Do DOs match into elite academic institutions?

[itsMCJammer]

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[SpartanWolverine]

Typically only in the lowest competitiveness specialties. It would be easier for you just to look at their websites and do a little research.
For example, in a couple minutes of digging on the Hopkins websites I found: Hopkins peds has 1 DO in the department. IM doesn't note degrees. EM has two. Rads has zero.

Overall I know a couple that have gone to elite programs but they're few and far between.

 

[itsMCJammer]

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[Goro]

Been looking through some match list post from this past year as well as other DO schools (including the one I'm about to enter) and I noticed that there are rarely any people matching into elite academic institutions. I'm not talking about competitive specialties per se, but the hospital that it's at. Do you know of DOs that for example, match into Stanford, Harvard, Hopkins, UCSF, UCLA?

I'm an incoming OMS-1 student. Thanks in advance!

KCU has sent people to the Mayo Clinic; I know of other DOs who have gone to NYU, UTSW, Baylor, JHU, Stanford, UCLA, U Chicago and UCSF. The ig League Teams, not thier farm teams like UCLA-Harbor.satellites.

 

[itsMCJammer]

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[Goro]

Are they a dime a dozen though? And do you recall of what specialties?

KCU : derm at Mayo. The others were Eco-friendly specialties.

To the list above add IM at Dartmouth

 

[Moose A Moose]

DO matched plastics at UPENN without a Step 1 a year ago. Not the only example. Rare, but it happens.

 

[workaholic181]

It’s not impossible for DOs, but rarely happens for a number of reasons. Many PDs simply have a policy to not rank DO students. Elite academic institutions also stress research and it’s generally harder to get involved in that as a DO.

If you’re really gunning for a big name place, go in with the mindset that you’ll need to 1)crush boards 2) get publications 3) network 4) do away rotations at the residency in question.

DOs do match into tough specialties at huge places as mentioned above but this is largely anecdotal.

 

[Isoval]

TCOM regularly matches to Baylor and UTSW, among other places like Johns Hopkins and Mayo.

 

[MADD!!!]

Current Residents – Department of Otorhinolaryngology – Head & Neck Surgery

Scroll to the PGY-1 residents. That was this year.

 

[itsMCJammer]

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[readingrl]

The AZCOM match list over the last couple of years has included Stanford, Yale, UChicago, Mayo Clinic, UCSF and NYU. Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my heads, I know there are others. This has been in peds/FM/IM/Anesthesiology/neuro and I think one gen surg.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

How do you know with PDs or programs have that kind of policy? Can you name some that are institution wide? That's a sad reality but perhaps it might change with the new merger?

It's typically common knowledge if you ask around enough. For example the University of Michigan has never had a DO in their diagnostic radiology program and won't "for the foreseeable future". I was told this by current residents and previous graduates of the program. Usually it's not institution-wide but program specific depending on the program director's individual views.

 

[workaholic181]

How do you know with PDs or programs have that kind of policy? Can you name some that are institution wide? That's a sad reality but perhaps it might change with the new merger?

I've read it on here, and had physicians I worked for tell me that the programs they were in didnt interview DOs. It's important to note though though that this is usually not an institution wide policy. For instance, Penn IM hasn't placed a DO in decades, but there are a couple DOs there in other residency programs. Anecdotal, but I was just speaking with a neuro resident the other day (at an academic ACGME residency) who told me that some programs she was interested in discouraged her from applying by having way higher app fees for DO students than MD students. Bias is real but it is not a hard and fast rule. Again it varies by specialty which programs may or may not take DOs. A decent way to investigate it is to look up residency programs and see how many DOs are in any of their PG classes.

No one knows what the merger will bring. I'm going to an MD school but I genuinely believe the merger will be good for DOs in that now DO students who may have thought they would play it safe and only enter the AOA match rather than wait for the ACGME will now have way less risk of trying to match into ACGME residencies. With more DO students matching ACGME, I think in time some programs that are not DO friendly now may become so. But who knows.

 

[itsMCJammer]

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[SpartanWolverine]

Is this something DO school counselors working with students to accomplish their match goals would know?

