DO discrimination

[MaxillofacialMN]

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What???? Oh man. I have no words.

Is there an animated smiley face that's punching the other one in the face?

Sorta

 

[HalfListic]

Sorta

That'll have to do...

 

[skinnyDO]

The very point I was making originally was that you should atleast complete the application process before you qualify yourself to shun DO philosophy.

What don't you understand?


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[SpecterGT260]

What dont they understand? The part where getting accepted suddenly changes anything at all.

You are exactly who you were before + the weight of 1 piece of paper....... It was a silly comment

 

[deleted103644]

Hahaha oh god.

Pod people, get it? If not, you should watch Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

 

[deleted103644]

The very point I was making originally was that you should atleast complete the application process before you qualify yourself to shun DO philosophy.

What don't you understand?


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Thank you for confirming I am qualified to call OMM/OMT/OPP/NMM bologna.

 

[HalfListic]

What dont they understand? The part where getting accepted suddenly changes anything at all.

You are exactly who you were before + the weight of 1 piece of paper....... It was a silly comment

Now I get it.

I can support it, but I can't critique it until Just before I get trained in it

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. 100% hater 😕 but, why?


Answer me this: If there's a DO willing to do OMM, and a patient requesting OMM........... Who are you in that equation?

Well it depends on what it's for, if it is for muscular pain that's fine. However some people will go to OMM practitioners for cures for things like autism or developmental disorders. It is the place of the doctor to tell them that despite what their OMM teacher said, there is no evidence for any of OMM to reverse such things. Otherwise the majority of DO's who use OMM are using it for somatic pain and using it in very few fields at that.

 

[HalfListic]

You seem to me to be the most level headed in this present conversation.

I appreciate it, but I'm a pre med, so I'm confused now

 

[skinnyDO]

Its not just an acceptance, it's doing well in school, shadowing, doing well on MCAT, selling yourself on apps, interviewing well... A percentage of premed haters will ultimately be forced to go DO and then will be eating their words. That's why, better to just exercise humility and stop thinking you know everything.

I never claimed to know anything except the fact that you shouldn't claim to know everything 👍


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[MaxillofacialMN]

Pod people, get it? If not, you should watch Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

I feel stupid. I knew what movie you were talking about, but I didn't draw that connection. Wow....

 

[skinnyDO]

I appreciate it, but I'm a pre med, so I'm confused now

Did u make claims against something that you know nothing about? Then why are you including yourself?


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[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The very point I was making originally was that you should atleast complete the application process before you qualify yourself to shun DO philosophy.

What don't you understand?


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He's a resident radiologist. He likely knows more than enough physiology and pathophysiology to understand that certain OMM procedures are useless and outright wrong.

Its not just an acceptance, it's doing well in school, shadowing, doing well on MCAT, selling yourself on apps, interviewing well... A percentage of premed haters will ultimately be forced to go DO and then will be eating their words. That's why, better to just exercise humility and stop thinking you know everything.

I never claimed to know anything except the fact that you shouldn't claim to know everything 👍


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What's your point? A majority of your class is going to hate OMM because a majority of your class has no interest in using it. Then after they graduate they will forget all of their OMM and have the same opinion as they had when they were OMS-0.

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

Its not just an acceptance, it's doing well in school, shadowing, doing well on MCAT, selling yourself on apps, interviewing well... A percentage of premed haters will ultimately be forced to go DO and then will be eating their words. That's why, better to just exercise humility and stop thinking you know everything.

I never claimed to know anything except the fact that you shouldn't claim to know everything 👍


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I don't have an acceptance, but I do well in school, I shadow, my MCAT will be fantastic (for my school pref), I don't sell myself - it's the school's job to sell, and I am generally charismatic and loquacious enough to do well in interviews. So..... because chronologically I haven't experienced the "acceptance" part yet (sorry, it won't be a DO or MD program, though), I am still less qualified?

I think you're losing this one, bud

 

[skinnyDO]

He's a resident radiologist. He likely knows more than enough physiology and pathophysiology to understand that certain OMM procedures are useless and outright wrong.

Perhaps. Therefore, I take his opinion with appreciation. What I don't appreciate is premeds spewing negativity about something they don't know about.


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[MaxillofacialMN]

He's a resident radiologist. He likely knows more than enough physiology and pathophysiology to understand that certain OMM procedures are useless and outright wrong.



What's your point? A majority of your class is going to hate OMM because a majority of your class has no interest in using it. Then after they graduate they will forget all of their OMM and have the same opinion as they had when they were OMS-0.

