DO discrimination

[SpecterGT260]

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🙄 and rumors are usually true.

It could happen..... the fellowships are already closing down a little bit.

 

[Dharma]

It could happen..... the fellowships are already closing down a little bit.

I guess anything could happen and I'm sure there are going to be some changes on the horizon. I just doubt they will be extreme measures. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I guess anything could happen and I'm sure there are going to be some changes on the horizon. I just doubt they will be extreme measures. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

if I had to guess, Id say the changes are going to go the other way and the mid-levelers will enjoy a boom. It is not unforeseeable that MD and DO will team up to protect common interests.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

No, the DO degree needs to go away, not get tacked on to every MD.

And this has already happened before in CA, should have happened everywhere but the AOA recognized an existential threat and fought back somehow.

The ACGME and LCME could unilaterally do it by closing the ACGME residencies to DO graduates unless their schools convert. There's already a few rumors that they might do just that once they finish off the Caribbean diploma mills.

Is there a reason why having a few schools dispense a certificate in Osteopathic medicine is so difficult for you to accept?

 

[Dharma]

if I had to guess, Id say the changes are going to go the other way and the mid-levelers will enjoy a boom. It is not unforeseeable that MD and DO will team up to protect common interests.

All the more reason to get everyone on the same page, instead of having politics distract from bigger issues. Midlevels are definitely hoping and pushing for that boom, without a doubt. Have you seen any of the battles that go down in those DNP vs MD/DO forums? It's insane.

 

[SpecterGT260]

All the more reason to get everyone on the same page, instead of having politics distract from bigger issues. Midlevels are definitely hoping and pushing for that boom, without a doubt. Have you seen any of the battles that go down in those DNP vs MD/DO forums? It's insane.

ive been in a few of those threads here on SDN.

 

[Wolverines83]

OOOHHHHHHH I was hoping you'd ask 😍

Ok so this post is going to piss off a few people so I want to start with a disclaimer. I do not think that practicing DOs (that have been through ACGME residencies) are in any way inferior to their MD counterparts. I exclude AOA only because MDs are not included so no claim of comparison can be made. My opinions on DO schools are represented above and I got Dharma's seal of approval so I feel like I'm good there 😀

So here is why your post is so ironic.



Let me paraphrase in my own words and show you what is so ridiculous here.

"these people feel the need to constantly reassure themselves that they are better than a group of people that they have consistently (on average) out performed by a rather wide margin"
riiiiiiight. We need to attack OMT to pat ourselves on the back. If your statement was at all valid the conversation would stop at scores and gpa. OMT is attacked by MD and DO alike and if you disagree I will go farm some posts off this board for you (even this thread).

The irony in the statement is how you talk about the mental gymnastics MDs need to go to to make themselves feel superior when what it looks like is you going through some mental gymnastics in order to not feel inferior. the strength of your words here is just born of an inferiority complex. I have no hole or void in my life i'm trying to fill. I think OMT on the whole is pretty sketchy and some parts of it are downright shameful. I dont think this just so I can "keep a brotha down" as you seem to think, but because it is based on bad science and I think that is wrong.
But either way, I just think your assertion that MDs of various levels feel the need to reassure themselves in such a way is just silly. Also I want to make it clear, this post does not say "MDs are better because xxxx", so if you got that from the post you did something wrong. It just says "your post was nonsense because xxxxxx" 👍

Well looks like I hit a nerve...

Great response, if I was referring to MDs as a group 😉. Hope you didn't spend too much time on it because it was based on an erroneous assumption.

I'm referring to the individual MDs who do, in fact, think they're better than DOs. Nothing more! Nothing in my post was directed towards MDs as a group. Not an MD hater here.

I feel the same about DOs who think that our "magical" OMM skills make us superior. It goes both ways. I just think that for those who choose to make one better than the other, OMM is either trashed or put on a pedestal depending on who's conducting the put-down.

We good?

 

[SpecterGT260]

Well looks like I hit a nerve...

Great response, if I was referring to MDs as a group 😉. Hope you didn't spend too much time on it because it was based on an erroneous assumption.

I'm referring to the individual MDs who do, in fact, think they're better than DOs. Nothing more! Nothing in my post was directed towards MDs as a group. Not an MD hater here.

I feel the same about DOs who think that our "magical" OMM skills make us superior. It goes both ways. I just think that for those who choose to make one better than the other, OMM is either trashed or put on a pedestal depending on who's conducting the put-down.

We good?

