DO ignorance sucks

[deleted407021]

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Oh, you might also want to consider Oregon by the way- it's got a lot of the same upsides as ME/VT/NH, but if you head farther to the South of the state it isn't as cold.

I've been reading a lot about that state and apparently there are quite a few "conservatives" but that apparently means something much different there than it does in the South and Midwest. Their conservatives would be our left centers.

VT also has the highest % of secular people in the US. 😀

 

[Mad Jack]

Quiet friendly country folks without the bigotry and backward thinking? Sounds great.

The people in Maine are some of the nicest ones I've ever met. I hear VT and NH are similar- people are just super polite and genuinely friendly.

 

[Mad Jack]

I've been reading a lot about that state and apparently there are quite a few "conservatives" but that apparently means something much different there than it does in the South and Midwest. Their conservatives would be our left centers.

There's a lot of them in Northeastern New England as well, but "conservative" here basically means a person that wants low taxes and supports the right to bear arms. They're not the Bible-beating, anti-abortion, anti-drug, anti-evolution types that are down South.

 

[deleted407021]

There's a lot of them in Northeastern New England as well, but "conservative" here basically means a person that wants low taxes and supports the right to bear arms. They're not the Bible-beating, anti-abortion, anti-drug, anti-evolution types that are down South.

They are driving me away from my Confederate heritage. The recent election of several state senators who were rated at 0% for civil liberties by the ACLU is just painful.

On a more pleasant not, apparently many Vermonters call mountains "moun-ains" and they call their state "Vermon", both with silent Ts. Maybe the french influence.

 

[allantois]

They are driving me away from my Confederate heritage. The recent election of several state senators who were rated at 0% for civil liberties by the ACLU is just painful.

On a more pleasant not, apparently many Vermonters call mountains "moun-ains" and they call their state "Vermon", both with silent Ts. Maybe the french influence.

The federal court of appeals in Atlanta has become one of the most liberal courts by composition. Hopefully that will make things a little better for Georgia.

On the similar note I'm shocked by some of the new senators that were elected in this midterm election. Like the one from Iowa!

 

[deleted407021]

The federal court of appeals in Atlanta has become one of the most liberal courts by composition. Hopefully that will make things a little better for Georgia.

On the similar note I'm shocked by some of the new senators that were elected in this midterm election. Like the one from Iowa!

😱 I heard about her! wtf!? Wrong on so many levels!

 

[mek117]

I hate dealing with DO ignorance now that I'm probably going to a DO school. It's especially worse because I work at Duke, which is a huge academic institution. My other co workers who are also in the pre med stage (but have been accepted to MD schools), refer to DO schools as "DO programs", not just medical school. Some of them even think that there is a hierarchy in hospitals that goes MD>DO>PA>NP>the rest

How pervasive is this mentality? I keep hearing that it's confined to the "old MD residency directors" but these are my contemporaries and potentially colleagues that old these ill and nasty views.

First I diffuse the debate by conceding that there are great MDs and ****ty MDs, just as there are great DOs and ****ty DOs. The degree itself is not a matter of better or worse, it's simply a preference.

My uncle has has been a family practice MD for 30 years and he's great. His pediatrician partner is a DO, and she's great. I've worked directly w good and bad of both. Around my job the pathologists are all MDs, so I've gotten a little judgement from a couple coworkers. But I just point out the cases that get sent to us from GPs, pediatricians, and oncologists- and there are plenty of DOs in the mix 🙂

 

[JimmyB123]

First I diffuse the debate by conceding that there are great MDs and ****ty MDs, just as there are great DOs and ****ty DOs. The degree itself is not a matter of better or worse, it's simply a preference.

My uncle has has been a family practice MD for 30 years and he's great. His pediatrician partner is a DO, and she's great. I've worked directly w good and bad of both. Around my job the pathologists are all MDs, so I've gotten a little judgement from a couple coworkers. But I just point out the cases that get sent to us from GPs, pediatricians, and oncologists- and there are plenty of DOs in the mix 🙂

What kind of judgement have you gotten?

