Do most pre-meds lie on their applications?

[USC 22]

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I am aware that SDN has some of the most genuine pre-meds and medical students, so I'm not talking about us (after all, we're a small population). I had a friend get into 4 MD schools and he completely fabricated his ECs. For example, he shadowed an obstetrician once, and put down that he shadowed there for 300 hours over 6 months. He pretty much exaggerated every activity by hundreds of hours. A few of my other friends have done the same. Is this really that common, or do I just have friends that make poor decisions? Kinda sad to be honest.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

I'm sure it happens more than most of us would like to think. It's incredibly risky though considering you never know if one of your contacts will get called. If they are called, it's game over.

 

[Planes2Doc]

Well it depends on what you consider lying.

Making up an activity that you never did is most definitely lying.

What about embellishing hours? Most people won't have an exact number. And many will inflate. But where exactly do you draw the line between innocent embellishment and lying?

 

[La Presse]

I honestly feel that a separate committee needs to be designated this job--verifying hours and contacts on AMCAS. It is so disappointing that people, our future physicians, actually fabricate information on their applications.

 

[USC 22]

Well it depends on what you consider lying.

Making up an activity that you never did is most definitely lying.

What about embellishing hours? Most people won't have an exact number. And many will inflate. But where exactly do you draw the line between innocent embellishment and lying?

My guess is that the majority of applicants exaggerate their hours by quite a bit. I'm not sure about making up non-existent activities. I don't think as many people do that, to be honest.

 

[Planes2Doc]

I honestly feel that a separate committee needs to be designated this job--verifying hours and contacts on AMCAS. It is so disappointing that people, our future physicians, actually fabricate information on their applications.

Indeed. When I worked at my last job, they had a background check company look over every aspect of my resume. I was shocked when they inquired about the pizza delivery job I had in high school and college. 😱

With schools not looking into authenticity of peoples' ECs, it sends a pretty strong message, that maybe these activities aren't nearly as important (toward becoming a physician) as some people on SDN believe.

With the way the EC arms race has been going, I think it's pushing the ugly side out of people. I think this is having a pretty bad effect on different people. For instance, an applicant might have no problem rounding their 323 hours of ED volunteering to 350. Sure the extra 27 hours look like nothing on paper and probably wouldn't be considered "lying" by the ADCOMs. But in reality, for the box-checker being forced to go through the motions (and who is honest about hours), those 27 hours are long and tedious. They are far more real than what's on paper. 🙁

 

[911 Turbo]

well I guess I won't have to do an ECs, ill just make them up...




500 hours in ER, volunteering
200 hours in a soup kitchen
300 hours in a camp for disabled kids
150 hours shadowing cardiologist
50 hours shadowing gp


yeah that sounds about right

 

[Geebeejay]

I am aware that SDN has some of the most genuine pre-meds and medical students

Lol....

 

[La Presse]

Indeed. When I worked at my last job, they had a background check company look over every aspect of my resume. I was shocked when they inquired about the pizza delivery job I had in high school and college. 😱

With schools not looking into authenticity of peoples' ECs, it sends a pretty strong message, that maybe these activities aren't nearly as important (toward becoming a physician) as some people on SDN believe.

With the way the EC arms race has been going, I think it's pushing the ugly side out of people. I think this is having a pretty bad effect on different people. For instance, an applicant might have no problem rounding their 323 hours of ED volunteering to 350. Sure the extra 27 hours look like nothing on paper and probably wouldn't be considered "lying" by the ADCOMs. But in reality, for the box-checker being forced to go through the motions (and who is honest about hours), those 27 hours are long and tedious. They are far more real than what's on paper. 🙁

I think that some of these activities, like a strong commitment to research, can be validated through a letter from a post-doc or PI who can reference a student's work.