Mmmm almost certainly not. To generalize, DO schools are currently hardly familiar with what it takes to get into an ACGME program... nevertheless a top academic institution.

 

[eberge3]

yes absolutely go look at match lists

 

[Instatewaiter]

DO matched plastics at UPENN without a Step 1 a year ago. Not the only example. Rare, but it happens.

People keep quoting this and when we looked at the Plastics department, there wasnt a DO there.

 

[sab3156]

Been looking through some match list post from this past year as well as other DO schools (including the one I'm about to enter) and I noticed that there are rarely any people matching into elite academic institutions. I'm not talking about competitive specialties per se, but the hospital that it's at. Do you know of DOs that for example, match into Stanford, Harvard, Hopkins, UCSF, UCLA?

I'm an incoming OMS-1 student. Thanks in advance!

Come on, it is a well-known fact that DOs rarely match into top programs. These programs rarely have a reason to touch a DO applicant with a 10 foot pole (usually the reason is some hardcore connection to the program, like the UPenn plastics match that is thrown around a lot). It's also specialty dependent. You will see more "top program" matches in Family Medicine, Pediatrics, Anesthesiology, PM&R matches (specialties that are not competitive). It is more rare for the more competitive specialties.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Not often. Neither do most MDs. It’s the top for a reason, but SDN would have you believe that everyone at every MD program is at a top program. Wtf, so like ~80% of programs are at “the top?” Lol

The DO degree is perfectly fine getting you to be a physician.

But if you want a residency in a competitive field at a top place, you should go to a top med school.

 

[Mr Kenobi]

I'm at WashU. Did my prelim medicine year here too.

They don't even have FM here.

 

[Moose A Moose]

People keep quoting this and when we looked at the Plastics department, there wasnt a DO there.

Hm. Maybe he’s the black sheep? I can assure you it’s true.

 

[fluffpop]

Come on, it is a well-known fact that DOs rarely match into top programs. These programs rarely have a reason to touch a DO applicant with a 10 foot pole (usually the reason is some hardcore connection to the program, like the UPenn plastics match that is thrown around a lot). It's also specialty dependent. You will see more "top program" matches in Family Medicine, Pediatrics, Anesthesiology, PM&R matches (specialties that are not competitive). It is more rare for the more competitive specialties.

Are top program matches feasible with hard work in something like Internal medicine, or is it a no go

 

[sab3156]

Are top program matches feasible with hard work in something like Internal medicine, or is it a no go

You are talking about programs that are filled with graduates from top 10 MD schools and have high expectations for research and board scores. Unless you do very special things like make huge connections in the field before medical school or early on, it is highly unlikely and not even worth talking about. In the upper echelon of things, the name of your school absolutely matters. For example, I know for a fact that at Harvard's IM programs they will rank a mediocre applicant from a top 10 MD school whereas they will never even interview a DO under normal circumstances. Another example is NYP's IM programs. Also, there may be a difference between "top hospital" and "top residency". For example, DOs consistely match into IM at Cleveland Clinic, but it isn't considered a top residency program by a long shot. In other specialties there are various programs that have harsh policies to exclude DOs from the beginning. Hospital for Special Surgery doesn't even allow osteopathic students to come for rotations, WashU ophthalmology does not accept residency applications from osteopathic students, etc. There are more examples.

 

[fluffpop]

You are talking about programs that are filled with graduates from top 10 MD schools and have high expectations for research and board scores. Unless you do very special things like make huge connections in the field before medical school or early on, it is highly unlikely and not even worth talking about. In the upper echelon of things, the name of your school absolutely matters. For example, I know for a fact that at Harvard's IM programs they will rank a mediocre applicant from a top 10 MD school whereas they will never even interview a DO under normal circumstances. Another example is NYP's IM programs. Also, there may be a difference between "top hospital" and "top residency". For example, DOs consistely match into IM at Cleveland Clinic, but it isn't considered a top residency program by a long shot. In other specialties there are various programs that have harsh policies to exclude DOs from the beginning. Hospital for Special Surgery doesn't even allow osteopathic students to come for rotations, WashU ophthalmology does not accept residency applications from osteopathic students, etc. There are more examples.

thank you! i'm a little early in the process, so trying to piece this together and if i sound ignorant, i apologize beforehand.

based on what i've read so far, would I be right in assuming that:

1. US MD is better than anything else, aka, the better the med school you go to, the better your chances are at a good residency compared to another person with exact same numbers & profile, for argument's sake

2. US DO is preferable to match into most residencies compared to non-US MD's. as a stellar DO applicant, you are however, less desirable than a not so stellar US MD.

