DO LOR to both MD and DO schools

[RySerr21]

before i get reemed, i did a search and found nothing useful.


here is my situation: I was planning on using an MD LOR for the MD schools and a DO LOR for the DO schools. I asked the MD for a LOR and he politely declined because he said it was too long ago and didnt feel he would be able to write a strong one. I am going tomorrow to ask the DO for a LOR and I cant think of any reason he would say no.

So, Here is my question: the only reason I can think DO schools would recommend or require a DO letter is b/c in the letter the DO could write something about how you would fit into the osteopathic philosophy or whatever, on top of all the other general stuff you say in a LOR. Other than that, i can see no other reason a DO would be preferred over an MD b/c they can both write essentailly the same letters.

I obviously can't use that type of letter for the MD programs, so should I:

a) ask the DO to write me two letters - one specific to DO schools and one not specific to DO schools that I can use for the MD app.

b) should i just ask him for one general LOR that would work for both types of schools. this would only be a problem if DO schools were expecting something DO specific in the LOR from a DO.


hope that wasn't confusing. thanks in advance for all input!

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[gasapple]

I'd keep it separate IMHO - the DO letter to all DO medical schools. The title of your "recommender" will be evident. I used MD letters exclusively for a couple of cycles and then I got in extra volunteer time with a superb DO. I can honestly say that in my situation, I believe the only thing holding me back was the letter from the DO. I'm convinced that this letter made all the difference for me; granted, it was very strong and that might have had something to do with it as well.

You'll have people post that they got in with MD only but it'll definitely help for you to have that DO letter, at least I'm convinced. So, IMO, if you're applying to both, get both types to respective schools.

 

[aliDO]

Asking him to ask for two letter might be pushing it. Most doctors are really busy as it is. You'll want a strong DO letter for the DO schools, so a general letter might not be so good. How long ago did you shadow the MD? Is there another MD you might be able to shadow?

 

[RySerr21]

I'd keep it separate IMHO - the DO letter to all DO medical schools. The title of your "recommender" will be evident. I used MD letters exclusively for a couple of cycles and then I got in extra volunteer time with a superb DO. I can honestly say that in my situation, I believe the only thing holding me back was the letter from the DO. I'm convinced that this letter made all the difference for me; granted, it was very strong and that might have had something to do with it as well.

You'll have people post that they got in with MD only but it'll definitely help for you to have that DO letter, at least I'm convinced. So, IMO, if you're applying to both, get both types to respective schools.

I have a strong DO letter. My question is whether or not it should be specific to DO programs b/c if it is I will have no LOR for the MD programs.

 

[RySerr21]

Asking him to ask for two letter might be pushing it. Most doctors are really busy as it is. You'll want a strong DO letter for the DO schools, so a general letter might not be so good. How long ago did you shadow the MD? Is there another MD you might be able to shadow?

The last time i worked with the MD was summer between my freshman and sophmore year of college (i'm a junior now). It was a meaningful experience that resulted in two reseach publications so it was kind of surprising he said no....but oh well.

i dont have any other MD as of now. I've been focusing on getting experience with DOs and haven't really been dealing with MDs as of late. I could always find one to shadow last minute if I have to.

is my assumption right in the sense that a "strong DO letter" will talk about how I am right for the osteopathic profession and all of that?

 

[gasapple]

I have a strong DO letter. My question is whether or not it should be specific to DO programs b/c if it is I will have no LOR for the MD programs.

I get it and my answer was suppose to convey "yes" - use your DO for DO medical schools but get a separate for allo, at least I would. Does the AAMC explicitly state that the letter needs to be from an MD or simply a physician? I don't recall to be honest. If that's the case (terminology is "physician"), it wouldn't be a problem to use your DO letter across the board I wouldn't imagine. I did MD for allo and those DO schools that accepted it. I got many more bites from DO medical schools when I utilized the DO letter in a subsequent cycle. Yea, that's what I was hoping to convey...

 

[gasapple]

is my assumption right in the sense that a "strong DO letter" will talk about how I am right for the osteopathic profession and all of that?