 

[cryhavoc]

I know some pre-meds who act like being a DO isn't like being a real doctor. But I work at a major hospital and over half of the doctors I see there have DO on their coats.

 

[mek117]

It's mostly just a quick facial expression that's either, "wtf is osteopathic?" which I'm happy to explain, or like "oh..... so you couldn't get into MD." I generally don't even acknowledge those because then I'm acting like I have something to justify. But if they outright say something, I tell them about my pleasant experiences w DOs, and that I'm really excited about OMM.

I've had a co worker say "aren't those programs easier to get into?" And I say yeah the scores do tend to be slightly lower than MD schools, but that's because they value non traditional students with a variety of backgrounds (like me).

We had another co worker who got is MD in the Caribbean then worked w us til he could get his match in family medicine, so I get compared to that. But I feel the same way about Caribbean- ultimately we're all physicians. All that matters in the end is how well you do your job.

Long story short- it's all in how you present yourself. Be proud- you're going to be a physician!

 

[seminoma]

It's mostly just a quick facial expression that's either, "wtf is osteopathic?" which I'm happy to explain, or like "oh..... so you couldn't get into MD." I generally don't even acknowledge those because then I'm acting like I have something to justify. But if they outright say something, I tell them about my pleasant experiences w DOs, and that I'm really excited about OMM.

I've had a co worker say "aren't those programs easier to get into?" And I say yeah the scores do tend to be slightly lower than MD schools, but that's because they value non traditional students with a variety of backgrounds (like me).

We had another co worker who got is MD in the Caribbean then worked w us til he could get his match in family medicine, so I get compared to that. But I feel the same way about Caribbean- ultimately we're all physicians. All that matters in the end is how well you do your job.

Long story short- it's all in how you present yourself. Be proud- you're going to be a physician!

"Slightly lower" is false. And DO schools would have the same stats as MD schools if they had the same applicant pool. A non-trad with a 4.0/40 is going to take the spot instead of a non-trad with a 3.3/27 every single time. Lucky for those 3.3/27s, DO schools don't get enough 4.0/40 applicants to fill their classes. Sorry. DOs are equivalent to MDs in the real world, but DO applicants are not equivalent to MD applicants.

 

[mek117]

I guess I'm confused what your point is. You say "slightly lower is false" but then point out that the DO applicant pool is in fact unequal to the MD applicant pool (I assume saying that DO applicants are < MD applicants). So what makes my statement false? The word "slightly"? Whatever, it's a subjective word. No I'm not comparing top tier MD to DO. But the overall avg MCAT scores for matriculating MD to matriculating DO don't seem hugely different to me. Avg for matriculating MD is 31.3 SD 4.0, avg matriculating DO is 26.26 SD 4.18. That leaves plenty of overlap in the middle, in my book.

However it seems like a moot point since you seem to agree w me? In the real world DO vs MD doesn't matter...

Another favorite retort, Q: "what do you call a graduate from a DO program?" A: "Doctor"

 

[el_duderino]

There's plenty of overlap sure. But you can't pretend 26 and 31 are basically the same.

 

[user3]

I guess I'm confused what your point is. You say "slightly lower is false" but then point out that the DO applicant pool is in fact unequal to the MD applicant pool (I assume saying that DO applicants are < MD applicants). So what makes my statement false? The word "slightly"? Whatever, it's a subjective word. No I'm not comparing top tier MD to DO. But the overall avg MCAT scores for matriculating MD to matriculating DO don't seem hugely different to me. Avg for matriculating MD is 31.3 SD 4.0, avg matriculating DO is 26.26 SD 4.18. That leaves plenty of overlap in the middle, in my book.

However it seems like a moot point since you seem to agree w me? In the real world DO vs MD doesn't matter...