3. some of the better residences would actually prefer a foreign MD over a US DO ==> unsure about this conclusion that i have drawn. if this is true, maybe it only holds for grads from the top 10 world-rank type programs, and just being very good at a good enough non-US MD school won't cut it

i understand a lot of this is conjecture, and once again i'm sorry if this sounds like im asking stupid questions

 

[workaholic181]

Are top program matches feasible with hard work in something like Internal medicine, or is it a no go

Top IM is actually competitive, as these reidencies set you up for fellowships. There are several elite MD IM residencies that do not take DOs at this time.

As for other residencies, it depends. DO bias is real but is impossible to quantify and varies from program to program and PD to PD. DOs do match into "elite" places every year. But these people are the exception. If you want to be one you gotta work hard and to the extra mile as a DO student.

 

[sab3156]

1. US MD is better than anything else, aka, the better the med school you go to, the better your chances are at a good residency compared to another person with exact same numbers & profile, for argument's sake

Correct. In numerous specialties, school name is one of the biggest factors in resident selection. Ophthalmology is one example.

2. US DO is preferable to match into most residencies compared to non-US MD's. as a stellar DO applicant, you are however, less desirable than a not so stellar US MD.

Program dependent. In New York, there is a heavy anti-DO bias whereas foreign graduates are taken regularly in several programs. Look at MGH's IM program residency roster and you will see several foreign graduates. DOs will probably never be seen there, though.

3. some of the better residences would actually prefer a foreign MD over a US DO

Program dependent, but yes, like the example of MGH.

 

[Goro]

You are talking about programs that are filled with graduates from top 10 MD schools and have high expectations for research and board scores. Unless you do very special things like make huge connections in the field before medical school or early on, it is highly unlikely and not even worth talking about. In the upper echelon of things, the name of your school absolutely matters. For example, I know for a fact that at Harvard's IM programs they will rank a mediocre applicant from a top 10 MD school whereas they will never even interview a DO under normal circumstances. Another example is NYP's IM programs. Also, there may be a difference between "top hospital" and "top residency". For example, DOs consistely match into IM at Cleveland Clinic, but it isn't considered a top residency program by a long shot. In other specialties there are various programs that have harsh policies to exclude DOs from the beginning. Hospital for Special Surgery doesn't even allow osteopathic students to come for rotations, WashU ophthalmology does not accept residency applications from osteopathic students, etc. There are more examples.

Ironically enough, NYU IM now has DOs. BUT, that's because they took over a former AOA site in Brooklyn.

Nyu PM&R has DOs.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Thanks for responding. I guess a better way to rephrase the question is which elite programs (associated with schools) are DO-friendly? I'm really interested in academic medicine.

Way too much variability for you to get a realistic answer.

DO matched plastics at UPENN without a Step 1 a year ago. Not the only example. Rare, but it happens.

You sure he didn’t have a Step?

How do you know with PDs or programs have that kind of policy? Can you name some that are institution wide? That's a sad reality but perhaps it might change with the new merger?

Again, this is way to general of a question. You won’t be able to get a straight answer.

Is this something DO school counselors working with students to accomplish their match goals would know?

Absolutely not.

Are top program matches feasible with hard work in something like Internal medicine, or is it a no go

IM is notoriously prestige driven. One of the best IM matches I’ve seen from a DO was UT Southwestwern from Touro COM and that dudes app was literally perfect. And UTSW IM is fantastic but I don’t think it’s quite on the same level as MGH, UCSF, or BWH.