It's possible but it'd likely be more standard in that it would elaborate on "why you're right for medicine", first and foremost. The DO might decide to elaborate on some of your unique characteristics and the impact you might make on the DO profession down the road as well. So yes, your assumption might prove true.

 

[Flushot]

I'm in a similar situation, except unlike the OP, I don't have two letters or access to two potential letters.

I'm currently writing my own LOR through a DO I am currently shadowing and unfortunately, he doesn't really go for the DO philosophy or anything attributed to it. Rather, he views it all as medicine, which I think is good, but if I wanted something DO specific, I can't bring myself to write it and show it to him.

Would it be safer to just speak generally and introduce him as a DO in the first paragraph? I was planning on this, but I'd like to know what you all think.

 

[gasapple]

I'm in a similar situation, except unlike the OP, I don't have two letters or access to two potential letters.

I'm currently writing my own LOR through a DO I am currently shadowing and unfortunately, he doesn't really go for the DO philosophy or anything attributed to it. Rather, he views it all as medicine, which I think is good, but if I wanted something DO specific, I can't bring myself to write it and show it to him.

Would it be safer to just speak generally and introduce him as a DO in the first paragraph? I was planning on this, but I'd like to know what you all think.

I wouldn't delineate anything specific regarding credentials early on - just start it like any other recommendation letter. His/Her credentials should be included in the typed name below the signature space.

For example:

I am writing this letter in support of XXXXX's application for admission to medical school. I first met XXXXX when he was an undergraduate advisee of mine during the Fall of 2003. He was later a student in my senior level molecular biology lecture and laboratory courses and worked as a research assistant in my laboratory for a number of years...

-or-

I am delighted to write a letter of recommendation for XXXXX for the admission to your next medical school class. I have known XXXXX for over X years and I first met him when he shadowed me at <hospital or practice> . XXXXX is well prepared for the rigors of medical school training based on...



XXXXX, D.O.
Department of Emergency Medicine

-or-

XXXXX, Ph.D.
Assoc. Prof. Biological Sciences

 

[RySerr21]

I'm in a similar situation, except unlike the OP, I don't have two letters or access to two potential letters.

I'm currently writing my own LOR through a DO I am currently shadowing and unfortunately, he doesn't really go for the DO philosophy or anything attributed to it. Rather, he views it all as medicine, which I think is good, but if I wanted something DO specific, I can't bring myself to write it and show it to him.

ive always been confused when someone says they are writing their own LOR. can you explain why you would do this as opposed to having the DO write one his/herself? i didnt realize this was an option.

gasapple thanks for the help!

 

[aliDO]

ive always been confused when someone says they are writing their own LOR. can you explain why you would do this as opposed to having the DO write one his/herself? i didnt realize this was an option.

gasapple thanks for the help!

Doctor's that are too busy or just don't want to do it ask for you to write your own letter. Then you give it to them to sign. While it's ok if they ask you, I wouldn't ask the doctor if you can do this.

 

[Flushot]

Thanks gasapple, although, I'm probably going to be brutally honest and just say that I only have a short term relationship with him, since I am only shadowing him for today, tomorrow, and the day after.

And I also took out beginning sentence "My name is ___, D.O., M.B.A." so that should be good.

Now is rather the notion of figuring out what to possibly say. I guess generally is the way to go?

And ryserr, the whole writing the LOR yourself and having them sign off is pretty common from what I hear. Attendings often do it too because I would think they're probably getting multiple requests and barraged with their own work.

I think, like many others, I would prefer much more to not write my own letter. Not that I don't want to take the time, but being honest about myself and having the "writer" agree with me is pretty tough. Granted, the advantage is that you can control the quality of writing. I'm glad he is reading over my letter before printing it on his letterhead, but for some, they'll just sign it, so the quality is completely up to the applicant.

