Do most pre-meds lie on their applications?

[deleted303591]

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The vast majority of typical pre-med volunteer work helps absolutely no one (well, other than the hospital executives who get a slightly bigger bonus because they didn't have to pay someone minimum wage to stock shelves or organize medical records.) 🙂

They help you because it shows that you can make commitments outside of school.

 

[Lys Ile Glu Leu]

Do you get paid to volunteer?

No, but does it count if I volunteer to (not in order to) get paid..?

 

[Lys Ile Glu Leu]

 

[MedPR]

The vast majority of typical pre-med volunteer work helps absolutely no one (well, other than the hospital executives who get a slightly bigger bonus because they didn't have to pay someone minimum wage to stock shelves or organize medical records.) 🙂

If you want to help you can find a way to help in any volunteer setting. If you want to sit around and log hours you can do that too. The fact that you would even try to justify counting commuting time in the number of hours you volunteered somewhere tells me you chose the second option.

 

[occams_razor]

I'm not going to talk about the process since it is used on an adcom. In generalities, 2 of them were found incidentally, ie there were inconsistencies within the application that made it obvious that something wasn't right. The other two claimed something that sounded like a stretch and on about 2-3 minutes of digging were found to be fabricated. It didn't exactly take much effort is my point. The worst part is the only reason why anyone went looking for things was because they were otherwise good applicants with good GPA/MCAT who would have been interviewing, but decided to bs their ECs and essentially got themselves canned.

As I stated before, hours matter little if anything. If you are within an order of magnitude it makes zero difference. Nobody is going to care if you are off by even 50%. It looks no more impressive.

wow, you'd think people who are smart enough to do well on the MCAT and get good grades in difficult classes would be smart enough to realize that BSing ECs is a terrible idea/adcoms are really good at noticing inconsistencies

 

[Shockwave456]

I think it's perfectly fair.

According to AAA, for a sedan driving 15k miles a year, the average cost per mile driven is 59.6. This is everyting, wear and tear, brake pads, etc.

Companies should be reimbursing more IMO.

It's definitely fair, just something I've never had the pleasure of receiving, lol.

 

[MedPR]

wow, you'd think people who are smart enough to do well on the MCAT and get good grades in difficult classes would be smart enough to realize that BSing ECs is a terrible idea/adcoms are really good at noticing inconsistencies

High GPA/MCAT sometimes (often?) leads to arrogance. Arrogance leads to thinking you're invincible. Invincibility leads to thinking you're above the law, etc.

 

[Lys Ile Glu Leu]

If you want to help you can find a way to help in any volunteer setting. If you want to sit around and log hours you can do that too. The fact that you would even try to justify counting commuting time in the number of hours you volunteered somewhere tells me you chose the second option.

👍👍

 

[GorillaPanic]

I finally get your name.

Woah, me too, now. Wow. Dunno how I missed that...

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[A Nony Mouse]

My guess is that the majority of applicants exaggerate their hours by quite a bit. I'm not sure about making up non-existent activities. I don't think as many people do that, to be honest.

Well now I feel stupid for rounding DOWN. Oh well got in anyway.

I can understand how there is a Grey line though. I have been in charge of multiple fundraisers while in school, and that's not exactly something you can easily track hours for. Sure the actual event only takes 2 days, but what about all the behind the scenes work? No one but you knows how many sponsors you had to drive to go see, how long you spent designing posters, planning how to set up/run event, buying and cooking food for event, finding volunteers, reserving equipment and locations, etc... I hated recording hours because I didn't feel comfortable including the vast majority of this, yet it certainly took time to do.

Thinking back, I didn't even include some volunteering experiences LOL. Unless it was hospital or healthcare related, it wasn't mentioned unless I organized it.

Counting the time to drive to the hospital to volunteer is probably ok. Anything beyond that is probably lying.

I wouldn't personally include any travel time; however, it is potentially another grey area. Not driving time though because that's expected of everyone anyway. I've been to a few conferences because of my volunteering/leadership positions in order to learn skills and techniques that would help me be a more successful leader in the future. If I had to travel halfway across the country to get there, should I have counted that time? Should I have added in the time from the conference? More Grey area. Personally, I played it safe and didn't. AMCAS shouldn't use time to judge extracurriculars/volunteering at all.