We were never not good 😉

 

[Wolverines83]

We were never not good 😉

Good stuff. 👍 Seriously though, if I had meant MDs as a whole that was a bomber response.

EDIT: Bomber = bombproof, as in the rock climbing usage

 

[SpecterGT260]

Good stuff. 👍 Seriously though, if I had meant MDs as a whole that was a bomber response.

EDIT: Bomber = bombproof, as in the rock climbing usage

I still don't understand your reference even after the edit
but its all good. yes, i originally took your post as applied to, not necessarily all MDs, but all MDs who have a problem with anything DO. I think Jonathan makes some good points about OMT. I, personally, am forgiving to the therapies that have a coherent mechanism to back them that is founded on good science..... but it bothers me quite a bit that you guys are still taught cranial and a few others (and it bothers many of you as well). On that basis, such a criticism isnt about filling a void anymore 😀
Aside from that, sure maybe I could have used some more hugs from good ol' mom 😳

 

[Wolverines83]

I still don't understand your reference even after the edit
but its all good. yes, i originally took your post as applied to, not necessarily all MDs, but all MDs who have a problem with anything DO. I think Jonathan makes some good points about OMT. I, personally, am forgiving to the therapies that have a coherent mechanism to back them that is founded on good science..... but it bothers me quite a bit that you guys are still taught cranial and a few others (and it bothers many of you as well). On that basis, such a criticism isnt about filling a void anymore 😀
Aside from that, sure maybe I could have used some more hugs from good ol' mom 😳

So in rock climbing the term "bomber" (or bombproof) basically means a rope setup that should not, under 99% of circumstances, fail. Meaning it's well thought out and effective. "It would stand up to a bomb." In other words, it was a solid argument that would have been hard to refute.

As for OMM, if you went back and looked at my past posts (from I don't know how long ago) my opinion of OMM is this: Certain things work for back aches, joint stiffness, MSK stuff, etc etc. You have a stiff shoulder? I can help you out. You have a sore back, I can help you out. But do I think I can cure autism by squishing a baby's head between my hands? Uhh....no. Balancing sympathetics? Uhh...no. Diagnose stomach pain? Uhh...no.

Basically I think it feels good and can loosen up some muscles and joints thereby relieving some pain. I can't see a disadvantage to being able to loosen up a patient's muscles or relieve a spasm but I think the problem is that some people seem to think it's a cure in and of itself.

If it's any consolation, most of us literally laugh out loud as the instructor talks about some of these ridiculous techniques and most of the adjunct faculty who are helping in lab will say "yeah, I know, just go through the motions." So it's not like any of us actually carry that stuff with us into the real world. I guess it's kinda like a "DO tax."

Oh and forget hugs from my mom...lol. If you look at a post of mine earlier I actually referenced her. For a second I thought that's what you were referencing with the irony comment.

 

[deleted103644]

So in rock climbing the term "bomber" (or bombproof) basically means a rope setup that should not, under 99% of circumstances, fail. Meaning it's well thought out and effective. "It would stand up to a bomb." In other words, it was a solid argument that would have been hard to refute.

As for OMM, if you went back and looked at my past posts (from I don't know how long ago) my opinion of OMM is this: Certain things work for back aches, joint stiffness, MSK stuff, etc etc. You have a stiff shoulder? I can help you out. You have a sore back, I can help you out. But do I think I can cure autism by squishing a baby's head between my hands? Uhh....no. Balancing sympathetics? Uhh...no. Diagnose stomach pain? Uhh...no.

Basically I think it feels good and can loosen up some muscles and joints thereby relieving some pain. I can't see a disadvantage to being able to loosen up a patient's muscles or relieve a spasm but I think the problem is that some people seem to think it's a cure in and of itself.

If it's any consolation, most of us literally laugh out loud as the instructor talks about some of these ridiculous techniques and most of the adjunct faculty who are helping in lab will say "yeah, I know, just go through the motions." So it's not like any of us actually carry that stuff with us into the real world. I guess it's kinda like a "DO tax."

Oh and forget hugs from my mom...lol. If you look at a post of mine earlier I actually referenced her. For a second I thought that's what you were referencing with the irony comment.

You shouldn't be laughing. You should be angry. That nonsense is making a mockery of your degree.

If it weren't for OMM, no one would care about the DO/MD distinction, they'd just look at DO schools the same way as lower tier MD schools.

Push your schools to get rid of the magical massages completely.

