MD Do MD schools care about students?

[OMMKing]

Hello.

I was dismissed from a DO program over failure of one class (4 credits out of 30) in my first semester of attendance. But was overall a decent student (B+ average). I had a personal situation, but school objected to an LOA. Contrary to popular opinion here on SDN, I reapplied, and received a few interviews at domestic schools (not Caribbean).

The environment at that school was beyond toxic. My question is - how do you feel your MD school treats you? If faculty, do you tend to support students or punish them? Any MD schools that are particularly supportive?

Thanks.

Edit: Reason for attending a DO program was location. Stats are competitive for MD.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[operaman]

Mine was extremely supportive but definitely not overly coddling. I’m surprised about the LOA denial - that’s pretty unusual unless someone is trying to do it way last minute after dismissal is already a foregone conclusion.

The truth is that students tend to be a nameless faceless mass early in preclinical years unless you’re at the very top or very bottom of the bell curve. Even if my preclinical faculty were super toxic, I had so few interactions with them that I may not have even noticed.

My school was supportive in that they gave me good lecturers, good study materials, provided tutoring free of charge for everyone who wanted it, gave me a nice library where I could study, had plenty of other support resources available, and had a deans office that’s as very accessible. I showed up, studied hard, passed my exams and moved on.

I don’t think they would have bent the rules for me though. They were supportive to a point but they definitely had a standard to uphold. I has friends go through some terrible life experiences and the school was supportive but they didn’t get any freebies or redos. I guess a lot depends on what your definitely of supportive is and what specifically you’re looking for that you didn’t have the last time.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

I feel like stories of dismissals on here tend to disproportionately involve DO schools but it’s impossible to determine whether this is due to the school admins or initially lower scores/gpa

I’m pretty sure at my school, one has to fail like 3 blocks (assuming remediations are passed) to get kicked out.

 

[Billiam95]

Hard to say. School admin seems to fall into a couple categories - those that care, those that are oblivious, and those that are lazy; it can be hard to tell who falls in what category some times. I frequently think that most decisions made by admin negatively affect me, but that might be more due to ignorance than malice on their part (disclaimer - not party to behind the scenes discussions and don't always have a full view of what's going on).
On the whole though, I think admin wants people who matriculate to graduate. For students that fail a class or exam along the line, there are avenues laid out in the student hand book for remediation that are followed.
I now reflexively doubt anything told to me by admin until proven otherwise, and I think this generally serves me well - take that how you will.

 

[Lifeblood_20]

I think it's important to define what support means to you.

I am just a preclinical student but I feel that my school admin is pretty supportive. We are given a couple of free passes to miss mandatory sessions each year for personal reasons. Students are able to take LOAs without their reasons being scrutinized overly harshly (if it's for health reasons, we do need to provide medical documentation of sorts). I am still M2 but I know a good number of people in my class who are taking time off this year after M1 for whatever reason. Admin is quick and responsive to student inquiries about scheduling, curriculum issues, student feedback, etc. Personally, I had struggled with mental health last year, and when I reached out, they connected me to really helpful counseling. I failed one exam during M1 year and they offered ample time before the retake to make sure I pass on remediation. If we have any personal issues going on before exams or due dates, we can ask to postpone taking the exam/turning something in for a few days (within reason). I have felt these things have helped take off a good amount of stress.

 

[Putkernerinthehall]

Hello.

I was dismissed from a DO program over failure of one class (4 credits out of 30) in my first semester of attendance. But was overall a decent student (B+ average). I had a personal situation, but school objected to an LOA. Contrary to popular opinion here on SDN, I reapplied, and received a few interviews at domestic schools (not Caribbean).

The environment at that school was beyond toxic. My question is - how do you feel your MD school treats you? If faculty, do you tend to support students or punish them? Any MD schools that are particularly supportive?

Thanks.

Edit: Reason for attending a DO program was location. Stats are competitive for MD.

I suspect there is probably some correlation between class size and "supportiveness" (however that is defined). Smaller class size allows for more personal attention and support.

