DO friendly specialties

[Dr Dazzle]

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I don't know if this is relevant with the 2015 changes where theoretically DOs can match with any MD specialty. However, I'm assuming that MD PD bias will still exist. At this point what are DO friendly specialties in the ACGME world?

I ask, because I have been told that there are much fewer spots open in AOA specialties, making it likely that a student may have to pursue an ACGME residency.

 

[deleted480308]

Regardless of accreditation the pd's are all still the same so those that were md heavy will likely lean that way an those that were do heavy will do the same. Both will likely relax a bit but I wouldn't count on some huge upheaval like derm going 95% do 😉

 

[BabyDoc86]

From what I've researched myself, it seems that most of the family med/peds/IM/primary care residencies are pretty DO-friendly. Granted, it doesn't mean that all of them are. There are a few peds programs that I am interested in (close to family) that I've researched, and they all say they accept COMLEX, so I take that as a good sign. I also talked to a couple directors and they said they have DOs in their residencies this year, so I feel pretty good about going into the match.

 

[munchymanRX]

I don't know if this is relevant with the 2015 changes where theoretically DOs can match with any MD specialty. However, I'm assuming that MD PD bias will still exist. At this point what are DO friendly specialties in the ACGME world?

I ask, because I have been told that there are much fewer spots open in AOA specialties, making it likely that a student may have to pursue an ACGME residency.

Family, IM, Peds, ER, and of the more competitive fields, Ortho (makes sense).

 

[Dr Dazzle]

Is it true that if a DO student pursues an AOA Internal med residency after 2015, they will be eligible for the ACGME IM fellowships such as cardiology? Aren't all AOA residencies technically becoming ACGME residencies by 2015 so I'm assuming they would be the same as the current ACGME residencies as far as consideration for fellowships?

 

[Wolverines83]

Is it true that if a DO student pursues an AOA Internal med residency after 2015, they will be eligible for the ACGME IM fellowships such as cardiology? Aren't all AOA residencies technically becoming ACGME residencies by 2015 so I'm assuming they would be the same as the current ACGME residencies as far as consideration for fellowships?

There is no technical obstacle to getting a cards spot. You're correct that any internship/residency will be ACGME starting 2015. Because of that, all internships/residencies will technically qualify you for a fellowship.

 

[cliquesh]

I don't know if this is relevant with the 2015 changes where theoretically DOs can match with any MD specialty. However, I'm assuming that MD PD bias will still exist. At this point what are DO friendly specialties in the ACGME world?

I ask, because I have been told that there are much fewer spots open in AOA specialties, making it likely that a student may have to pursue an ACGME residency.

DO friendly (Do able if you have average scores for the field): IM, EM, Fam Med, Ob/gyn, psych, PM&R, neurology, pathology, and anesthiology.

DO friendly-ish( do able if you have above average scores): radiology and general surgery.

DO unfriendly (not going to happen): all of the other surgical specialities, like ortho, urology, etc., derm, rad-onc

 

[cliquesh]

Is it true that if a DO student pursues an AOA Internal med residency after 2015, they will be eligible for the ACGME IM fellowships such as cardiology? Aren't all AOA residencies technically becoming ACGME residencies by 2015 so I'm assuming they would be the same as the current ACGME residencies as far as consideration for fellowships?

You could always go from an AOA residency to an ACGME fellowship. Graduates from AOA orthopedics, general surgery, and radiology residencies do it all the time. However, they are matching into non-competitive fellowships. You are not going to match into a competitive Acgme fellowship, like cardiology, from a no named residency, regardless if it's AOA or ACGME certified. If you want to go into a competitive fellowship it is in your best interest to get into the biggest, baddest residency you can get into that also has the fellowship you are interested in in- house.

 

[a runner]

I have to generally agree with cliquesh's assessment.

You can read the NRMP's program director survey to get an idea. It tells you what percentage of PD's surveyed even interview DO's at their program.

Here's the rundown for 2012:

PM&R 97%
Psychiatry 94%
Family Medicine 93%
Pathology 91%
Pediatrics 87%
Anesthesiology 83%
Neurology 81%
Internal Medicine 79%
OB/GYN 77%
Radiology 69%
Emergency Medicine 68%
Radiation Oncology 63%
General Surgery 53%
Plastic Surgery 50%
Neurosurgery 38%
Dermatology 31%
Orthopedic Surgery 30%
ENT 28%

http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

 

[Dr Dazzle]

I have to generally agree with cliquesh's assessment.

You can read the NRMP's program director survey to get an idea. It tells you what percentage of PD's surveyed even interview DO's at their program.