Another favorite retort, Q: "what do you call a graduate from a DO program?" A: "Doctor"

Median MD matriculant MCAT: 32
Median DO matriculant MCAT: 27
Median MCAT score: 26

This issue isn't so much that those with lower scores won't make competent doctors. However, having equal admissions standards would certainly go a long way in giving credibility to the assertion of MD=DO.

 

[mek117]

There's plenty of overlap sure. But you can't pretend 26 and 31 are basically the same.

No not at all. Okay, we'll remove the word "slightly"- scores are lower for DO applicants. That's a fact. That being said, everybody knows it comes down to more than MCAT and GPA. If a DO applicant has a 24 MCAT, I do believe that they will likely need an amazing GPA and amazing work experience to compensate for that fact. My point was DO will be more forgiving than MD, meaning that where the MD school would say "24? No way," the DO school might at least give you a chance to compensate w other factors (GPA, job experience, etc). But you Would still have to compensate somewhere, even for DO.

I suppose in my head in envisioning a Venn diagram. Even a bell curve. To the right of the bell curve are the best MD applicants, to the left are the worst DO applicants, but the majority of people fall somewhere in between, when All application factors are taken into consideration. My belief is that MD schools will put more emphasis on MCAT and GPA. DO will accept lower scores, generally with contingency that you can compensate elsewhere (work/clinical experience).

 

[el_duderino]

We can't pretend that DO schools are, for the most part, choosing among the students that don't get an MD acceptance.

Obviously the market is flooded with extremely talented, qualified candidates. And obviously DO schools are doing a great job of manufacturing physicians. But that doesn't change the reality of admissions.

 

[user3]

Obviously the market is flooded with extremely talented, qualified candidates.

yet why is 3.3/3.3/25 enough to get into a DO school (assuming no red flags)? 3.3/3.3/25 by itself is hardly talented nor "highly qualified", yet it IS sufficient to get in somewhere.

And please don't start a spiel about yes they might get in but they'll need strong EC's and interview skills and bla bla bla-- that is simply not the case.

 

[user3]

No not at all. Okay, we'll remove the word "slightly"- scores are lower for DO applicants. That's a fact. That being said, everybody knows it comes down to more than MCAT and GPA. If a DO applicant has a 24 MCAT, I do believe that they will likely need an amazing GPA and amazing work experience to compensate for that fact. My point was DO will be more forgiving than MD, meaning that where the MD school would say "24? No way," the DO school might at least give you a chance to compensate w other factors (GPA, job experience, etc). But you Would still have to compensate somewhere, even for DO.

I suppose in my head in envisioning a Venn diagram. Even a bell curve. To the right of the bell curve are the best MD applicants, to the left are the worst DO applicants, but the majority of people fall somewhere in between, when All application factors are taken into consideration. My belief is that MD schools will put more emphasis on MCAT and GPA. DO will accept lower scores, generally with contingency that you can compensate elsewhere (work/clinical experience).

I will repeat for the record: 32 vs 27.

We need to admit that our applicant pool is not as strong. And we need to stop making these hollow excuses for our lower admission standards.

The sooner we admit to this problem, the sooner we can take stops to solve it and bring our schools to a little more respectability.

 

[mek117]

I will repeat for the record: 32 vs 27. We need to admit that our applicant pool simply is not as strong, and stop making these hollow excuses for our markedly lower admission standards.

The sooner we admit to this problem, the sooner we can take stops to solve it and bring our schools to a little more respectability.

So you're suggestion is that DO and MD should have the same avg mcat? If the same pool of students ultimately matriculate, wouldn't that just bring down the avg scores for MD schools while raising the avg scores for DO schools? What would be the point of that? The same matriculants would still become doctors..

For the record I don't think ECs or relevant work experience are "hollow excuses" lol. When you're acting as a physician, your relevant work experience (say, oncology research, or being a paramedic, for example) will be far more relevant than your MCAT scores. That's like caring about job applicants' SAT scores after they have their bachelor's degrees (you don't). You may however care about the relevant work experience they gained while in college...