Even now, premedical students who formally volunteer for a clinic or hospital, are asked to sign in and their hours are logged. The clinic usually makes a note of these hours (electronically) and has a preliminary requirement of about 100 hours. This preliminary usually entitles the student to shot records, letters of reference, and other perks that one would not normally receive after making a commitment to volunteer at the location. Perhaps if hospitals partnered with AMCAS (or TMDSAS), where an overview of hours volunteered or shadowed is submitted, could possibly mitigate the influx of dishonest applicants.

Just a thought.

 

[Mezz]

well I guess I won't have to do an ECs, ill just make them up...




500 hours in ER, volunteering
200 hours in a soup kitchen
300 hours in a camp for disabled kids
150 hours shadowing cardiologist
50 hours shadowing gp


yeah that sounds about right

well aren't you just a saint...

 

[HughMyron]

I am aware that SDN has some of the most genuine pre-meds and medical students...

U r not aware brah.

 

[amazing tekkers]

U r not aware brah.

I finally get your name.

 

[amazing tekkers]

I honestly feel that a separate committee needs to be designated this job--verifying hours and contacts on AMCAS. It is so disappointing that people, our future physicians, actually fabricate information on their applications.

I agree but nobody really has time for that

 

[Planes2Doc]

I agree but nobody really has time for that

 

[darklabel]

I think that some of these activities, like a strong commitment to research, can be validated through a letter from a post-doc or PI who can reference a student's work.

Even now, premedical students who formally volunteer for a clinic or hospital, are asked to sign in and their hours are logged. The clinic usually makes a note of these hours (electronically) and has a preliminary requirement of about 100 hours. This preliminary usually entitles the student to shot records, letters of reference, and other perks that one would not normally receive after making a commitment to volunteer at the location. Perhaps if hospitals partnered with AMCAS (or TMDSAS), where an overview of hours volunteered or shadowed is submitted, could possibly mitigate the influx of dishonest applicants.

Just a thought.

Haha, sorry but hospitals have far more important issues than helping pre-meds. Believe it or not, a lot of people actually volunteer to be nice people.

Honestly, a lot do, but you can only embellish so much. If you add hours (500 instead of 100) or add things such as clubs and such than it is a committee's waste of time to verify this. Adding such things doesn't really help your resume as much as SDN would love to believe; only gives it a tiny bump. Now if you say things like published, or fabricate large important stuff, than it may be as easily verifiable as a Google search. Also, if something sounds fishy, they will call the reference, but they will only do it for one and only if the resume sounds too good to be true (from LizzyM and I'm sure most committees are the same).

 

[La Presse]

Haha, sorry but hospitals have far more important issues than helping pre-meds. Believe it or not, a lot of people actually volunteer to be nice people.

Honestly, a lot do, but you can only embellish so much. If you add hours (500 instead of 100) or add things such as clubs and such than it is a committee's waste of time to verify this. Adding such things doesn't really help your resume as much as SDN would love to believe; only gives it a tiny bump. Now if you say things like published, or fabricate large important stuff, than it may be as easily verifiable as a Google search. Also, if something sounds fishy, they will call the reference, but they will only do it for one and only if the resume sounds too good to be true.

It is just not premeds. I was quite taken aback at the number of students I encountered who volunteered to fulfill an academic requirement or for some type of community service.

 

[Planes2Doc]

It is just not premeds. I was quite taken aback at the number of students I encountered who volunteered to fulfill an academic requirement or for some type of community service.

I remember them when they were volunteering at the hospital in the summer. There were so many of them. I saw one once in the cafeteria, and boy did he look pissed.

 

[MedPR]

My guess is that the majority of applicants exaggerate their hours by quite a bit. I'm not sure about making up non-existent activities. I don't think as many people do that, to be honest.

Inflating hours probably isn't always malicious. I'm sure it happens more often than not.

 

[Planes2Doc]

Inflating hours probably isn't always malicious. I'm sure it happens more often than not.

And that's the problem... No one knows where to draw the line.

