I've tried researching this a lot, but do you all have any idea what schools are DO friendly for neurosurgery residency? Allo and osteo residencies will suffice, but just wondering. Thanks!! 
DO friendly neurosurgery residencies
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It's probably more about the student than the school. However, if you really want to think in terms of the school offering some sort of advantage, I'd look at some of the old ones with long histories - KCOM, CCOM, PCOM, etc and/or schools that have an AOA Neurosurg residency associated with them.
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What about DO friendly ACGME neurosurg programs?
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I don't know tbh. My initial instinct says "quite rare," but I'm not sure how desirable NS is at the moment. Technically, these guys are some of the best paid once they are out, but it's my understanding that residency is long and super tough, the lifestyle isn't great, and the mal practice is high. Compare that to something like ACGME derm, and it's understandable that it's not as crazy to get. However, throw in the fact that a lot of Allos probably still want NS and that ACGME surg residencies probably have some of the strongest DO bias, and you can see why it's tough. Again ... I'm going to go with "quite rare." I could be way off, and I've also heard that there are a few good AOA NS residencies ... so both things to consider.
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I would say neurosurg is top 5 in terms of competitiveness. Probably a little below PRS, ENT, Radonc, and Derm and about on par with Ortho. That said, the candidate pool is smaller and more elite because the people self-select for it. The typical candidate is extremely intense. Neurosurg is probably the most prestige-biased of the surgical specialties too. The average Step for ACGME NS is in the low 240s, fwiw.
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Good to know. And my hat's off to anybody champ enough to go down that road.
Just thought I'd chime in. My source from an Osteopathic NS program tells me that most people who were selected were top 5 or top 10 in their class and a lot of them (but not all) had some research experience. The specialty itself is a lifestyle, not a lifestyle specialty.
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yeah i've seen residents and docs in the NS forums talking about how the lifestyle sucks and you really gotta LOVE NS to go into it cus it sucks even after the 7 long years of residency..
But then again..you do get to play around in people heads..and then somehow they're awake and talking after...now THATS rewarding...
But then again..you do get to play around in people heads..and then somehow they're awake and talking after...now THATS rewarding...
All of these replies are valid, and helpful--thank you. What DO neurosurgery residencies would be pretty elite to go into in the future? I'm actually really interested in this specialty, and surprised to see that a lot of DOs do not want to go into neurosurgery.... Maybe I'm way off, but just wondering.
I don't hear the same concerns of mid-level encroachment in neurosurgery that I do in other fields. Although I believe much of the mid-level work will be automated someday, in the time between now and then, neurosurgeons seem fairly safe. Mid-levels haven't seemed to penetrate NS as easily as other, similar fields like orthopedics.
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Could be safe ... but who knows.
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Nurses earning their 'doctorate of nursing practice' and wanting independent practice rights and the ability to refer to themselves as 'Dr' within these settings. It means bad-ness.
I wanna clarify what I meant a little bit by mid-level encroachment, because even the "encroachment" in orthopedics doesn't seem as threatening relative to fields like anesthesia or dermatology. I'm under the belief that most surgical fields are safer for the time being. Orthopedic surgeons often use PA's for a variety of roles, often to take the bad call days. However, you could probably say several examples of encroachment in other fields by other types of mid-levels probably started in a way similar to this. Anyway, I really haven't seen heavy use of PA's or NP's in Neurosurgery. Encroachment seems like a fairly large threat for physicians of all types; maybe they just don't know it, or don't care. I'm not really sure about that. BUT from my experiences, I really haven't heard much worry of mid-level encroachment from neurosurgeons. The only threats I've really heard are ones from the government making it nearly impossible to run a private practice and someday you'll have no choice but to be a hospital employee. Good for some, bad for others, I suppose.
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It's definitely not as big of a deal in Ortho/Neuro Surg, but this (in my opinion) is the attitude that has landed docs in this crappy situation to begin with. Doctors seem to have a very difficult time unifying in an effort to stop something. I'm unsure if it's the fact that they are bred to compete with one another, but from what I observe the attitude goes something like this:
Dermatologist: 'I don't care about DNPs taking over primary care, I specialized and I'm safe.' (enter the DNP nursing dermatology residency)
Anesthesiologist:'I don't care about DNPs taking over derm, I'm in gas and it doesn't affect me.' (enter the DNP + CRNA)
Ortho Surg: ' I don't care about Gas/Derm ...'
You see where I'm going with this. In my opinion, encroachment into any field of MEDICINE should be viewed as a problem to the entire community. Don't get me wrong, I'm not particularly in favor of some big union, but I hate it when people take the attitude that they can escape to some exclusive field of medicine and be absolutely unaffected by this mid-level issue. It's everywhere, I wouldn't assume any field is "safe," and the take over of any field just needs to stop.
I won't even get into the government ...
I totally agree with you, Jagger and I want to make some other points that have pissed me off, too, as I shadow more doctors. Disclaimer: I DO think nurses perform a great service to patients and are highly needed in health care systems, however, I do not think, personally, that nurses should wear white coats, prescribe medications, or have the same work load. Here's the deal....nurses do NOT have to pass USMLE/COMLEX, which are incredibly difficult tests...they do NOT have to take them THREE TIMES. They do NOT understand the biochemical systems within our body, nor does the average nurse understand the mechanism of drug action. Sorry for the random/pissed off tangent, but I believe I have a point here.
