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DO for Canadians: 2011-2012
Started by UBCvan
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Looks like the Canadians are doing well this year! We also have one deferred from last year!!
Also accepted to AZCOM 😀
this is my first acceptance - I'm stoked!
this is my first acceptance - I'm stoked!
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and that would be me I assume? 😀
wow it's been a long time since I posted something here. How's everybody doing? I see a lot of new contributors which is pretty awesome.
also congratz to everyone who has either been accepted or granted an interview!
There are 5 AZCOM acceptances to Canadians this year. One from someone who doesn't post regularly. I hope to actually meet some of you in person next year!
here's my story so far:
TouroNY = deferred acceptance from last year.
MSU = Complete as of last week.
KCUMB = will interview on Oct19th.
Western = waiting to be granted an interview.
I have limited my choice only to these 4 schools. I'm happy with any of them.
TouroNY = deferred acceptance from last year.
MSU = Complete as of last week.
KCUMB = will interview on Oct19th.
Western = waiting to be granted an interview.
I have limited my choice only to these 4 schools. I'm happy with any of them.
I really wanna get a tour of MSU (EL or Detroit), but I live in Vancouver and it's gonna cost me a lot of money to get there. 🙁
laptop gone crazy 
just came for a quick question, with regards to euthanasia:
so from what I understand, u have active euthanasia (ie actually delivering lethal medication in order to end the patient's life) and passive euthanasia (withholding or withdrawal of treatment).. termination of life support i am assuming falls under passive euthanasia. and it seems passive euthanasia is legal throughout US.
what I am confused about is, articles say "euthanasia is illegal in US".. so the general term euthanasia - does it refer to ACTIVE euthanasia? because passive euthanasia seems to be legal, its the active euthanasia that seems the most controversial..
I guess, I just want to confirm, in questions like "what do you think about euthanasia", or in euthanasia related scenarios, are we to assume by euthanasia they are refering to ACTIVE euthanasia?
btw: wowwww lots of acceptances coming through! congratzzz everyone! i'm gonna keep
...gaah i just feel like i suck at interviews 
just came for a quick question, with regards to euthanasia:
so from what I understand, u have active euthanasia (ie actually delivering lethal medication in order to end the patient's life) and passive euthanasia (withholding or withdrawal of treatment).. termination of life support i am assuming falls under passive euthanasia. and it seems passive euthanasia is legal throughout US.
what I am confused about is, articles say "euthanasia is illegal in US".. so the general term euthanasia - does it refer to ACTIVE euthanasia? because passive euthanasia seems to be legal, its the active euthanasia that seems the most controversial..
I guess, I just want to confirm, in questions like "what do you think about euthanasia", or in euthanasia related scenarios, are we to assume by euthanasia they are refering to ACTIVE euthanasia?
btw: wowwww lots of acceptances coming through! congratzzz everyone! i'm gonna keep
...gaah i just feel like i suck at interviews Even though I went already, I booked EL tour Oct 28. If you get accepted before then, try for that date.
laptop gone crazy
just came for a quick question, with regards to euthanasia:
so from what I understand, u have active euthanasia (ie actually delivering lethal medication in order to end the patient's life) and passive euthanasia (withholding or withdrawal of treatment).. termination of life support i am assuming falls under passive euthanasia. and it seems passive euthanasia is legal throughout US.
what I am confused about is, articles say "euthanasia is illegal in US".. so the general term euthanasia - does it refer to ACTIVE euthanasia? because passive euthanasia seems to be legal, its the active euthanasia that seems the most controversial..
I guess, I just want to confirm, in questions like "what do you think about euthanasia", or in euthanasia related scenarios, are we to assume by euthanasia they are refering to ACTIVE euthanasia?
btw: wowwww lots of acceptances coming through! congratzzz everyone! i'm gonna keep
My advice is to keep it simple. Stick with the definition of 'active euthanasia' when answering questions in that light. I feel your definition of 'passive euthanasia' is a very slippery slope. Many things done for patients who are in the end of life stage are not seen as 'euthanasia'. If a patient has an advanced directive that states they do not want to be kept on life support so the family and physicians follow that wish it is not referred to as euthanasia. It is legal because we have legal documents that allow patients to identify their wishes.