 

[SpecterGT260]

So in rock climbing the term "bomber" (or bombproof) basically means a rope setup that should not, under 99% of circumstances, fail. Meaning it's well thought out and effective. "It would stand up to a bomb." In other words, it was a solid argument that would have been hard to refute.

As for OMM, if you went back and looked at my past posts (from I don't know how long ago) my opinion of OMM is this: Certain things work for back aches, joint stiffness, MSK stuff, etc etc. You have a stiff shoulder? I can help you out. You have a sore back, I can help you out. But do I think I can cure autism by squishing a baby's head between my hands? Uhh....no. Balancing sympathetics? Uhh...no. Diagnose stomach pain? Uhh...no.

Basically I think it feels good and can loosen up some muscles and joints thereby relieving some pain. I can't see a disadvantage to being able to loosen up a patient's muscles or relieve a spasm but I think the problem is that some people seem to think it's a cure in and of itself.

If it's any consolation, most of us literally laugh out loud as the instructor talks about some of these ridiculous techniques and most of the adjunct faculty who are helping in lab will say "yeah, I know, just go through the motions." So it's not like any of us actually carry that stuff with us into the real world. I guess it's kinda like a "DO tax."

Oh and forget hugs from my mom...lol. If you look at a post of mine earlier I actually referenced her. For a second I thought that's what you were referencing with the irony comment.

I dont disagree with you.... but I have a problem with a treatment, even IF it is helpful, if it is based on faulty premises. I think chiropractic can help..... but the rationale is most often false, so the treatment has an increased tendency to get applied inappropriately, and its efficacy is capped as the practitioners are drawn down a rabbit hole that doesnt yield more answers. this is the ONLY thing that can happen to a mechanism based on faulty premises.

I have a family friend who sees a DC for her back pain, she likes to say "well, i wont say it works for everyone, but it works for me". To which I reply "well don't you think if we cut the bullsh*t in the mechanisms and actually learned what was going on we could understand why it works for you and not for everyone?" such a situation, IMO, is a classic example of how such treatments cast a broad net and do some good, but also inevitably do some hard because people start to believe in this lottery system of benefit.

 

[corpsman33]

So in rock climbing the term "bomber" (or bombproof) basically means a rope setup that should not, under 99% of circumstances, fail. Meaning it's well thought out and effective. "It would stand up to a bomb." In other words, it was a solid argument that would have been hard to refute.

As for OMM, if you went back and looked at my past posts (from I don't know how long ago) my opinion of OMM is this: Certain things work for back aches, joint stiffness, MSK stuff, etc etc. You have a stiff shoulder? I can help you out. You have a sore back, I can help you out. But do I think I can cure autism by squishing a baby's head between my hands? Uhh....no. Balancing sympathetics? Uhh...no. Diagnose stomach pain? Uhh...no.

Basically I think it feels good and can loosen up some muscles and joints thereby relieving some pain. I can't see a disadvantage to being able to loosen up a patient's muscles or relieve a spasm but I think the problem is that some people seem to think it's a cure in and of itself.

If it's any consolation, most of us literally laugh out loud as the instructor talks about some of these ridiculous techniques and most of the adjunct faculty who are helping in lab will say "yeah, I know, just go through the motions." So it's not like any of us actually carry that stuff with us into the real world. I guess it's kinda like a "DO tax."

Oh and forget hugs from my mom...lol. If you look at a post of mine earlier I actually referenced her. For a second I thought that's what you were referencing with the irony comment.

You shouldn't be laughing. You should be angry. That nonsense is making a mockery of your degree.

If it weren't for OMM, no one would care about the DO/MD distinction, they'd just look at DO schools the same way as lower tier MD schools.

Push your schools to get rid of the magical massages completely.

I dont disagree with you.... but I have a problem with a treatment, even IF it is helpful, if it is based on faulty premises. I think chiropractic can help..... but the rationale is most often false, so the treatment has an increased tendency to get applied inappropriately, and its efficacy is capped as the practitioners are drawn down a rabbit hole that doesnt yield more answers. this is the ONLY thing that can happen to a mechanism based on faulty premises.

I have a family friend who sees a DC for her back pain, she likes to say "well, i wont say it works for everyone, but it works for me". To which I reply "well don't you think if we cut the bullsh*t in the mechanisms and actually learned what was going on we could understand why it works for you and not for everyone?" such a situation, IMO, is a classic example of how such treatments cast a broad net and do some good, but also inevitably do some hard because people start to believe in this lottery system of benefit.

