DO discrimination

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Johnny, thanks for your response and explanation of your observations here. I can see why you would think that I am missing some point about how religion can be used to further a less than 'holy' goal, such as slavery. But actually, this fact is not lost on me.

Maybe its my fault for not being clear enough? Though I have re-posted this several times...so, if you are to further comment on the issue, direct your comments to what I do take issue with, which was this sentence(there are a few others, but this is representative and was the tipping point):

Really?So you can't also imagine Joesph Smith using religion to potentially rationalize polygamous relationships as well? Which obviously was also banned by your church's pulpit similarly to the demonization of African American's as the decedents of the sin of Cain?

But like I said, let's change the topic before we get confrontational and start saying hurtful things.
 
Really?So you can't also imagine Joesph Smith using religion to potentially rationalize polygamous relationships as well? Which obviously was also banned by your church's pulpit similarly to the demonization of African American's as the decedents of the sin of Cain?

But like I said, let's change the topic before we get confrontational and start saying hurtful things.


Did I ever say can't?

I CAN understand why these things are confusing to you. History is messy and difficult for us all to agree on.

Here are facts:

There was polygamy and racism in american history, yes even in the LDS church. I agree, yay! 😉

I dont think this is relevant to our conversation, though. Or to a pre med forum?

Again, whats the issue?(see the BOLD statement below...again) Its not how people have rationalized bad behavior in the past. No one disputes this. You can have your opinion on interpreting peoples intentions throughout history, and Ill have mine.

The issue is misrepresenting facts about my religion, that I will continue to correct as long as you guys try to wiggle your way out of having said them.

Again, lets start with this statement:

Originally Posted by SpecterGT260
At one point in history the book of Mormon condoned slavery of Africans


This is false (its one of the many false things being said here, but you all seem to be so slippery with arguing about non issues, so Ill stick with one at a time...)

EDIT: Also, in case it confusing, Im not asking you to try to support this sentence or why you said it. Pretend someone said your eye color was blue and it really brown. The move would be to rescind the comment and move on. There is no factual evidence to back this claim up, so let just move on?
 
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Originally Posted by SpecterGT260
At one point in history the book of Mormon condoned slavery of Africans


This is a very specific sentence. It is false and, to me this is offensive.

You and specter need to make the distinction between, the book of mormon condones X, and people use the book of mormon to condone X. Maybe you do? you havent been commenting, which I have appreciated.


These are very different sentences. )

these are marginally different....... but fine: I retract the statement about the book condoning slavery and amend it to "the book of mormon previously considered people with black skin to be sinful and marriage with such people was expressly forbidden". That part was quoted above.
 
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these are marginally different....... but fine: I retract the statement about the book condoning slavery and amend it to "the book of mormon previously considered people with black skin to be sinful and marriage with such people was expressly forbidden". That part was quoted above.

Thanks. I think what something actually says and how people interpret it are actually fundamentally different, but I can respect your opinion on the matter.

Since books cant really 'consider' something, I'll interpret your sentence as this:

"people have interpreted the book of mormon to be racist"

and I agree, people have.

A sincere thank you, I appreciate the common ground.
 
To the mormon people in here you should listen to the "mormon stories" podcasts. pretty good stuff.

to the non-mormons, you should google the mormon temple ceremony it's pretty lulzy.

anyway the important thing was someone linked interesting research and I'd like to see more like that.
 
Here's an example of how osteopathic research should be performed (with sham control group and large sample size):

http://www.om-pc.com/content/4/1/2

That study looks pretty compelling...

To the MD folks in the thread what's wrong with it?

Trying to get this thread headed in a better direction.

This is a really interesting study. It was designed as a randomized, double blind, with both sham (positive) and negative controls.

As has been mentioned above, designing a positive control (i.e. "Sham OMT") is complicated. You need to find some way to "do something" to patients that's similar enough to OMT that the patients can't tell the difference (i.e. it's as similar to OMT as it can be, without doing the "core" of OMT).

So, overall, the study is reasonably well designed and implemented. But it's not perfect.

One big problem is the blinding. At the end of the study they ask the patients whether they thought they were in the sham or active treatment groups. The majority were able to tell. This is a huge problem, and is a failure of blinding. Part of the problem could be too much of a difference between OMT and the sham (so that patients can tell), or perhaps that the OMT providers were talking to the patients while being treated, and gave away what they were doing. In any case, it creates problems. Since patients knew they were getting OMT (despite the attempted blinding), they are likely to report improvements with OMT -- they want to make the investigators happy. Avoiding this is the whole point of blinding. Plus, it's possible that the physicians caring for the patients equally had a "leak" of blinding (i.e. they shouldn't be able to witness an OMT provider going in to treat their patient -- the patients should be moved to a different room / area and then have their treatments, or it's possible that the patients who knew their treatments told their providers). In that case, providers might try to discharge those patients a bit faster.

But, the study has a much, much bigger problem. The Intention-to-treat analysis (ITT) showed no effect. The Per Protocol (PP) analysis showed a benefit. To review, an ITT analysis treats everyone randomized to OMT (even those who withdraw or ultimately don't get OMT) in the OMT group. A per-protocol analysis takes people randomized to OMT but who didn't get it and either removes them from the study, or adds them to the control group.