 

[Medstart108]

I am aware that SDN has some of the most genuine pre-meds and medical students, so I'm not talking about us (after all, we're a small population). I had a friend get into 4 MD schools and he completely fabricated his ECs. For example, he shadowed an obstetrician once, and put down that he shadowed there for 300 hours over 6 months. He pretty much exaggerated every activity by hundreds of hours. A few of my other friends have done the same. Is this really that common, or do I just have friends that make poor decisions? Kinda sad to be honest.

I didn't lie on my application. Don't lie, the yahoo CEO who was kicked out recently was found to have embellished his job application with degrees he never earned.

Even if you were accepted based on embellished stats. You will never know if you would have been accepted normally. You will live every minute of your life on med school not knowing if that friend from high school will rat you out or if someone will figure it out. You just don't want the burden of not knowing if you will be hauled before the admissions committee for lying on your app.

 

[mehc012]

I didn't lie on my application. Don't lie, the yahoo CEO who was kicked out recently was found to have embellished his job application with degrees he never earned.

Even if you were accepted based on embellished stats. You will never know if you would have been accepted normally. You will live every minute of your life on med school not knowing if that friend from high school will rat you out or if someone will figure it out. You just don't want the burden of not knowing if you will be hauled before the admissions committee for lying on your app.

Sure, if you just make things up...especially crucial points like degrees. 😱 But I'm willing to bet that most people who simply over-generously ballpark their figures don't lose a second of sleep over it, nor consider it ever again after acceptance. And let's be real, no medical student is going to be "hauled before the admissions committee" for anything less than outright fabrication (or hour inflation so egregious it may as well be fabrication). 🙄

 

[occams_razor]

it's a pretty dumb thing to do considering you must list a contact for each activity and med schools do sometimes contact these people to verify what you listed

 

[occams_razor]

I think that some of these activities, like a strong commitment to research, can be validated through a letter from a post-doc or PI who can reference a student's work.

Even now, premedical students who formally volunteer for a clinic or hospital, are asked to sign in and their hours are logged. The clinic usually makes a note of these hours (electronically) and has a preliminary requirement of about 100 hours. This preliminary usually entitles the student to shot records, letters of reference, and other perks that one would not normally receive after making a commitment to volunteer at the location. Perhaps if hospitals partnered with AMCAS (or TMDSAS), where an overview of hours volunteered or shadowed is submitted, could possibly mitigate the influx of dishonest applicants.

Just a thought.

the free clinic I volunteered at never had a sign in or anything, they really didn't keep track of volunteers hours, I had to keep track of my hours on my own.

 

[circulus vitios]

I didn't lie on my application. Don't lie, the yahoo CEO who was kicked out recently was found to have embellished his job application with degrees he never earned.

Even if you were accepted based on embellished stats. You will never know if you would have been accepted normally. You will live every minute of your life on med school not knowing if that friend from high school will rat you out or if someone will figure it out. You just don't want the burden of not knowing if you will be hauled before the admissions committee for lying on your app.

No one in the history of medical school has ever been expelled for lying on their application. It would be all over the internet if it had happened. Admissions committees have a hard enough job doing the bare minimum for the current application cycle. What makes you think anyone would spend the time calling every single contact for a few hundred medical students? Even if they found inconsistencies, do you really think they would expel a student and lose $50-200k in tuition?

 

[Planes2Doc]

No one in the history of medical school has ever been expelled for lying on their application. It would be all over the internet if it had happened. Admissions committees have a hard enough job doing the bare minimum for the current application cycle. What makes you think anyone would spend the time calling every single contact for a few hundred medical students? Even if they found inconsistencies, do you really think they would expel a student and lose $50-200k in tuition?

Unless someone was dumb enough to brag about fabricating ECs directly to the school administration as a current student, I doubt that anyone would look back on ECs and verify them. So once you are a current student, you are safe.

But if ADCOMs come across something fishy for an applicant, then indeed they will call and verify.