Woah, you're pre-med. SkinnyDO don't care.

 

[skinnyDO]

All I know is.... Ultimately I win.


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[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Perhaps. Therefore, I take his opinion with appreciation. What I don't appreciate is premeds spewing negativity about something they don't know about.


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The scientific method is not a patent of medical school. Furthermore there are plenty of DO's and DO students on here with similar personalities for one to make an educated assumption that they will dislike OMM. There's nothing else to say Skinny.

All I know is.... Ultimately I win.


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No, all you did was crap all over this thread and declare yourself supreme victor using two-bit arguments. Sorry, all you did was exasperate a thread that was peacefully dying. Thank you for your contribution.

 

[HalfListic]

Did u make claims against something that you know nothing about? Then why are you including yourself?


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Here's my point...you seem to put a lot of merit on where someone is in the process. I dot agree...I'm sure you're a great person, and in other threads, we will probably be friends. But this is the danger zone thread, so you have to make sure you mean what you say.

The take home message, I'm a pre med, JD says he's a resident(the jury's still out 😉, and we even have a (future) foot dentist in the building. Everyone has an opinion, but their comments are NOT validated by their degree or lack thereof. Personally, I think Johnny is full of **** sometimes, even though he's a resident and I'm a lowly pre-med. so if I have something intelligent to say, I'll say it. And if someone else says something, I'll evaluate that piece of info for its own validity.

Edit: added the not, thought it was there

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Here's my point...you seem to put a lot of merit on where someone is in the process. I dot agree...I'm sure you're a great person, and in other threads, we will probably be friends. But this is the danger zone thread, so you have to make sure you mean what you say.

The take home message, I'm a pre med, JD says he's a resident(the jury's still out 😉, and we even have a (future) foot dentist in the building. Everyone has an opinion, but their comments are NOT validated by their degree or lack thereof. Personally, I think Johnny is full of **** sometimes, even though he's a resident and I'm a lowly pre-med. so if I have something intelligent to say, I'll say it. And if someone else says something, I'll evaluate that piece of info for its own validity.

Edit: added the not, thought it was there

You need to realize that the only argument he can make is that we're not DO students and thus have had no experiences, i.e anecdotes where we have seen OMM work. If there were studies, stats, then no one would be arguing, however since there are none, the only way that these people who have deeply rationalized the DO path is to appeal to authority.

 

[deleted103644]

The scientific method is not a patent of medical school. Furthermore there are plenty of DO's and DO students on here with similar personalities for one to make an educated assumption that they will dislike OMM. There's nothing else to say Skinny.





No, all you did was crap all over this thread and declare yourself supreme victor using two-bit arguments. Sorry, all you did was exasperate a thread that was peacefully dying. Thank you for your contribution.

Seriously. I have nothing against the students who choose DO schools for practical reasons, but the ones who buy into the BS because they're already into pseudoscience or the ones who rationalize after the fact to convince themselves they really wanted a DO after all deserve no sympathy.

 

[deleted103644]

Here's my point...you seem to put a lot of merit on where someone is in the process. I dot agree...I'm sure you're a great person, and in other threads, we will probably be friends. But this is the danger zone thread, so you have to make sure you mean what you say.

The take home message, I'm a pre med, JD says he's a resident(the jury's still out 😉, and we even have a (future) foot dentist in the building. Everyone has an opinion, but their comments are NOT validated by their degree or lack thereof. Personally, I think Johnny is full of **** sometimes, even though he's a resident and I'm a lowly pre-med. so if I have something intelligent to say, I'll say it. And if someone else says something, I'll evaluate that piece of info for its own validity.

Edit: added the not, thought it was there

Haha, do you need my match letters and two forms of ID? How about my NPI number or institutional DEA number? 😛

 

[sylvanthus]

You need to realize that the only argument he can make is that we're not DO students and thus have had no experiences, i.e anecdotes where we have seen OMM work. If there were studies, stats, then no one would be arguing, however since there are none, the only way that these people who have deeply rationalized the DO path is to appeal to authority.

Ooh there are stuides. Very flawed studies but they are out there.

 

[deleted103644]

Ooh there are stuides. Very flawed studies but they are out there.

I hear if you shake a baby hard enough they will stop coughing...

 

[HalfListic]

You need to realize that the only argument he can make is that we're not DO students and thus have had no experiences, i.e anecdotes where we have seen OMM work. If there were studies, stats, then no one would be arguing, however since there are none, the only way that these people who have deeply rationalized the DO path is to appeal to authority.