The authors suggest that the PP analysis shows a benefit because those people actually got OMT, and that the ITT analysis doesn't because the OMT effect is "washed out" by people randomized to OMT who ultimately didn't receive it. And that sounds reasonable, and it's theoretically true.

But, it's completely unacceptable.

Why? Because there are two other reasons why a PP analysis can show a benefit when an ITT doesn't. First, if your intervention (OMT) actually causes harm, that can cause people to drop out of the study. For example, consider a drug for cancer that causes severe side effects (perhaps kidney failure requiring HD) in 20% of cases that results in stopping the drug, but helps the remaining 80%. If you just "dropped" those 20% of people from the analysis, it would look like the drug works in everyone and is safe. Now, I agree that this is unlikely for OMT, as it seems unlikely that it could cause harm in some way.

The other reason is "sick dropout". Let's assume (for the sake of argument) that OMT does not work. You randomiaze 100 patients to OMT, and another 100 get a placebo treatment. Of the 100 patients randomized, 20 get really sick -- too sick for OMT and so it is stopped. Now, you have 80 patients left. If you compare how those 80 patients do with the 100 placebo patients, you're likely to see a "benefit". That's because, on average, 20 of those placebo patients are going to get "really sick" also but you can't drop out of the placebo arm (since there really isn't anything to stop). And, it's even worse if you move the dropouts to the placebo arm.

Bottom line -- if the ITT analysis is negative, you need to stop. Looking at a PP analysis is not appropriate, and is "data mining" looking for the result you want, not the study's actual result. So, this study shows that the intervention studied was no different than placebo.

Before I get pounced on, that does not mean that all OMT doesn't work (although that's a possible explanation).

Earlier on the thread someone was "poo-poo'ing" the placebo effect and mentioned that it couldn't be very significant. That's clearly not true. The RCT's looking at SSRI's showed a placebo effect of at least 20-30% (i.e. 20-30% of depressed patients given a sugar pill felt better). The placebo effect of a drug on cancer progression is often very small, but on subjective feelings is often quite strong.
 
Trying to get this thread headed in a better direction.

This is a really interesting study. It was designed as a randomized, double blind, with both sham (positive) and negative controls.

As has been mentioned above, designing a positive control (i.e. "Sham OMT") is complicated. You need to find some way to "do something" to patients that's similar enough to OMT that the patients can't tell the difference (i.e. it's as similar to OMT as it can be, without doing the "core" of OMT).

So, overall, the study is reasonably well designed and implemented. But it's not perfect.

One big problem is the blinding. At the end of the study they ask the patients whether they thought they were in the sham or active treatment groups. The majority were able to tell. This is a huge problem, and is a failure of blinding. Part of the problem could be too much of a difference between OMT and the sham (so that patients can tell), or perhaps that the OMT providers were talking to the patients while being treated, and gave away what they were doing. In any case, it creates problems. Since patients knew they were getting OMT (despite the attempted blinding), they are likely to report improvements with OMT -- they want to make the investigators happy. Avoiding this is the whole point of blinding. Plus, it's possible that the physicians caring for the patients equally had a "leak" of blinding (i.e. they shouldn't be able to witness an OMT provider going in to treat their patient -- the patients should be moved to a different room / area and then have their treatments, or it's possible that the patients who knew their treatments told their providers). In that case, providers might try to discharge those patients a bit faster.

But, the study has a much, much bigger problem. The Intention-to-treat analysis (ITT) showed no effect. The Per Protocol (PP) analysis showed a benefit. To review, an ITT analysis treats everyone randomized to OMT (even those who withdraw or ultimately don't get OMT) in the OMT group. A per-protocol analysis takes people randomized to OMT but who didn't get it and either removes them from the study, or adds them to the control group.

The authors suggest that the PP analysis shows a benefit because those people actually got OMT, and that the ITT analysis doesn't because the OMT effect is "washed out" by people randomized to OMT who ultimately didn't receive it. And that sounds reasonable, and it's theoretically true.

But, it's completely unacceptable.

Why? Because there are two other reasons why a PP analysis can show a benefit when an ITT doesn't. First, if your intervention (OMT) actually causes harm, that can cause people to drop out of the study. For example, consider a drug for cancer that causes severe side effects (perhaps kidney failure requiring HD) in 20% of cases that results in stopping the drug, but helps the remaining 80%. If you just "dropped" those 20% of people from the analysis, it would look like the drug works in everyone and is safe. Now, I agree that this is unlikely for OMT, as it seems unlikely that it could cause harm in some way.

The other reason is "sick dropout". Let's assume (for the sake of argument) that OMT does not work. You randomiaze 100 patients to OMT, and another 100 get a placebo treatment. Of the 100 patients randomized, 20 get really sick -- too sick for OMT and so it is stopped. Now, you have 80 patients left. If you compare how those 80 patients do with the 100 placebo patients, you're likely to see a "benefit". That's because, on average, 20 of those placebo patients are going to get "really sick" also but you can't drop out of the placebo arm (since there really isn't anything to stop). And, it's even worse if you move the dropouts to the placebo arm.