 

[aliDO]

The last time i worked with the MD was summer between my freshman and sophmore year of college (i'm a junior now). It was a meaningful experience that resulted in two reseach publications so it was kind of surprising he said no....but oh well.

i dont have any other MD as of now. I've been focusing on getting experience with DOs and haven't really been dealing with MDs as of late. I could always find one to shadow last minute if I have to.

is my assumption right in the sense that a "strong DO letter" will talk about how I am right for the osteopathic profession and all of that?

I don't really know what my DO will say, but I should be getting a copy in the mail in the next couple of days. I'll let you know. I would think so too, but keep in mind, some don't even have DO letters.

 

[RySerr21]

And ryserr, the whole writing the LOR yourself and having them sign off is pretty common from what I hear. Attendings often do it too because I would think they're probably getting multiple requests and barraged with their own work.

do you have to let the adcoms know you wrote it yourself? or is it indistinguishable from any other letter?

 

[Flushot]

do you have to let the adcoms know you wrote it yourself? or is it indistinguishable from any other letter?

I don't believe you have to tell them that you personally wrote it for them to sign off. I think most situations involve the professor/physician/whoever reading it before they sign it in case you write something ridiculous or you misunderstood something.

But, formal procedure, I don't think there is any. You should write things that already know about you, and avoid things like "I believe this constitutes the majority of my work" etc. unless he/she actually said that to you. I mean, you can only say so much and as my DO told me "the shorter the better. adcoms hate reading these things all day" and I'm going to believe him on that.

I'm wrapping mine up and I think he'll probably make adjustments, but seeing as how I did most of the work and laid it out for him, I think he'll work with me.

 

[gasapple]

do you have to let the adcoms know you wrote it yourself? or is it indistinguishable from any other letter?

The point would be for it to save time, effort, and really to be indistinguishable - the physician is endorsing the letter as his/her own. I'd sincerely hope the recommending physician would take the time to thoroughly view and make changes and add to your draft letter, fully realizing the potential impact and comprehending the significance. If they compose the letter on their own, often they'll let you read the drafts prior to sending.

I think your "recommender" should put forth a noticeable amount of effort by taking the time to review things and make changes before signing off. If that doesn't happen, I'd probably work at developing a more in-depth relationship by discussing things over coffee in the hospital cafeteria - maybe even do something to help the doc in order to free up some time to discuss. Lastly, often you'll have to stay on top of things to get them mailed out to multiple schools in a timely fashion. I never used Interfolio because a good number of my "folks" (physicians and professors) did it the "old fashioned" way and preferred the hard copy letter mailed from their offices. It's a good idea to print out mailing labels (although some docs will have their office staff handle that part) for all destinations and provide it to the person writing your letter. Follow up in person if possible to ensure the letters were sent and ice the cake with some donuts or a fruit basket for the doc and his/her staff. You never know when/if you might need them again.

 

[gasapple]

gasapple thanks for the help!

Don't mention it. Drop questions anytime.

Thanks gasapple, although, I'm probably going to be brutally honest and just say that I only have a short term relationship with him, since I am only shadowing him for today, tomorrow, and the day after.

And I also took out beginning sentence "My name is ___, D.O., M.B.A." so that should be good.

Now is rather the notion of figuring out what to possibly say. I guess generally is the way to go?

I think it's more difficult to draft your own letter for the simple fact that most well-centered people will be challenged to flatter themselves.

Might try something like this after the initial sentences:

Mr. XXXXX spent approximately 75 hours in our Emergency Room shadowing designated physicians. During his observation timeframe in the ER, Mr. XXXXX was enthusiastic, inquisitive, and interacted superbly with all the medical professionals he observed and assisted (use "assist" very lightly even though some docs will supervise you to do more). It is obvious that Mr. XXXXX is very committed to medicine and no letter would be complete without mention of <your particular positive attributes>...


Hope that helps some.

 

[Flushot]

Sounds good, even though I already sort of printed out a first draft by the time I got to this. I think I need a few more sentences, so when draft 2 rolls, I'll just suggest that to him and see what he thinks.

To be honest, it would be easier if a professor asked me to write my own rather than a physician I've known for such a short period of time. Drawing conclusions is not my expertise

EDIT - I am using Interfolio, and he is a fan of the paperless junk so he might be scanning it and sending it online or something electronic, so I'll know right away. When I think about it, the next few generations of applicants might have it pretty easy when it comes to paperwork.

