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Is that only for the NY campus or both campuses?
Edit: I'm guessing NY campus judging by all these NE matches.
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DO Match List Thread 2020
- Thread starter Cath Up
- Start date
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- do match list
Edit: I'm guessing NY campus judging by all these NE matches.
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That's a meme. It's never going to be "ultra-competitive" to the point where it reaches surgery competitiveness, or even something like DR competitiveness. It's just going to be more competitive than what it was before, which was not that competitive...
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deleted1041468
Haha agree.
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Wearing yeezys in the OR was the best move I could have made for audition season lol
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Wow...what a match.
Dermatology at University of Vermont
IR at Emory and UIowa
Neurosurgery at NYMC/Westchester
Ortho at SUNY HSC Brooklyn
Urology and ENT at Rutgers
Vascular Surgery at Mayo (MN).
Psych is not competitive. Some of the weakest, most socially awkward people in my class matched psych this year.
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AnatomyGrey12
Also General Surgery at Montefiore, Ortho at Atlanta Medical Center (MD program)
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I was about to say, 2 MD ortho matches is impressive
Thank you for the information! Looks pretty good. Do you have any more updates since then?
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Because I literally had nothing to do today...
EDIT: Introduced the “Newport Factor!”
PURPOSE: To determine how difficult it is for a DO to match into a competitive urban area in psychiatry, as compared to other specialties.
HYPOTHESIS: the difficulty of matching psychiatry in competitive areas is comparable to that of specialties more traditionally thought to be competitive. Results are reported as # of DO applicants who matched that specialty in a competitive area, divided by total reported osteopathic matches in that specialty, (x100). This number is then compared to the % of residency programs of that specialty in major metro areas.
METHODS: All match lists in this first post of this thread were reviewed. “In a competitive city” was defined as: within 35 miles (as the crow flies) of the city center of a city listed in the top 10 metropolitan areas of the USA (approximating a 1 hr drive). This was measured with google maps scale tool. The cities are, as per wiki: NYC, LA, Chicago, Dallas/Ft Worth, Houston, DC, Miami, Philadelphia, Atlanta, Boston.
Specialties considered here were Psychiatry, Anesthesia, OB/GYN, Diagnostic Radiology, Orthopedic Surgery, and General Surgery. All residency programs found on match lists which could not be identified given poor naming (e.g. “university hospital,” “Mt Sinai” etc) were counted toward total matches but not toward “competitive metro area matches.” This was also done for military matches, including those that would have fallen within these metro areas. For total number of programs and their locations, AAMC lists of participating residency programs were reviewed.
Specialties are graded with a “Newport factor,” which is equivalent to (# of residency programs in a major metro area/# total number of programs) / ( # of DOs matching in a competitive urban area / total # of DOs in that specialty). It will make sense later.
A high Newport factor suggests significant regional bias. NF= 1 suggests no bias. NF<1 means that DOs are overrepresented in such areas.
LIMITATIONS: Only match lists listed on the first page were used, many of which were highly incomplete and unverified. 35 miles is a relatively arbitrary benchmark and distances were measured using google maps. This does not take into account how many program PGY1 spots are actually located within competitive cities- it was assumed they would average out. No applicant data was used. It was assumed that no net geographic preference was present (I.e the ortho cohort as a whole didn’t tend to prefer big cities, the psych cohort as a whole did not prefer rural areas, etc). No statistical analysis was completed.
RESULTS
Psychiatry:
-13 matches in top 10 metro areas.
-125 total matches reported
-10.4% of psych matches fell within in a top-10 metro area.
-236 Psychiatry programs in USA
-72 programs are located in the top 10 cities
-30.5% of psychiatry programs are in top 10 US cities.
Anesthesia
-32 matches in a top 10 metro area
-136 total gas matches reported
-23.5% of gas matches were in a top 10 metro area.
-140 gas programs in USA
-48 gas programs in top 10 metro areas
-34.3% of gas programs are in top 10 areas
Diagnostic Radiology
-16 matches in a top 10 metro area
-49 DR matches reported
-32.6% of DR matches were in a top 10 metro area.
-180 total DR programs in USA
-59 DR programs in top 10 metro areas
-32.8% of DR programs are in top 10 metro areas
General Surgery
-20 matches in a top 10 metro area
-87 GS matches reported
-22.9% of GS matches were in a top 10 metro area.
-282 total GS programs
-87 GS programs in top 10 metro areas
-30.8% of GS programs are in top 10 metro areas
OB/GYN
-18 matches in a top 10 metro area
-99 OB/GYN matches reported
-18.2% of OB/GYN matches were in a top 10 metro area.