If you are ever given a question about how you would handle a patient who does not want to live any longer and sees euthanasia as their only option- I would remove the focus from 'euthanasia' and bring attention towards palliative care and how we can provide comfort measures. While I understand some patients do not want palliative care because it may not completely eliminate the end of life process, I feel that this type of an answer about palliative care may be sufficient for the limited time you will have to answer your interviewer. Interview time is not when we should be looking to start a debate.
My experience is largely oncology so this is how I see it... may be different for others.
laptop gone crazy
just came for a quick question, with regards to euthanasia:
so from what I understand, u have active euthanasia (ie actually delivering lethal medication in order to end the patient's life) and passive euthanasia (withholding or withdrawal of treatment).. termination of life support i am assuming falls under passive euthanasia. and it seems passive euthanasia is legal throughout US.
what I am confused about is, articles say "euthanasia is illegal in US".. so the general term euthanasia - does it refer to ACTIVE euthanasia? because passive euthanasia seems to be legal, its the active euthanasia that seems the most controversial..
I guess, I just want to confirm, in questions like "what do you think about euthanasia", or in euthanasia related scenarios, are we to assume by euthanasia they are refering to ACTIVE euthanasia?
btw: wowwww lots of acceptances coming through! congratzzz everyone! i'm gonna keep
Ethical questions in med school interviews are actually a lot easier than they may seem. Bottom line is always the same: What is best for your PATIENT? And than you pick a side and stick to it, which side you pick really doesn't matter
I think you should focus more of your time on current events and especially your own application. If you did research, make sure you know your projects inside out because they may ask you details.
Good luck!
I like to focus on "Do no harm, informed consent, and patient confidentiality" when confronted with ethical issues.
My old standby is: I would abide by the laws governing the practice at that time. As in, I wouldn't consult parents re: daughter wanting birth control unless I lived in a state that required it by law (some do). I wouldn't report a pregnant girls 16 yr old boyfriend to the cops re: stat rape unless I lived in a state that requires it (again, some do - or so I've been told).
On larger topics like abortion/euthanasia: Well, that's where you get to make your own opinion. I won't share mine at this juncture =)
To Canadians at AZCOM: the school says international students need to have a $300000 deposit at an American bank before they give you a visa. Does this apply to Canadians too?
Yes - you have to do that to get the I 20! Every school is different.
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Drg.. do you ever sleep lol?
Sleep has never been something that I am good at!!
That's a crapload of money (mental image of me signing my life away on that dotted line).
p.s. FOR THOSE WHO HAS BEEN ACCEPTED, if you have also applied to Touro-NY, has not heard back from them yet and are no longer interested in the school for whatever reason..consider cancelling your cheque. I just did that... $200 is good money for groceries (your bank may charge some amounts for cancelling the cheque)
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Cool! We have a fellow Canadians in here. I am just recently interested in getting into the DO program. I hope I can get some assistance on how to complete the application. I am a mature applicant at 32 y.o., a pharmacist, and got 2nd rejection from UBC. MCAT 30Q UBC GPA overall is 82%.
1>. I took my MCAT 5 times because of verbal. Do you think I can still any chance for DO school? My best MCAT is 11PS 7VR 12BS Q
Do I need to release all results?
2>. Do I need to mail transcripts from UBC to World Education Services or do I need to mail them straight to AACOMAS?
3>. I have A+ on my UBC transcript but there's no A+ on the AACOMAS scale. Does this mean it will be downgraded to an A ?
4>. As for each school that you apply to, each has their own specific things that we have to complete. Does this mean these need to be sent to AACOMAS?
1>. I took my MCAT 5 times because of verbal. Do you think I can still any chance for DO school? My best MCAT is 11PS 7VR 12BS Q
Do I need to release all results?
2>. Do I need to mail transcripts from UBC to World Education Services or do I need to mail them straight to AACOMAS?
3>. I have A+ on my UBC transcript but there's no A+ on the AACOMAS scale. Does this mean it will be downgraded to an A ?
4>. As for each school that you apply to, each has their own specific things that we have to complete. Does this mean these need to be sent to AACOMAS?
