. Occasionally you will see people getting into great academic residencies but that is not the norm. Likewise, you will occasionally see DOs match into Uro, Ophtho, etc.. (see AZCOM's match list from the past few years), but again this is not the norm.

 

[Silent Cool]

I love my DO school, but gotta agree with the above. Look at it this way, there are no threads on the allo boards "disadvantages of MD". It is what it is.

Survivor DO

Yup.

 

[screamin eagle]

It really doesn't matter, if you have the drive you can get into any field. I have been doing a semi-mentorship with a chief of radiology at a top academic hospital who is a DO. When I asked him the same question he told me that it's the education that matters, not the title. So, I'm going to take his advice over other people.

Sent from my MB855 using SDN Mobile

 

[JGimpel]

People will argue just to argue a lot in SDN.

anyway, i didn't mean to pick a fight or anything and i know there are thousands of community hospitals out there so experiences will vary tremendously but i felt that your argument needed a counterpoint.

Have a great weekend, Good Sir.

 

[username456789]

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[DopaDO]

I love my DO school, but gotta agree with the above. Look at it this way, there are no threads on the allo boards "disadvantages of MD". It is what it is.

Survivor DO

While I definitely understand your point, arent the disadvantages of DO similar to the disadvantages of low tier MD? While not totally accurate isn't that part of the spectrum? While I know match lists can be a horrible representation of how good a school is, I know my school always has several impressive matches to top academic centers like Cleveland Clinic and Mayo each year. I have seen some low tier MD schools match lists and I have no doubt that our school's list is consistently more impressive. I really believe that DO is no different than low tier MD in many PDs eyes.

 

[cliquesh]

While I definitely understand your point, arent the disadvantages of DO similar to the disadvantages of low tier MD? While not totally accurate isn't that part of the spectrum? While I know match lists can be a horrible representation of how good a school is, I know my school always has several impressive matches to top academic centers like Cleveland Clinic and Mayo each year. I have seen some low tier MD schools match lists and I have no doubt that our school's list is consistently more impressive. I really believe that DO is no different than low tier MD in many PDs eyes.

People, at least on SDN, don't see mayo and Cleveland clinic as top academic programs...probably, in part, because they take DOs regularly. I don't understand why they get a bad rap on SDN. I thought both of them were super nice, pleasant places, which is why I ranked them over places like washU, Upenn, and such.

 

[DopaDO]

People, at least on SDN, don't see mayo and Cleveland clinic as top academic programs...probably, in part, because they take DOs regularly. I don't understand why they get a bad rap on SDN. I thought both of them were super nice, pleasant places, which is why I ranked them over places like washU, Upenn, and such.

I don't see how this is true/possible. They are consistently ranked in the top 5 according to usnews. They are 3 & 4 this year behind only Mass Gen and Hopkins. It's fine if people want to dispute rankings and what-not, but you can't despite the caliber of hospitals like that. Those are worldwide elite institutions. There is no argument against it.

 

[babdoc]

I guess it might vary substantially from one DO school to another, but my experience was really very positive. I went to TCOM, and I loved it. I did do my 3rd year at a smaller hospital, but there were residents. Also it was great because often it was just me and an attending, or me plus 1 resident plus the attending. Very often, I was doing resident-level work, and getting lots of one-on-one time with the attending. Which you don't get at university hospitals! I was first assist on all the surgeries, pretty much 😛 What 3rd year can say that?

My 4th year was pretty much all electives, and by choice I did them all over the place. I was in a different city almost every month, which was great! It was mostly university hospitals, and I got to make lots of connections and lots of great LORs. Doing away/visiting rotations was very simple! I love the freedom I got as a 4th year, something the MD students I met on my travels rather envied 😛

I heard this type of plan from several profs and older students, and I completely agree. There is definitely something to be said about getting your hands dirty during third year. Then, during fourth year, you can use those skills in an academic/university setting. Doing lots of externships during the first half of your fourth year only helps. You get experience working in different hospitals and clinics. Basically, keep your head down, work hard, and you'll be rewarded.

 

[JGimpel]

I heard this type of plan from several profs and older students, and I completely agree. There is definitely something to be said about getting your hands dirty during third year. Then, during fourth year, you can use those skills in an academic/university setting. Doin lots of externships during the first half of your fourth year only helps. You get experience working in different hospitals and clinics. Basically, keep your head down, work hard, and you'll be rewarded.

Seconded.