DO Faculty at Allopathic Institutions

[DocEspana]

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I still can't tell if you're being serious or not. Aren't the guy that wants to do IM at Sinai even though they've never accepted a DO? How is that equal?

Dead serious. There are ~160 medical schools in america (both degrees). 130 of them are roughly on level playing field. the top 30 or so have sinai, cedars-sinai, or CP as their home hospitals, which is an obvious advantage. But the other 130 have *very roughly* the same opportunity. I dont think you'll find many howard, northeastern ohio, or even VCM (or whatever VCU is calling their medical school nowadays) graduates in these prestigious places either. Its roughly equivalent difficulty. If you're not coming from a top 30 program or applying to a top 30 program's hospital (or equivalent "elite in its program" hospitals) you can really expect to be judged on various criteria mostly based on your individual worth as your school isnt gonna do much for you either way in these cases unless its your home institution youre applying to.

and me personally. I'm trying to backdoor it in with favors ontop of board scores. So I'm not the best person to speak about pure merit; IDK if it will work though so I may need to rely on actual merit

 

[scrubbedup]

did I imply that? If so it was an error . I wanted to say that all schools are roughly equal in the residency application process unless you're a top 10

Sorry Doc, I was agreeing with you actually. I did have a "agreed" after your quote but somehow that went away. 😀

 

[willen101383]

You guys know I fully support the DO route right? I just dont believe in sweeping issues under the rug and pretending theyre not issues. If we work hard we will all match places we are happy with...ivory tower or not.


And espana...I am gunning for hopkins EM haha. Long shot but hey they do take DOs at around 2-3 per year!

 

[ToldYouSo]

Dead serious. There are ~160 medical schools in america (both degrees). 130 of them are roughly on level playing field. the top 30 or so have sinai, cedars-sinai, or CP as their home hospitals, which is an obvious advantage. But the other 130 have *very roughly* the same opportunity. I dont think you'll find many howard, northeastern ohio, or even VCM (or whatever VCU is calling their medical school nowadays) graduates in these prestigious places either. Its roughly equivalent difficulty. If you're not coming from a top 30 program or applying to a top 30 program's hospital (or equivalent "elite in its program" hospitals) you can really expect to be judged on various criteria mostly based on your individual worth as your school isnt gonna do much for you either way in these cases unless its your home institution youre applying to.

and me personally. I'm trying to backdoor it in with favors ontop of board scores. So I'm not the best person to speak about pure merit; IDK if it will work though so I may need to rely on actual merit

Really good points; which also support the fact that when you don't the outliers most medical students have roughly equal opportunities. The fact that certain top programs have a DO-bias is irrelevant if your comparing an average MD/DO student with average board scores.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Dead serious. There are ~160 medical schools in america (both degrees). 130 of them are roughly on level playing field. the top 30 or so have sinai, cedars-sinai, or CP as their home hospitals, which is an obvious advantage. But the other 130 have *very roughly* the same opportunity. I dont think you'll find many howard, northeastern ohio, or even VCM (or whatever VCU is calling their medical school nowadays) graduates in these prestigious places either. Its roughly equivalent difficulty.

I think you are a bit off base with regard to the bolded. You should know better since I am a frequent poster on here and graduated from VCU and am now at JHH.

Let's compare PCOM- the only program even remotely notable on their match list is UPMC (pitt)x 2. No other big name hospitals not even HUP or CHOP and they are in the same damn city as Penn. http://www.pcom.edu/student_life/student_affairs_main/match_list.html

What about DMU-No elite hosptials. A few notable ones: a few to UTSW, two to mayo (PMR and FM) and 1 to Emory. Of course that's with a class size of over 200. http://www.dmu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/COM-2011-residencies-by-specialty.pdf

CCOM- No elite, but a few notables: 1 to UVA, 1 to mayo, 1 to UPMC. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=9503216&postcount=130

You get the idea. Now let's compare VCU and howard:
VCU 2010- JHHx4, dukex4, UNCx3, Yale, Emoryx4, MGH(Harvard) Cedars sinai, Pittx4, Mayo, UTSWx2. In the last 2 years VCU has sent graduates to basically every major hospital in the country (Hopkins, MGH (harvard), BIDMC (harvard), UCSF, Duke, U Penn, Yale, UPMC, UTSW, UVA, Emory, Mayo, UNC, Stanford, UCLA). Seriously, compare that to the above.

Now for howard- The most recent I could find was their 2008 match list- Brigham and Womens (harvard), Yale x 2, Hopkins (JHH), UCSF, Duke x2, Pitt, Childrens in DC, UNC, Emory. (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=8288594&postcount=37)

Please don't just post your gestault without having some evidence to back it up. The match lists put your hypothesis to rest.

And espana...I am gunning for hopkins EM haha. Long shot but hey they do take DOs at around 2-3 per year!