Bottom line -- if the ITT analysis is negative, you need to stop. Looking at a PP analysis is not appropriate, and is "data mining" looking for the result you want, not the study's actual result. So, this study shows that the intervention studied was no different than placebo.

Before I get pounced on, that does not mean that all OMT doesn't work (although that's a possible explanation).

Earlier on the thread someone was "poo-poo'ing" the placebo effect and mentioned that it couldn't be very significant. That's clearly not true. The RCT's looking at SSRI's showed a placebo effect of at least 20-30% (i.e. 20-30% of depressed patients given a sugar pill felt better). The placebo effect of a drug on cancer progression is often very small, but on subjective feelings is often quite strong.

Thanks for posting this...good info.

And I may be the one who was arguing about the placebo effect. To clarify, I wasn't diminishing the significant of the placebo effect itself. Like you stated, Im not surprised 20-30% of people felt better after taking a sugar pill in any given study.

The problem I had was that all the rhetoric that was being shared was basically saying that because of the placebo effect, OMT can't be confirmed as effective...or in other words, since there is a placebo effect with human touch, we can never know if the patient is feeling better because of OMT or just placebo.

So, I stated that this was an overstatement of the placebo effect. I meant just because the placebo effect helped someone feel better, doesn't mean that the degree of help from the placebo is indiscernible from another treatment. Look at the 20-30% of people who felt better by taking placebos instead of SSRIs. Not only can you differentiate whether the placebo had effect, but you can also qualify how that help compared to the patients who actually had serotonin re-uptake interrupted by a drug. Thus making the drug better than a placebo...or in the case of OMT, having OMT evoking a significantly higher result than a sham OMT treatment, or not. Is this not tested?

But, the arguments here get more about technicalities than meaning, so it gets difficult to move through a full case...maybe it will work this time!

EDIT: I'd like to point out that in the posted article, the sham treatment is Light Touch(LT) is it not? Which is what I was lambasted for suggesting earlier...

My thoughts on this study:

One question I have is how were the physician blinded?

I also think its pretty significant that, while it was not quite a majority like you stated, almost half of the patients knew how they were being treated. I think their conclusions, which are basically that OMT deserves further trial, are still justified given their finding were statistically highly significant in most cases compared to CCO. The problem is now being creative enough to design a trail that can differentiate between OMT and LT.Which is what Ive been arguing this whole time.

A question on that regard. If OMT can repeatedly be shown to improve patient care, could it just be downgraded and used as a professional or standardized LT? I mean, if it really does significantly improve health, I don't think anyone wants to throw it away.

The ITT analysis comes across as a flawed part of the study and really just needs to be addressed in the next trial...nothing to be done there, but again, i don't feel like that hurts the conclusion to continue studying OMT.
 
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Trying to get this thread headed in a better direction.
Why? Because there are two other reasons why a PP analysis can show a benefit when an ITT doesn't. First, if your intervention (OMT) actually causes harm, that can cause people to drop out of the study. For example, consider a drug for cancer that causes severe side effects (perhaps kidney failure requiring HD) in 20% of cases that results in stopping the drug, but helps the remaining 80%. If you just "dropped" those 20% of people from the analysis, it would look like the drug works in everyone and is safe. Now, I agree that this is unlikely for OMT, as it seems unlikely that it could cause harm in some way.

The other reason is "sick dropout". Let's assume (for the sake of argument) that OMT does not work. You randomiaze 100 patients to OMT, and another 100 get a placebo treatment. Of the 100 patients randomized, 20 get really sick -- too sick for OMT and so it is stopped. Now, you have 80 patients left. If you compare how those 80 patients do with the 100 placebo patients, you're likely to see a "benefit". That's because, on average, 20 of those placebo patients are going to get "really sick" also but you can't drop out of the placebo arm (since there really isn't anything to stop). And, it's even worse if you move the dropouts to the placebo arm.

I understand your reservations concerning the PP and ITT discrepancy as well as the problem of patient blinding to what treatment they are receiving. But in response, as noted in the "Safety-related outcomes" section of the article, "Self-reported side effects were generally mild (posttreatment musculoskeletal soreness or pain) and significantly more common in the OMT group (P = 0.003; OMT 19/88 [22%], LT 6/86 [7%], CCO 5/76 [7%]) but resulted in the withdrawal of only one subject." ... which doesn't support the idea that the patients dropped out due to adverse effects of the treatment. Also, if you look at the actual treatments that were performed ("thoracolumbar soft tissue, rib raising, doming of the diaphragm myofascial release, cervical spine soft tissue, suboccipital decompression, thoracic inlet myofascial release, thoracic lymphatic pump, and pedal lymphatic pump"), none of these are direct techniques (meaning they do not bring the patient to or through any barrier in ROM; rather, they are indirect and quite gentle), nor are they thrust-oriented (eg. HVLA) so they are not contraindicated in this population and do not have very serious side effects.

As far as the reasons for dropout, the reasons are stated clearly in this chart:
http://www.om-pc.com/content/4/1/2/figure/F1
 
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