Here's the rundown for 2012:

PM&R 97%
Psychiatry 94%
Family Medicine 93%
Pathology 91%
Pediatrics 87%
Anesthesiology 83%
Neurology 81%
Internal Medicine 79%
OB/GYN 77%
Radiology 69%
Emergency Medicine 68%
Radiation Oncology 63%
General Surgery 53%
Plastic Surgery 50%
Neurosurgery 38%
Dermatology 31%
Orthopedic Surgery 30%
ENT 28%

http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

I think for the ultra competitive specialties...ones on the bottom...the best shot is probably AOA programs...or current AOA programs which will be converted to ACGME programs in 2015?

 

[maxwellwest]

DO friendly (Do able if you have average scores for the field): IM, EM, Fam Med, Ob/gyn, psych, PM&R, neurology, pathology, and anesthiology.

DO friendly-ish( do able if you have above average scores): radiology and general surgery.

DO unfriendly (not going to happen): all of the other surgical specialities, like ortho, urology, etc., derm, rad-onc

Im not sure if I would place Urology in the DO unfriendly category as I know a handful of DO's that are urology. Then again im not sure if they did an AOA or ACGME Residency.

Overall I agree with Cliquesh

 

[cliquesh]

I think for the ultra competitive specialties...ones on the bottom...the best shot is probably AOA programs...or current AOA programs which will be converted to ACGME programs in 2015?

Yep, it's pretty much your only realistic shot. There are not many AOA spots for competitive fields, though. There were 94 spots for AOA ortho last year. 30 radiology, 20 ent, 20 urology, 14 opth, 12 neurosurgery. There were ~4600 graduates that year and ~2050 participated in the AOA match.

http://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2012prgstats.html

 

[cliquesh]

Im not sure if I would place Urology in the DO unfriendly category as I know a handful of DO's that are urology. Then again im not sure if they did an AOA or ACGME Residency.

Overall I agree with Cliquesh

A few, 0 to 4, DOs will match Acgme urology each year. 20 will Match AOA urology. There will be 5k DOs in the class of 2014.

 

[Silent Cool]

OP:

all the fields that no one wants.

 

[a runner]

I think for the ultra competitive specialties...ones on the bottom...the best shot is probably AOA programs...or current AOA programs which will be converted to ACGME programs in 2015?

I agree with cliquesh, you're best bet is with programs that are currently AOA. But if you're graduating 2015, you will likely have a combined match and won't have to make that choice. Just apply to all the programs in that super competitive specialty, both converted AOA and current ACGME, go to all interviews, and rank them all.

Also, the negatives of going to an AOA program will likely diminish somewhat when they're covered under the ACGME umbrella, so they will become more attractive to DO students and thus more competitive (that's not to mention the fact that MD's will be able to apply as well).

 

[ocellicyst]

oops

 

[ocellicyst]

I have to generally agree with cliquesh's assessment.

You can read the NRMP's program director survey to get an idea. It tells you what percentage of PD's surveyed even interview DO's at their program.

Here's the rundown for 2012:

PM&R 97%
Psychiatry 94%
Family Medicine 93%
Pathology 91%
Pediatrics 87%
Anesthesiology 83%
Neurology 81%
Internal Medicine 79%
OB/GYN 77%
Radiology 69%
Emergency Medicine 68%
Radiation Oncology 63%
General Surgery 53%
Plastic Surgery 50%
Neurosurgery 38%
Dermatology 31%
Orthopedic Surgery 30%
ENT 28%

http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

That makes me so mad. Schools don't make good doctors. People make good doctors.

 

[Lacktherof]

I know one thing for certain, now that there is no consequence for participating in the ACGME match (i.e. being SOL because you skipped the AOA), there will be a vast increase in the amount of "honest attempts" at the more competitive specialties by DO students. Hopefully the bias will evaporate (or at least somewhat lessen) with a massive influx of attractive, comparable candidates into these programs. Even if PD bias remains strong, the fear of applying is gone, and I for one am happy with any extra opportunity I can get.

 

[Silent Cool]

That makes me so mad. Schools don't make good doctors. People make good doctors.

Like I said: the less competitive (and lower paying fields) will always be open to you. But the more desirable (and higher paying fields) will be MUCH harder to break into. Notice that that list does not include Ophtho, which will also be VERY hard to get into as a DO. From what I understand (there's another thread on this), DOs are also at a significant disadvantage for getting fellowships out of IM. The message being, do all you can do get into an MD program. It will only keep more options open for you. G'luck either way.