1. 30 mcat is good - 7 in verbal will be fine
2. If your school uses a 4.0 scale then you don't need the Western eval, I did it to be safe, but it takes time and costs money
3. Its starting to get late to apply now.
4. Just send in the AACOMAS application and the schools will contact you with the secondary. You should open an interfolio account--its the easiest way to gather letters of rec for the schools (except MSU) they have there own letters.
5. If you wait until next June to apply - consider MSU, they are accepting 20 canadians over the next few years.
6. You will most likely get interviews at all the Canadian friendly DO schools if you apply early next year.
2. If your school uses a 4.0 scale then you don't need the Western eval, I did it to be safe, but it takes time and costs money
3. Its starting to get late to apply now.
4. Just send in the AACOMAS application and the schools will contact you with the secondary. You should open an interfolio account--its the easiest way to gather letters of rec for the schools (except MSU) they have there own letters.
5. If you wait until next June to apply - consider MSU, they are accepting 20 canadians over the next few years.
6. You will most likely get interviews at all the Canadian friendly DO schools if you apply early next year.
i sent a certified check so I can't cancel it.
Cool! We have a fellow Canadians in here. I am just recently interested in getting into the DO program. I hope I can get some assistance on how to complete the application. I am a mature applicant at 32 y.o., a pharmacist, and got 2nd rejection from UBC. MCAT 30Q UBC GPA overall is 82%.
1>. I took my MCAT 5 times because of verbal. Do you think I can still any chance for DO school? My best MCAT is 11PS 7VR 12BS Q
Do I need to release all results?
yes you're good.
2>. Do I need to mail transcripts from UBC to World Education Services or do I need to mail them straight to AACOMAS?
I'd say you do need WES because UBC uses % and no 4.0 scale.
3>. I have A+ on my UBC transcript but there's no A+ on the AACOMAS scale. Does this mean it will be downgraded to an A ?
Your A+ will become A.
4>. As for each school that you apply to, each has their own specific things that we have to complete. Does this mean these need to be sent to AACOMAS?
yes, you send everything to AACOMAS (primary application), then each school will contact you to complete their own specific secondary application. Secondaries are usually not as extensive as primary application.
DRG answered most of your questions. Mine's in purple.
I am starting to look into student loans. Is the credit line from RBC our best option? I also came across Global lending services, which supposedly doesn't require a US cosigner?
What is everyone doing to come up with the rest of the money. I've saved up a little bit as well, but would still need additional loans than the 200 000.
What is everyone doing to come up with the rest of the money. I've saved up a little bit as well, but would still need additional loans than the 200 000.
I think I'm going to open up a line of credit through a bank. Also take a look at government student loans (it's not much: ~15k) - these are interest free until you graduate.
for those of us from Ontario, I think the max OSAP you can get for an international grad tuition/expenses is $9000 or 9500
That would be convenient since I live in London, but I'm looking forward to moving in the next few months 🙂
say whhhatt?? that's siick!😱😀
Like a separate DO stream parallel to their MD stream? tell meeee!!
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I met some of the faculty from MSU this summer and I know that the dean is working hard to get a DO school in Canada, I didn't know it was at UWO. For some reason, I thought the campus was going to be in Sarnia.
I did my undergrad at UWO, great campus. I'm actually working in London now, but I'll be happy to be moving in a few months. I am going to put it out there, but London has the worst drivers in Ontario! LOL
I did my undergrad at UWO, great campus. I'm actually working in London now, but I'll be happy to be moving in a few months. I am going to put it out there, but London has the worst drivers in Ontario! LOL
Hey everyone, I was wondering if it's possible to keep your acceptance if you don't end up completing all the required credits towards your BSc/BA degree? Say you apply in the summer of your 4th year (early may-june I assume) and you receive an acceptance but if you don't end up getting a degree by the time classes start, do they cancel the offer of admission?
Cando said their previous attempt was a distance education program based off Sarnia. Guess their plan B is in UWO. Any idea why the MSU dean is so passionate about starting a DO school in Canada? I mean.. what do they get out of it? The DO profession is doing pretty well in the US, why are they spending money and resources in starting a DO medical school outside of the US? I don't really understand why they want this (although it'll be good for the Canadians in the US doing the DO right now)
If he does pull it off.. Lol.. imagine all the barriers coming down right away.. first round everywhere? 😀 no more MCCEE? instant validation in Canada..
prereqs have to be done before med school starts, or they'll withdraw their acceptance.