 

[occams_razor]

No one in the history of medical school has ever been expelled for lying on their application. It would be all over the internet if it had happened. Admissions committees have a hard enough job doing the bare minimum for the current application cycle. What makes you think anyone would spend the time calling every single contact for a few hundred medical students? Even if they found inconsistencies, do you really think they would expel a student and lose $50-200k in tuition?

I've seen people on SDN say that their contacts were emailed or called to verify activities for no apparent reason, so it seems that some schools do this randomly. other schools will call all the contacts if they think there are inconsistencies, as the UMich adcom tweeted - https://twitter.com/UMichMedAdmiss/status/299194176006922240

what I wonder is what happens when there is an inconsistency after they call a contact? for example, let's say someone listed a supervisor from an activity that happened a while ago and then the supervisor doesn't have a record of the exact hours (this was an issue for one of my friends at a soup kitchen he volunteered at, they didn't keep good records and it was his freshman year, so he ended up just listing his academic advsior as the contact) - do they give the student the benefit of the doubt?

 

[benzonase]

Yes, because its encouraged and as you showed, rewarded by adcoms. An extraordinary high risk for an equally extraordinary high reward. People will take it.

 

[circulus vitios]

I've seen people on SDN say that their contacts were emailed or called to verify activities for no apparent reason, so it seems that some schools do this randomly. other schools will call all the contacts if they think there are inconsistencies, as the UMich adcom tweeted - https://twitter.com/UMichMedAdmiss/status/299194176006922240

what I wonder is what happens when there is an inconsistency after they call a contact? for example, let's say someone listed a supervisor from an activity that happened a while ago and then the supervisor doesn't have a record of the exact hours (this was an issue for one of my friends at a soup kitchen he volunteered at, they didn't keep good records and it was his freshman year, so he ended up just listing his academic advsior as the contact) - do they give the student the benefit of the doubt?

I know they sometimes verify information before acceptance. I'm arguing that after acceptance they won't do anything unless it's some ridiculous fabrication.

 

[HughMyron]

Also think about it this way. There are 15 slots on the application, which is a crapton. For nontrads, it's prob pretty easy to rack up enough activities. For undergrads, it's much harder. I wouldn't be surprised if some undergrads fabricate and inflate ECs just so they can fill up the slots and even the playing field between them and the advantaged nontrads.

It would be much better if AMCAS only had 5-7 spots for activities, but forced you to write an essay about all of them.

 

[xXIDaShizIXx]

also think about it this way. There are 15 slots on the application, which is a crapton. For nontrads, it's prob pretty easy to rack up enough activities. For undergrads, it's much harder. I wouldn't be surprised if some undergrads fabricate and inflate ecs just so they can fill up the slots and even the playing field between them and the advantaged nontrads.

It would be much better if amcas only had 5-7 spots for activities, but forced you to write an essay about all of them.

Not more essays!!!

 

[TriagePreMed]

Yes, there are probably a lot of people that do this, and yes, probably a lot get away with it. This is the same as any other crime. Some people do it, some get caught, some don't get caught and some don't do the crimes. Personally, I feel that if you've done so much this far to get into medical school, it's really not worth it to lie. Instead, go ahead and do the things you want to see on your application.

 

[HughMyron]

Not more essays!!!

Shorter essays like 2000-2500 characters. Just long enough so that it would be very hard to lie convincingly about them.

The EC Madness has to stop. I think one reason it exists is the increasing number of nontrads, who come loaded with activities because they've lived longer. Undergrads do tons and tons of ECs to try to even the playing field.

What we need to do is lower the number of ECs, but make each one of them meaningful. That's why I proposed less activity slots, but longer description essays for each of them.

 

[mehc012]

Also think about it this way. There are 15 slots on the application, which is a crapton. For nontrads, it's prob pretty easy to rack up enough activities. For undergrads, it's much harder. I wouldn't be surprised if some undergrads fabricate and inflate ECs just so they can fill up the slots and even the playing field between them and the advantaged nontrads.