 

[circulus vitios]

They help you because it shows that you can make commitments outside of school.

That's what a job is for. You know, a commitment where you're rewarded for your time.

 

[Pattycake25]

wow, you'd think people who are smart enough to do well on the MCAT and get good grades in difficult classes would be smart enough to realize that BSing ECs is a terrible idea/adcoms are really good at noticing inconsistencies

It doesn't have to do with intelligence.

I lied on my app to Hopkins UG, basically because I panicked - was literally paranoid - over the fact I had no sports on my application (seriously). And the lie was that I claimed to be on the JUNIOR varsity (again, seriously, I didn't even go for broke to claim varsity hahaha) cross-country team, when I really "ran an equivalent amount on my own", or so I rationalized to myself. I never got past the guilt, especially once I was accepted ED, and eventually confessed.

Now think about how much we rag applicants for medical volunteering, for leadership, for other things. And how everyone knows and rants incessantly about the difficulty of getting into medical school. And how it's such a massive investment of time and money to even try. Is it believable now how otherwise good-hearted, otherwise intelligent, but unfortunately "weak" people lie? =/

 

[Planes2Doc]

The question that is answered by your ECs is what do you do with your free time? Do you sit around and play video games and get drunk with your friends or do you do other things that demonstrate your additional qualities?

Here's the million dollar question: WHY SHOULD IT MATTER WHAT YOU DO IN YOUR FREE TIME?

😕 😕 😕

 

[mimelim]

Here's the million dollar question: WHY SHOULD IT MATTER WHAT YOU DO IN YOUR FREE TIME?

😕 😕 😕

What you do with your 'free time' says a lot about you and quite frankly what kind of doctor you are going to be. Personally, I think it correlates with being a good doctor better than grades or your MCAT score. Never mind the fact that if you are productive in college, you are likely to be productive in medical school and beyond.

 

[NickNaylor]

What you do with your 'free time' says a lot about you and quite frankly what kind of doctor you are going to be. Personally, I think it correlates with being a good doctor better than grades or your MCAT score. Never mind the fact that if you are productive in college, you are likely to be productive in medical school and beyond.

I'm not so sure. I would definitely agree that Gunner Gary who spends his free time reading research articles and other productive things will probably know a lot, but that's about it. Given a choice I probably would've done nothing but hang out with friends, play games, and do what I generally want. I don't think that means I would be a bad physician.

I did a ton of ECs in college and, while I enjoyed them and had a good time, most of them weren't things I would've done spontaneously. Now that I'm in med school, my time that isn't spent studying is largely spent watching TV, playing games, and hanging out. Again, not so sure that that means I'm going to be a poor resident or physician. All it means is that I enjoy things that aren't necessarily "productive." It doesn't say anything about my work ethic or other things I would want to know about a future colleague.

(sent from my phone)

 

[Planes2Doc]

What you do with your 'free time' says a lot about you and quite frankly what kind of doctor you are going to be. Personally, I think it correlates with being a good doctor better than grades or your MCAT score. Never mind the fact that if you are productive in college, you are likely to be productive in medical school and beyond.

But then it comes down to whether people would have been doing it in the first place or not. Outside of the medical school admissions process, I have met very few people that are as "altruistic" as pre-meds are.

So if these pre-meds are only doing these activities for the sake of medical school admissions, then what does it really say about them? Does it show that they are altruistic people that will make fine physicians, or does it show that they are conformists that would have made fine physicians whether or not they did the activities in the first place?

 

[Geebeejay]

I'm not so sure. I would definitely agree that Gunner Gary who spends his free time reading research articles and other productive things will probably know a lot, but that's about it. Given a choice I probably would've done nothing but hang out with friends, play games, and do what I generally want. I don't think that means I would be a bad physician.

I did a ton of ECs in college and, while I enjoyed them and had a good time, most of them weren't things I would've done spontaneously. Now that I'm in med school, my time that isn't spent studying is largely spent watching TV, playing games, and hanging out. Again, not so sure that that means I'm going to be a poor resident or physician. All it means is that I enjoy things that aren't necessarily "productive." It doesn't say anything about my work ethic or other things I would want to know about a future colleague.