People keep quoting this and when we looked at the Plastics department, there wasnt a DO there.

It’s definitely true, I have no idea what happened but when they re-did the layout of their resident roster he disappeared. He was on the old one.

 

[DrMcCoyDO]

Is this something DO school counselors working with students to accomplish their match goals would know?

In my experience, unfortunately, it’s something that many, if not most, DO school counselors don’t care about.

 

[DrMcCoyDO]

Program dependent. In New York, there is a heavy anti-DO bias whereas foreign graduates are taken regularly in several programs. Look at MGH's IM program residency roster and you will see several foreign graduates. DOs will probably never be seen there, though.

I would point out that one of the reasons for this, as conjectured in recent years, is that an incredibly large number of programs in NYC, IM in particular, are very toxic toward their residents and are primarily looking for bodies to fill spots. Definitely some programs just have no interest in the DO letters, but a large number get a huge number of IMG applicants; because, that’s a group that’s often willing to put up with a inordinate amount of stress in order to get a residency placement.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Are top program matches feasible with hard work in something like Internal medicine, or is it a no go

Medicine is very very competitive at the top programs. It is even rarer for DOs to match to top tier categorical IM programs than some of the more "competitive" specialties. Most of these programs don't interview DOs regularly.

 

[dr.grenouille]

I’m not going to deny that there’s bias when DOs apply for top residencies, because I’m sure it exists, but I think there’s a lot of confirmation bias going on that should be pointed out. Just because there aren’t as many DOs in the top programs doesn’t mean they all applied but just couldn’t match. I think we forget that many of the DO students, especially at certain schools, go into primary care because they genuinely want to. I’m from a state with a DO school that almost 100% of the students want to stay close to home and have no interest in academic medicine or getting a top residency. Many of them were my classmates in college when I was a premed and a couple of them even turned down acceptances at MD schools because the DO school was closer to home and their passion was family med. Just something to think about that could skew our perceptions when we see less DOs in top schools.

 

[Dr.Bruh]

I’m not going to deny that there’s bias when DOs apply for top residencies, because I’m sure it exists, but I think there’s a lot of confirmation bias going on that should be pointed out. Just because there aren’t as many DOs in the top programs doesn’t mean they all applied but just couldn’t match. I think we forget that many of the DO students, especially at certain schools, go into primary care because they genuinely want to. I’m from a state with a DO school that almost 100% of the students want to stay close to home and have no interest in academic medicine or getting a top residency. Many of them were my classmates in college when I was a premed and a couple of them even turned down acceptances at MD schools because the DO school was closer to home and their passion was family med. Just something to think about that could skew our perceptions when we see less DOs in top schools.

This. Selection bias people. The vast majority of DO student do not give a damn or have a major interest in matching into an “elite academic institution”. If we did we probably wouldn’t have went to a DO school. Most of us jut want to match into a residency if our choice in a nice place to live. Nobody in my class (with 1-2 exceptions) seems to have any interest Matching at the top program. They just want to match

 

[fluffpop]

This. Selection bias people. The vast majority of DO student do not give a damn or have a major interest in matching into an “elite academic institution”. If we did we probably wouldn’t have went to a DO school. Most of us jut want to match into a residency if our choice in a nice place to live. Nobody in my class (with 1-2 exceptions) seems to have any interest Matching at the top program. They just want to match

This is interesting! I was talking to my advisor and she used the analogy of liberal arts vs big research University for DO vs MD applicants. Obviously it's flawed in several ways but as a liberal arts grad I can understand why this would be. It doesn't have to be about merit it's often about interest too.

 

[Goro]

I’m not going to deny that there’s bias when DOs apply for top residencies, because I’m sure it exists, but I think there’s a lot of confirmation bias going on that should be pointed out. Just because there aren’t as many DOs in the top programs doesn’t mean they all applied but just couldn’t match. I think we forget that many of the DO students, especially at certain schools, go into primary care because they genuinely want to. I’m from a state with a DO school that almost 100% of the students want to stay close to home and have no interest in academic medicine or getting a top residency. Many of them were my classmates in college when I was a premed and a couple of them even turned down acceptances at MD schools because the DO school was closer to home and their passion was family med. Just something to think about that could skew our perceptions when we see less DOs in top schools.

