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DO/FMG applicants to top-tiers...

Discussion in 'Anesthesiology' started by sean wilson, Nov 17, 2005.

  1. sean wilson

    sean wilson Membership Revoked
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    I've seen a few people write reviews of programs based upon what they claim to have experienced while interviewing at them. Most of the upper-levels do not really want people from non-elite programs. This includes DO schools and FMGs. Before people get themselves worked up, ask yourselves why this might actually be the case. For one, programs like Harvard are, in some part, prestigious because of the places their residents come from. While this is somewhat circular logic, it's how they generally operate. It's true that there is a DO in the Yale CA-1 class (I know him and he's a good resident) but that's the exception. Most people at the top programs are from other upper-level places.

    Perhaps you too will be one of the exceptions, and I wish everyone the best of luck in the match. Just don't get too upset when people post what's basically well known about certain places, Hopkins included.

    As about the letter that Savarese sent all his incoming residents a year or so ago explaining that there would be nobody from low-level programs matching if you're still doubtful. I know you can read about it via the search function.
     
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  3. Idiopathic

    Idiopathic Newly Minted
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    Wow, thanks for the post. You are a good internet friend.

    :rolleyes:
     
  4. Sugar72

    Sugar72 Senior Member
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    I don't get this post - are you saying that there are people on this forum pretending like they interviewed at top tier places and writing interview reveiws? I think if I were going to make up a fantasy life and display it on an anonymous message board - I would have more imagination than to do it on an anesthesiology message board - maybe a filthy rich princess web site...
     
  5. sean wilson

    sean wilson Membership Revoked
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    there are people being attacked as frauds for pointing out snobbiness of various programs. It tells me more about those who get defensive about this as it relates their chances of matching more than anything else. I haven't followed every thread on this, and it's certainly possible that somebody might be trying to disuade others from applying to their top choice, but overall it sounds like most people are speaking from experience.
     
  6. driverabu

    driverabu www.riograndband.com
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    Are all of these people who are pointing out snobbiness at these programs DOs/IMGs? I would venture to say that there are several US grads also speaking of the snobbiness of these elite programs
     
  7. VentdependenT

    VentdependenT You didnt build thaT
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    I have a piece of adivce.

    APPLY WHEREVER YOU WANT.
     
  8. hermione

    hermione Senior Member
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    This whole entire thread is confusing to me. I feel like I missed something. Then again, I am only a DO student, so I guess I should keep my expectations for myself low. :D
     
  9. sean wilson

    sean wilson Membership Revoked
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    Reread the Hopkins posts, etc. where you'll see flagrant character attacks when people say things that are true but painful to some applicants. The thread was more a comment on that type of response that really shouldn't be here.
     
  10. ripped cheese

    ripped cheese Junior Member
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    there are many solid DO/FMG students in great programs in the past. reason being there weren't enough solid US grads going into anesthesia. i think we all know that this year will be quite different. i've been to 1 cali, 2 chicago, and 1 boston interview and so far no DOs at these interviews.

    yes, there are solid students at DO/FMG schools that would be great docs. but c'mon, there's a reason MCAT, USMLE scores are higher at MD schools. and i would guess 99.9% of all DO students would jump to get into an MD school. sucks that the competition for anesthesia is really high this year...but what can you do.
     
  11. VentdependenT

    VentdependenT You didnt build thaT
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    Lets see how match works out this year mmmk.

    The whole tier business isn't even mentioned in the graduate level world from what I can see. All I hear is this program works hard, or they suck, or yeah I think that place is ok. Its ALL word of mouth too. For what its worth thats my little opinion.
     
  12. sean wilson

    sean wilson Membership Revoked
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    "The whole tier business isn't even mentioned in the graduate level world from what I can see."

    Because it does, at least when one's applying to fellowships or academic positions.

    For private practice, it doesn't--at least in the current climate.
     
  13. Idiopathic

    Idiopathic Newly Minted
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    I have to add that I have been the only DO Ive seen at WashU, UTSW, Florida, UVA...Im sure there will be other cases as well. It doesnt exactly fill me with confidence.
     