Scores and GPAs are great indicators of how somebody will perform within a given program, so by all means they are relevant to ad coms. But once all degrees are obtained and boards are passed, they become utterly irrelevant.

 

[mek117]

yet why is 3.3/3.3/25 enough to get into a DO school (assuming no red flags)? 3.3/3.3/25 by itself is hardly talented nor "highly qualified", yet it IS sufficient to get in somewhere.

And please don't start a spiel about yes they might get in but they'll need strong EC's and interview skills and bla bla bla-- that is simply not the case.

I suppose I'm looking at the big picture. When I'm looking at schools (MD, DO, Caribbean, whatever) I (and anybody hiring a physician) care more what the end product is. ie board scores. As long as they measure up in the end, why do you care what MCAT scores they accept?

 

[user3]

.

 

[el_duderino]

I suppose I'm looking at the big picture. When I'm looking at schools (MD, DO, Caribbean, whatever) I (and anybody hiring a physician) care more what the end product is. ie board scores. As long as they measure up in the end, why do you care what MCAT scores they accept?

Board scores are not the end product. Physicians are. Adcoms are trying to pick candidates who will make good physicians, not necessarily the best board scores. There is a lot more to being a clinician than board scores.

 

[mek117]

Board scores are not the end product. Physicians are. Adcoms are trying to pick candidates who will make good physicians, not necessarily the best board scores. There is a lot more to being a clinician than board scores.

Amen to that! I think you can tell from the tone of all of my previous posts that I completely agree w that sentiment. However I don't know of an objective way to measure physician goodness, so in terms of objectively comparing DO vs MD programs, or DO programs to other DO programs, my point was that I value far more highly the board scores that are Produced over the MCAT scores that are Accepted. ie output of the program vs input. Take this another step further past boards, and you get "good physicians" as you pointed out. Like I said, I simply don't know of an objective measure for this.

Funny you even made that point, I feel like you've jumped over to my side of the argument- that is, my initial statement that we will all be physicians so who cares about MCAT scores??

 

[mek117]

Let's not forget how much hard work, sacrifice, and challenge it took for the osteopathic profession to survive and make it to where it is today. In light of this, we have an obligation to continue to improve the reputation and image of our degrees. Allowing a substantially lower bar for entry compared to our allopathic counterparts does not accomplish this-- and gives ammo to those who question our training.

I agree w your concerns- hopefully someday soon the public perception of MD and DO Will be the same. I think we just disagree on the means to get there. I personally don't believe that increasing the admissions standards will fix the perception.

As I believe you stated (could have been another person sorry), there are certain strong applicants who would never look at DO schools. So if DO schools were to say "no MCATs below 26 will be accepted," well that doesn't mean suddenly higher MCAT scorers will apply, it just means those people w 25s and 24s won't be accepted which means empty seats in programs (or else those spots would have already been filled by higher MCAT scorers in the first place, right?). It seems pretty reckless to have empty seats in order to raise the "avg DO MCAT" when there is a nationwide physician shortage.

Instead why don't we improve public perception of DOs by continuing to produce great physicians, thereby recruiting higher-scoring applicants? This appears to be the current trajectory (avg matriculating DO MCAT scores have been on the rise), without having to assign arbitrary new score minimums yet. The minimum requirements will continue to rise as the applicant pool gets stronger and stronger.

That's just how I look at it

 

[user3]

I agree w your concerns- hopefully someday soon the public perception of MD and DO Will be the same. I think we just disagree on the means to get there. I personally don't believe that increasing the admissions standards will fix the perception.

As I believe you stated (could have been another person sorry), there are certain strong applicants who would never look at DO schools. So if DO schools were to say "no MCATs below 26 will be accepted," well that doesn't mean suddenly higher MCAT scorers will apply, it just means those people w 25s and 24s won't be accepted which means empty seats in programs (or else those spots would have already been filled by higher MCAT scorers in the first place, right?). It seems pretty reckless to have empty seats in order to raise the "avg DO MCAT" when there is a nationwide physician shortage.