With so much controversy, anger, and misconceptions, I cannot wait to learn OMM when I start school in about a month.....😀.

 

[SoulinNeed]

Are people seriously in here trying to predict whether MD residencies will shut out DO's? Are people being serious? If that were to happen, it wouldn't be for another decade, at least. Who knows what could happen in this world by then. It's silly to make that assumptions.

BTW, fellowships are not being shut out to DO's. The idea being, and it could still change, is that you would have to do a MD residency before you do a MD fellowship. A DO doing a MD residency would be fine. There's a world of difference between that and shutting out DO's from MD residencies. Hell, I would argue that there is a far greater chance of DO residencies being opened up to MD students before that happens.

 

[Ost3oclast]

I've been lurking on this thread since it started. I recently decided to apply DO as well as MD. The only thing that bugged me about DO was the "discrimination" I would face if I got accepted and got the degree. We all acknowledge that some type of this exists although I don't think it is nearly as bad as some make it out to be. But I don't know much I'm just a pre-med. I will tell you however what made me choose to pursue the DO degree in spite of this. Regardless of the letters you have after your name, the people who want to will always discriminate against you. I've seen MD surgeons discriminate against MD anesthesiologists, I've seen MD EM docs discriminate against MD hospitalists and the list goes on and on and on. If somebody wants to bad enough, they will always find a way to judge you, regardless of what degree you hold, what color your hair is, what music you like, how you dress etc. For me, its tattoos. People always judge me about my tattoos until they find out I'm applying t medical school. They are "suprised" and suddenly interested in me. Its stupid but the way the world works. Meh.......

 

[deleted103644]

People always judge me about my tattoos until they find out I'm applying t medical school. They are "suprised" and suddenly interested in me. Its stupid but the way the world works. Meh.......

Visible tattoos are a bad professional move in general. I'm assuming you don't have a face tattoo, but even lower arms are a bad idea.

Definitely make sure yours are covered for interviews and try to avoid letting people know you have them until you're accepted.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I've been lurking on this thread since it started. I recently decided to apply DO as well as MD. The only thing that bugged me about DO was the "discrimination" I would face if I got accepted and got the degree. We all acknowledge that some type of this exists although I don't think it is nearly as bad as some make it out to be. But I don't know much I'm just a pre-med. I will tell you however what made me choose to pursue the DO degree in spite of this. Regardless of the letters you have after your name, the people who want to will always discriminate against you. I've seen MD surgeons discriminate against MD anesthesiologists, I've seen MD EM docs discriminate against MD hospitalists and the list goes on and on and on. If somebody wants to bad enough, they will always find a way to judge you, regardless of what degree you hold, what color your hair is, what music you like, how you dress etc. For me, its tattoos. People always judge me about my tattoos until they find out I'm applying t medical school. They are "suprised" and suddenly interested in me. Its stupid but the way the world works. Meh.......

Passing judgement is not the same as discrimination.

 

[pattr]

You shouldn't be laughing. You should be angry. That nonsense is making a mockery of your degree.

If it weren't for OMM, no one would care about the DO/MD distinction, they'd just look at DO schools the same way as lower tier MD schools.

Push your schools to get rid of the magical massages completely.

what is a "magical massage"?

If you are referring to OMM, I'm sure you are aware that some OMM techniques are the EXACT same ones used by PT's and PM&R docs right? And you want to take that out of DO curriculum? Why?

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

I think DOs should be discriminated against. Why go to a DO unless you believe in OMM and want that treatment? That's discrimination, just like I discriminate against MDs if I want OMM treatment. I don't think I'd go to a DO that doesn't practice OMM, why would I?

 

[deleted103644]

what is a "magical massage"?

If you are referring to OMM, I'm sure you are aware that some OMM techniques are the EXACT same ones used by PT's and PM&R docs right? And you want to take that out of DO curriculum? Why?

Because of its origins.

And if you're looking to PT and PM&R for justification, you're stretching. A good portion of both lacks proper evidence.

Manipulation, stretching, and massage can have therapeutic effect, but the explanations in OMM are pure bull plop.

There is enough pseudoscience in the world today, we don't need more people with the title of physician advocating it. If it makes you feel better, I'm equally annoyed by CAM.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

because of its origins.

And if you're looking to pt and pm&r for justification, you're stretching. A good portion of both lacks proper evidence.

Manipulation, stretching, and massage can have therapeutic effect, but the explanations in omm are pure bull plop.