This. Selection bias people. The vast majority of DO student do not give a damn or have a major interest in matching into an “elite academic institution”. If we did we probably wouldn’t have went to a DO school. Most of us jut want to match into a residency if our choice in a nice place to live. Nobody in my class (with 1-2 exceptions) seems to have any interest Matching at the top program. They just want to match

This, big time. My school gets a fair amount of very good, MD caliber students out of the UC system who want to stay on our side of the Mississippi. To them, my DO school >> Drexel or Albany.

And extra ditto tot he interest in PC. I had a conversation not too long ago with a very good OMSIII (soon to be IV) who has eyes on IM. He had a very good Step I score. I recommended him aiming for some good IM residencies, but nope, his first choice is one the Kaisers in So Cal. As you can guess, this student is also a Golden Stater.

 

[DrMcCoyDO]

Hm, I'm an incoming OMS-I and want to do residency in NYC (no substantial ties to the area, just have always wanted to live there for a period in my life). Do you know of any decent (meaning solid prestige and a nontoxic environment) NYC programs of any specialties that take DO's?

Honestly, it depends on what specialty you end up going into, and trust me, as an OMS-I, you almost definitely don’t have that figured out yet. For my specialty (emergency), I know a couple good programs in the NYC and surrounding area that are also DO friendly, but as a fresh PGY-1 that’s still learning the lay of the land, I really don’t know much more than that.

 

[DrMcCoyDO]

Hm, I'm an incoming OMS-I and want to do residency in NYC (no substantial ties to the area, just have always wanted to live there for a period in my life). Do you know of any decent (meaning solid prestige and a nontoxic environment) NYC programs of any specialties that take DO's?

One suggestion when you get to the point of applications/interviews, look at what schools the residents come from at the programs you’re applying to. If there are a handful or
more of DOs, you know it’s a DO friendly program. If there are a lot of IMGs (more than just a few) at a program in NYC, you’ll know that for some reason, that’s probably a less competitive program to match into, which in a competitive market like NYC, that could (but not definitely) be a sign of a toxic program.

 

[Goro]

Hm, I'm an incoming OMS-I and want to do residency in NYC (no substantial ties to the area, just have always wanted to live there for a period in my life). Do you know of any decent (meaning solid prestige and a nontoxic environment) NYC programs of any specialties that take DO's?

NYU PM&R
NYU IM in Brooklyn (former AOA site)

Do a google search on , say "NYITCOM match list 2018" and see what you get.

 

[MADD!!!]

NYU PM&R
NYU IM in Brooklyn (former AOA site)

Do a google search on , say "NYITCOM match list 2018" and see what you get.

PCOM also got a student into NYU pm&r this year.

 

[sab3156]

This. Selection bias people. The vast majority of DO student do not give a damn or have a major interest in matching into an “elite academic institution”. If we did we probably wouldn’t have went to a DO school. Most of us jut want to match into a residency if our choice in a nice place to live. Nobody in my class (with 1-2 exceptions) seems to have any interest Matching at the top program. They just want to match

You don't know what you are talking about, unfortunately. Your post only tells me that you have never spoken to academic faculty or PDs at top programs in any specialty. There isn't a selection bias if the vast majority of these top programs consistently refuse to interview the handful of elite DO applicants year after year. Go ask in the subspecialty forums.

 

[DrMcCoyDO]

You don't know what you are talking about, unfortunately. Your post only tells me that you have never spoken to academic faculty or PDs at top programs in any specialty. There isn't a selection bias if the vast majority of these top programs consistently refuse to interview the handful of elite DO applicants year after year. Go ask in the subspecialty forums.

You know, selection bias can exist alongside DO discrimination. They’re not mutually exclusive.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

You don't know what you are talking about, unfortunately. Your post only tells me that you have never spoken to academic faculty or PDs at top programs in any specialty. There isn't a selection bias if the vast majority of these top programs consistently refuse to interview the handful of elite DO applicants year after year. Go ask in the subspecialty forums.