(sent from my phone)

+1 I had a similar transition from high school to undergrad. I spent all of my time in HS volunteering, editor of this, cochair of that, etc (granted my resume did impress enough to earn a damn good scholarship)....and by the time I got to undegrad, the time I wasn't in class or doing something that was actually meaningful to me, I was writing music, watching TV, playing video games and lifting. I don't see how this is going to make me a worse physician, and on the flip side I left undergrad without a taste of burnout and only eagerness for medical school.

I had a lot of fun in undergrad, made great friendships/memories, and learned a lot about myself. Plus, I think I feel a little more honest today knowing I didn't spend my entire undergrad pursueing meaningless endeavors simply for the sake of padding my application, yet still got accepted regardless.

 

[mimelim]

I'm not so sure. I would definitely agree that Gunner Gary who spends his free time reading research articles and other productive things will probably know a lot, but that's about it. Given a choice I probably would've done nothing but hang out with friends, play games, and do what I generally want. I don't think that means I would be a bad physician.

I did a ton of ECs in college and, while I enjoyed them and had a good time, most of them weren't things I would've done spontaneously. Now that I'm in med school, my time that isn't spent studying is largely spent watching TV, playing games, and hanging out. Again, not so sure that that means I'm going to be a poor resident or physician. All it means is that I enjoy things that aren't necessarily "productive." It doesn't say anything about my work ethic or other things I would want to know about a future colleague.

(sent from my phone)

I never said that it would make you a poor resident or physician. I am in no way implying that people should look like they don't take personal time to simply do nothing. My point is that schools are looking for people who are going to at a minimum be a good doctor. They are also on the lookout for the capacity to do more than that. Maybe I have a colored perspective based on what I went into and where I applied for residency. It is painfully obvious who did ECs for the sake of doing them and who did those things because that is just what they do.

I can not claim that this is how all residencies are. But I can tell you that at mine...

I work 80 hours a week, every week. We have in-service exams that we must score higher than 50th percentile on or we lose our spot in the program which are on par with the difficulty and scope of Step 1. We have mandatory publication requirements annually. Never mind that if you want to be great technically, you have to spend hours every week working outside of the OR. To be a 'decent' resident, you have to show up and work 80 hours a week here. If you want to be more than that, it is all about what you do with your time when you clock out after 80 hours. Personally, I spend round about 100-110 hours a week between clinical duties, studying, research and in the lab working on suturing anastamoses, getting exposure, understanding different stent delivery or filter delivery systems etc.

It is obvious who is here 5am to 7pm every day and punches out. As you said, most people are that way, it is in most people's nature. Medical schools nor residencies will never be able to fill themselves with people who don't think that way. There just aren't enough. But that doesn't mean they won't try.

 

[mimelim]

But then it comes down to whether people would have been doing it in the first place or not. Outside of the medical school admissions process, I have met very few people that are as "altruistic" as pre-meds are.

So if these pre-meds are only doing these activities for the sake of medical school admissions, then what does it really say about them? Does it show that they are altruistic people that will make fine physicians, or does it show that they are conformists that would have made fine physicians whether or not they did the activities in the first place?

I am not talking about altruism or spending hours doing things. Productivity in any area, that is what matters. Personally, if you aren't a psychopath, that is enough altruism for me.

 

[music2doc]

I never said that it would make you a poor resident or physician. I am in no way implying that people should look like they don't take personal time to simply do nothing. My point is that schools are looking for people who are going to at a minimum be a good doctor. They are also on the lookout for the capacity to do more than that. Maybe I have a colored perspective based on what I went into and where I applied for residency. It is painfully obvious who did ECs for the sake of doing them and who did those things because that is just what they do.

I can not claim that this is how all residencies are. But I can tell you that at mine...

I work 80 hours a week, every week. We have in-service exams that we must score higher than 50th percentile on or we lose our spot in the program which are on par with the difficulty and scope of Step 1. We have mandatory publication requirements annually. Never mind that if you want to be great technically, you have to spend hours every week working outside of the OR. To be a 'decent' resident, you have to show up and work 80 hours a week here. If you want to be more than that, it is all about what you do with your time when you clock out after 80 hours. Personally, I spend round about 100-110 hours a week between clinical duties, studying, research and in the lab working on suturing anastamoses, getting exposure, understanding different stent delivery or filter delivery systems etc.