 

[OMMKing]

Thank you all for taking the time to respond. People tend to get bashed here so I avoided too much info. But since it has been brought up, I will try to clarify what I mean by "supportiveness". Our DO admin would threaten to dismiss students over professionalism. Multiple students were disciplined or suspended for very minor "infractions" (e.g., traffic ticket, missed vaccination, TikTok video of them dancing). Their policy also discourages LOA and says that you are not allowed to repeat the year for academic reasons (if you fail one class that's grounds for dismissal). They also have mandatory lectures 8 to 5 and 3x exams a week with a graded curriculum. Students who are below a 3.1 GPA are not allowed to participate in professional organizations, further alienating those students from potential support systems. The school is also allowed to dismiss students who do not pass their internal board exam on the second attempt. There was an old post on Reddit about someone dismissed from said school over a suicide attempt and a local (claimed) therapist replied that they have clients from that school with horrific stories. Obviously, DO students are weaker academically as vox said. But still, previous graduating class lost more than 20 students.

I wanted to see if things are better on the MD side, as I'm reapplying, but I guess this is school dependent. I spoke to a few faculty, admin, and students at the MD school I work at and the atmosphere here is so much more positive.

Edit: Also wanted to mention, said DO program had lectures about MD education being inferior by an MD PhD lecturer. It was cringe worthy.

 

[MDMechEngr]

Thank you all for taking the time to respond. People tend to get bashed here so I avoided too much info. But since it has been brought up, I will try to clarify what I mean by "supportiveness". Our DO admin would threaten to dismiss students over professionalism. Multiple students were disciplined or suspended for very minor "infractions" (e.g., traffic ticket, missed vaccination, TikTok video of them dancing). Their policy also discourages LOA and says that you are not allowed to repeat the year for academic reasons (if you fail one class that's grounds for dismissal). They also have mandatory lectures 8 to 5 and 3x exams a week with a graded curriculum. Students who are below a 3.1 GPA are not allowed to participate in professional organizations, further alienating those students from potential support systems. The school is also allowed to dismiss students who do not pass their internal board exam on the second attempt. There was an old post on Reddit about someone dismissed from said school over a suicide attempt and a local (claimed) therapist replied that they have clients from that school with horrific stories. Obviously, DO students are weaker academically as vox said. But still, previous graduating class lost more than 20 students.

I wanted to see if things are better on the MD side, as I'm reapplying, but I guess this is school dependent. I spoke to a few faculty, admin, and students at the MD school I work at and the atmosphere here is so much more positive.

Edit: Also wanted to mention, said DO program had lectures about MD education being inferior by an MD PhD lecturer. It was cringe worthy.

Change your name to OMMkingNoMore

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I think you'll find that the answers to these questions are very school specific. Attendance policies vary widely -- some have mandatory attendance, others are completely optional. Overall (from posts here on SDN) I get the sense that DO schools tend to have more strict rules like this, but I/m sure it varies in the MD world also. So probably best to focus on those schools that are interviewing you.

On that note, please do keep us updated. Part of the reason you see threads that say that once you're kicked out of medical school there's no way back is because there are limited threads of such successes.

 

[OMMKing]

I think you'll find that the answers to these questions are very school specific. Attendance policies vary widely -- some have mandatory attendance, others are completely optional. Overall (from posts here on SDN) I get the sense that DO schools tend to have more strict rules like this, but I/m sure it varies in the MD world also. So probably best to focus on those schools that are interviewing you.

On that note, please do keep us updated. Part of the reason you see threads that say that once you're kicked out of medical school there's no way back is because there are limited threads of such successes.

Thank you for the advice, will be sure to update. Something that might be of interest to others in this situation, AACOMAS applicant and matriculant profile shows that out of 189 students who were withdrawn/dismissed from MD or DO program, 45 re-matriculated into a DO program. That's more than 20% acceptance. That means success is much more common than what is advertised here.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

What hell hole did you attend that failed you out after one class and doesn't have a remediation policy or let you take LOA?

Even Carib schools are more forgiving.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Did you reapply to your previous DO school? I have taught at MD Universities and DO schools. As a student, you are their product and they have a vested interest in your success. Both have been rather supportive imo. My DO school was very strict, but very supportive. You would have been given the opportunity to remediate a single course failure. A LOA should be defined in the student handbook, but it makes little sense to me to dismiss a 1st yr after a single course failure. I'm sorry you are going through this. Good luck and best wishes!

 

[OMMKing]

What hell hole did you attend that failed you out after one class and doesn't have a remediation policy or let you take LOA?

Even Carib schools are more forgiving.