It would be much better if AMCAS only had 5-7 spots for activities, but forced you to write an essay about all of them.

🙄

 

[HughMyron]

🙄

Well it's true...

 

[Lys Ile Glu Leu]

Well it depends on what you consider lying.

Making up an activity that you never did is most definitely lying.

What about embellishing hours? Most people won't have an exact number. And many will inflate. But where exactly do you draw the line between innocent embellishment and lying?

Innocent embellishment? No such thing. Give the most accurate ballpark estimate possible, and only then is it not morally questionable. If you think you're going over, well..

 

[mehc012]

Someone needs to spend more time in the nontrads forum. Only don't, because then it too will become filled primarily with every single random thought flitting through your head

 

[music2doc]

I am aware that SDN has some of the most genuine pre-meds and medical students, so I'm not talking about us (after all, we're a small population). I had a friend get into 4 MD schools and he completely fabricated his ECs. For example, he shadowed an obstetrician once, and put down that he shadowed there for 300 hours over 6 months. He pretty much exaggerated every activity by hundreds of hours. A few of my other friends have done the same. Is this really that common, or do I just have friends that make poor decisions? Kinda sad to be honest.

I definitely didn't. I actually estimated LOW on my number of hrs because when I posted in WAMC with actual numbers I got a lot of "That's Impossible! How could you have worked...and gone to school...and run a program... and volunteered... and...???" responses and didn't want any such accusations in an interview.

 

[HughMyron]

Someone needs to spend more time in the nontrads forum. Only don't, because then it too will become filled primarily with every single random thought flitting through your head

What did I say that was incorrect? Nontrads have an EC advantage because living longer gives them more ECs, work experience, volunteering, whatever. That's pretty much a fact.

 

[deleted127837]

Shorter essays like 2000-2500 characters. Just long enough so that it would be very hard to lie convincingly about them.

The EC Madness has to stop. I think one reason it exists is the increasing number of nontrads, who come loaded with activities because they've lived longer. Undergrads do tons and tons of ECs to try to even the playing field.

What we need to do is lower the number of ECs, but make each one of them meaningful. That's why I proposed less activity slots, but longer description essays for each of them.

What did I say that was incorrect? Nontrads have an EC advantage because living longer gives them more ECs, work experience, volunteering, whatever. That's pretty much a fact.

Easy to solve! Stop admitting "traditionals" 😛 After all, how well will traditionals relate to their patients when they've never known life outside of school?

 

[mehc012]

What did I say that was incorrect? Nontrads have an EC advantage because living longer gives them more ECs, work experience, volunteering, whatever. That's pretty much a fact.

Sure, assuming that you are only referencing nontrads who knew they wanted to go into medicine and purposefully took time off.

Otherwise, you run into a lot of people who are attempting to take prereqs on the side while continuing the career they already started (fulltime job + halftime classes), who have kids, who have both 😱 or who honestly never knew they wanted to go into medicine until later in life.

The kid who has known they want to be a doctor since freshman year of college has 4 solid years (half of each of which they have no academic obligations), can take research as a course, knows profs in the research community, probably knows of programs at the local hospitals, etc...

Deciding later means you have to balance all of this with your current life, lack the premed resources you would have in school, rarely take summers off, and are ineligible for a lot of the great experiences such as research internships, summer premed programs, etc...

Even if you only put it in terms of time, most traditional students have 3 or 4 years to look into ECs, and most nontrads are trying to find the shortest path to medicine from wherever they may be when they decide.

 

[music2doc]

What did I say that was incorrect? Nontrads have an EC advantage because living longer gives them more ECs, work experience, volunteering, whatever. That's pretty much a fact.

Yes, but often they (we? although I was strongly an exception to this rule) also have weaker GPAs as a group and may struggle for a higher MCAT due to not having learned most of the material recently/taking only the minimum required prereqs.