It is obvious who is here 5am to 7pm every day and punches out. As you said, most people are that way, it is in most people's nature. Medical schools nor residencies will never be able to fill themselves with people who don't think that way. There just aren't enough. But that doesn't mean they won't try.

Wait a second...how do you ALL score above the 50th percentile or do half of you just get failed out after every in-service? I assume you are standardizing the 50th percentile to a larger population than your program itself? If so, to whom?

 

[GorillaPanic]

With ~40,000 applicants annually, do your really expect schools to make decisions for interviews using only mcat/GPA/personal statement? They want to know what sets you apart. The section itself is called "experiences and employment" if I remember correctly... the kind of stuff that you would put in a resume. Applying to Med school is essentially applying for a job..

More than anything, they want to know that YOU know what you're getting yourself into. The only way to show that is through experoence. Filling a spot with a student who will drop out is tragic.

 

[HughMyron]

Wait a second...how do you ALL score above the 50th percentile or do half of you just get failed out after every in-service? I assume you are standardizing the 50th percentile to a larger population than your program itself? If so, to whom?

Yeah I wondered about that too...would make no sense for a residency program to rid itself of half its people every year.

 

[Lys Ile Glu Leu]

I am not talking about altruism or spending hours doing things. Productivity in any area, that is what matters. Personally, if you aren't a psychopath, that is enough altruism for me.

So sociopaths are acceptable? 🙄

 

[MedPR]

Mimelim is making good points. Not sure why everyone is jumping on him.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

 

[MedPR]

Wait a second...how do you ALL score above the 50th percentile or do half of you just get failed out after every in-service? I assume you are standardizing the 50th percentile to a larger population than your program itself? If so, to whom?

Yeah I wondered about that too...would make no sense for a residency program to rid itself of half its people every year.

My guess is every resident takes in-service exams and mimelim's program requires their residents get above the national 50%. Shelfs are scored nationally as well, correct?


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[Erakis]

My guess is every resident takes in-service exams and mimelim's program requires their residents get above the national 50%. Shelfs are scored nationally as well, correct?


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I believe that you are correct. My wife just finished her in service for this year and that is my understanding

 

[mimelim]

Wait a second...how do you ALL score above the 50th percentile or do half of you just get failed out after every in-service? I assume you are standardizing the 50th percentile to a larger population than your program itself? If so, to whom?

We are compared to all other Vascular Surgery residents in the US for our ABSITE (general surgery in service) and to all other Vascular Surgery interns in the US for our VSITE (Vascular surgery in service). Keep in mind that the average Step 1 score for VS is 238-240. It isn't exactly an easy group to do stack up against. My point wasn't that it was hard. My program puts pressure on us to do very well on these exams, obviously not every program does that. My point was that even if you don't have to make a certain required level, you have to study after you leave the hospital after 80 hours.

So sociopaths are acceptable? 🙄

Yes. Sociopaths are perfectly fine. If you don't understand why you should probably learn the difference between the two. There is some ambiguity within the literature, but there is a difference between the two and sociopaths can still make good physicians.

 

[Lys Ile Glu Leu]

Mimelim is making good points. Not sure why everyone is jumping on him.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

That last one was just a joke on my part. Psych major nit-picky-ness. 😀

 

[Lys Ile Glu Leu]

Yes. Sociopaths are perfectly fine. If you don't understand why you should probably learn the difference between the two. There is some ambiguity within the literature, but there is a difference between the two and sociopaths can still make good physicians.

I understand the difference. It was my false assumption that you didn't that led me to that remark I made. Still, I think I'd prefer somebody with a bit more of a tendency toward empathy as my physician.

 

[Planes2Doc]

I am not talking about altruism or spending hours doing things. Productivity in any area, that is what matters. Personally, if you aren't a psychopath, that is enough altruism for me.

Why the need for this "productivity?" Do ADCOMs not realize that it is simply an extension of work being done in order to get into medical school?