Thats what Im slowly realizing here. It makes it seem like there is no other argument...its tough to blame the people who bash OMM, or DOs in general. Its like there are only complacent DOs or Blind Faith DOs. Both bother me.

Haha, do you need my match letters and two forms of ID? How about my NPI number or institutional DEA number? 😛

...I guess if it were all notarized 😀

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Ooh there are stuides. Very flawed studies but they are out there.

I don't understand why some of these OMM fellows and OMM professors can't spend some time doing studies. A few years by enough osteopathic institutes and you're bound to see some studies that show benefit.

 

[deleted103644]

I don't understand why some of these OMM fellows and OMM professors can't spend some time doing studies. A few years by enough osteopathic institutes and you're bound to see some studies that show benefit.

They do. But the studies are usually biased and don't include true controls (ie no sham osteopathy, only placebo effect "estimates" or other half-assed controls).

Acupuncture has a benefit too, but you don't need to know any of the history of acupuncture or even have any training whatsoever to provide a benefit - random needles work just as well.

 

[HalfListic]

Any examples of these flawed studies from OMM fellows?

I guess I'll have to look into this...I'm a skeptic by default, but I'd actually be surprised if there aren't any decent OMT studies.

 

[MedPR]

It's more than you think. A lot of people choose their school solely based on location. Most actual medical students, at least from my class, do not think like people you see posting on studentdoctor.net.

Most people are also not as informed about the comparatively poor clinical rotations/residency programs DO students have to look forward to. Just because most people don't think like SDNers doesn't mean they are right or more informed. Most people don't even know what a DO is. Plus how many people are in areas where there is a nearby DO, but not MD school?

I'm the person telling Medicare not to cover it.

Let medicare cover it. If they don't, then we'll all be covering it as part of our non-medicare insurance plans just like we do the $50 ibuprofens uninsured people get in the ED.

 

[MedPR]

Any examples of these flawed studies from OMM fellows?

I guess I'll have to look into this...I'm a skeptic by default, but I'd actually be surprised if there aren't any decent OMT studies.

I'm confused how you would go about doing a legit OMT study though.. How would you have a control? Purposely do "fake" OMT? Then it wouldn't be a double blind and would therefore be subject to bias one way or another.

 

[deleted103644]

Let medicare cover it. If they don't, then we'll all be covering it as part of our non-medicare insurance plans just like we do the $50 ibuprofens uninsured people get in the ED.

It's actually more than just that... Alternative medicine practitioners are leeches feeding off of public ignorance. Whether they're leaching from patients directly, via insurance companies, or through the government is secondary.

I don't think we can outright outlaw quackery, but we have to stop pretending it deserves our professional respect.

Dr. Oz can shove Reiki up his ***.

And yes, I'm including OMT in the same category.

 

[deleted103644]

I'm confused how you would go about doing a legit OMT study though.. How would you have a control? Purposely do "fake" OMT? Then it wouldn't be a double blind and would therefore be subject to bias one way or another.

To be honest, probably the ideal experiment would be to train two groups of students in a technique.

One group gets the real one, the other a sham procedure, but the students don't know which they are learning.

You then see how the two groups do with real patients.

That would by necessity be a small n experiment though.

 

[HalfListic]

To be honest, probably the ideal experiment would be to train two groups of students in a technique.

One group gets the real one, the other a sham procedure, but the students don't know which they are learning.

You then see how the two groups do with real patients.

That would by necessity be a small n experiment though.

Haha. Guess they dont teach ethics in MD schools? Yeah, Zing!!


But really, you would test this as you would physical therapy. You dont need a fake OMT control group, you just compare to no OMT and let statistical analysis handle significance

 

[sylvanthus]

No you cant just compare to no OMT because just human touch alone can have a significant placebo effect. There should always be a sham treatment group.

 

[deleted103644]

Haha. Guess they dont teach ethics in MD schools? Yeah, Zing!!


But really, you would test this as you would physical therapy. You dont need a fake OMT control group, you just compare to no OMT and let statistical analysis handle significance

This is essentially what they did with the sham acupuncture trial.

I added in an extra level of blinding (so the practitioners don't know which technique they're using), but otherwise it's the same idea.

And it's perfectly ethical as long as there is no serious risk to the patients and they give informed consent.

And as the above poster pointed out, no one is denying human contact can have an effect on people. What we're denying is that you guys know what you're talking about when you emphasize one type of contact over another due to your pseudoscientific osteopathic principles.

 

[thepoopologist]

Would someone like to join me in a bombing campaign? Let's start with AOA headquarters and go from new->old

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

This is essentially what they did with the sham acupuncture trial.