There is enough pseudoscience in the world today, we don't need more people with the title of physician advocating it. If it makes you feel better, i'm equally annoyed by cam.

siiiiiiiigggghhhhhhhhh....

 

[Ost3oclast]

Visible tattoos are a bad professional move in general. I'm assuming you don't have a face tattoo, but even lower arms are a bad idea.

Definitely make sure yours are covered for interviews and try to avoid letting people know you have them until you're accepted.

Figured this confusion would occur and its my fault. My tattoos are covered by a short sleeve shirt. However when I ride my bicycle my jersey moves up where they are visible and thats when they show. People I ride with are usually the only ones who see them.......

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I think DOs should be discriminated against. Why go to a DO unless you believe in OMM and want that treatment? That's discrimination, just like I discriminate against MDs if I want OMM treatment. I don't think I'd go to a DO that doesn't practice OMM, why would I?

Because a DO gen surgeon is going to preform OMM on you?

 

[deleted103644]

Figured this confusion would occur and its my fault. My tattoos are covered by a short sleeve shirt. However when I ride my bicycle my jersey moves up where they are visible and thats when they show. People I ride with are usually the only ones who see them.......

You may get in trouble with scrubs, make sure you wear larger ones.

 

[Ost3oclast]

You may get in trouble with scrubs, make sure you wear larger ones.

Haha covered in scrubs to man. I wore scrubs to every tattoo session I hve had to make sure they wouldnt show.....ive done my homework on tattoo placement 😉

 

[deleted103644]

Haha covered in scrubs to man. I wore scrubs to every tattoo session I hve had to make sure they wouldnt show.....ive done my homework on tattoo placement 😉

Haha, good, but be warned - some scrubs are cut differently. If you have broad shoulders, some might ride really high on your arms.

 

[Ost3oclast]

Haha, good, but be warned - some scrubs are cut differently. If you have broad shoulders, some might ride really high on your arms.

Yea my shoulders are pretty broad. Oh well If I get some short scrubs I'll wear a size larger. Anyway....thread derail....back to discussion. Hahaha

 

[Makati2008]

Not many MD's respect DO's......

Just the truth that nobody wants to say or admit.

Amazing how brave people are behind a screen and I doubt what you say is true especially with so many of us choosing do instead of md after talking to mds

Let me know when you grow a set to tell an Attending Do(which i will bet a large sum you won't) that until then crawl under a rock and disappear child.

 

[Dharma]

Columbia grad.

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

Because a DO gen surgeon is going to preform OMM on you?

I think you're missing the point. Why would I go to someone who is trained as a plumber/electrician, if I want electrical work done, knowing that odds are a regular electrician will do the job better. Especially if the plumber/electrician went to plumbing school so that he could be an electrician but he doesn't believe in plumbing himself.

How can I trust a physician that doesn't trust his own training??

 

[Wolverines83]

I think you're missing the point. Why would I go to someone who is trained as a plumber/electrician, if I want electrical work done, knowing that odds are a regular electrician will do the job better. Especially if the plumber/electrician went to plumbing school so that he could be an electrician but he doesn't believe in plumbing himself.

How can I trust a physician that doesn't trust his own training??

You're equating OMM with overall training. Two separate things.

We're critical of certain aspects of OMM. Every physician makes decisions about what type of treatment is best (does that mean they don't trust it?) whether it be a certain medication, etc. Most DOs decide that OMM is not the best treatment. Doesn't mean we don't trust the rest of our medical and residency training.

 

[Ost3oclast]

Columbia grad.

Saw that before.....so sick.

 

[Dharma]

I think you're missing the point. Why would I go to someone who is trained as a plumber/electrician, if I want electrical work done, knowing that odds are a regular electrician will do the job better. Especially if the plumber/electrician went to plumbing school so that he could be an electrician but he doesn't believe in plumbing himself.

How can I trust a physician that doesn't trust his own training??

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEH66V2jMxU[/YOUTUBE]

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

You're equating OMM with overall training. Two separate things.

We're critical of certain aspects of OMM. Every physician makes decisions about what type of treatment is best (does that mean they don't trust it?) whether it be a certain medication, etc. Most DOs decide that OMM is not the best treatment. Doesn't mean we don't trust the rest of our medical and residency training.

I'll go there with you if you mean, when you say most decide against OMM, they still consider it. I mean, I get that OMM isnt the answer to everything medicine in a DOs life, but I think it should be significant.

I agree, they are separate, however, you only get a DO when you put them together. If the DO refuses to practice OMM in any facet, I believe they should have gone for an MD degree instead.