Second, I think it's impossible to have mid-level encroachment in neurosurgery, because a nurse will never replace the neurosurgeon. These highly skilled physicians undergo years of education for a reason...they cannot be replaced.
Second, I think it's impossible to have mid-level encroachment in neurosurgery, because a nurse will never replace the neurosurgeon. These highly skilled physicians undergo years of education for a reason...they cannot be replaced.
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You're 100% correct. Nurses are fantastic, the problem (from what I'm hearing) is that a lot of people who are going into 'nursing' right now, don't want to be nurses. They want to get the DNP, practice medicine, and introduce themselves as 'Dr' in a clinical setting. I have nothing but respect and gratitude for RNs.
No offense, but read my above post and tell me you aren't making my exact point. 20 years ago, people scoffed at the idea of nurses encroaching Anesthesia. Look at the CRNA movement now. Is it difficult to see how a nurse could take over a lot of what a Neurosurgeon does? Of course, however, read my above post and tell me this slippery slope argument/attitude isn't what helped this problem gain such a strong foothold. Also, what does it matter if they can't replace a Neurosurgeon? They're still replacing FPs, derms, Gas docs, IM doc, etc, etc and we should all see this as a huge problem. The run and hide method doesn't cut it for me. But then again, here I am bitching on an anonymous forum while the ANA is thinking up kick ass PR strategies and moving along smoothly
This is what needs to change.GREAT POINT. But, let me amicably ask you...would you honestly let a CNA perform anesthesia on you? You're going to to say no, I hope and assume, because they did not meet the same requirements that an MD, or a DO met. ALSO, That's why the argument against DO is sooo moot because DO and MD meet similar requirements. Not to digress, but I wanted to compare. Anyways, I love what you're discussing because it is something that is intermittently discussed on any of these forums. Good job, and I like participants responses to my question.
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You're not going to see a lot of DOs in ACGME NSG residencies (as well as ortho) because it is a HUGE gamble on the part of the DO students.
There are no dually accredited ACGME/AOA NSG or Ortho residencies.
You have to be competitive to be considered for neurosurgery or ortho.
The AOA match occurs months before the NRMP match. Matching into AOA means automatically removal from NRMP match. If your goal is to become a neurosurgeon or orthopedist, then you apply for both match. If you want ACGME and not AOA, then you have to skip the AOA programs and take your chances with the ACGME (along with the bias against DOs amonst the surgical fields) - A BIG GAMBLE. If you don't match AOA, you're still eligible for ACGME but the question becomes - how competitive are you in the big pool of applicants when you didn't match in the AOA match.
If your goal is to become a neurosurgeon, then you apply to both matches, interview at all programs, rank all programs, and enter both matches. If you want a specific program or want to skip the AOA programs, then you apply through NRMP - but if you dont match, you're screwed!!! Because the NRMP match is months after the AOA match, all the desirable osteopathic internships/transition year spots are gone - and you're left with the left overs*
*with recent increases in seats in established MD schools, new MD schools, and new DO schools, not sure how many open spots will remain in the future
There are no dually accredited ACGME/AOA NSG or Ortho residencies.
You have to be competitive to be considered for neurosurgery or ortho.
The AOA match occurs months before the NRMP match. Matching into AOA means automatically removal from NRMP match. If your goal is to become a neurosurgeon or orthopedist, then you apply for both match. If you want ACGME and not AOA, then you have to skip the AOA programs and take your chances with the ACGME (along with the bias against DOs amonst the surgical fields) - A BIG GAMBLE. If you don't match AOA, you're still eligible for ACGME but the question becomes - how competitive are you in the big pool of applicants when you didn't match in the AOA match.
If your goal is to become a neurosurgeon, then you apply to both matches, interview at all programs, rank all programs, and enter both matches. If you want a specific program or want to skip the AOA programs, then you apply through NRMP - but if you dont match, you're screwed!!! Because the NRMP match is months after the AOA match, all the desirable osteopathic internships/transition year spots are gone - and you're left with the left overs*
*with recent increases in seats in established MD schools, new MD schools, and new DO schools, not sure how many open spots will remain in the future
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It seems unfair to me that if one gets into AOA Neurosurgery then you automatically have to withdraw from acgme...unfair?
No.
1. They get to apply for both ACGME/AOA (MDs can't)
2. At the end of the day ... they get to achieve their dream (I'm a brain surgeon)
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Top DO NS programs seem to be St Johns in MI, Long Island, PCOM (obv).
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Lots of programs are DO friendly if you are qualified. That is, have you taken the USMLEs, did you do well, how is the rest of your application, etc.
Loma Linda matched a DO last year. He was an outstanding candidate.
Loma Linda matched a DO last year. He was an outstanding candidate.
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Well from what I've read, NS is VERY personality specific. (not saying that other fields aren't, but you need to have a very different personality type to enjoy a life with NS in it)