  14. me454555

    me454555 Senior Member
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    Just last year we had DO from my school match at USC. Seems like a pretty good school to me. Bottom line, an MD w/a 185 and 2.0 gpa will not get a spot over a DO w/a 230 and 3.5 gpa. DOs may not be on an even playing field but we can still match just fine. Don't think that the MD after your name makes THAT much difference
     
  15. sean wilson

    sean wilson Membership Revoked
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    "Bottom line, an MD w/a 185 and 2.0 gpa will not get a spot over a DO w/a 230 and 3.5 gpa."

    One would certainly hope not!

    LMAO!
     
  16. VentdependenT

    VentdependenT You didnt build thaT
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    How much so?

    I would imagine if the motivated resident could land a fellowship granted they did some research, or at least tried to, networked, and asked the right people for guidance (at any residency). Although pain medicine seems to be hot right now I believe that my previous statement would be just as applicable.

    I'm under the impression that if you work hard, intellegently so, that the right people will notice you. That way you can approach these folks for help and they won't feel its a waste of their time to steer you in the appropriate direction.

    Thats my take at least. In fact I don't see anyone scrambling at the moment to get into academics or any other fellowship other than pain. Thats some pretty damn wide open territory if you ask me.

    Anypoops I'm probably critical care bound. Me likey.
     
  17. jenjas

    jenjas REDSOXNATION
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    Man, is it just me, or do this years threads, and candidates for the most part sound like a bunch of "catty" teenagers? Everybody needs to chill out!

    A wise fortune cookie told me once, "Don't worry about everyone else, just worry about yourself." Like Vent said, just wait for the match results to come out.................I think you will be suprised. I'm a US IMG and was told this same B.S. last year, and matched at my numero uno. Thank god I'm at a program where our PD picks the most "qualified candidate" and could care less whether their US/DO/FMG. We all passed the same tests. Just some of us spent more $$, and got better tans in the process of doing it. :laugh:

    Good luck everyone..........

    Dr. Evil
     
  18. hermione

    hermione Senior Member
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    A wise fortune cookie told me once, "Don't worry about everyone else, just worry about yourself."



    The best SDN advice I've seen in a while. Good luck!
     
  19. OldManDave

    OldManDave Fossil Bouncer Emeritus
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    LOL!! ROFLMAOPIP!!

    Sean,

    You are crackin me up! This is not even a creative way to troll! For the most part, except for a few - very few - programs who are way full of themselves, the MD v DO debate is a non-issue. In fact, a true elite program does not concern itself over petty crap like the illegible initials behind your illegible signature. They recruit the people who they are confident will do the best job, work hard, do the reading, gets along well with their colleagues & do well on the board exams. Those are the key parameters that real elite, not merely snobby, programs seek in their applicants.

    Were to poll real residents, not other medical student & definitely not pre-meds, you would see that you are beating a dead horse. But, this is America & you are fully entitled to believe as you wish...many have fought & died to preserve this right for you. I truly hope that your experiences as a physician-in-training open your eyes to a broader reality & respect for all of your physician colleagues, irrespective of MD, DO or IMG.

    I wish you the best of luck & success!
     
  20. sean wilson

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    The issue is so sensitive for DOs that they'll accuse you of doing anything but what you're really doing--decrying nastiness in self-conscious applicants.

    As for the issue of being a DO or an MD, I'm glad you're happy with your choice, Dave. I'm sure you're a great physician and your patients love you as they do your MD counterparts.
     
  21. Idiopathic

    Idiopathic Newly Minted
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    Here is my $0.02:

    Ten years ago, anesthesiology was not a very desirable specialty for US MD grads, apparently. And as such, it was seen as a specialty that would be easier for non-US MD's and DO's to get into. The reality has changed rapidly, but perhaps the perception has changed more gradually. There are programs who likely guess that their colleagues have been guilty of training what they would consider substandard applicants, and they may feel that they need to reassure their residents that they will not settle for less qualified applicants (read: they dont need to). The alleged letter from Savarese doesnt really bother me, because NY has a DO school, they have several FMG-friendly residencies and hospitals and if that was a concern of mine, it would be a greater concern in NYC (language/cultural barriers, etc.) Also, they are a program that has their pick of upper-tier candidates and has little need to go way down on the old ROL and accidentally snag a DO or FMG if they dont want to.