Hopkins EM is not that competitive and it's not that good of a program. It's not even the best program in Baltimore. Since Shock/trauma is in Baltimore a lot of the acute stuff goes there instead of hopkins. Hopkins may still have the name but it really lacks the training of a good program.

 

[DocEspana]

Oh well my bad. My gf's best friend just graduated vcu and told me her match list was crappy this year when compared to how it normally fares (and she's not too hot on it previous performances normally either). Took her word for it without checking the math.

But you have school like touro ny matching at least 1 to Yale new haven, Walter reed, and mayo on their first graduating class. (for what Idk. I honestly imagine anesthesia or ER). Some impressive things are possible, but as with any school, its really rare and takes someone special. I'm no DO idealist, we deal with a smaller pool of rare talents, but I don't think the degree itself bars you anywhere but a few backwater programs and a few super elite programs. 'notable' are possible, and education seems plenty possible. Just need to acknowledge its uncommon for anyone to do these things, regardless of egree.

 

[willen101383]

I think you are a bit off base with regard to the bolded. You should know better since I am a frequent poster on here and graduated from VCU and am now at JHH.

Let's compare PCOM- the only program even remotely notable on their match list is UPMC (pitt)x 2. No other big name hospitals not even HUP or CHOP and they are in the same damn city as Penn. http://www.pcom.edu/student_life/student_affairs_main/match_list.html

What about DMU-No elite hosptials. A few notable ones: a few to UTSW, two to mayo (PMR and FM) and 1 to Emory. Of course that's with a class size of over 200. http://www.dmu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/COM-2011-residencies-by-specialty.pdf

CCOM- No elite, but a few notables: 1 to UVA, 1 to mayo, 1 to UPMC. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=9503216&postcount=130

You get the idea. Now let's compare VCU and howard:
VCU 2010- JHHx4, dukex4, UNCx3, Yale, Emoryx4, MGH(Harvard) Cedars sinai, Pittx4, Mayo, UTSWx2. In the last 2 years VCU has sent graduates to basically every major hospital in the country (Hopkins, MGH (harvard), BIDMC (harvard), UCSF, Duke, U Penn, Yale, UPMC, UTSW, UVA, Emory, Mayo, UNC, Stanford, UCLA). Seriously, compare that to the above.

Now for howard- The most recent I could find was their 2008 match list- Brigham and Womens (harvard), Yale x 2, Hopkins (JHH), UCSF, Duke x2, Pitt, Childrens in DC, UNC, Emory. (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=8288594&postcount=37)

Please don't just post your gestault without having some evidence to back it up. The match lists put your hypothesis to rest.



Hopkins EM is not that competitive and it's not that good of a program. It's not even the best program in Baltimore. Since Shock/trauma is in Baltimore a lot of the acute stuff goes there instead of hopkins. Hopkins may still have the name but it really lacks the training of a good program.

Care to elaborate more? What exactly does the program lack? What are things to look for in a good program? What is shock trauma? Another hospital? I have heard good things about the program...and it takes DOs unlike pretty much every other "ivory tower" school. Good to hear from someone on the inside. As an m2 I am starting to research programs etc/figure out what the deal is.

 

[koennen]

[/B]What is shock trauma? Another hospital?

I think he's referring to the Univ. of Md. Shock Trauma Center

http://www.umm.edu/shocktrauma/

 

[DocEspana]

[/B]

Care to elaborate more? What exactly does the program lack? What are things to look for in a good program? What is shock trauma? Another hospital? I have heard good things about the program...and it takes DOs unlike pretty much every other "ivory tower" school. Good to hear from someone on the inside. As an m2 I am starting to research programs etc/figure out what the deal is.

In the same area as Hopkins is the best trauma program in the country. to be hobest, I think there is another better program within MD as well that's also above Hopkins for ER. He program is undoubtedly good, he's just saying its not elite.

How are these measured? Professional opinion and quality of cases seen. That's how it was explained to me. It's not 100% objective, but having the #1 program in the country down the road makes it easy to say huh. ER program is less than that. There are plenty of situations like that. NY Presbyterian is the crime of the crop for many things, but Harlem hospital, a generally Junky hospital, is the level 1 trauma program for the area, not NYP. It means whatever er NYP has os probably less impressive than youd assume as the trauma cases in that neighborhood go to harlem if possible (or bellevue of you have a crazy trauma emergency and fast transportation).

Silver lining: shock trauma takes DOs for the fellowship.

 

[willen101383]

I think you are a bit off base with regard to the bolded. You should know better since I am a frequent poster on here and graduated from VCU and am now at JHH.