😎

 

[Dr Dazzle]

Like I said: the less competitive (and lower paying fields) will always be open to you. But the more desirable (and higher paying fields) will be MUCH harder to break into. Notice that that list does not include Ophtho, which will also be VERY hard to get into as a DO. From what I understand (there's another thread on this), DOs are also at a significant disadvantage for getting fellowships out of IM. The message being, do all you can do get into an MD program. It will only keep more options open for you. G'luck either way.

😎

I think if you can match ACGME for IM, I don't see any problem matching a fellowship as a DO cause you are evaluated on your residency performance.

 

[a runner]

I think if you can match ACGME for IM, I don't see any problem matching a fellowship as a DO cause you are evaluated on your residency performance.

That's true. I agree that if a DO lands a competitive IM residency at a good or even decent academic program, they will be very competitive for good IM fellowships if they perform well. The problem is that ~20% of IM residencies (presumably mostly top academic programs) don't currently interview DO applicants, so it's a little harder for DO's to get those top ACGME IM residencies that lead to great fellowships.

 

[K31]

Family, IM, Peds, ER, and of the more competitive fields, Ortho (makes sense).

ACGME ortho is decidedly not DO-friendly--only 2 of the 682 spots in 2012 were filled by DOs (cite--see page 5).

 

[da Vincis World]

That's true. I agree that if a DO lands a competitive IM residency at a good or even decent academic program, they will be very competitive for good IM fellowships if they perform well. The problem is that ~20% of IM residencies (presumably mostly top academic programs) don't currently interview DO applicants, so it's a little harder for DO's to get those top ACGME IM residencies that lead to great fellowships.

Please note that even after your residency at a fancy IM program you will still be discriminated against with the competitive fellowships, they will still see you as a DO. Your best bet is to get an ACGME IM residency at a place that has your desired fellowship and then really impress.

 

[Silent Cool]

Please note that even after your residency at a fancy IM program you will still be discriminated against with the competitive fellowships, they will still see you as a DO. Your best bet is to get an ACGME IM residency at a place that has your desired fellowship and then really impress.

Yup, that's right. There's another thread on this very topic, with some IM residents basically corroborating this. It will be an uphill battle, though less so if you come out of the best residency that you can. Last year I think there were only 5 DO's who matched an allergy/immunology fellowship! Granted, I don't know how many applied, but it will definitely be harder. Definitely go the the best IM residency you can, or at least one that has all the major fellowships in-house.

 

[MrBeauregard]

Yup, that's right. There's another thread on this very topic, with some IM residents basically corroborating this. It will be an uphill battle, though less so if you come out of the best residency that you can. Last year I think there were only 5 DO's who matched an allergy/immunology fellowship! Granted, I don't know how many applied, but it will definitely be harder. Definitely go the the best IM residency you can, or at least one that has all the major fellowships in-house.

I think you've already shown why so few match: there are few that apply to begin with.

Could you link that other thread you were taking about?

 

[da Vincis World]

I think you've already shown why so few match: there are few that apply to begin with.

Could you link that other thread you were taking about?

This is certainly not the only reason.....

To all the folks on this thread wanting to match ACGME you absolutely need to take the USMLE.....it opens so many more doors for you. Your school, your friends, and many others may try to talk you out of it........DO NOT LISTEN. They are only closing doors for YOU. The number of kids that decide as an MS1 to not take USMLE and then regret that decision as an MS3 is huge.

 

[Silent Cool]

This is certainly not the only reason.....

To all the folks on this thread wanting to match ACGME you absolutely need to take the USMLE.....it opens so many more doors for you. Your school, your friends, and many others may try to talk you out of it........DO NOT LISTEN. They are only closing doors for YOU. The number of kids that decide as an MS1 to not take USMLE and then regret that decision as an MS3 is huge.

Yeah seriously--I can't imagine why you wouldn't take the USMLE. It's the gold standard. When foreign grads come here to practice, they don't take the COMLEX; they take the USMLE.

 

[donkeykong1]

There's so much misinformation in this thread. Quit speculating and go back to studying guys.

 

[MrBeauregard]

This is certainly not the only reason.....

Never said it was the only reason. But you need to figure out how many applied before you say "only 5 DOs matched allergy/immunology".

 

[da Vincis World]

There's so much misinformation in this thread. Quit speculating and go back to studying guys.

Please enlighten us on this misinformation.

Do you think that DO discrimination suddenly disappears upon completing an ACGME residency?

Do you think that taking the USMLE is unnecessary?

 

[docnotsopc]

Please enlighten us on this misinformation.

Do you think that DO discrimination suddenly disappears upon completing an ACGME residency?

Do you think that taking the USMLE is unnecessary?

shhh let them think that, its more entertaining

 

[Dharma]

My initial instinct was to say "your mom is DO friendly." but that would be mean...