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

I think it's worth pointing out that beyond a short threshold, med school adcoms probably don't care about how many hours you have in an activity. After all, even a particularly hardy strain of e.coli could put in thousands of hours at a free clinic's front desk. What matters is what you do in your ECs. Not everyone can raise a million dollars for a charity, or set up a tutoring program for students at an underprivileged inner city high school that boosts passing scores in a particular AP test by 75% within a year, or publish a peer-reviewed journal article. And unlike hours, achievements are verifiable and lies can be easily sniffed out.

All hours show is commitment to an activity and multi-tasking. While both are desirable traits, there's likely a point where you hit rapidly diminishing returns (eg: if one applicant has 500 hours in habit for humanity and the other has 5000, just how much more are those other 4500 hours worth compared to other aspects of the application? Do the extra hours really add anything new?)

 

[deleted303591]

Don't lie. It is important to have morals and be ethical as a doctor. The second you intend on becoming a doctor, you better live up to such standards.

 

[music2doc]

I think it's worth pointing out that beyond a short threshold, med school adcoms probably don't care about how many hours you have in an activity. After all, even a particularly hardy strain of e.coli could put in thousands of hours at a free clinic's front desk. What matters is what you do in your ECs. Not everyone can raise a million dollars for a charity, or set up a tutoring program for students at an underprivileged inner city high school that boosts passing scores in a particular AP test by 75% within a year, or publish a peer-reviewed journal article. And unlike hours, achievements are verifiable and lies can be easily sniffed out.

All hours show is commitment to an activity and multi-tasking. While both are desirable traits, there's likely a point where you hit rapidly diminishing returns (eg: if one applicant has 500 hours in habit for humanity and the other has 5000, just how much more are those other 4500 hours worth compared to other aspects of the application? Do the extra hours really add anything new?)

This is true. What you accomplish and get FROM the experience is far more important than hours put in. The other side, though, is that usually people are willing to give you more responsibility if you've invested more hours into something. If you walk in your second week of volunteering and want to start training new volunteers , there's no way they're going to take you seriously. However, if you offer to train new volunteers after 6 mos of consistent work, they are much more likely to give you that new responsibility.

 

[Umyo]

It is sad that they are doing things like this.

 

[circulus vitios]

Don't lie. It is important to have morals and be ethical as a doctor. The second you intend on becoming a doctor, you better live up to such standards.

Extracurricular activities have nothing to do with being a physician, with the exception of shadowing and research. Lie about them all you want because they are absolutely meaningless.

 

[music2doc]

Extracurricular activities have nothing to do with being a physician, with the exception of shadowing and research. Lie about them all you want because they are absolutely meaningless.

Tell that to your med school's curriculum office when you get there or to the AAMC. I'm sure it'll make you some friends....

 

[mcloaf]

Easy to solve! Stop admitting "traditionals" 😛 After all, how well will traditionals relate to their patients when they've never known life outside of school?

I can't tell if you're being facetious, but some schools (UWash I know, I'm sure tgere are others) do place a fair amount of weight on post-college "life" experience. IIRC avg matriculant age at UW is like 26...

 

[circulus vitios]

Tell that to your med school's curriculum office when you get there or to the AAMC. I'm sure it'll make you some friends....

They want to play games, I'll play games.

 

[Shockwave456]

Just my $0.02:

I'm not sure about most, but many probably do. When you think about it, the med admissions process is really funny: some things are almost never verified (like EC hours), whereas for the MCAT they treat you like a criminal, tell you to empty your pockets, fingerprint you, and videotape you. I'm surprised a strip search was not involved there somewhere.

What would actually help is if freshmen and sophomore pre-meds better understood the expectations of the schools they'll be applying to, and actually try to accomplish those things. Maybe then the junior won't go "oh, crap" and make up activities to bolster his/her application.