PM'd you.

Did you reapply to your previous DO school? I have taught at MD Universities and DO schools. As a student, you are their product and they have a vested interest in your success. Both have been rather supportive imo. My DO school was very strict, but very supportive. You would have been given the opportunity to remediate a single course failure. A LOA should be defined in the student handbook, but it makes little sense to me to dismiss a 1st yr after a single course failure. I'm sorry you are going through this. Good luck and best wishes!

Thank you for sharing. I do not plan to reapply to my former school. Surely did not feel they were interested in my success.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Did you reapply to your previous DO school? I have taught at MD Universities and DO schools. As a student, you are their product and they have a vested interest in your success. Both have been rather supportive imo. My DO school was very strict, but very supportive. You would have been given the opportunity to remediate a single course failure. A LOA should be defined in the student handbook, but it makes little sense to me to dismiss a 1st yr after a single course failure. I'm sorry you are going through this. Good luck and best wishes!

I've honestly never heard of a program being this strict. Life happens and people sometimes need to meet with faculty who can teach them how to study and or approach material more comprehensively. A 1 and your out policy is too unforgiving.

 

[throwaway123342]

Schools definitely do not care about you one iota. They will throw you to the curb without concern. Their only concern whatsoever is what their lawyers have to say.

If UPitt decided to toss a quarter of their class out this year, they would fill their next class completely without any consequences whatsoever.

 

[Billiam95]

If UPitt decided to toss a quarter of their class out this year, they would fill their next class completely without any consequences whatsoever.

"Wow, sucks for that 25%!" - everyone applying to UPitt in 2022

 

[Putkernerinthehall]

Schools definitely do not care about you one iota. They will throw you to the curb without concern. Their only concern whatsoever is what their lawyers have to say.

If UPitt decided to toss a quarter of their class out this year, they would fill their next class completely without any consequences whatsoever.

I disagree. I believe that the vast majority of medical schools are interested in their students succeeding and going on to do great things. The poll for this thread reflects that almost 85% of those who responded think their school does at least an average job with "supportiveness." I know a bunch of folks at different schools and the consensus is similar to the poll above.

Where does your view come from and why the reference to Pitt ?

 

[MateoGM416]

I would also like to know what school this is if you don't mind.

 

[OMMKing]

As 60% of MD students in this poll find their school supportive or very supportive, what are some good student centered programs to consider?

 

[operaman]

Thank you all for taking the time to respond. People tend to get bashed here so I avoided too much info. But since it has been brought up, I will try to clarify what I mean by "supportiveness". Our DO admin would threaten to dismiss students over professionalism. Multiple students were disciplined or suspended for very minor "infractions" (e.g., traffic ticket, missed vaccination, TikTok video of them dancing). Their policy also discourages LOA and says that you are not allowed to repeat the year for academic reasons (if you fail one class that's grounds for dismissal). They also have mandatory lectures 8 to 5 and 3x exams a week with a graded curriculum. Students who are below a 3.1 GPA are not allowed to participate in professional organizations, further alienating those students from potential support systems. The school is also allowed to dismiss students who do not pass their internal board exam on the second attempt. There was an old post on Reddit about someone dismissed from said school over a suicide attempt and a local (claimed) therapist replied that they have clients from that school with horrific stories. Obviously, DO students are weaker academically as vox said. But still, previous graduating class lost more than 20 students.

I wanted to see if things are better on the MD side, as I'm reapplying, but I guess this is school dependent. I spoke to a few faculty, admin, and students at the MD school I work at and the atmosphere here is so much more positive.

Edit: Also wanted to mention, said DO program had lectures about MD education being inferior by an MD PhD lecturer. It was cringe worthy.

I think the policies you mention are similar at MD schools, at least at mine.

Traffic ticket is usually no big deal, but there’s a difference between going 9 over the limit versus 25 over the limit with other violations tossed in too. Missed vaccination would get you in hot water most places - those tend to be hard and fast policies and you either get the shot or file for an exemption. Ignoring it altogether would get you in trouble anywhere. The dance video depends on how inappropriate it was and just how identifiable the student is, but I can imagine things that would cross a line and where a school would find it in violation of their social media policy.