If they have no intention of practicing OMM, it signals to me they have no personal pride or value, and I would prefer to go to someone that trusted their own instincts and got a degree they actually wanted.

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEH66V2jMxU[/YOUTUBE]

I would be less annoyed at that if I weren't using SDN mobile which forces me to switch through apps to watch three seconds of nothing.

 

[pattr]

I'll go there with you if you mean, when you say most decide against OMM, they still consider it. I mean, I get that OMM isnt the answer to everything medicine in a DOs life, but I think it should be significant.

I agree, they are separate, however, you only get a DO when you put them together. If the DO refuses to practice OMM in any facet, I believe they should have gone for an MD degree instead.

If they have no intention of practicing OMM, it signals to me they have no personal pride or value, and I would prefer to go to someone that trusted their own instincts and got a degree they actually wanted.

You're suggesting that all DO's who don't use OMM in practice didn't want a DO degree?

Using OMM in practice takes: 1. skill and practice, the latter of which I can admit that there is not enough of during medical school to ensure everyone is proficient/confident in OMM, 2. the right type of specialty/patient population, 3. an environment that embraces OMM and the additional time it takes to treat patients with manual medicine.

And I assure you that there are people who pursued DO because it was their choice and their dream, not because they couldn't get into MD school.

I'd hope that most people going into medicine are satisfied and excited by it because of the WORK and the relationship they are allowed with their patients not the letters behind their names.

 

[Wolverines83]

I'll go there with you if you mean, when you say most decide against OMM, they still consider it. I mean, I get that OMM isnt the answer to everything medicine in a DOs life, but I think it should be significant.

I agree, they are separate, however, you only get a DO when you put them together. If the DO refuses to practice OMM in any facet, I believe they should have gone for an MD degree instead.

If they have no intention of practicing OMM, it signals to me they have no personal pride or value, and I would prefer to go to someone that trusted their own instincts and got a degree they actually wanted.

You had a good post until that last paragraph.

If a student enters DO school knowing nothing about OMM (or, at best, they've seen it a couple times while shadowing, just like every other incoming student) and learns it all then decides they aren't going to use it 95% of the time that means they have no personal pride or value? You went from A to B to Q.

Did you ever try something you thought would be fun and then say "Ya know what...that wasn't really that cool."?

We get it, you don't like DOs. Move on.

 

[Sileni]

You had a good post until that last paragraph.

If a student enters DO school knowing nothing about OMM (or, at best, they've seen it a couple times while shadowing, just like every other incoming student) and learns it all then decides they aren't going to use it 95% of the time that means they have no personal pride or value? You went from A to B to Q.

Did you ever try something you thought would be fun and then say "Ya know what...that wasn't really that cool."?

We get it, you don't like DOs. Move on.

I don't think you get his point... He wants you to know he doesn't like DOs. I mean, what's the point of being superior to someone if they don't know your superior to them, right?

Anyone else noticed are large influx of trolls? This is how you know it's summer.

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

You're suggesting that all DO's who don't use OMM in practice didn't want a DO degree?

And I assure you that there are people who pursued DO because it was their choice and their dream, not because they couldn't get into MD school.

I'd hope that most people going into medicine are satisfied and excited by it because of the WORK and the relationship they are allowed with their patients not the letters behind their names.

I'm not a fan of absolutes, so saying "all" is alarming, but I mean, we can both agree that there is no need for someone to have a DO degree if they don't want to practice OMM, right? In this case, my interpretation of your interpretation of me is that I get a feeling you think I think DOs should be looked down on, which is certainly not my intention. Following that idea, I don't think it's about "not wanting" a DO but rather not "needing" a DO. And historically the fact that DOs have easier acceptances adds to the curiosity of this idea.

Again, I don't have a problem with DOs who practice OMM, so this garbage about telling me that some DOs could have gone on to get an MD is meaningless because I don't have a problem with DOs who want to be DOs and are therefore practicing OMM. (if you were to tell me that some DOs that refuse to practice OMM could have gotten an MD, but chose the DO route instead, I would be more intrigued, but you did not).

The letters behind the name SHOULD mean something, especially as a DO! The DO should be worn as a badge suggesting the OMM treatment, and a different approach to medicine, not just the difference in dentistry between a DDS and DMD....

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

I don't think you get his point... He wants you to know he doesn't like DOs. I mean, what's the point of being superior to someone if they don't know your superior to them, right?

Anyone else noticed are large influx of trolls? This is how you know it's summer.