-263 OB/GYN programs in USA
-82 programs are located in a top 10 metro area
-31.1% of OB/GYN programs are in a top 10 metro area
Orthopedic Surgery
-14 matches in a top 10 metro area
-56 ortho matches reported
-25% of Ortho matches were in a top 10 metro area
-176 ortho programs in USA
-46 ortho programs in a top 10 metro area
-26.1% of ortho programs in a top 10 metro area
EM
-56 matches in a top 10 metro area
-221 total EM matches reported
-25.3% of EM matches were in a top 10 metro area
-250 total EM programs
-65 EM programs in top 10 areas
-26% of total EM programs in top 10 areas.
DISCUSSION
Despite the seeming ease at which DOs are matching psychiatry, these findings suggest that, moreso than any other specialty considered here, DOs are widely shut out from competitive urban areas for residency. Despite 30.5% of psychiatry residency programs being located in a major metro area, only 10.4% of DOs who matched psychiatry matched in one of these areas, a ratio of approximately 3:1, or a Newport Factor of 2.93.
OB/GYN showed the next-largest “urban bias,” with 18.2% osteopathic OB/GYN matches occurring in a major metro area, despite 31.1% of OB/GYN programs being located in such an area. This gives OB/GYN a Newport Factor of 1.71.
Anesthesia (Newport Factor 1.45) and GS (1.34) were intermediate.
EM (NF= 1.03), DR (1.00), and Ortho (1.04) were practically 1:1, suggesting a less regional nature to any bias.
FINDINGS SHOWN IN PRETTY IMAGE!
EDIT: Introduced the “Newport Factor!”
PURPOSE: To determine how difficult it is for a DO to match into a competitive urban area in psychiatry, as compared to other specialties.
HYPOTHESIS: the difficulty of matching psychiatry in competitive areas is comparable to that of specialties more traditionally thought to be competitive. Results are reported as # of DO applicants who matched that specialty in a competitive area, divided by total reported osteopathic matches in that specialty, (x100). This number is then compared to the % of residency programs of that specialty in major metro areas.
METHODS: All match lists in this first post of this thread were reviewed. “In a competitive city” was defined as: within 35 miles (as the crow flies) of the city center of a city listed in the top 10 metropolitan areas of the USA (approximating a 1 hr drive). This was measured with google maps scale tool. The cities are, as per wiki: NYC, LA, Chicago, Dallas/Ft Worth, Houston, DC, Miami, Philadelphia, Atlanta, Boston.
Specialties considered here were Psychiatry, Anesthesia, OB/GYN, Diagnostic Radiology, Orthopedic Surgery, and General Surgery. All residency programs found on match lists which could not be identified given poor naming (e.g. “university hospital,” “Mt Sinai” etc) were counted toward total matches but not toward “competitive metro area matches.” This was also done for military matches, including those that would have fallen within these metro areas. For total number of programs and their locations, AAMC lists of participating residency programs were reviewed.
Specialties are graded with a “Newport factor,” which is equivalent to (# of residency programs in a major metro area/# total number of programs) / ( # of DOs matching in a competitive urban area / total # of DOs in that specialty). It will make sense later.
A high Newport factor suggests significant regional bias. NF= 1 suggests no bias. NF<1 means that DOs are overrepresented in such areas.
LIMITATIONS: Only match lists listed on the first page were used, many of which were highly incomplete and unverified. 35 miles is a relatively arbitrary benchmark and distances were measured using google maps. This does not take into account how many program PGY1 spots are actually located within competitive cities- it was assumed they would average out. No applicant data was used. It was assumed that no net geographic preference was present (I.e the ortho cohort as a whole didn’t tend to prefer big cities, the psych cohort as a whole did not prefer rural areas, etc). No statistical analysis was completed.
RESULTS
Psychiatry:
-13 matches in top 10 metro areas.
-125 total matches reported
-10.4% of psych matches fell within in a top-10 metro area.
-236 Psychiatry programs in USA
-72 programs are located in the top 10 cities
-30.5% of psychiatry programs are in top 10 US cities.
Anesthesia
-32 matches in a top 10 metro area
-136 total gas matches reported
-23.5% of gas matches were in a top 10 metro area.
-140 gas programs in USA
-48 gas programs in top 10 metro areas
-34.3% of gas programs are in top 10 areas
Diagnostic Radiology
-16 matches in a top 10 metro area
-49 DR matches reported
-32.6% of DR matches were in a top 10 metro area.
-180 total DR programs in USA
-59 DR programs in top 10 metro areas
-32.8% of DR programs are in top 10 metro areas
General Surgery
-20 matches in a top 10 metro area
-87 GS matches reported
-22.9% of GS matches were in a top 10 metro area.
-282 total GS programs
-87 GS programs in top 10 metro areas
-30.8% of GS programs are in top 10 metro areas
OB/GYN
-18 matches in a top 10 metro area
-99 OB/GYN matches reported
-18.2% of OB/GYN matches were in a top 10 metro area.