The LOA is a bit trickier. My school would also not routinely grant an LOA for purely academic reasons. Rather, people would get them for medical reasons or family reasons. I’ve seen them granted for new ADHD dx to get on meds and for parents with terminal illnesses - there were obviously academic struggles involved but the underlying reason justified the LOA. I guess the key question for any LOA is this: what’s going to be different after you get back? If it’s just academic struggle, then what’s to say you won’t still struggle the second time around? Or with all the other high stakes exams? LOAs also need to be requested WAY before the failures start happening.

I think the one failure and out thing is more extreme. Usually there’s a remediation option and worst case scenario you just repeat the year. That said, on the repeat if you still only fail one class you’d probably get dismissed anywhere.

Your school sounds especially rigid, but not terribly far off from any other school. The key to success wherever you land will be your own work and ensuring that you don’t get anywhere near failure the second time around.

 

[OMMKing]

I think the policies you mention are similar at MD schools, at least at mine.

Traffic ticket is usually no big deal, but there’s a difference between going 9 over the limit versus 25 over the limit with other violations tossed in too. Missed vaccination would get you in hot water most places - those tend to be hard and fast policies and you either get the shot or file for an exemption. Ignoring it altogether would get you in trouble anywhere. The dance video depends on how inappropriate it was and just how identifiable the student is, but I can imagine things that would cross a line and where a school would find it in violation of their social media policy.

The LOA is a bit trickier. My school would also not routinely grant an LOA for purely academic reasons. Rather, people would get them for medical reasons or family reasons. I’ve seen them granted for new ADHD dx to get on meds and for parents with terminal illnesses - there were obviously academic struggles involved but the underlying reason justified the LOA. I guess the key question for any LOA is this: what’s going to be different after you get back? If it’s just academic struggle, then what’s to say you won’t still struggle the second time around? Or with all the other high stakes exams? LOAs also need to be requested WAY before the failures start happening.

I think the one failure and out thing is more extreme. Usually there’s a remediation option and worst case scenario you just repeat the year. That said, on the repeat if you still only fail one class you’d probably get dismissed anywhere.

Your school sounds especially rigid, but not terribly far off from any other school. The key to success wherever you land will be your own work and ensuring that you don’t get anywhere near failure the second time around.

Thank you for the feedback. What other schools dismiss 1st semester medical students? I would like to know to avoid them. This was not a repeat year, our school does not allow repeating.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Thank you for the feedback. What other schools dismiss 1st semester medical students? I would like to know to avoid them. This was not a repeat year, our school does not allow repeating.

this is a somewhat defeatist attitude imo. You should not go into medical school again expecting to fail a class. It can become a self fulfilling prophecy

 

[OMMKing]

this is a somewhat defeatist attitude imo. You should not go into medical school again expecting to fail a class. It can become a self fulfilling prophecy

I never said that. It is the general atmosphere at such schools that I wish to avoid. Also, life happens. What if you fail a class at the end of second year? Be dismissed with hundreds of thousands in student loans you can't repay? I learned the hard way to do better research on the school next time and do not wish this upon anyone.

 

[operaman]

I never said that. It is the general atmosphere at such schools that I wish to avoid. Also, life happens. What if you fail a class at the end of second year? Be dismissed with hundreds of thousands in student loans you can't repay? I learned the hard way to do better research on the school next time and do not wish this upon anyone.

You state very well the reason schools try to dismiss students early - nobody wants to see someone get halfway through school and not finish. The worst I ever saw was a classmate of mine who was given 4 years to do M1 and M2 and never did pass. I’m not sure if it was the class exams or step 1 that did it, but the result was the same. Much better to identify students early.

Definitely look for schools with more favorable remediation policies. I’m not sure why your school was so strict - given the internal board exam thing my guess is they’re a newer school and care deeply about their boards pass rates and residency match rate. I know my school offered remediation and repeat years in some cases; it’s been awhile but I think they did have some cutoffs where remediation or repeating was not an option. This info should be easy to find on any school’s website.

 

[Med Ed]

Schools definitely do not care about you one iota. They will throw you to the curb without concern. Their only concern whatsoever is what their lawyers have to say.

If UPitt decided to toss a quarter of their class out this year, they would fill their next class completely without any consequences whatsoever.

PSA: Student attrition, both overall and specifically related to academic difficulty, gets reported to the LCME on a regular basis (see Standard 11).