Instead why don't we improve public perception of DOs by continuing to produce great physicians, thereby recruiting higher-scoring applicants? This appears to be the current trajectory (avg matriculating DO MCAT scores have been on the rise), without having to assign arbitrary new score minimums yet. The minimum requirements will continue to rise as the applicant pool gets stronger and stronger.

That's just how I look at it

that isn't going to cut it. we have basically been doing this for decades.

Here is my proposal: have all DO schools join AMCAS. Having all premeds apply side-by-side to MD and DO schools could help bring more visibility and credibility to DO schools as being legitimate MEDICAL SCHOOLS, and give them a much wider, stronger applicant pool to select from. Individual schools could continue to employ grade replacement if they wish.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

that isn't going to cut it. we have basically been doing this for decades.

Here is my proposal: have all DO schools join AMCAS. Having all premeds apply side-by-side to MD and DO schools could help bring more visibility and credibility to DO schools as being legitimate MEDICAL SCHOOLS, and give them a much wider, stronger applicant pool to select from. Individual schools could continue to employ grade replacement if they wish.

Interesting thought.

 

[mek117]

that isn't going to cut it. we have basically been doing this for decades.

Here is my proposal: have all DO schools join AMCAS. Having all premeds apply side-by-side to MD and DO schools could help bring more visibility and credibility to DO schools as being legitimate MEDICAL SCHOOLS, and give them a much wider, stronger applicant pool to select from. Individual schools could continue to employ grade replacement if they wish.

I'm not opposed to that, maybe it will ultimately go that direction after the residencies merge?

 

[deleted436726]

that isn't going to cut it. we have basically been doing this for decades.

Here is my proposal: have all DO schools join AMCAS. Having all premeds apply side-by-side to MD and DO schools could help bring more visibility and credibility to DO schools as being legitimate MEDICAL SCHOOLS, and give them a much wider, stronger applicant pool to select from. Individual schools could continue to employ grade replacement if they wish.

If DO schools join AMCAS, things won't end well for the silly premeds who apply to literally every school and end up walking into an interview at one without any idea about the profession.

"So why DO?"
"Dee-O?"
"Yes, why osteopathic medicine."
"What's that?"

*interviewer facepalms*

 

[user3]

If DO schools join AMCAS, things won't end well for the silly premeds who apply to literally every school and end up walking into one without any idea about the profession.

"So why DO?"
"Dee-O?"
"Yes, why osteopathic medicine."
"What's that?"

*interviewer facepalms*

let me tell you about these things called secondaries...

 

[deleted436726]

let me tell you about these things called secondaries...

True, but there are several schools (MD as well as DO) whose secondaries can be answered without any specific knowledge about the school.

 

[user3]

True, but there are several schools (MD as well as DO) whose secondaries can be answered without any specific knowledge about the school.

then if DO schools get swamped with ignorant interviewees, they can change their secondary requirements.

edit: funny post, nonetheless.

 

[deleted436726]

then if DO schools get swamped with ignorant interviewees, they can change their secondary requirements.

edit: funny post, nonetheless.

But then how will they get donations in the form of secondary app fees?

 

[67552931811]

But then how will they get donations in the form of secondary app fees?

I had always wondered if my iPhone emojis would work on here. Thanks for taking that leap..

 

[GUH]

"Slightly lower" is false. And DO schools would have the same stats as MD schools if they had the same applicant pool. A non-trad with a 4.0/40 is going to take the spot instead of a non-trad with a 3.3/27 every single time. Lucky for those 3.3/27s, DO schools don't get enough 4.0/40 applicants to fill their classes. Sorry. DOs are equivalent to MDs in the real world, but DO applicants are not equivalent to MD applicants.

Show me an MD class with a 4.0/40 average. Go ahead, I'll wait.

 

[radkat101]

Show me an MD class with a 4.0/40 average. Go ahead, I'll wait.