 

[gasapple]

Drawing conclusions is not my expertise

Don't be overly modest. In fact, brag a bit.

EDIT - I am using Interfolio, and he is a fan of the paperless junk so he might be scanning it and sending it online or something electronic, so I'll know right away. When I think about it, the next few generations of applicants might have it pretty easy when it comes to paperwork.

True and some just have their preferences... paperless is the way to go, no doubt.

 

[RockfordWF]

I have a strong DO letter. My question is whether or not it should be specific to DO programs b/c if it is I will have no LOR for the MD programs.

No, it shouldn't. Send the letter to ALL schools.

I had an MD and a DO letter and I sent both to all MD and DO schools.

 

[Zerosixjt]

Use the letter from DO for all schools. A strong letter from any physician is great. Ask for a letter that highlights why you would be a good "medical student" and what your personal qualities are. You can field the questions about why oseopathic medicine on your own in the interview.

 

[gasapple]

Depends on exactly what the AAMC instructions state. Physician or MD specifically? Follow instructions.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

Depends on exactly what the AAMC instructions state. Physician or MD specifically? Follow instructions.

On the University of Utah's secondary app they clearly ask whether your letter was from an MD or a DO. The info from this I'm taking is that it is clearly alright to use a DO recommendation at least for some schools, you might want to look into the MD schools your applying to.

Also, Gasapple has got to be the quickest person to go from pre-med-->med student-->to a fellowship.

 

[gasapple]

On the University of Utah's secondary app they clearly ask whether your letter was from an MD or a DO. The info from this I'm taking is that it is clearly alright to use a DO recommendation at least for some schools, you might want to look into the MD schools your applying to.

Yea, the bottom line here is that one should follow instructions at all levels (primary and secondary).

Also, Gasapple has got to be the quickest person to go from pre-med-->med student-->to a fellowship.

You better believe it. I'm just a regular fellow and I'm gifted.

 

[RySerr21]

Use the letter from DO for all schools. A strong letter from any physician is great. Ask for a letter that highlights why you would be a good "medical student" and what your personal qualities are. You can field the questions about why oseopathic medicine on your own in the interview.

okay so this is what i think im going to do. I talked to one of the DOs i shadowed and he agreed to write me a LOR. I told him that i would be using it for all schools i am applying to and its goign to be the "why i would be a good med student" type.

I have another DO that i sought out to shadow strictly so that I could get some exposure to OMM. I told the doc this from the very beginning, and I only went in to shadow when he had one or more OMM appointments scheduled (he also does general family medicine). I'm thinking he can write me a letter more specific to DO, expressing my interest in learning more about osteopathy and the use of OMM.

What do you guys think of me sending both of these letters to the DO programs and just the general one to the MD programs???

 

[gasapple]

Sounds like a good approach. I say go for it.

 

[RySerr21]

Sounds like a good approach. I say go for it.

you are the King/Queen of LORs. i will direct any one who has a question about them to you. you've been a great help.

on another note, whenever i see your login name i read it as "ga-sapple." not sure why, haha.

 

[RySerr21]

when i was typing my last post i knew i had another question but i couldnt think of it......i just remembered.

does it really matter if you see your LORs? my school asked me to sign this thing saying whether or not i have seen any of the letters. is it frowned upon if you have seen any of them?

 

[gasapple]

when i was typing my last post i knew i had another question but i couldnt think of it......i just remembered.

does it really matter if you see your LORs? my school asked me to sign this thing saying whether or not i have seen any of the letters. is it frowned upon if you have seen any of them?

There's an ongoing debate regarding this subject. The thought is if you voluntarily waive your rights to view the letter, then naturally the letter would be less biased and more genuine. I'm skeptical and convinced it's so you don't have to see the generally poor and impersonal tone of the committee letter draft.