So if by the end of 4th year, we've completed at least 90 credit hours (~3 years of uni work?), all the pre-req courses but don't have enough credits to obtain a bachelors degree before matriculation, then would they still withdraw your acceptance?
I'm pretty sure all DO schools require you to have actually graduated first before matriculating.. As far as I know, I have not come across any that accept 2nd year applicants like in Canada or those who did not graduate undergrad first.
Oh, its just that I'm not in the position to take any classes this year (which should have been my 2nd year of undergrad) and will probably have to do an extra year/1 extra semester to finish my undergrad degree requirements. I was just asking because I will have finished 90 credit hours + required pre-reqs by the end of my 4th year but will have to go back to school for 5th year to finish my undergrad degree requirements...
and I just went through your whole thread over at premed mashmetoo, its great that you took the time to write that guide. Thank you!
and I just went through your whole thread over at premed mashmetoo, its great that you took the time to write that guide. Thank you!
hey axon...check the requirements section of each school ur interested in.. for eg, AZCOM clearly lists: "Completion of a bachelor's degree at regionally accredited colleges or universities prior to matriculation".. whereas NSU says: "A bachelor's degree is preferred"..."A minimum of 90 semester hours of accepted work from a regionally accredited college or university may be considered for admission."
so, just check with the different schools, and see if anyone offers any exception (and how likely it would be to give you that exception)..but most, like mashmetoo said, wud require the completion of Bachelors, along with the required prereq courses..
okay thanks. I have one more question. How often do med schools give out those "acceptance deferral"? I think that's what they are called. Like in my case if I were to get accepted in my 4th year but don't have enough credits do get a degree, then I would just complete the remaining credits in the following year and start med school right after.
Clarification: As for the University of Western Ontario being courted to open an osteopathic medical school by the Dean at Michigan State this is not the case. In our preliminary discussions regarding an osteopathic medical school in Canada, Western was approached to see if they had any interest as they were in close proximity to Michigan State. There has never been any interest from Western and to be honest this was expected. Work on a school in Canada is an on going process, one that may take years. In the interim Michigan State has agreed to accept 25 Canadians per year to help bolster our numbers. As for Michigan States involvement the Canadian Osteopathic Association approached them a number of years ago with the thought of developing a Canadian school. This is a work in progress. As a Land Grant university international work is a part of Michigan States mandate and this fits.
As for completing the full four year degree before matriculating in an osteopathic medical school it really depends on the school. Some do require the degree but there are others that only require 90 credits and the necessary prerequisites. One does not have to have completed an undergraduate degree to matriculate at all schools. You must check each school out individually. I personally know of a student who is now in second year who did not have the full degree.
As for completing the full four year degree before matriculating in an osteopathic medical school it really depends on the school. Some do require the degree but there are others that only require 90 credits and the necessary prerequisites. One does not have to have completed an undergraduate degree to matriculate at all schools. You must check each school out individually. I personally know of a student who is now in second year who did not have the full degree.
Thanks for that clarification Cando. Would getting your degree first be a wise choice? It would mean that I'd would have to waste the whole year before I can matriculate because as it stands now, I need about 1 semester extra after my 4th year to get my BA. But then I can't start med until aug-sep....
Personally I would finish my degree. Are you planning on applying now? Its getting late to submit your AACOMAS app at this point. I made that mistake last year. Have you taken the MCAT yet? I'd focus on finishing my degree and scoring well on the MCAT. Then apply early next june and you'll be good to go.
Hi Cando
Thanks for the update. I did my postbacc at York University (TO) and just as I started in 2008, they said they were very interested in starting a medical school. They even hired a guy from the Ottawa School of medicine to help them plan out their attack. I never saw any follow up articles although I heard they were quite disheartened when the Ontario govt apparently gave money to open up more spots at existing schools rather than work with them to develop a new school. I think York's location and their stated philosophy for the med school (community focus) would be a good fit for an Osteopathic school.
Anyway, just a thought.