-263 OB/GYN programs in USA
-82 programs are located in a top 10 metro area
-31.1% of OB/GYN programs are in a top 10 metro area
Orthopedic Surgery
-14 matches in a top 10 metro area
-56 ortho matches reported
-25% of Ortho matches were in a top 10 metro area
-176 ortho programs in USA
-46 ortho programs in a top 10 metro area
-26.1% of ortho programs in a top 10 metro area
EM
-56 matches in a top 10 metro area
-221 total EM matches reported
-25.3% of EM matches were in a top 10 metro area
-250 total EM programs
-65 EM programs in top 10 areas
-26% of total EM programs in top 10 areas.
DISCUSSION
Despite the seeming ease at which DOs are matching psychiatry, these findings suggest that, moreso than any other specialty considered here, DOs are widely shut out from competitive urban areas for residency. Despite 30.5% of psychiatry residency programs being located in a major metro area, only 10.4% of DOs who matched psychiatry matched in one of these areas, a ratio of approximately 3:1, or a Newport Factor of 2.93.
OB/GYN showed the next-largest “urban bias,” with 18.2% osteopathic OB/GYN matches occurring in a major metro area, despite 31.1% of OB/GYN programs being located in such an area. This gives OB/GYN a Newport Factor of 1.71.
Anesthesia (Newport Factor 1.45) and GS (1.34) were intermediate.
EM (NF= 1.03), DR (1.00), and Ortho (1.04) were practically 1:1, suggesting a less regional nature to any bias.
FINDINGS SHOWN IN PRETTY IMAGE!
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LOL we dont know if thats the right way of going about this, because there is NO way to know if the people who didn't match at a so called "Top 10 metro area" actually wanted to be in a top 10 metro area, I mean for an example, someone might choose UT dell in austin over JPS in Dallas or a program in Jacksonville over one in miami, i dont think people make their decisions based on if its a "top 10 metro area", there are many other factors that go into this. Also overall there were way more than 125 DO psych matches as the NRMP 2020 match data shows 335 psych matches so overall its prbly on par with the other specialties.
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That’s quite a statement. Seems like my sample size is over 1/3rd of the total. POP QUIZ: what type of analysis would you use to determine if my findings were statistically significant, or due to sampling error, as you seem to suggest? T-test, Chi square, or ANOVA? Seriously, I don’t know.
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Chi square
Is UChicago IM match at Nortshore?
Edit: I think its Northshore because the UC IM twitter page doesn't list a DO on their incoming class of residents
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IR at Michigan
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Yep double checked too no DO on their incoming class.
This happens every year. No one's fault because technically Northshore is a part of the UChi health system.
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DO selection bias. Most of my class doesnt care where they match as long as its the specialty they want. also, most my class isnt from any of those top 10 cities. Most people just want to practice where they came from.
I usually hear "I just want to match in a city". and when you start factoring in cities that arent top 10 but still sizeable metro places to live (Orlando, Nashville, St Louis, Vegas etc etc) you will find many DOs end up in Cities.
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I don’t think we have evidence or data to suggest that DOs as a whole tend toward a true preference toward small cities or rural areas. That’s seems unlikely, given that statistically, the vast majority of med students do come from a top 10 metro area.
There was a moderate regional bias to the match lists, though, in that most matches tended to occur within the broad geographical region that the school was located. Although this could absolutely be a source of confounding, it does not explain the relative lack of geographic bias in other specialties. In fact (and this is just speculation) 2 of these specialties with NF=1 - ortho and EM - are specialties where audition rotations are the norm, which could suggest a true geographic preference given that students choose where to audition. Regardless, I do think the numbers here are strong enough to have identified some type of true pattern.
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DO schools themselves are for the most part in smaller areas, which attract people from said areas, and people want to stay there. At least in the Midwest.
I also don’t understand the “most med students come from top 10 urban areas”. Literally most everyone is from those areas, hence why they’re top 10 in population. I don’t see the contribution of that point to the data.
Additionally, the vast majority of residency programs are in larger areas, so I don’t believe that residency location is a viable parameter to work off of.
People have been trying to analyze rank lists and match lists forever. There just isn’t a viable trend you can gather from them without knowing every facet of each applicant to understand why they applied. The only thing generalizable is overall competitiveness of each specialty, and that’s simply an “applicants/spots” calculation
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We do have data tho.
- Over half of all DO matriculants were from a places with a population of less than 49,999 (doesnt even meet AACOMs definition for a "city").
- 70% of all DO students are from places with less than 99,999 people.
- Only 10% are from Urban (>1million) and 19% from "large cities" (>100,00).