For instance, I've read on certain threads that ADCOMs like to see what people do that is not medical related. So let's say the applicant considers their medical-related things to be their per-requisite courses, studying for the MCAT, and either clinical volunteering or a clinical job. Then they say that their non-medical activities that they enjoy doing in their free time are things like non-clinical volunteering.

I realize that the volunteering is looked upon kindly, but as NickNaylor said, had it not been for the admissions process, he would never have done certain activities. I have a hard time believing that so many people, after a long week of studying, will spend their weekends at a soup kitchen or tutoring underprivileged children. I think that this type of altruism is a very rare trait. Now I realize you said you weren't looking specifically at altruism, but the moral of the story is when the serious applicant is not doing the standardized things all pre-meds do (college courses and MCAT), they spend their so-called "free time" doing more things that the ADCOMs want to see.

Therefore, I don't think that ADCOMs are getting an accurate reflection of what people are actually like. Instead of seeing the normal human beings that we are, we like to shun the things that people normally enjoy. It's pretty much considered criminal here on SDN to want to hang out with friends or play games instead of volunteering in the soup kitchen.

And let me ask you this, why is there such a need for people to devote so much time to "productivity" before applying to medical school? If you want to get an extremely high-paying job like investment banking, all you really need is the right summer internship and attend a top university. Otherwise, during the year, people can study hard and play hard too. On the contrary, the SDN mentality pushes pre-meds away from the "play hard" mentality because it's "selfish" and something physicians just don't do. This isn't fair though. Especially considering the kinds of sacrifices that these pre-meds will make when they become medical students. They will sacrifice the best years of their lives to train in and pursue a profession to help humanity. I think that such extreme expected productivity before medical school can cause people to burnout and make them bitter against the process in general. Is the rest of their lives not enough productivity?

Is it really all that necessary to jump through all of these hoops before matriculating to medical school?

And once again, what does it say about a person if they never would have been doing these activities in the first place had they not been applying to medical school? 😕

 

[Lys Ile Glu Leu]

I can honestly say none of my ECs were done for the purpose of heightening my odds of gaining admission to medical school. They suck though..very limited breadth.

 

[Sidereum]

why the need for this "productivity?" do adcoms not realize that it is simply an extension of work being done in order to get into medical school?

For instance, i've read on certain threads that adcoms like to see what people do that is not medical related. So let's say the applicant considers their medical-related things to be their per-requisite courses, studying for the mcat, and either clinical volunteering or a clinical job. Then they say that their non-medical activities that they enjoy doing in their free time are things like non-clinical volunteering.

I realize that the volunteering is looked upon kindly, but as nicknaylor said, had it not been for the admissions process, he would never have done certain activities. I have a hard time believing that so many people, after a long week of studying, will spend their weekends at a soup kitchen or tutoring underprivileged children. I think that this type of altruism is a very rare trait. Now i realize you said you weren't looking specifically at altruism, but the moral of the story is when the serious applicant is not doing the standardized things all pre-meds do (college courses and mcat), they spend their so-called "free time" doing more things that the adcoms want to see.

Therefore, i don't think that adcoms are getting an accurate reflection of what people are actually like. Instead of seeing the normal human beings that we are, we like to shun the things that people normally enjoy. It's pretty much considered criminal here on sdn to want to hang out with friends or play games instead of volunteering in the soup kitchen.

And let me ask you this, why is there such a need for people to devote so much time to "productivity" before applying to medical school? If you want to get an extremely high-paying job like investment banking, all you really need is the right summer internship and attend a top university. Otherwise, during the year, people can study hard and play hard too. On the contrary, the sdn mentality pushes pre-meds away from the "play hard" mentality because it's "selfish" and something physicians just don't do. This isn't fair though. Especially considering the kinds of sacrifices that these pre-meds will make when they become medical students. They will sacrifice the best years of their lives to train in and pursue a profession to help humanity. I think that such extreme expected productivity before medical school can cause people to burnout and make them bitter against the process in general. Is the rest of their lives not enough productivity?

Is it really all that necessary to jump through all of these hoops before matriculating to medical school?

And once again, what does it say about a person if they never would have been doing these activities in the first place had they not been applying to medical school? 😕

+1

 

[xXIDaShizIXx]

Thats was really well thought out and I agree.