Also, every time there is a LCME site visit, the student body constructs the Independent Student Analysis (ISA), which aggregates anonymous student feedback on all aspects of the school. There are 72 required survey questions, and students can add more at their discretion. In addition to the student-only meeting with site visitors, this information is given a lot of credence by the LCME.

If a survey visit goes bad it's common for heads to roll, meaning some senior admins will pack up their offices. Word will also get out, which may negatively impact their job prospects.

Schools also have to report their USMLE pass rates and mean Step 2 scores (see Standard 8.4). Hopefully the dilemma is now apparent: kick out everyone who is struggling and your pass rates will be stellar but your attrition will suffer = red flag. Keep everyone enrolled no matter what and your attrition will be stellar but your pass rates will suffer = red flag. Hence, every school does a balancing act to keep these two variables in reasonable ranges.

I know students don't see or appreciate this stuff on a routine basis, but there is a substantial system of accountability for US MD schools. It's not perfect, but it does generally force us to behave in a reasonable manner. It also forces us to dot our i's and cross our t's on a lot of administrative matters, which is perhaps one of the reasons why bringing legal action over things like dismissals typically doesn't work out.

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

As 60% of MD students in this poll find their school supportive or very supportive, what are some good student centered programs to consider?

As someone that attended DO school for all of 2 days and finished a week of classes at MD, I've def noticed a difference. P/F grading, more support networks, no time spent on OMM (not that DO schools can avoid it), not having to fight for rotation placements. Just generally very assuring process. Interestingly, LECOM of all places gave me the worst vibes during my interview season.

 

[Moosers]

This sounds like an identical story to someone who I was close to. Dismissed from their DO program after first semester due to failing a class. Received the call on Christmas Eve, of all times. Absolutely horrendous experience and zero student support. They've kept in touch with a few classmates who are now M3s and many of them share the sentiment that they wish they'd have not gotten in at all than have continued their educations there.

 

[PathNeuroIMorFM]

It's hard to say what's "Average" when I can only speak to my own experience.

I took an LOA and the school supported me to take mine and I'm free to rejoin class next year, no strings attached. Financially and otherwise, however, I'm completely on my own to figure out what to do and how to manage finances (including being kicked off student health insurance). Thankfully, I'm very lucky to have savings and a supportive, non-med partner.

Big name schools offer more opportunities for things like paid research, joint-degrees, and other things to boost students. One HUGE bonus to some of these schools is they'll also defer your loans while taking the LOA.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

It's hard to say what's "Average" when I can only speak to my own experience.

I took an LOA and the school supported me to take mine and I'm, free to rejoin class next year, no strings attached. Financially and otherwise, however, I'm completely on my own to figure out what to do and how to manage finances. Thankfully, I'm very lucky in both regards.

Big name schools offer more opportunities for things like paid research, joint-degrees, and other things to boost students. One HUGE bonus to some of these schools is they'll also defer your loans while taking the LOA.

This point is so important. Prior to starting school, I thought that the boost associated with going to a top school was namely due to name recognition. However, after starting at a low tier school, I realize it’s actually more about the available resources. At some tier schools, it’s very hard to meet the right people and find very productive faculty. Generally, the faculty who are will already be working with 10 other students. It was much easier to get research at my undergrad institution than it is at my current school for example

 

[OMMKing]

This sounds like an identical story to someone who I was close to. Dismissed from their DO program after first semester due to failing a class. Received the call on Christmas Eve, of all times. Absolutely horrendous experience and zero student support. They've kept in touch with a few classmates who are now M3s and many of them share the sentiment that they wish they'd have not gotten in at all than have continued their educations there.

Sounds suspiciously similar... Can you PM me the school?

 

[PathNeuroIMorFM]

This point is so important. Prior to starting school, I thought that the boost associated with going to a top school was namely due to name recognition. However, after starting at a low tier school, I realize it’s actually more about the available resources. At some tier schools, it’s very hard to meet the right people and find very productive faculty. Generally, the faculty who are will already be working with 10 other students. It was much easier to get research at my undergrad institution than it is at my current school for example

Stanford is a shining example of this. A huge fraction of students are encouraged to get joint degrees, LOA students keep their student status (and thus, loans may be deferred, school services still can be used, etc), and there are TONS of paid research ops.

My school doesn't let LOA students use their mental health services, which really grinds my gears, since that's like 50% of LOAs right now.