    What does bother me is the seemingly blanket disregard for students of osteopathic medical coleges by some of these programs. I know that this year, things are totally different. App #'s have increased by anywhere from 20-50%, programs have more candidates and more apps in general to sift through, there are more competitive applicants, and even someone who is very competitive will be denied consideration at many programs. I know that some of the MD students who post here probably have zero rejections at this point. I was disappointed to get as many as I did (although overall, Im very happy).

    I guess what bothers me is that, at the end of the day, at some programs, a 3.9/250 from a DO school is not considered as an acceptable applicant wheres a 3.6/225 from an MD school often is. I started this process very confident (overly so?) and applied only to what I reasoned were top tier programs, with a few fallbacks. I have been awakened, somewhat, by the realities of the situation: some programs will never consider a DO, some will always consider a DO, and at some, if you are a DO, you have to be somewhat better at everything than the average MD that they interview, in order to be considered.

    With all of this, I would not have changed my career path, for reasons discussed previously. The only thing I might do differently is to apply a little wider and not apply to programs that obviously fall into the first category above. Also, while I consider myself competitive, I know that I am not the perfect candidate, and Im sure that being a DO may not have much of an impact on rejection at some places. I may not have enough research, my PS may be too bland, etc. I try not to blame my rejections on being a DO, but it is hard when you see people with lesser 'stats' getting interviews you were denied, for whatever reason. It stings no matter where you went to medical school. But medical school is a part of residency apps, and the perceived caliber of your school needs to be considered as well. Its an important factor in residency selection.

    Its easy to argue for either side.

    Just some ramblings as I sift through this crazy process. I hope nobody takes offense.
     
  22. toughlife

    toughlife Resident
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    Your take on your perceived inability to get interviews is interesting. I am sure there are many programs that are biased against DOs for, who knows what reason.
    As an MD student from a top 10 allopathic school, I tell you that it is not your DO degree that is keeping you from getting interviews. I have a 219 step 1, lots of research, pretty good grades, good LORs, multilingual, etc and I have received 15 rejections and 11 interviews , got rejected by all except 1 Cali program, rejected by Umich and all (except one) of the chicago programs, no responses from Mayo-Rochester, University of Arizona, miami, etc which are middle of the road programs.

    So I basically have gotten the FUs and "in your dreams" from many schools I thought I had a good shot at getting interviews. The process is rather strange. I got upset at the beginning and then decided that I will make the best of the interviews I have and find my fit within those 11 programs.

    So just take them lemons and make a good ass lemonade.
     
  23. Idiopathic

    Idiopathic Newly Minted
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    Im certainly not trying to spout any anti-DO conspiracy theory. Its obviously a factor for some schools, and that their prerogative.

    This brings up an interesting question. Who has heard from U of Arizona? Not a peep here either. I thought that was kind of odd.

    Also, knowing that some programs use Step 1 as a cutoff (its been discussed before) do you think that you just missed the cutoff at some of your places? I heard 220 bandied about (Northwestern, maybe?)...that would absolutely suck, but another example of arbitrary 'standards', I suppose. It must be very difficult otherwise, since every candidate likely has something in their app that makes them attractive to a program.
     
  24. ripped cheese

    ripped cheese Junior Member
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    look, where you go to school will ALWAYS have some say in this, and future, process. yes, MD schools will have a big advantage over DO schools. but in the same case, a stanford grad will have an easier time than say a temple or creighton. you think this is unfair? i don't think so...

    i'm willing to say that the numbers state it. those who come from more elite schools (stanford/ucsf/wash u > other MD schools > DO schools) will score better IN GENERAL than others. they have a history of churning out stellar applicants that produce well-known docs.

    i know most (not all though) DO students are ones that went after being rejected (or not wanting the humiliation of rejection) from MD schools. that has a say in the residency process and i'm sure the "easier to get in" comes into play. this whole elitist mentality is prevalent in every part of life and we just deal...
     