 

[HughMyron]

Planes2doc is def one of the coolest dudes on this board IMO. All his posts are on the money.

And let me ask you this, why is there such a need for people to devote so much time to "productivity" before applying to medical school? If you want to get an extremely high-paying job like investment banking, all you really need is the right summer internship and attend a top university. Otherwise, during the year, people can study hard and play hard too. On the contrary, the SDN mentality pushes pre-meds away from the "play hard" mentality because it's "selfish" and something physicians just don't do. This isn't fair though. Especially considering the kinds of sacrifices that these pre-meds will make when they become medical students. They will sacrifice the best years of their lives to train in and pursue a profession to help humanity. I think that such extreme expected productivity before medical school can cause people to burnout and make them bitter against the process in general. Is the rest of their lives not enough productivity?

If a banker snorts cocaine and solicits a prostitute, nobody would bat an eyelash. If a doctor did...well, you saw my thread about my Cancun plans. I'm not even a medical student yet, I've never done drugs or even had sex before, and people are acting like my acceptance should be revoked just for talking about it.

I want to know why SDNers think it's not okay for a physician to ever break a rigid moral code that most monks would be hard-pressed to follow.

 

[mimelim]

Why the need for this "productivity?" Do ADCOMs not realize that it is simply an extension of work being done in order to get into medical school?

For instance, I've read on certain threads that ADCOMs like to see what people do that is not medical related. So let's say the applicant considers their medical-related things to be their per-requisite courses, studying for the MCAT, and either clinical volunteering or a clinical job. Then they say that their non-medical activities that they enjoy doing in their free time are things like non-clinical volunteering.

I realize that the volunteering is looked upon kindly, but as NickNaylor said, had it not been for the admissions process, he would never have done certain activities. I have a hard time believing that so many people, after a long week of studying, will spend their weekends at a soup kitchen or tutoring underprivileged children. I think that this type of altruism is a very rare trait. Now I realize you said you weren't looking specifically at altruism, but the moral of the story is when the serious applicant is not doing the standardized things all pre-meds do (college courses and MCAT), they spend their so-called "free time" doing more things that the ADCOMs want to see.

Therefore, I don't think that ADCOMs are getting an accurate reflection of what people are actually like. Instead of seeing the normal human beings that we are, we like to shun the things that people normally enjoy. It's pretty much considered criminal here on SDN to want to hang out with friends or play games instead of volunteering in the soup kitchen.

And let me ask you this, why is there such a need for people to devote so much time to "productivity" before applying to medical school? If you want to get an extremely high-paying job like investment banking, all you really need is the right summer internship and attend a top university. Otherwise, during the year, people can study hard and play hard too. On the contrary, the SDN mentality pushes pre-meds away from the "play hard" mentality because it's "selfish" and something physicians just don't do. This isn't fair though. Especially considering the kinds of sacrifices that these pre-meds will make when they become medical students. They will sacrifice the best years of their lives to train in and pursue a profession to help humanity. I think that such extreme expected productivity before medical school can cause people to burnout and make them bitter against the process in general. Is the rest of their lives not enough productivity?

Is it really all that necessary to jump through all of these hoops before matriculating to medical school?

And once again, what does it say about a person if they never would have been doing these activities in the first place had they not been applying to medical school? 😕

It is pretty straight forward, I'm not sure why this is so upsetting. People with a track record of productivity in any number of fields, academics, athletics, research, altruism, etc. prove to be more productive medical students, residents and physicians than those who don't spend any of their free time doing other things. Medical schools are looking for individuals who will make good physicians and have the possibility of being a superstar that will make them look good down the road. I don't see what the issue is. If you feel like you are jumping through hoops or you would never do the activities that you did unless forced to by an application, maybe you shouldn't be applying to medical school. While relatively young in my medical training, it is obvious in the hospital who is going to be productive in the long term and those characteristics started long before they got into medical school.

Nobody faults people for taking time to decompress or 'play hard'. Hell, I went rock climbing 3 times this week and am planning on climbing again tomorrow. Granted, the running joke is that I basically trade sleep for climbing time. The issue is in application processes, schools are going to take the people they think have the potential to bring more to the table than simply, "will become a good doctor".