I might be spending a portion of my LOA trying to get my school to emulate how they do things. Hopefully to make things easier for future students and now with Step 1 going P/F, they may become more common for those shooting for plastics, derm, academic powerhouses, etc. Wish me luck lol

 

[throwaway123342]

PSA: Student attrition, both overall and specifically related to academic difficulty, gets reported to the LCME on a regular basis (see Standard 11).

Also, every time there is a LCME site visit, the student body constructs the Independent Student Analysis (ISA), which aggregates anonymous student feedback on all aspects of the school. There are 72 required survey questions, and students can add more at their discretion. In addition to the student-only meeting with site visitors, this information is given a lot of credence by the LCME.

If a survey visit goes bad it's common for heads to roll, meaning some senior admins will pack up their offices. Word will also get out, which may negatively impact their job prospects.

Schools also have to report their USMLE pass rates and mean Step 2 scores (see Standard 8.4). Hopefully the dilemma is now apparent: kick out everyone who is struggling and your pass rates will be stellar but your attrition will suffer = red flag. Keep everyone enrolled no matter what and your attrition will be stellar but your pass rates will suffer = red flag. Hence, every school does a balancing act to keep these two variables in reasonable ranges.

I know students don't see or appreciate this stuff on a routine basis, but there is a substantial system of accountability for US MD schools. It's not perfect, but it does generally force us to behave in a reasonable manner. It also forces us to dot our i's and cross our t's on a lot of administrative matters, which is perhaps one of the reasons why bringing legal action over things like dismissals typically doesn't work out.

So I was at a program that dealt with a lot of this since it's was newer. A vast majority of our students hated administration. However, when the LCME came to do visits we agreed to not complain about any of the "real" problems with our school out of fear it would hurt our schools accreditation process.

Furthermore, we learned that our survey responses were sent to a "representative" from our class who would compile a report that was sent to the LCME. Of course that representative who was selected was one of the few pro-admin students who was liked by the dean. Now, whether the LCME actually received each of our individual responses I am not sure, but in the end I ended up submitting a blank form so I could just keep my head down.

Going through these site visits gave me the opposite impression of yours. The LCME sees a heavily filtered image of the student body and their experiences. There were so many key issues at our program that I am convinced the LCME never saw or addressed. Much of that is because schools have tons of tools at their disposal to make things look neat and tidy.

I am sure there are good programs out there. In fact, the institution I am out now is pretty remarkable from the top down. But the accreditation process is very very far from error free.

 

[Billiam95]

As someone that attended DO school for all of 2 days and finished a week of classes at MD, I've def noticed a difference. P/F grading, more support networks, no time spent on OMM (not that DO schools can avoid it), not having to fight for rotation placements. Just generally very assuring process. Interestingly, LECOM of all places gave me the worst vibes during my interview season.

Attended DO school for 2 days before getting in off the waitlist for MD school?

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

Attended DO school for 2 days before getting in off the waitlist for MD school?

yep!

 

[Neopolymath]

Your former school obviously isn't that evil. It dismissed you to help you fix your mistake in not attending an MD school and avoiding most of the annoyances you were about to endure.

I say this partially seriously and partially tongue in cheek as someone who attended DO school solely due to location/family.

 

[Med Ed]

So I was at a program that dealt with a lot of this since it's was newer. A vast majority of our students hated administration. However, when the LCME came to do visits we agreed to not complain about any of the "real" problems with our school out of fear it would hurt our schools accreditation process.

Indeed, this is the inescapable problem of all inspections. But good site visitors know how to dig and triangulate. They never catch everything (there isn't enough time), but if a school has serious, systemic problems it's very hard to keep them all completely papered over.

Furthermore, we learned that our survey responses were sent to a "representative" from our class who would compile a report that was sent to the LCME. Of course that representative who was selected was one of the few pro-admin students who was liked by the dean. Now, whether the LCME actually received each of our individual responses I am not sure, but in the end I ended up submitting a blank form so I could just keep my head down.

Here is what the LCME says about the ISA:

"Although medical school officials can provide logistical support and technical advice to help the student committee conduct the survey and analyses, medical school officials must not participate in student survey development, survey data analysis, or ISA report preparation."

In other words, if the ISA process at your school was lousy then that's on you and your classmates. And if the school meddled in the process to its own benefit then that's a nuclear-grade no-no that should be brought to the LCME's attention.