For the individual letters, I never asked to see any letters and the offer to view the draft was made by the authors. It's also good to see what your mentors think about you - it's a boost to the ego in an otherwise demoralizing process. Afterall, they could easily make an excuse and not write a letter if they thought they'd be unable to make enough of an impact with regard to your application - or simply didn't have the time.

Since you're using a committee letter by the sound of it you'll likely be required (pushed) to sign the form waiving your rights which probably is a good idea in order not to create any waves with the counselor/committee rep. However, I've known of more than two people who have gone the "committee route" only to find out later that the committee letter drafted at their respective institutions was less than stellar; their individual letters were much more personal and positive. I don't like committee letters for the simple reason that they have so many students to contend they won't be able to truly get personal with your letter and they likely will not let you view the draft.

I'd try to gauge how well those who compose the committee at your school know you and your accomplishments. For the majority, you'll just be one of the mass of applicants they're trying to quickly move through the system. Don't lose any sleep over it, though, because it will drive you mad. Personally, I preferred the one-on-one relationship with the profs and docs for my individual letters and trusted them much more since I was comfortable with the relationship. They actually took the time to get to know me rather than just a quick glance at my transcript and a mock interview, which is all that happens at most larger institutions and with committees. If you have option, I'd go with the individual letters solely and leave the committee out. Keep in mind, it's much easier if your out-of-school for a year or two because you are not required to use your school's committee. Works well for non-trads in most cases but you may be able to tweak it so you can bypass the committee too. Again, just my opinion.

 

[gasapple]

you are the King/Queen of LORs. i will direct any one who has a question about them to you. you've been a great help.

on another note, whenever i see your login name i read it as "ga-sapple." not sure why, haha.

Ha-ha. No problem. No charge for my .02 cents, either.

 

[RySerr21]

There's an ongoing debate regarding this subject. The thought is if you voluntarily waive your rights to view the letter, then naturally the letter would be less biased and more genuine. I'm skeptical and convinced it's so you don't have to see the generally poor and impersonal tone of the committee letter draft.

For the individual letters, I never asked to see any letters and the offer to view the draft was made by the authors. It's also good to see what your mentors think about you - it's a boost to the ego in an otherwise demoralizing process. Afterall, they could easily make an excuse and not write a letter if they thought they'd be unable to make enough of an impact with regard to your application - or simply didn't have the time.

Since you're using a committee letter by the sound of it you'll likely be required (pushed) to sign the form waiving your rights which probably is a good idea in order not to create any waves with the counselor/committee rep. However, I've known of more than two people who have gone the "committee route" only to find out later that the committee letter drafted at their respective institutions was less than stellar; their individual letters were much more personal and positive. I don't like committee letters for the simple reason that they have so many students to contend they won't be able to truly get personal with your letter and they likely will not let you view the draft.

I'd try to gauge how well those who compose the committee at your school know you and your accomplishments. For the majority, you'll just be one of the mass of applicants they're trying to quickly move through the system. Don't lose any sleep over it, though, because it will drive you mad. Personally, I preferred the one-on-one relationship with the profs and docs for my individual letters and trusted them much more since I was comfortable with the relationship. They actually took the time to get to know me rather than just a quick glance at my transcript and a mock interview, which is all that happens at most larger institutions and with committees. If you have option, I'd go with the individual letters solely and leave the committee out. Keep in mind, it's much easier if your out-of-school for a year or two because you are not required to use your school's committee. Works well for non-trads in most cases but you may be able to tweak it so you can bypass the committee too. Again, just my opinion.

hmmmm. i wasn't referring to a letter from a comittee. i got an email from a pre med advisor that said we should be turning in all of our letters, from physicians, profs, etc. to her office and that her office would then upload them on the virtualeval. she also attached a waver she said was to be used to let the recommenders and the medical schools know whether or not we have seen the letters.

she made it sound like the waiver was for all LORs i would be turning in, not just ones from a comittee like you spoke of.

seeing as i'm not dealing with a comitee, should it matter whether or not i see the letters? i emailed her this question and this was her response. i'm not sure if i agree with it or not, she makes it sound like if i look at the letters, they wont be personal. what do you think?