Seriously though, is this NOT an easily searchable topic? There's a million threads on this. Come on!

 

[Dr Dazzle]

My initial instinct was to say "your mom is DO friendly." but that would be mean...

Seriously though, is this NOT an easily searchable topic? There's a million threads on this. Come on!

Wanna post some good links for us then?

 

[Dharma]

Wanna post some good links for us then?

https://help.studentdoctor.net/home

The biggest benefit of being a member is enhanced search capability. And that's important because we have millions of posts, so chances are you'll find what you're looking for with a quick search.

 

[a runner]

My initial instinct was to say "your mom is DO friendly." but that would be mean...

Seriously though, is this NOT an easily searchable topic? There's a million threads on this. Come on!

Sure, maybe there are other threads, but there's always new information coming to light. Maybe there are a "million threads" because it's an important topic to DO students? Maybe it's because there are so many ins and outs and intricacies regarding this question, depending on which specialty you're talking about. I understand it can be annoying to to keep seeing the same topics pop up, but this seems as good a place as any to keep discussing them.

These other threads, did they already have the information I posted about regarding the most recent NRMP director's survey? Was everything else that has been discussed so far been covered in these other threads? If not, then the OP was right in starting this thread, IMO.

 

[Dr Dazzle]

sure, maybe there are other threads, but there's always new information coming to light. Maybe there are a "million threads" because it's an important topic to do students? Maybe it's because there are so many ins and outs and intricacies regarding this question, depending on which specialty you're talking about. I understand it can be annoying to to keep seeing the same topics pop up, but this seems as good a place as any to keep discussing them.

These other threads, did they already have the information i posted about regarding the most recent nrmp director's survey? Was everything else that has been discussed so far been covered in these other threads? If not, then the op was right in starting this thread, imo.

+1

 

[Dharma]

Sure, maybe there are other threads, but there's always new information coming to light. Maybe there are a "million threads" because it's an important topic to DO students? Maybe it's because there are so many ins and outs and intricacies regarding this question, depending on which specialty you're talking about. I understand it can be annoying to to keep seeing the same topics pop up, but this seems as good a place as any to keep discussing them.

These other threads, did they already have the information I posted about regarding the most recent NRMP director's survey? Was everything else that has been discussed so far been covered in these other threads? If not, then the OP was right in starting this thread, IMO.

I don't see anything new in this thread. Same ole, same ole. But this is the way of the land created by Dr. Lee I suppose...

 

[kgpremed11]

I have to generally agree with cliquesh's assessment.

You can read the NRMP's program director survey to get an idea. It tells you what percentage of PD's surveyed even interview DO's at their program.

Here's the rundown for 2012:

PM&R 97%
Psychiatry 94%
Family Medicine 93%
Pathology 91%
Pediatrics 87%
Anesthesiology 83%
Neurology 81%
Internal Medicine 79%
OB/GYN 77%
Radiology 69%
Emergency Medicine 68%
Radiation Oncology 63%
General Surgery 53%
Plastic Surgery 50%
Neurosurgery 38%
Dermatology 31%
Orthopedic Surgery 30%
ENT 28%

http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

I though Emergency Medicine would be a lot more friendly than that!

 

[docnotsopc]

https://help.studentdoctor.net/home

👍

 

[cabinbuilder]

Last year I think there were only 5 DO's who matched an allergy/immunology fellowship! Granted, I don't know how many applied, but it will definitely be harder. Definitely go the the best IM residency you can, or at least one that has all the major fellowships in-house.

WTF??? Because NOBODY WANTS TO DO THIS. It' BORING. Confining yourself to life at a big center in a larger city. Not everyone wants this for themselves. Ugh....

 

[BabyDoc86]

I have to generally agree with cliquesh's assessment.

You can read the NRMP's program director survey to get an idea. It tells you what percentage of PD's surveyed even interview DO's at their program.

Here's the rundown for 2012:

PM&R 97%
Psychiatry 94%
Family Medicine 93%
Pathology 91%
Pediatrics 87%
Anesthesiology 83%
Neurology 81%
Internal Medicine 79%
OB/GYN 77%
Radiology 69%
Emergency Medicine 68%
Radiation Oncology 63%
General Surgery 53%
Plastic Surgery 50%
Neurosurgery 38%
Dermatology 31%
Orthopedic Surgery 30%
ENT 28%

http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

Well, would you look at that! ALL of those specialties interview DOs.

 

[Procyon]

I think if you can match ACGME for IM, I don't see any problem matching a fellowship as a DO cause you are evaluated on your residency performance.