Thanks for the update. I did my postbacc at York University (TO) and just as I started in 2008, they said they were very interested in starting a medical school. They even hired a guy from the Ottawa School of medicine to help them plan out their attack. I never saw any follow up articles although I heard they were quite disheartened when the Ontario govt apparently gave money to open up more spots at existing schools rather than work with them to develop a new school. I think York's location and their stated philosophy for the med school (community focus) would be a good fit for an Osteopathic school.
Anyway, just a thought.
Thanks for the clarification. I have some suggestions for MSU from the perspective of a student who actually went through the whole application process and is able to speak with pretty good authority regarding med schools in Canada.
Although I commend MSU's enthusiasm, I think their approach is simply wrong. Here are the reasons why:
1) As far as I know, MSU is the only school in North America that offers both the MD and DO degrees in 2 separate stream. Unfortunately, no other med school/institution in the US offers this. Needless to say, people in Canada, even the heads of Universities will most likely not know about the DO profession as a medical profession (as we have to compete with the DO Osteopaths). Even if they did, there's simply no incentive especially for a Med school, like UWO to open up a parallel DO branch, their rejection of this proposal is to be expected. MSU's first mistake was to approach UWO at all. Their strategy should be to approach Universities without prior established medical schools, and avoid all the colleges as you will never have a med school open up in a College.
2) There's 6 med schools in Ontario, more than any other province in Canada. Although Ontario is close in proximity to MSU, geographical location will NOT translate into an easier process for MSU - they MUST understand this. We Canadians are a proud and pretty conservative bunch. When you have SIX med schools in ONE province, the powers that be at these Universities or the Ontario government will think that everything is going fine, as there are "enough" med school as it is, and the urgency to open up more med schools is not as strong compared to say provinces/territories with only ONE med school (e.g., British Columbia), or no med school at all (Yukon, NW territories).
This problem can be remedied if you approach Universities that do NOT have a previously established Med school. Especially in Toronto, you have a city of 3 million people and only one medical school. I think that's a bloody outrage. There is VAST demand in Toronto for medical education, UofToronto gets well over 3000 applicants a year (it might be 4000 now), they only accept around 220 people. Now as Muffles said, if you can open up another Med school in Toronto, and the most logical place is at York University - there would be absolutely no problem with demand. There'll be thousands of applications, and it'll be an instant "legitimization" of the Canadian DO medical profession (the "legitimization" used here is a figure of speech, what I mean to say is that Canadians will readily accept it for what it is if a DO medical school is opened up anywhere in Canada).
The same thing works for BC, Vancouver - there's only 1 med school in Vancouver and all of BC.
3) If opening up a DO school in a Canadian metropolis is not possible, then why not open up in a territory/place where there is NO med school? I realize there might be logistical problems to open up a med school in say .. the Yukon, or NW Territories, but Osteopathic medicine for the longest time had been a grassroots movement. The main strategy is to open up an osteopathic medical school SOMEWHERE in Canada, if that happens, benefits to Canadian DOs will be immediate. The strategy is to get the DO name/brand OUT there, right now, Canadian USDOs have no representation in the "market". Once we have our own schoool, even a remote one at that, the rest will follow much more easily.
4) Another likely strategy is to approach Northern Canadian communities (not as far north as Yukon or the NW territories). I'm talking about Northern Ontario, Northern Alberta, Northern BC, Northern Quebec, etc etc etc. NOSM - Northern Ontario School of Medicine was the only new MD med school that Canada opened up in the last (like) 40 years. This happened because these northern communities had a very hard time attracting and keeping doctors in their area. Then there's the whole trend that med students/residents tend to settle down in the area where they did their med school. So the idea here is that if they opened a med school in their Northern communities, they'll have an easier time attracting and keeping doctors. Why can't do the same thing for DO med schools? Approach a northern community, fly their community leaders and deans of high education to MSU, explain to them what DOs are, and get their local community support in place first, THEN with the help of these communities, lobby the provincial government!! These northerners will be more receptive to DO schools as they do have a doctor shortage compared to the larger Southern Canadian cities, and they won't be as obtuse to the whole "what is a DO" thing, or "why not MD".