I think it just means they have more applicants with stats like that to choose from, which boosts their overall averages. It's a fair point, and I don't think there is much room to argue against the applicant pool being weaker. The difference between a 26 and 31 mcat is significant. That gap was 3 months of pretty hardcore studying for me. In the end it really doesn't matter though. Everyone still has to make it through med school in one piece. If the letters "DO" became "MD", there would be little to no difference in stats. Pretty crazy that's all it would take.

 

[GUH]

then if DO schools get swamped with ignorant interviewees, they can change their secondary requirements.

edit: funny post, nonetheless.

...or they can keep a separate application process.
The last thing the profession needs is more MD rejects who don't care at all about osteopathic medicine.

 

[user3]

If the letters "DO" became "MD", there would be little to no difference in stats. Pretty crazy that's all it would take.

This is a dilemma to me. On one hand, we could try to take various steps to improve the image of the DO degree, like raising admission standards, cleaning up OMM, engaging in more research, attaching to strong universities, or having uniform accrediation standards.

On the other hand, we could just convert to "MD, DO" schools, and 99% of problems will be solved. With the latter however, the huge obstacle would be getting the AOA on board with it, and maintaining any "distinction" would be even more challenging.

 

[user3]

...or they can keep a separate application process.
The last thing the profession needs is more MD rejects who don't care at all about osteopathic medicine.

-TCOM uses the same app as TX MD schools, is HIGHLY competitive, and has been dubbed the "crown jewel" of DO schools, to quote a former AOA president.
-Most DO students apply and matriculate as a back-up to MD programs. This isn't a secret.
-At the least, it would help bring more awareness to DO schools.

 

[radkat101]

This is a dilemma to me. On one hand, we could try to take various steps to improve the image of the DO degree, like raising admission standards, cleaning up OMM, engaging in more research, or attaching to strong universities. On the other hand, we could just convert to "MD, DO" schools, and 99% of problems will be solved. With the latter however, the huge obstacle would be getting the AOA on board with it, and maintaining any "distinction" would be even more challenging.

Yeah, all the things you mentioned to "improve the image" would basically be making DO schools more like MD schools anyway. I have no problem becoming a DO, but I really don't understand what all the hype is about DO's being so different that it justifies an entirely different degree nowadays. It's just so weird and unnecessary to me. Maybe it's just my school.

 

[el_duderino]

Amen to that! I think you can tell from the tone of all of my previous posts that I completely agree w that sentiment. However I don't know of an objective way to measure physician goodness, so in terms of objectively comparing DO vs MD programs, or DO programs to other DO programs, my point was that I value far more highly the board scores that are Produced over the MCAT scores that are Accepted. ie output of the program vs input. Take this another step further past boards, and you get "good physicians" as you pointed out. Like I said, I simply don't know of an objective measure for this.

Funny you even made that point, I feel like you've jumped over to my side of the argument- that is, my initial statement that we will all be physicians so who cares about MCAT scores??

I'm not on anyone's side. Scores matter a great deal but some small differencesnin scores and GPA can be insignificant compared to judgment and character. But the bottom line is still that DO schools are largely choosing among the students who did not make it into an MD program, even though those students may make good physicians.

 

[seminoma]

Show me an MD class with a 4.0/40 average. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Perhaps I overestimated the DO student's ability to read between the lines. I meant that the statistical differential between MD matriculants and DO matriculants is primarily due to the stats of the applicant pool, as opposed to the different "values" of admissions committees. Perhaps DO schools do give a little more consideration to intangibles like "life experience" compared to MD schools, but there are more than enough 3.7/32 (i.e. MD average) non-trads with "life experience" to fill DO schools. It just so happens that most of them are going to MD schools instead. There's also the notion that DO schools hesitate to accept students with high stats because "that student will probably go to an MD school anyway and we don't want them to hold the spot of another student who, if accepted, would probably matriculate". However I don't know if that has ever been confirmed by a DO admissions committee or if it's just speculation by SDN.

More concretely, if MD schools stopped matriculating students next year, then the DO matriculant average would shoot right up to the current MD average. It's no different than any other competition.. The level of difficulty is based on the competitors, not on the judges.