Let's compare PCOM- the only program even remotely notable on their match list is UPMC (pitt)x 2. No other big name hospitals not even HUP or CHOP and they are in the same damn city as Penn. http://www.pcom.edu/student_life/student_affairs_main/match_list.html

What about DMU-No elite hosptials. A few notable ones: a few to UTSW, two to mayo (PMR and FM) and 1 to Emory. Of course that's with a class size of over 200. http://www.dmu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/COM-2011-residencies-by-specialty.pdf

CCOM- No elite, but a few notables: 1 to UVA, 1 to mayo, 1 to UPMC. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=9503216&postcount=130

You get the idea. Now let's compare VCU and howard:
VCU 2010- JHHx4, dukex4, UNCx3, Yale, Emoryx4, MGH(Harvard) Cedars sinai, Pittx4, Mayo, UTSWx2. In the last 2 years VCU has sent graduates to basically every major hospital in the country (Hopkins, MGH (harvard), BIDMC (harvard), UCSF, Duke, U Penn, Yale, UPMC, UTSW, UVA, Emory, Mayo, UNC, Stanford, UCLA). Seriously, compare that to the above.

Now for howard- The most recent I could find was their 2008 match list- Brigham and Womens (harvard), Yale x 2, Hopkins (JHH), UCSF, Duke x2, Pitt, Childrens in DC, UNC, Emory. (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=8288594&postcount=37)

Please don't just post your gestault without having some evidence to back it up. The match lists put your hypothesis to rest.



Hopkins EM is not that competitive and it's not that good of a program. It's not even the best program in Baltimore. Since Shock/trauma is in Baltimore a lot of the acute stuff goes there instead of hopkins. Hopkins may still have the name but it really lacks the training of a good program.

http://nucleus.pcom.edu/cps/pcom_content/StdAffairs/Career/DO/Match_List_2011_Philadelphia.pdf


and yeah I agree...its sort of a punch in the gut from all the other Philly schools that they dont take too many PCOM grads. We routinely have lecturers from jeff/penn/drexel so yeah...dont really know what to say.
FWIW here is PCOMs match list from last year.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Oh well my bad. My gf's best friend just graduated vcu and told me her match list was crappy this year when compared to how it normally fares (and she's not too hot on it previous performances normally either). Took her word for it without checking the math.

But you have school like touro ny matching at least 1 to Yale new haven, Walter reed, and mayo on their first graduating class. (for what Idk. I honestly imagine anesthesia or ER). Some impressive things are possible, but as with any school, its really rare and takes someone special. I'm no DO idealist, we deal with a smaller pool of rare talents, but I don't think the degree itself bars you anywhere but a few backwater programs and a few super elite programs.

No worries. I think all schools saw it harder to match this last year which makes Touro's first class even more impressive.

I agree, especially for EM, anesthesia and some other specialties that DOs have made huge inroads in the last few years. I don't want to down play those DO accomplishments and I should probably highlight that those "notable" matches still opens major doors for fellowships.

In the same area as Hopkins is the best trauma program in the country. to be hobest, I think there is another better program within MD as well that's also above Hopkins for ER. He program is undoubtedly good, he's just saying its not elite.

Silver lining: shock trauma takes DOs for the fellowship.

Yup, shock-trauma is right down the road from Hopkins. Beause of that, the exposure their EM residents get is a bit better. Hopkins still rotates at shock-trauma but that is very different than doing all of your training there.

I think the take home lesson is that you shouldn't just rely on the name (especially from EM) because often the name doesn't = good training. For medicine the better name programs tend to offer the most greuling training but for many other things, that just isnt the case.

Sure Hopkins has a big name so it might seem that their EM program would be incredibly strong but having arguably the best trauma center in the country right down the road makes the exposure weaker. So in the end, the most important thing for clinical residency training is the amount of exposure, autonomy and the volume of cases.

 

[Instatewaiter]

http://nucleus.pcom.edu/cps/pcom_content/StdAffairs/Career/DO/Match_List_2011_Philadelphia.pdf


and yeah I agree...its sort of a punch in the gut from all the other Philly schools that they dont take too many PCOM grads. We routinely have lecturers from jeff/penn/drexel so yeah...dont really know what to say.
FWIW here is PCOMs match list from last year.

I have to say, I was a bit surprised when I first saw the PCOM match lists a few years ago. You'd think that Penn would be friendlier to people who probably rotate there. For instance, TCOM gets a lot of love from UTSW even for their medicine residency which many put on the same level as MGH/brigham/hopkins/penn/columbia. You'd think the south would be less friendly to DOs but definitely not for TCOM.

 

[willen101383]

I have to say, I was a bit surprised when I first saw the PCOM match lists a few years ago. You'd think that Penn would be friendlier to people who probably rotate there. For instance, TCOM gets a lot of love from UTSW even for their medicine residency which many put on the same level as MGH/brigham/hopkins/penn/columbia. You'd think the south would be less friendly to DOs but definitely not for TCOM.

The only IM match on that list to a philly program was pennsylvania hospital...dont know much about the program..just that its Penn's community hospital.

Oh..and hahnemann. My cousin is an IM resident at hahnemann and he has mixed things to say about the program.

I do see Strong memorial on there....that seems pretty solid no? I grew up in upstate NY so I know Strong has a pretty good reputation.