I suggest the Dean of MSU approach regional Canadian governments/higher institutions where there are no medical schools, and discuss DO school expansion there. I understand that the MSU dean is fighting hard for this cause, but I'm not entirely sure if his strategy or his intel is correct. My impression so far is that he does not know the layout of the Canadian landscape.. so to speak.
Cando - I'm just a student with big ideas and dreams. Maybe if my suggestions make sense to you, you can relay it to the people at MSU? Just trying to do my part in helping DO expansion into Canada. Thanks!
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First the initial plan for an osteopathic medical school in Canada came at the initiative of the Canadian Osteopathic Association. One has to remember that there are more Canadian students today in Michigan's class than all the members of the COA at the time this idea was started. To have an osteopathic school legitimately in Canada the thought was that one has to have the ability to train them with osteopathic physicians and to go too far from a training facility makes the osteopathic training component very difficult. Faculty from Michigan State were to help out in this regard. As alluded to Western was approached with the expectation of a negative response, however when later they indicate that the option wasn't given to them then this is a non argument. Yes there are other options available and one knows this, however working with Michigan State has been a good option. We now have a guarantee of 25 positions per year for Canadians and this should help us obtain numbers to help move this forward. One needs to recognize that there really has only been four of us working on this for the past 25 years and one really can't expect us to approach every school. One thing at a time. We have gone a long way. One also needs to recognize that we have a Steering Committee involved in this process that involves very credible people including one individual involved in creating more medical schools in North America than anyone else. We also have a past president of the AOA. We have very good support from Michigan and sometimes we need to wait patiently for the right political climate to initiate change. The Steering Committee had a lot of consideration of options. Things can change in the future but one must be careful not to shoot oneself in the foot with quick directional changes.
Further to my prior note. Our attempt at an osteopathic medical school came around the same time York University did make very vocal media efforts for their own medical school supported by lots of funds. It fell on deaf ears, the government convinced that the initiatives that they had made by increasing medical school class size and starting satellite programs was going to be enough. The government had little appetite for more students beyond this and it was not a DO vs MD situation. I also work in northern Ontario and there is very little room for another venture there. The Michigan model was going to have the first two years of basic sciences in Ontario with support form Michigan with the second two years at osteopathic training sites in Michigan. In this fashion we could truly claim osteopathic credibility until we get a nucleus of osteopathic physicians in Canada. One can't really declare ourselves osteopathic trained if all the training is at non-osteopathic sites in Canada. The government then would ask what makes us different than just increasing their class sizes. Thus the need for an osteopathic medical school affiliation and osteopathic training. The emphasis on primary care of the osteopathic profession and there historical tradition of supplying underserviced areas hopefully will resonate with government.
Good points. Out of curiosity, what is the official position of the COA, or whoever is in charge regarding using DO osteopaths (non DO doctors) in teaching the OMM/OPP component in a hypothetical future scenerio of a DO med school in Canada?
Also, you posted several months ago that Canadian student representatives from each DO school be chosen to represent the COA in the said schools, is there any update since then? (I ask because there was a meeting of all the international students at Western U yesterday with their clinical rotations coordinator, and I have good contact with all of them - the vast majority are Canadians).
That is exactly what I wanted to express earlier. The servicing the undeserved area and primary care is what we are good at. This is what I was talking about when I say Ontario doesn't want change because it already has 6 med schools - which really is alot. This is why I think it's better to approach locations where med schools are not as abundant - e.g. BC, Manitoba etc.
Hey guys,
I too was accepted at AZCOM. I also interviewed at KCUMB and will be going to NOVA in a week or so.
I was wondering if anyone here knows the financial policies for KCUMB and NOVA for canadians? Do they also require all the tuition in a U.S bank account like AZCOM? Or is it different?
Also, for all those interested in AZCOM i believe the money they need this year is around 350 K, i believe it was 330k last year.
I too was accepted at AZCOM. I also interviewed at KCUMB and will be going to NOVA in a week or so.
I was wondering if anyone here knows the financial policies for KCUMB and NOVA for canadians? Do they also require all the tuition in a U.S bank account like AZCOM? Or is it different?
Also, for all those interested in AZCOM i believe the money they need this year is around 350 K, i believe it was 330k last year.