I think you and @Dr.Bruh are actually mostly on the same page. I agree with Dr. Bruh that many of my classmates had no interest in academic medicine. They had no interest in research. They had no interest in taking and doing well on the USMLE. Most wanted to go FM/IM/peds at community programs and most did.

However, I also agree that top DO applicants (the 1-2 people in Dr.Bruh's class) with competitive CVs get the short end of the stick when it comes to top residencies. Don't think they were suggesting otherwise.
Edit: agree with what @DrMcCoyDO said above.

 

[sab3156]

You know, selection bias can exist alongside DO discrimination. They’re not mutually exclusive.

My point is that even if all the applicants applied to these same programs that have been outright refusing to interview all DOs, you are gonna get the same results. No interviews. The selection bias argument is weak. Sometimes DOs sneak by for whatever reason, but no top residency program (outside of uncompetitive specialties) is going to be filling up their roster with DOs. Top programs in uncompetitive specialties, though, have been fine for DOs for a long time.

 

[DrMcCoyDO]

My point is that even if all the applicants applied to these same programs that have been outright refusing to interview all DOs, you are gonna get the same results. No interviews. The selection bias argument is weak. Sometimes DOs sneak by for whatever reason, but no top residency program (outside of uncompetitive specialties) is going to be filling up their roster with DOs. Top programs in uncompetitive specialties, though, have been fine for DOs for a long time.

Definitely no argument from me there. My only point was that you also don’t see a large number of DOs matching into lower tier programs in more competitive specialties, and much of that is because of selection bias towards more primary care. But yeah, most top programs will barely give the time of day to an MD who’s not from a top 20 MD school, let alone a DO school.

 

[Dr.Bruh]

You don't know what you are talking about, unfortunately. Your post only tells me that you have never spoken to academic faculty or PDs at top programs in any specialty. There isn't a selection bias if the vast majority of these top programs consistently refuse to interview the handful of elite DO applicants year after year. Go ask in the subspecialty forums.

Don’t misrepresent my point

You don't know what you are talking about, unfortunately. Your post only tells me that you have never spoken to academic faculty or PDs at top programs in any specialty. There isn't a selection bias if the vast majority of these top programs consistently refuse to interview the handful of elite DO applicants year after year. Go ask in the subspecialty forums.

You're misrepresenting me. I’m not at all denying DO bias at most top programs. I’m saying that DO applicants are aware of this yet still apply and attend DO programs bc many do not care about trying to train at a top residency. If they did they wouldn’t apply.

 

[itsMCJammer]

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[sab3156]

On a similar topic

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/NRMP-2018-Program-Director-Survey-for-WWW.pdf
Just proves DO applicants are "seldom" or "never" ranked or interviewed for competitive specialties.

Yeah, everyone knows that already.

Thank you to everyone for the insight. I'll be on the lookout for opportunities or more progressive thinking elite academic institutions who are willing to bring a DO on board to their team.

You haven't even started school yet. Why don't you first see how you do on Step 1 and get some research going before talking about how you as a DO student are going to find your way into a residency at a top program?

 

[itsMCJammer]

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[AlbinoHawk DO]

Been looking through some match list post from this past year as well as other DO schools (including the one I'm about to enter) and I noticed that there are rarely any people matching into elite academic institutions. I'm not talking about competitive specialties per se, but the hospital that it's at. Do you know of DOs that for example, match into Stanford, Harvard, Hopkins, UCSF, UCLA?

I'm an incoming OMS-1 student. Thanks in advance!

Met 2 Touro DO that went to UCSF psych, know a Western DO that went to Duke neurology, another DO went to derm at Cleveland Clinic, 1 pathology at UCLA reagan, another path at WashU and have heard of DOs at Stanford PMR. If your goal is elite academic institutions, you made a mistake by going to DO school. It's not impossible, but it's damn near impossible. Also, don't think a high step is all it takes. I've seen 250+ land at low-tier for non-competitive specialties