 

[Planes2Doc]

Planes2doc is def one of the coolest dudes on this board IMO. All his posts are on the money.

If a banker snorts cocaine and solicits a prostitute, nobody would bat an eyelash. If a doctor did...well, you saw my thread about my Cancun plans. I'm not even a medical student yet, I've never done drugs or even had sex before, and people are acting like my acceptance should be revoked just for talking about it.

I want to know why SDNers think it's not okay for a physician to ever break a rigid moral code that most monks would be hard-pressed to follow.

Thanks I appreciate the compliment! 😀

You actually bring up an interesting point, at least with prostitution. I used that as an example to talk about the value of altruism for a physician in practice. In that thread I said that when I go to my PCP or any other doctor with a chief complaint, there are many factors that are relevant to addressing it, and many that aren't. For example, a physician's communication skills, medical knowledge, and skill at performing procedures is directly relevant to addressing my chief complaint.

When it comes to my physician's salary, house size, type of vehicle, or what he or she does on the weekends; then these things are completely irrelevant to addressing my chief complaint. So far in my clinical medicine course, we never talked about how our salaries, the things we buy with our salaries, and what we do in our free time affects what happens to the patient when we are taking a history and working out a plan to address their problem.

Therefore, I don't think that the general public is going to care whether their physician volunteers at a free clinic on the weekend, or goes to Vegas and sees escorts. They won't know, and they won't care. It's completely irrelevant and something that doesn't need to be addressed. If I were seeking treatment, I would much rather be treated by a very competent doctor that sees escorts every weekend versus a less competent one that provides free care to the poor at a free clinic.

This is why I will never understand the huge emphasis on volunteering and such for the admissions process. Not only is it irrelevant for most part, but it probably makes things worse for schools that are actually service-oriented. Instead of being able to choose from a group of "genuinely altruistic" albeit rare applicants, they will need to choose from a never ending list of applicants that have all conformed to the expected standards. Now it boils down to who can convey their "genuineness" the best. If someone is a mighty good BSer with a boatload of volunteer hours, they might beat out "genuinely altruistic" applicant that may not have done as many activities or conveys their passion as well. Therefore, the service-oriented school will be stuck with a gunner that couldn't care less about serving the underserved or whatever the school's mission is. The same thing goes with law schools. Certain states require mandatory pro-bono work before people find out the results from the Bar Exam. Sure some firms might like this because it will make them look altruistic, but in reality, forcing someone to do something will not show altruism in any way. Secondly, if I or anyone else were looking for a good lawyer, we would care more about their track record than how much free labor they do for the poor.

This whole EC arms race, or as Circulus Vitios calls it, "pony show," is a piss poor barometer of future physician performance. People are still apparently not satisfied with physicians for some reason. Despite ADCOMs accepting hundreds of students each year that show their intense commitment to helping the underserved or what not, areas are still underserved and people are still unhappy with the way physicians are. Hence, the 2015 MCAT is being implemented.

Maybe if people stopped treating pre-meds like magical morally superior beings (as well as physicians), then we would actually be satisfied with our physicians. If pre-meds flock to soup kitchens or to tutor underprivileged kids during their free time because they genuinely want to and would have done it regardless of applying to school or not, then unicorns are real.

Last time I checked, the Chicago campus bars aren't empty on Friday and Saturday nights because the entire student body is looking for community service opportunities to perform.

If schools want to accept the applicants they actually want, they should start accepting the fact that pre-meds are normal human beings too. Without a huge list of unwritten requirements to do, they can actually get to know people, the real person! 🙂

 

[Planes2Doc]

It is pretty straight forward, I'm not sure why this is so upsetting. People with a track record of productivity in any number of fields, academics, athletics, research, altruism, etc. prove to be more productive medical students, residents and physicians than those who don't spend any of their free time doing other things. Medical schools are looking for individuals who will make good physicians and have the possibility of being a superstar that will make them look good down the road. I don't see what the issue is. If you feel like you are jumping through hoops or you would never do the activities that you did unless forced to by an application, maybe you shouldn't be applying to medical school. While relatively young in my medical training, it is obvious in the hospital who is going to be productive in the long term and those characteristics started long before they got into medical school.