 

[DrEnderW]

Perhaps I overestimated the DO student's ability to read between the lines.

 

[yankees527]

I feel like once we start med school, and get far far away from ignorant premeds at our undergrads, we wont have to deal with nearly as much ignorance.

 

[Instatewaiter]

If the letters "DO" became "MD", there would be little to no difference in stats. Pretty crazy that's all it would take.

There is more to desirability than just the letters: Location plays a large role as does clinical quality, feel and the like.
There's a reason why schools in Boston are more competitive than say Medical College of Wisconsin.

 

[DrEnderW]

There is more to desirability than just the letters: Location plays a large role as does clinical quality, feel and the like.
There's a reason why schools in Boston are more competitive than say Medical College of Wisconsin.

Absolutely.

Within the DO community, this is why Touro NY (NYC) and Touro CA (SF) have 30-31 MCAT averages and why Chicago COM has such a relatively high GPA.

 

[user3]

There is more to desirability than just the letters: Location plays a large role as does clinical quality, feel and the like.
There's a reason why schools in Boston are more competitive than say Medical College of Wisconsin.

I think the primary hesitation of most premeds to DO schools is a matter of initials. If it were "MD, DO", I doubt people would care much about OMM, questionable clinicals, 2 boards, or difficulties matching competitively.

 

[Seth Joo]

There is more to desirability than just the letters: Location plays a large role as does clinical quality, feel and the like.
There's a reason why schools in Boston are more competitive than say Medical College of Wisconsin.

LOL, I am from Boston, and yes its very difficult to get into medical school in Boston, that is why I am in Arizona. Apparently California is another tough place to get into as far as Allopathic schools, so we got a lot of California residents at my school as well. Its not uncommon for me to have classmates who had a 3.8 GPA and 33+ MCATs.

 

[hallowmann]

I will repeat for the record: 32 vs 27.

We need to admit that our applicant pool is not as strong. And we need to stop making these hollow excuses for our lower admission standards.

The sooner we admit to this problem, the sooner we can take stops to solve it and bring our schools to a little more respectability.

MD median score is 31. DO median score is 27. The difference is 1 SD for both MCAT and GPAs. That means that the top 50% of DO matriculants overlap with the 16.5-50 percentile MD matriculants. Most likely, something like 70% or so of DO matriculants fall within 2 SDs of MD matriculants.

There is certainly a difference, but let's not exaggerate things. It is not a stretch to say that had most DO matriculants been born in a specific state, been a specific age, applied to a specific school, or simply just had better luck, they would likely be MDs. It's not like we're talking about two completely separate populations.

 

[user3]

.

 

[IslandStyle808]

MD median score is 31. DO median score is 27. The difference is 1 SD for both MCAT and GPAs. That means that the top 50% of DO matriculants overlap with the 16.5-50 percentile MD matriculants. Most likely, something like 70% or so of DO matriculants fall within 2 SDs of MD matriculants.

There is certainly a difference, but let's not exaggerate things. It is not a stretch to say that had most DO matriculants been born in a specific state, been a specific age, applied to a specific school, or simply just had better luck, they would likely be MDs. It's not like we're talking about two completely separate populations.

Hallowmann has made a very valid point here. It is not like all DO applicants exclusively apply to DO schools. A while back I remember doing a post showing the difference in GPA between applicants and matriculants for both MD and DO schools. I found that the difference for MD schools was .14 and for DO schools it was .07. At the time I really thought it was because MD schools were more stat oriented. This is not really true. The reason for the discrepancy is because those same stellar students that applied to DO schools actually had been accepted and matriculated to MD schools. This is why the difference in GPA between accepted and matriculants for DO schools was .07. It wasn't because DO schools weren't as stat oriented as MD schools. It is true that the applicant stats are lower on the DO side, but the reason the matriculant stats are not as high as they should be is because of those students who matriculated into MD schools instead of DO schools.