  25. bullard

    bullard Senior Member
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    Northwestern says they "prefer" applicants who've scored >= 215 on their website. I think the absolute 220 Step 1 cutoff is a rarity -- my step 1 was sub-220 and I've gotten interviews from some top places that you'd think would need to use cutoffs just based on the number of applicants. Maybe they factor in Step 2 or average them?

    I'm pretty sure being a DO is a liability, just like going to a lower-ranked MD school is a liability as opposed to going to Harvard. Not saying that's the way it should be, but I think that may be just the way it is. I have a friend who's met a bunch of derm applicants at transitional interviews who didn't think derm was very competitive this year! WTF?! They were getting multiple interviews with few rejections despite average board scores, grades, etc. But of course, they were students at Hopkins, Columbia, etc. Moral of the story: if you want to go to a top anesthesia program, score >40 on the MCAT! :)

    Another big factor that I think people forget is region. If you don't have some kind of California connection (originally from the area, went to college there), it's gonna be tough to get interviews. The PD at the program where I did my away flatly told me he'll rank a good applicant who's got family in the same area over a great applicant who has absolutely no connection whatsoever to the region. The great applicant probably just applied because of the name of the program and may or may not be serious about coming. His reasoning, for what it's worth. I think he's right, as I've heard either nothing or gotten FUs from competitive Southeast programs.

     
  26. Idiopathic

    Idiopathic Newly Minted
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    An MD from the lowest tier school can overcome his/her school's ranking with a stellar CV, IMHO. I think there is some theoretical 'philosophical' difference that is perceived between MD and DO, and our own advocates have done as much as they can to propagate this, so I dont necessarily fault PD's from trying to (or caring to) place us on the relative scale.
     
  27. Ahh...The Life

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    187 was passing on the USMLE for the current class applying through ERAS. If an MD "FAILED" and was picked over a DO with 230 and 3.5, then that really says something.
     
  28. toughlife

    toughlife Resident
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    I have heard that as well. I think that coupled with the notion that someone from a top allo school would not go to a middle of the road program is probably messing me up.

    What about your letters of rec reading something like "he will be highly ranked at our institution"? Do you think that would make other programs not waste their time interviewing you?

    In the end, I would not mind going to Upenn, columbia, CCF, UW or WashU for residency.
     
  29. Etomidate

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    I posted this earlier, but it seems appropriate here.

    I think many of the top programs are still interviewing DOs and FMGs based on the postings here. However, there is a big difference between getting an interview and matching.

    A couple of the programs I listed above have trends where one DO matched into their classes last year, while they had several in prior years.

    Also, after rotating at a couple of the places I mentioned and speaking with their PDs, I heard similar comments. To paraphrase - you can tell if we have a good match this year if we don't have any DOs or FMGs in the upcoming class. I take these comments to mean that these programs will interview DOs, but they will not have them ranked highly in their match lists. Therefore, the programs would have to go down pretty far on their rank list for a DO to actually match there.

    just my two cents.
     
  30. VentdependenT

    VentdependenT You didnt build thaT
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    Well then that sucks for us. Meanwhile I encourage all osteopaths to apply to whatever programs they wish to attend. Throw a wide net to secure a match. Rank 10 places. You will match. Thats what counts.
     
  31. sgp5

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    First, I am a 4th year MD student at a top 20 med school on the East coast. I am in the top 15% of my class and got a 248+ on both USMLE Step 1 and 2. [Go Kaplan!] I am currently interviewing at all the so-called "top programs" (mostly in the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic region) and have had many interactions with DO studs. Guess what....I COULD CARE LESS IF MY COLLEAGUE IS AN MD OR DO. If our DO colleagues can make the USMLE cutoffs, then they are more than qualified from a knowledge standpoint to work anywhere. The point of the interview is to assess personal skills, and most of the candidates I have met have been as personable or MORE personable than others in the group. Trust me, at my med school I AM SICK AND TIRED OF INFLATED ATTITUDES AND EGOS.

    Do the "big boy schools" have to admit DO's? NO. Some do not. But who cares if they do.