How many times have I got to say this? I don't have a problem with DOs that practice OMM.

Superior?? Im applying to pod school, lol, I think you missed that one, hahaha

 

[Dharma]

I'm not a fan of absolutes, so saying "all" is alarming, but I mean, we can both agree that there is no need for someone to have a DO degree if they don't want to practice OMM, right? In this case, my interpretation of your interpretation of me is that I get a feeling you think I think DOs should be looked down on, which is certainly not my intention. Following that idea, I don't think it's about "not wanting" a DO but rather not "needing" a DO. And historically the fact that DOs have easier acceptances adds to the curiosity of this idea.

Again, I don't have a problem with DOs who practice OMM, so this garbage about telling me that some DOs could have gone on to get an MD is meaningless because I don't have a problem with DOs who want to be DOs and are therefore practicing OMM. (if you were to tell me that some DOs that refuse to practice OMM could have gotten an MD, but chose the DO route instead, I would be more intrigued, but you did not).

The letters behind the name SHOULD mean something, especially as a DO! The DO should be worn as a badge suggesting the OMM treatment, and a different approach to medicine, not just the difference in dentistry between a DDS and DMD....

There are competent physicians and incompetent ones... good ones, great ones, mediocre ones, and bad ones. That's all that SHOULD matter, but there will always be opinions, misunderstandings, misinformation, ignorance, whacky perceptions, prejudices, emotions, complexes, blah blah blah, discrimination...

Anyways, looking like it's about that time to walk away from this thread...

 

[pattr]

I'm not a fan of absolutes, so saying "all" is alarming, but I mean, we can both agree that there is no need for someone to have a DO degree if they don't want to practice OMM, right? In this case, my interpretation of your interpretation of me is that I get a feeling you think I think DOs should be looked down on, which is certainly not my intention. Following that idea, I don't think it's about "not wanting" a DO but rather not "needing" a DO. And historically the fact that DOs have easier acceptances adds to the curiosity of this idea.

Again, I don't have a problem with DOs who practice OMM, so this garbage about telling me that some DOs could have gone on to get an MD is meaningless because I don't have a problem with DOs who want to be DOs and are therefore practicing OMM. (if you were to tell me that some DOs that refuse to practice OMM could have gotten an MD, but chose the DO route instead, I would be more intrigued, but you did not).

The letters behind the name SHOULD mean something, especially as a DO! The DO should be worn as a badge suggesting the OMM treatment, and a different approach to medicine, not just the difference in dentistry between a DDS and DMD....

Your mistake is in equating DO = OMM.

A DO is a physician first and foremost. Whether they decide to use OMM in practice is entirely up to them. Are you gonna be using OMM techniques on someone if you're a surgeon? Plenty of people, as mentioned above, go to DO school and then decide they want to pursue a specialty that doesn't utilize manual medicine at all.

OMM isn't the only distinction between MD and DO. DO schools focus on different things in curriculum too. Just look at their board exams. I'm taking the USMLE and COMLEX Step/Level 1 right now. USMLE... massive amounts of biochem, immuno, basic sciences, sometimes with no mention of a patient. COMLEX... more anatomy, microbio, pharm, and obviously OMM, but almost ALL questions are clinical vignettes having to do with a patient.

Plus most DO schools exist to train primary care doctors specifically. So their curriculum will reflect that as well.

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

You had a good post until that last paragraph.

If a student enters DO school knowing nothing about OMM (or, at best, they've seen it a couple times while shadowing, just like every other incoming student) and learns it all then decides they aren't going to use it 95% of the time that means they have no personal pride or value? You went from A to B to Q.

Did you ever try something you thought would be fun and then say "Ya know what...that wasn't really that cool."?

We get it, you don't like DOs. Move on.

Yeah, but isn't that why you shadow and all that jazz? I am planning on pod school, but what if halfway through school I decided I didn't like feet?!? Or if a dental student didnt like teeth?!? These two implications are devastating to the student if that happens. I think the same "standard" should be held to DO students, if not "lawfully" then At least socially. I plan to go to pod school to work on the foot/ankle, because i know this will be the rest of my life, you better believe I've shadowed and made sure I like it. If I fall out of favor for this profession, I can't just switch to ortho or family med.