During my last site visit we submitted the raw, unfiltered ISA data in addition to the summary report. So they had access to everything.

I am sure there are good programs out there. In fact, the institution I am out now is pretty remarkable from the top down. But the accreditation process is very very far from error free.

I don't think any reasonable person could claim the accreditation process is "error free."

 

[OMMKing]

Your former school obviously isn't that evil. It dismissed you to help you fix your mistake in not attending an MD school and avoiding most of the annoyances you were about to endure.

I say this partially seriously and partially tongue in cheek as someone who attended DO school solely due to location/family.

MD is the way go. Wish I could tell my younger self to wait it out. Spending five hours a week on OMT was absolute hell. Took away from studying real medicine.

 

[Goro]

MD is the way go. Wish I could tell my younger self to wait it out. Spending five hours a week on OMT was absolute hell. Took away from studying real medicine.

I'm curious, king, you've been through an ordeal. It is obviously traumatized you and left scars. How are you going to handle the stress of medical school once you remitriculate?

 

[helpmeouthere]

As a current DO applicant, do you mind sharing what school this is? I am scared now

 

[Wokemon]

As a current DO applicant, do you mind sharing what school this is? I am scared now

I second this. As a current applicant, I'm terrified. Please let us know what school treats its students so poorly.

 

[OMMKing]

I'm curious, king, you've been through an ordeal. It is obviously traumatized you and left scars. How are you going to handle the stress of medical school once you remitriculate?

I will be criticized for this, but the major stress for me was admin and OMT. This was a rural program so I felt like an outsider and haven't made any friends in school. The MD school I work at is completely different. You have thousands of faculty mentors to choose from, from any department you want. I work directly with medical students and they have 24/7 access to free counseling, a P/F curriculum, multiple opportunities to remediate, and etc. Compare that to a school that won't allow you to participate in extracurriculars if your GPA < 3.1 (with a solid B being a 3.0). This is not a healthy environment. Also a school that changes their curriculum to mandatory lectures one week before classes start, after the new students already committed to the school, and changes their SMP policy to guaranteed interview instead of guaranteed acceptance halfway through the program, trust me, is not a place you want to be in. At least COCA placed them on accreditation with heightened monitoring.

 

[Goro]

I will be criticized for this, but the major stress for me was admin and OMT. This was a rural program so I felt like an outsider and haven't made any friends in school. The MD school I work at is completely different. You have thousands of faculty mentors to choose from, from any department you want. I work directly with medical students and they have 24/7 access to free counseling, a P/F curriculum, multiple opportunities to remediate, and etc. Compare that to a school that won't allow you to participate in extracurriculars if your GPA < 3.1 (with a solid B being a 3.0). This is not a healthy environment. Also a school that changes their curriculum to mandatory lectures one week before classes start, after the new students already committed to the school, and changes their SMP policy to guaranteed interview instead of guaranteed acceptance halfway through the program, trust me, is not a place you want to be in. At least COCA placed them on accreditation with heightened monitoring.

You only partially answered question We know that your former school was an ordeal.

Right now you are in an academic work environment; you're not a medical student. Also, There is no guarantee that you will be accepted into this program.

So, How will you deal with the furnace that is medical school?

 

[FluffyCat1212]

Thank you all for taking the time to respond. People tend to get bashed here so I avoided too much info. But since it has been brought up, I will try to clarify what I mean by "supportiveness". Our DO admin would threaten to dismiss students over professionalism. Multiple students were disciplined or suspended for very minor "infractions" (e.g., traffic ticket, missed vaccination, TikTok video of them dancing).

Oof, I would be toast at your school. I think that my dancing would be so bad and embarrassing that they would expel me immediately.

All joking aside, I'm so sorry that you had to go through that. I'm at a USMD school, but we're super tiny (n=55ish) and I would say that it really contributes to the supportive nature of the school. There are a few admin members and faculty that I'm not the biggest fan of, but there are also a quite a few who have been overwhelmingly supportive. I've had faculty and TAs reach out if I didn't do well on a quiz/minor assessment. Admin is also largely supportive, and will return emails/calls/texts super quickly, sometimes even outside of normal business hours. There are a few who have also advocated on our behalf to other admin/faculty. We have really involved academic success advisors and a PRN counselor on staff. We're paired with several mentors (career, med fam, there's a recent program that paired us up with retired docs in the area) and an upperclassman (med sib). It's also traditional for upperclassmen to host "how to study for this block" sessions for the first few blocks. Finding research is mostly on you, but I'm sure admin would help if you kept running into dead ends.