So say I wanted to do a fairly competitive fellowship like GI or cards. I'd probably have an equal shot at those as an allopathic student?

 

[Silent Cool]

So say I wanted to do a fairly competitive fellowship like GI or cards. I'd probably have an equal shot at those as an allopathic student?

I think you need to go to a GOOD IM residency--not a place like Santa Barbara Cottage. There aren't many GI spots nationwide, and you would be competing with people from Hopkins, Mass Gen, BWH, Stanford, UW, etc.. You had better get into a good IM program and perform well. No community-based, mediocre places.

 

[da Vincis World]

So say I wanted to do a fairly competitive fellowship like GI or cards. I'd probably have an equal shot at those as an allopathic student?

No. Those are very competitive fellowships. It is not impossible to land them but significantly more difficult without that MD behind your name, no matter where you do residency.

 

[Dr Dazzle]

No. Those are very competitive fellowships. It is not impossible to land them but significantly more difficult without that MD behind your name, no matter where you do residency.

I don't think the MD has much to do with it. In 2015, all residencies will be ACGME. However, the quality of the IM residency you match into will probably have an impact on fellowship opportunities. However, I'm sure there are exceptions. We need more knowledgeable people to comment on this. Especially current physicians and attendings who have been through all this. Seems most of the comments here are uninformed premedical or medical students.

 

[da Vincis World]

I don't think the MD has much to do with it. In 2015, all residencies will be ACGME. However, the quality of the IM residency you match into will probably have an impact on fellowship opportunities. However, I'm sure there are exceptions. We need more knowledgeable people to comment on this. Especially current physicians and attendings who have been through all this. Seems most of the comments here are uninformed premedical or medical students.

Think whatever you would like but you're wrong. Competitive fellowships in most fields are more difficult to get as a DO. To increase your chances you must take the USMLE and get into an excellent IM residency....preferably a program that offers the fellowship of interest.

I see no reason why the 2015 changes would affect bias against DOs in a fellowship match....

For you premeds and those that have recently started DO school, please take the USMLE. Your school may try to talk you out of it, other DOs may tell you it is not necessary but I have seen many, many DO students regret this decision come time to apply for residencies. Doing well on USMLE opens numerous doors for you.

 

[cliquesh]

No. Those are very competitive fellowships. It is not impossible to land them but significantly more difficult without that MD behind your name, no matter where you do residency.

I really don't think that's true at all. 5% of IM residents are DOs and 5% of GI and cards Fellows are DOs. It just seems proportional to however many DOs there are. Going to a good residency with fellowship options is all you need to do. Look at the alumi of various IM programs. DO placement doesn't seem to be any different than the MD placement. Yeah, there is still some DO bias, but it is significantly less than when applying for residency.
http://www.temple.edu/medicine/depa...artments/medicine_residency_postresidency.htm

 

[da Vincis World]

I really don't think that's true at all. 5% of IM residents are DOs and 5% of GI and cards Fellows are DOs. It just seems proportional to however many DOs there are. Going to a good residency with fellowship options is all you need to do. Look at the alumi of various IM programs. DO placement doesn't seem to be any different than the MD placement. Yeah, there is still some DO bias, but it is significantly less than when applying for residency.
http://www.temple.edu/medicine/depa...artments/medicine_residency_postresidency.htm

Your Temple example does a great job of illustrating bias and speaks well to my original post in this forum. Roughly 70% of the DOs that matched into fellowships from the Temple IM program matched in house(at Temple), while only about a third(32%) of the MDs matched in house.

This is exactly why I've been saying do well on USMLE and match at a good program that offers your desired fellowship.

I do agree that there is likely less bias in most fellowship selection but to think you are on equal footing is wrong.

 

[cliquesh]

Your Temple example does a great job of illustrating bias and speaks well to my original post in this forum. Roughly 70% of the DOs that matched into fellowships from the Temple IM program matched in house(at Temple), while only about a third(32%) of the MDs matched in house.

This is exactly why I've been saying do well on USMLE and match at a good program that offers your desired fellowship.

I do agree that there is likely less bias in most fellowship selection but to think you are on equal footing is wrong.

I don't disagree with this point at all.

I just think if you do make it to a university program, your odds of going on to a cards/GI/hem fellowship are not drastically lower than a USMD resident at the same program. It seems pretty much the same. You may have to stay on as an internal candidate, but whatever.

 

[Dr Dazzle]

I don't disagree with this point at all.

I just think if you do make it to a university program, your odds of going on to a cards/GI/hem fellowship are not drastically lower than a USMD resident at the same program. It seems pretty much the same. You may have to stay on as an internal candidate, but whatever.

Any idea on AOA IM fellowship opportunities?