I added in an extra level of blinding (so the practitioners don't know which technique they're using), but otherwise it's the same idea.

And it's perfectly ethical as long as there is no serious risk to the patients and they give informed consent.

And as the above poster pointed out, no one is denying human contact can have an effect on people. What we're denying is that you guys know what you're talking about when you emphasize one type of contact over another due to your pseudoscientific osteopathic principles.

Why not do a before and after study, similar pain condition, compare OMM to basic massage or PT methods. I.e a Quazi-experimental study.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Would someone like to join me in a bombing campaign? Let's start with AOA headquarters and go from new->old

Mon Captain! I await your orders!

 

[sylvanthus]

Why not do a before and after study, similar pain condition, compare OMM to basic massage or PT methods. I.e a Quazi-experimental study.

They would all show improvement and all claim they were the cause. Need a real control.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

They would all show improvement and all claim they were the cause. Need a real control.

Well if OMM showed more improvement? I mean that's how drug therapies are done, you compare one drug to another, the best one is obviously going to become the more prominent one?

 

[HalfListic]

No you cant just compare to no OMT because just human touch alone can have a significant placebo effect. There should always be a sham treatment group.

This is essentially what they did with the sham acupuncture trial.

I added in an extra level of blinding (so the practitioners don't know which technique they're using), but otherwise it's the same idea.

And it's perfectly ethical as long as there is no serious risk to the patients and they give informed consent.

And as the above poster pointed out, no one is denying human contact can have an effect on people. What we're denying is that you guys know what you're talking about when you emphasize one type of contact over another due to your pseudoscientific osteopathic principles.

edit: I meant to quote you too serenade...because thats the point. What if OMT is better than human touch alone? Would you discard a healing tool?



OK, so let there be a basic human touch group. I just don't think its ethical to purposefully teach something you know to false (insert your joke about OMT training here, Im sure its funny😉 ).And if you did tell the students then it wouldn't be blinded.

have a controlled human touch group with unskilled basic human touch.

Id love to see the results!

Also, it may turn out that what we need is in fact, a new nurse specialty...Human Touch nurse. After surgery, they just touch you until you're healed.😍

 

[deleted103644]

Why not do a before and after study, similar pain condition, compare OMM to basic massage or PT methods. I.e a Quazi-experimental study.

Because patients will respond differently depending upon the authority of the figure doing it. This has been shown in other studies.

 

[sylvanthus]

They already do this in omt research. They have sham treatment groups where they touch people in the same areas in the same sequence.

 

[deleted103644]

Well if OMM showed more improvement? I mean that's how drug therapies are done, you compare one drug to another, the best one is obviously going to become the more prominent one?

That's how the sham acupuncture study was set up. You still include a real control, but you need the sham control as well.

Acupuncture is more effective than nothing, but indistinguishable from sham acupuncture in terms of results.

 

[sylvanthus]

Because patients will respond differently depending upon the authority of the figure doing it. This has been shown in other studies.

Could always have doctor nurses doing it! Then youd have people with the skills of a nurse and knowledge of a doctor! Yay!

 

[deleted103644]

They already do this in omt research. They have sham treatment groups where they touch people in the same areas in the same sequence.

Post a reference. I'll check it out and get back to you. (Ideally n>100, but at least n>20.)

 

[sylvanthus]

Heh dont think a single article i reviewed had a n>100. No point in looking up specific articles as the majority i reviewed during my "omt" rotation were crap and were so flawed a premed would be embarassed.

 

[HalfListic]

Because patients will respond differently depending upon the authority of the figure doing it. This has been shown in other studies.

Just have doctors do it all...Also, if the placebo effect were so significant, as to thwart any real study of something like OMT, then we also could never study any pills. You are overstating the placebo effect and it would be relatively easy to set up OMT studies

They already do this in omt research. They have sham treatment groups where they touch people in the same areas in the same sequence.

Id like to see this too

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

That's how the sham acupuncture study was set up. You still include a real control, but you need the sham control as well.

Acupuncture is more effective than nothing, but indistinguishable from sham acupuncture in terms of results.

Yes, but if you compare Acupuncture to something like drug therapy it will obviously be nothing compared to its effect size. Which is why I'm saying, compare OMM to PT techniques.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Haha. Guess they dont teach ethics in MD schools? Yeah, Zing!!


But really, you would test this as you would physical therapy. You dont need a fake OMT control group, you just compare to no OMT and let statistical analysis handle significance

Placebo controlled study?