I don't want this to turn into a "you're only saying that because your upset it's not fair," idea, because I get it, DOs have identical medical education to MDs whereas (depending on the school...), DPMs and DDSs might not, but I think my point is still valid insomuch as you shouldn't commit to something like DO unless you are 99.99% certain you like OMM, if not, go get an MD.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Yeah, but isn't that why you shadow and all that jazz? I am planning on pod school, but what if halfway through school I decided I didn't like feet?!? Or if a dental student didnt like teeth?!? These two implications are devastating to the student if that happens. I think the same "standard" should be held to DO students, if not "lawfully" then At least socially. I plan to go to pod school to work on the foot/ankle, because i know this will be the rest of my life, you better believe I've shadowed and made sure I like it. If I fall out of favor for this profession, I can't just switch to ortho or family med.

I don't want this to turn into a "you're only saying that because your upset it's not fair," idea, because I get it, DOs have identical medical education to MDs whereas (depending on the school...), DPMs and DDSs might not, but I think my point is still valid insomuch as you shouldn't commit to something like DO unless you are 99.99% certain you like OMM, if not, go get an MD.

Ok, look it's as simple as this, DO schools have lesser requirements to get into it than MD. So for a lot of people 200 hours of learning how to feel patients isn't a big deal if it means that they can be a doctor and practice in their area of interest in medicine. That being said, if you're crazy about OMM you can always do a residency in OMM and do that, if not then you can do whatever you want.

 

[Wolverines83]

Yeah, but isn't that why you shadow and all that jazz? I am planning on pod school, but what if halfway through school I decided I didn't like feet?!? Or if a dental student didnt like teeth?!? These two implications are devastating to the student if that happens. I think the same "standard" should be held to DO students, if not "lawfully" then At least socially. I plan to go to pod school to work on the foot/ankle, because i know this will be the rest of my life, you better believe I've shadowed and made sure I like it. If I fall out of favor for this profession, I can't just switch to ortho or family med.

I don't want this to turn into a "you're only saying that because your upset it's not fair," idea, because I get it, DOs have identical medical education to MDs whereas (depending on the school...), DPMs and DDSs might not, but I think my point is still valid insomuch as you shouldn't commit to something like DO unless you are 99.99% certain you like OMM, if not, go get an MD.

OK I don't want to go back and forth here so here's my last piece. To me, OMM is a minor part of being a DO albeit the one that apparently makes a DO "osteopathic." I realize that seems contradictory, but it's how I feel. That's the basis of our disagreement here. You seem to be of the opinion that it's a massive part of being a DO. Fair enough.

I don't feel that your "standard" as stated should apply to a DO student because I think it's a different situation. Feet and ankles are a gigantic part of being a pod and teeth are a gigantic part of being a dentist. If a DO decides that OMM isn't for them then they don't use it but still use medicine. If a pod decides feet aren't for them...well....uh....I dunno? Same for dentists. The equivalent there would be if a DO decided they hated the human body.

 

[WDeagle]

Yeah, but isn't that why you shadow and all that jazz? I am planning on pod school, but what if halfway through school I decided I didn't like feet?!? Or if a dental student didnt like teeth?!? These two implications are devastating to the student if that happens. I think the same "standard" should be held to DO students, if not "lawfully" then At least socially. I plan to go to pod school to work on the foot/ankle, because i know this will be the rest of my life, you better believe I've shadowed and made sure I like it. If I fall out of favor for this profession, I can't just switch to ortho or family med.

I don't want this to turn into a "you're only saying that because your upset it's not fair," idea, because I get it, DOs have identical medical education to MDs whereas (depending on the school...), DPMs and DDSs might not, but I think my point is still valid insomuch as you shouldn't commit to something like DO unless you are 99.99% certain you like OMM, if not, go get an MD.

Nothing you are saying makes sense. When the hell is a DO radiologist or surgeon going to practice OMT? Even if I think OMT is the greatest thing ever there is basically no opportunities and indications for it in most fields. Most physicians are too busy trying get work done to circle-jerk about who looks down on who. If you are an MD and you have time look down on DO's (I have never met one) you need to see more patients.

 

[deleted103644]

Nothing you are saying makes sense. When the hell is a DO radiologist or surgeon going to practice OMT? Even if I think OMT is the greatest thing ever there is basically no opportunities and indications for it in most fields. Most physicians are too busy trying get work done to circle-jerk about who looks down on who. If you are an MD and you have time look down on DO's (I have never met one) you need to see more patients.

On that topic, why the hell are there DO radiology residencies?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

On that topic, why the hell are there DO radiology residencies?

Why not?....

 

[Iliketoytles]

HAUNTAA. HAUNT HAUNTT.