    OK. I'm done. You can get back to fighting amongst each other.
     
  32. jetproppilot

    jetproppilot Turboprop Driver
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    OK folks, heres a post from the Chief of Anesthesia at a hospital in the southeast.

    MD? DO? DVM? DDS? Doctor of Medicine from Joe's Med School at The Cape of Good Hope?

    If you've completed an allopathic anesthesia residency and are in good standings with your attendings (read: no suspensions, no drug abuse issues, no red flags), you've got an easy going personality that'll enable you to matriculate into our group, and get the work done getting patients safely to the PACU without pissing anybody off,

    I COULD GIVE A S HIT LESS WHAT THE LETTERS AFTER YOUR NAME ARE.
     
  33. sean wilson

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    ["OK folks, heres a post from the Chief of Anesthesia at a hospital in the southeast."]

    the SE is not exactly the bastion of elitism to which I was referring when I wrote the leading post. Glad to hear you're wide-open for good people, though it's not what people are actually arguing about as the 250+ Step I/II crowd from top-tiers that I knew in med school usually had good personalities and weren't druggies, either.
     
  34. jetproppilot

    jetproppilot Turboprop Driver
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    The "bastion of elitism?"

    Congrats, bro. You've just won the my-nose-is-level-at-thirty-thousand-feet award.

    Ole redneck Military, smartest dude on this forum, practices in po-dunk Alabama.

    And me's, I's in Louisiana.

    And yes, I dip Red Seal Wintergreen Finecut. And my Yukon XL has a 9" lift.

    Stick to the northeast tea party crowd, bro.

    Whats your goal in life? Are you gonna let your numbers steer you to the "greatest" 200K job in the northeast?

    Jump on it bro.

    Us "bastion of elitism" southeastern dudes will be sippin' margaritas in retirement while you're stuck in rush hour traffic at age 50.
     
  35. militarymd

    militarymd SDN Angel
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    :laugh:
     
  36. sean wilson

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    Am I jumping the gun a bit?

    :D
     
  37. SleepyTime

    SleepyTime Midwestern Univ, Phoenix.
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    Boy, is this a feisty thread. I love the DO v MD discussions though. As for me (DO), there's certainly some sort of bias out there, but who knows to what it's attributed. As a former business semi-executive, sometimes we people at the bottom of the ladder don't completely understand the reasons the leaders make decisions. Ultimately, you go with your gut. I just applied widely and now am having a difficult time deciding among my top 3 choices. In reply to your question Idio, now don't get upset again ;) , but I heard from AZ. Perhaps it's because I live in AZ. Who knows?
     
  38. sean wilson

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    but doesn't need to be, at least in the way that it's being argued. As I have said repeatedly, it's not necessarily my view on DOs/FMGs that we're disscussing. Rather, it's the view of the top programs. We already know their views, with unusual match results like that of Old Dave not withstanding.
     
  39. Ahh...The Life

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    I would have to agree. Most people I meet are as personable, more personable, or less personable than other people I meet. ;)
     
  40. Ahh...The Life

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    When did that Old Salt open a Medical School? Too funny. Tell Ol' Joe I said hello.
     
  41. Noyac

    Noyac ASA Member
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    I hope that you are not calling the SE less capable or inferior in any way. If you are, then you are "one arrogant bastard". I am not curently practicing there nor did I train there. But let me tell you, I have practiced with people in all fields from every area of this country and from many of the "elite" programs. It is not possible to tell where someone did their training by how good they are at their trade. It is not possible to tell whether someone is a DO, MD, or FMG-MD without asking them. If you think that going to or even just being interviewed by some of these programs makes one a better physician than someone from other programs (ie: southern) you have got a lot to learn and you probably won't figure it out until your 3rd job if at all. I could beginto give yo one example after another but it probably wouldn't matter until yo learn it yourself. But I can tell you that if a Sean Wilson comes to my group for a job, I will think twice about hiring him/her. If this is not what you are claiming then you need to clarify yourself.
     