And there is definetly data showing med students typically prefer to train/practice in areas where they came from. So this is all consistent. Look at the top 20 feeder schools for DO matriculants per AACOM. Almost none of them are in top 10 metro cities (all stillin sizeable metro areas tho)
Source: https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-...profile-summary-report.pdf?sfvrsn=28753a97_14
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That’s because they ask about your hometown, not your metro area. My hometown was a non-urban “city” of 25,000 people, but it was within a 10 minute drive from the city center of a top-5 metropolis. Virtually everyone from a metro area will be putting in the data for their mailing address, not their adjacent city. If I live in Mineola, NY, I put in the data for Mineola. I don’t say I live in a city of 8 million, even if I’m only 15 miles away.
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See my above point. Of course most med students come from these areas, because the majority of the population comes from these areas...especially with that definition you just used
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Your point that the vast majority of residency programs are located in cities? Yes, that’s true, which is why I reported how many programs are actually located in big cities. Which is exactly what makes it notable that DOs are so underrepresented in those geographical areas for certain residency specialties... but not others.
The argument that DOs who want psych overwhelmingly prefer small cities, while the DOs who want DR prefer big cities, seems specious.
D
deleted407021
Lol y'all
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I thought this was a joke and then I read it. I have an idea how long this took, I'm impressed. This post should end the argument on psych only being 'slightly more competitive' than it was. Psych is a competitive specialty, much more than it used to be, especially in University programs.
.
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AnatomyGrey12
No it’s not.
This is like saying DO schools are more competitive than MD schools because they have a lower acceptance percentage.
It's a legit Emory IM match according to the Emory webpage
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I’ll respond for Born....
Competitive comparison:
MD = Community Radiology
DO = Uni psych
Location comparison:
North Dakota = undesirable
California = desirable
A California DO is more competitive than a North Dakota MD...
is similar to saying
California psych is more competitive than a North Dakota radiology...
You’re ignoring almost the entire argument of location, which is what the argument is based in.
Seems to be the only DO out of 44 in the categorical track among the ranks of Yale, Keck, Penn State, Northwestern
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AnatomyGrey12
I can't really take an argument seriously when it's saying Psych in a competitive location is harder to match than DR or Ortho.
Psych is not competitive. Psych is selective. There is a difference.
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That is not the argument, and the post explicitly states so
. I am NOT saying that urban psych is more competitive than urban ortho. my data does not support that conclusion and I will not make that argument.the argument is that the competitiveness of psych is more stratified by location, than all the other fields mentioned.
the comparison between specialties was not “which one is more competitive?”
the comparison was “which specialty has the steepest competitiveness vs. location slope?” Which is why I made the infographic
the result is basically that matching top 10 metro psych is a totally different ballgame than just “matching psych.” It’s typically thought that DOs have a hard time matching competitive metro areas in every field, but I aimed to show that this statement was far more true in psych.
Because we have most all the lists. This is the natural progression of the life cycle of this thread. A few stragglers keep up a random conversation for a couple pages and then it goes gently into that good night.
I mean maybe people have different definitions of competitive than we do.
I define a competitive specialty to be one where you need a handful of certain factors in order to have a high probability to match. Those factors being good board scores, research, good letters, auditions, strong ECs and a great interview. For MDs, school prestige matters. For some specialties, regional preference matters, for others auditions don't make much difference
For specialties like ortho, you need almost all of the above factors but missing out on one won't sink you
For mid-tier specialties like rads or ob, you need 2-4 depending on where you're aiming
Several people in my class that matched psych had 1 or 0 of those factors. Sure if you want to go to a major metro area maybe you need 2-4 of those things, but that doesn't make the entire specialty competitive
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IR docs I worked with were all very bro but could be isolated case of the bros.
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AnatomyGrey12
Cardiology, IR, DR can get bro-ey
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I’m assuming psych, OB, and peds are the least broey. Not much experience, just guessing.
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I'm my experience, correct.
I don’t think it is the best idea to make conclusions from such incomplete datasets as those listed in this match thread. Lots of these match lists have programs missing or do not account for multiple students matching to the same residency. For example, if you were to look at the PCOM match list posted in this thread it would show that 3/8 psych matches were in top 10 metros. However, when you account for multiple students marching into the same residency this would change to 8/13 psych matches in top 10 metros. I am not sure if this same pattern is replicated elsewhere, but it would potentially significantly change your results.
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deleted407021
One guy I interviewed with was super broey, but he was applying peds as a backup. Stuck out like a sore thumb.
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Interesting backup choice.
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Didn't you see the survey?
If it is upsetting you then why don’t you lay on my couch and we can talk about it.
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This is amazing accomplishment. This DO grad is making history and making matching into big names possible for many coming after him/herSeems to be the only DO out of 44 in the categorical track among the ranks of Yale, Keck, Penn State, Northwestern
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deleted831695
It is my hope after seeing these match lists that, just like how DOs navigated the merger, the Class of 2023 onward can produce similar quality matches post-Step 1 becoming P/F.