Also, everything being P/F for the first 1.5 years takes a lot of pressure off.

 

[OMMKing]

Oof, I would be toast at your school. I think that my dancing would be so bad and embarrassing that they would expel me immediately.

All joking aside, I'm so sorry that you had to go through that. I'm at a USMD school, but we're super tiny (n=55ish) and I would say that it really contributes to the supportive nature of the school. There are a few admin members and faculty that I'm not the biggest fan of, but there are also a quite a few who have been overwhelmingly supportive. I've had faculty and TAs reach out if I didn't do well on a quiz/minor assessment. Admin is also largely supportive, and will return emails/calls/texts super quickly, sometimes even outside of normal business hours. There are a few who have also advocated on our behalf to other admin/faculty. We have really involved academic success advisors and a PRN counselor on staff. We're paired with several mentors (career, med fam, there's a recent program that paired us up with retired docs in the area) and an upperclassman (med sib). It's also traditional for upperclassmen to host "how to study for this block" sessions for the first few blocks. Finding research is mostly on you, but I'm sure admin would help if you kept running into dead ends.

Also, everything being P/F for the first 1.5 years takes a lot of pressure off.

Thanks for sharing. That sounds absolutely amazing. Is this Mayo? Can you please PM me the school?

 

[SooConfused]

I second this. As a current applicant, I'm terrified. Please let us know what school treats its students so poorly.

As terrifying as this might be, @OMMKing should be more terrified about the certainty of being doxxed if they help you out with this information.

I think the takeaway should be making you aware of things to keep an eye out for in the event you have more than one choice next spring, rather than expecting a stranger on an internet forum to trust another stranger with their identity, and then hoping it does not come back to bite them. I'd never do it.

Edit: OP has generously left enough clues that it should not be too difficult to figure out with just a tiny bit of research.

 

[Faster Horses]

@OMMKing sounds like you are describing William Carey

 

[Goro]

@OMMKing sounds like you are describing William Carey

It's not William Carey. I'm posting this because William Carey has changed this act and has improved a lot since they were on accreditation watch.

Let's just say that the op went to a school that is on my radar as being anti-student.

I suggest that we stop trying to speculate what school this is, in order to maintain the anonymity of the OP. They've been through enough.

 

[MDMechEngr]

It's not William Carey. I'm posting this because William Carey has changed this act and has improved a lot since they were on accreditation watch.

Let's just say that the op went to a school that is on my radar as being anti-student.

I suggest that we stop trying to speculate what school this is, in order to maintain the anonymity of the OP. They've been through enough.

Okay. William Carey is no longer William SCarey according to Goro.

It would be intereting to get an Idea of what schools are malignant per the survey above.

 

[OMMKing]

As terrifying as this might be, @OMMKing should be more terrified about the certainty of being doxxed if they help you out with this information.

I think the takeaway should be making you aware of things to keep an eye out for in the event you have more than one choice next spring, rather than expecting a stranger on an internet forum to trust another stranger with their identity, and then hoping it does not come back to bite them. I'd never do it.

Edit: OP has generously left enough clues that it should not be too difficult to figure out with just a tiny bit of research.

I do not mind sharing the school and helping others out. I wish someone warned me when I had multiple acceptances to choose from. I think it is the right thing to do. Also, they suspended and dismissed so many students. There is no true appeals process because many of the faculty on the promotions board are family members with the admin and provost. Heck, half the school has the same last name. When it is 20+ students per graduating class, it is almost certainly a school problem.

 

[SooConfused]

I do not mind sharing the school and helping others out. I wish someone warned me when I had multiple acceptances to choose from. I think it is the right thing to do. Also, they suspended and dismissed so many students. There is no true appeals process because many of the faculty on the promotions board are family members with the admin and provost. Heck, half the school has the same last name. When it is 20+ students per graduating class, it is almost certainly a school problem.

That's very generous of you. Most people want to protect their anonymity, and I was just trying to support you in that, given how small the world is. But it's certainly your call to make.