  42. ripped cheese

    ripped cheese Junior Member
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    dude, chill. i took it to mean that SE programs aren't elitist, ie. they don't look at credentials, ivy-league prereqs, letters after your name, etc. that some programs in the east might have.

    btw, i agree this topic has gone from a generalized opinion on how programs may/may not look down upon DO/FMG status to personalized attacks on how MD or DO students suck or aren't personable.

    it's definately true that many schools look at DO students differently. i personally don't think they're any less qualified socially or academically to be docs. i could care less on who i work with as long as they are not inept. BUT, i think you're blind if you don't believe that schools take it into serious consideration. i mean when we all went into med school, do you think they considered a community college grad vs. a harvard grad the same, even with similar MCAT scores? i'm pretty sure not. same idea (no, i don't consider DO schools like community colleges, it's just an example). it sucks for all of us that the competition increased.
     
  43. sean wilson

    sean wilson Membership Revoked
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    "dude, chill. i took it to mean that SE programs aren't elitist, ie. they don't look at credentials, ivy-league prereqs, letters after your name, etc. that some programs in the east might have.

    btw, i agree this topic has gone from a generalized opinion on how programs may/may not look down upon DO/FMG status to personalized attacks on how MD or DO students suck or aren't personable."
     
  44. me454555

    me454555 Senior Member
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    What do you mean degenerated? This thread has stunk since the first post. This entire thread was about how DOs/FMGs suck and how others don't beleive they do.

    Here's a few quotes from your origninal post

    The fact is that this thread has been aimed at trying to make the point that DOs/FMGs are inferior to MDs and top programs shouldn't take them unless they run out of MD grads. At no point in your original post did you mention anything other than what school the applicant graduated from. No mention of board scores, LORs, research, grades, or anything else.
     
  45. VentdependenT

    VentdependenT You didnt build thaT
    Physician Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    Just what are your intentions good sir?

    Whenest thou begins his CA-1 year I hopeth ye provincial views are dispersed for a more encompasing embrace of thy peers. Wheneth an Osteopath slithers into ye program or *agast* into ye private surgi-center please come with arms wide open vs arms akimbo.

    Merlot is for *******.
     
  46. jetproppilot

    jetproppilot Turboprop Driver
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    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH
     
  47. Noyac

    Noyac ASA Member
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    No need to CHILL!

    Until Sean explains his point of view.

    And if it is anything other than I've been misunderstood, I don't want to hear it. The arrogance displayed is hard to believe.
     
  48. jetproppilot

    jetproppilot Turboprop Driver
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    Yeah, OK. Backtrack all you want.

    Just reread your posts.

    Your lie detector monitor just went into wide-complex V tach.
     
  49. sean wilson

    sean wilson Membership Revoked
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    As I mentioned before, I've worked with many DOs and had NO problem with them or their title. Ditto for Ross, St George, a slew of Indian medical school grads, etc.

    You're reading things into this that aren't there.

    You claim to have no reservations at all about your medical degree.

    I'd certainly hope that's the case, after all the hard work you put in to achieve it.

    Vent, talking trash over the computer to people you'll never actually meet is lame. Especially when you're avatar is of a very gay-looking Prince.

    A tip, if I may: Don't complain too much, or people will wonder if you have something to hide.

    -SW
     
  50. jetproppilot

    jetproppilot Turboprop Driver
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    Lets see..

    So you've called Venty a f ag, and are implying we've got something to hide.

    I've got a Hurricane MD, Tulane Residency, successful private practice, I'm happy, and I could work part time tomorrow if I wanted to.

    No, sorry. I'm not happy. I'm ecstatic.

    Nothing to hide on this end, bro.

    Guess I could rub shoulders with the "bastion elite" if I wanted to...just never had the desire.

    Sorry..cant make the tea party...first of all, I havent worn a tie in ten years, and more importantly, I'd rather be at my condo on the water worrying about where to get bait for the next redfish onslaught.

    To each his own.
     
  51. sean wilson

    sean wilson Membership Revoked
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    Vent made a comment about the wine. Yes, it's childish but I took the bait.

    Glad you're happy. Usually I've appreciated your posts about post-residency life and such. I'll look forward to more of them, this issue not withstanding.
     

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