I think it does matter if you indicate you want to see your letters. Your recommenders will probably write a standard form letter without much depth. You want to ask people you know will write a strong letter of recommendation. In most situations whether it is a letter of recommendation to medical schools, job opportunities, positions on campus, the person for whom the letter is being written will waive the right to see the letter. I hope the information helps.

 

[gasapple]

hmmmm. i wasn't referring to a letter from a comittee. i got an email from a pre med advisor that said we should be turning in all of our letters, from physicians, profs, etc. to her office and that her office would then upload them on the virtualeval. she also attached a waver she said was to be used to let the recommenders and the medical schools know whether or not we have seen the letters.

she made it sound like the waiver was for all LORs i would be turning in, not just ones from a comittee like you spoke of.

seeing as i'm not dealing with a comitee, should it matter whether or not i see the letters?

Oh, why is the pre-med advisor so involved? That seems strange to me. Anyway, maybe the advisor is acting as a clearing house for the letters in an attempt to make things easier? Odd from what I know and am accustomed. I guess it's different in every location. I preferred dealing with my letter writers directly because often times they would consult me on the letter and they'd also let me read what they'd written. That was a nice aspect of doing it all myself.

I guess it doesn't matter really. If you're confident in your letter writers there shouldn't be a problem in signing the waiver. Of course, your curiosity will likely eat at you.

 

[Dakayus]

I had two MDs write them for me since I couldn't find any DOs. No one had a problem with it.

 

[Flushot]

Of the schools I talked to, only the TCOM reps said that they should be from DOs. Other DO schools just said a clinical letter. So, when I think about it, to the OP, it shouldn't matter. Just send to them both. Don't ask your letter writer to pander to DO schools. Just ask her/him to focus on being a physician.

 

[RockfordWF]

I had two MDs write them for me since I couldn't find any DOs. No one had a problem with it.

There are several schools that REQUIRE a DO letter. You are lucky you applied to none of them...

 

[ShyRem]

very few actually want a DO letter and nothing but a DO letter. Most will take an MD letter or some other letter with their approval as long as it is medically oriented.

 

[Ki45toryu]

I got only a letter from an MD...and didnt have a problem getting into any DO schools...they never mentioned it.

So the letter from the MD was either that good or a letter from an MD doesnt negate from your ability to get into a school.

The only school that specifically told me a DO letter was required was the new one that opened in Tennessee.

 

[RockfordWF]

Oklahoma State also requires it...

 

[RySerr21]

i didnt want to make a whole new thread....so.....

what do you guys know about the non science LOR coming from a non-academic source. Rugby has been a huge part of college career, and I've been with this coach for 3 years and he knows me very well and would write a fantastic LOR. He is also a professor at the school, but I've never taken a class from him although I might be in the Fall. When I asked him to write one, he said he would but that I should make sure that it doesn't matter that he is writing one from a non-academic perspective. He said that it may seem "odd." what do you guys think? Is he correct?

 

[spicedmanna]

i didnt want to make a whole new thread....so.....

what do you guys know about the non science LOR coming from a non-academic source. Rugby has been a huge part of college career, and I've been with this coach for 3 years and he knows me very well and would write a fantastic LOR. He is also a professor at the school, but I've never taken a class from him although I might be in the Fall. When I asked him to write one, he said he would but that I should make sure that it doesn't matter that he is writing one from a non-academic perspective. He said that it may seem "odd." what do you guys think? Is he correct?

I don't think it's odd, per se. I had one non-academic letter, as part of my overall credentials package, a previous supervisor from a job. As long as you send the required LORs to each school and sending a non-academic LOR isn't disallowed by the schools you are sending it to (each school should state their exact requirements), then there shouldn't be any issues. It should be of benefit, especially if it's a good LOR. I don't believe it was an issue for me.

When in doubt, check with the school(s).

 

[Flushot]

Right, it never hurts to call a school, although sometimes I wonder how much it actually helps in terms of getting your name on the admissions' minds.

I didn't realize just how vague that requirement is: non-academic letter? It sounds pretty free to any type to me.