Nobody faults people for taking time to decompress or 'play hard'. Hell, I went rock climbing 3 times this week and am planning on climbing again tomorrow. Granted, the running joke is that I basically trade sleep for climbing time. The issue is in application processes, schools are going to take the people they think have the potential to bring more to the table than simply, "will become a good doctor".

I'm just saying that there are definitely a lot of activities that are expected by ADCOMs. And to address the purpose of this thread, this is why people go so far as to greatly embellish hours or fake them completely. If these activities were otherwise a good idea, then people would enjoy them and flock to do them. I don't think anyone needs to make up any hours that they spent with friends.

I just don't think that putting on a huge facade will necessarily prove anything. What's the purpose of having a "ZERO to Mother Teresa" applicant that had a very impressive load of activities that they started the moment they became pre-med, and then dropped them the moment they were accepted? Would they be any more of a superstar than someone who just plain didn't do the activities?

However, if someone genuinely enjoys doing certain things, then like you said, they can become that highly valued superstar that the schools want. But due to extreme conformity, schools probably can't get a good idea of who is genuine and who isn't.

Whether SDN likes it or not, everyone on here is a Cookie Cutter. In the end, everyone loses in my opinion.

 

[mimelim]

Therefore, I don't think that the general public is going to care whether their physician volunteers at a free clinic on the weekend, or goes to Vegas and sees escorts. They won't know, and they won't care. It's completely irrelevant and something that doesn't need to be addressed. If I were seeking treatment, I would much rather be treated by a very competent doctor that sees escorts every weekend versus a less competent one that provides free care to the poor at a free clinic.

I don't think it should matter, nor ever implied it.

stuff about volunteering

I had zero altruistic based volunteering on my application. The only volunteering I had was from doing things that I would have normally been paid to do. Somehow my ECs were still good enough to make up for my 3.4 GPA for HMS, Hopkins, Wash U, Yale etc. Granted I pretty much only applied to research heavy schools. Volunteering is great if you get something out of it. Otherwise, it is simply another EC.

This whole EC arms race, or as Circulus Vitios calls it, "pony show," is a piss poor barometer of future physician performance. People are still apparently not satisfied with physicians for some reason. Despite ADCOMs accepting hundreds of students each year that show their intense commitment to helping the underserved or what not, areas are still underserved and people are still unhappy with the way physicians are. Hence, the 2015 MCAT is being implemented.

Medical schools are looking for the students that aren't putting on a show. They want the people that this isn't about faking things for them because honest to God, those people do end up making better physicians. However, obviously there aren't enough of those students around to fill the schools. I guess you could say that they settle for filling the rest of their classes with the people that want it the most and "play the game" the best. Lucky for them, there are a lot more applicants than spots available. Sucks that those people get into medical school since it is a bit random for those spots, but at least we will help with this physcian shortage.

 

[HughMyron]

Honestly, I quit every single volunteer activity I was involved with after I got my acceptance.

I quit teaching ESL at the high school, I quit volunteering at the hospital, I quit the school's honor societies, and everything else, and I'm proud of it. The adcoms wanted me to play their game, so I played along.

But now the game's over. U mirin brah?


Sorry, it's just that this process, and all of its flaws, have given me a lot of anger towards adcoms and what they want. I'm sure everyone here can understand.

Medical schools are looking for the students that aren't putting on a show. They want the people that this isn't about faking things for them because honest to God, those people do end up making better physicians. However, obviously there aren't enough of those students around to fill the schools. I guess you could say that they settle for filling the rest of their classes with the people that want it the most and "play the game" the best. Lucky for them, there are a lot more applicants than spots available. Sucks that those people get into medical school since it is a bit random for those spots, but at least we will help with this physcian shortage.

The physician shortage has to do with GME funding, not with medical school applicants.

 

[mimelim]

I'm just saying that there are definitely a lot of activities that are expected by ADCOMs. And to address the purpose of this thread, this is why people go so far as to greatly embellish hours or fake them completely. If these activities were otherwise a good idea, then people would enjoy them and flock to do them. I don't think anyone needs to make up any hours that they spent with friends.

I just don't think that putting on a huge facade will necessarily prove anything. What's the purpose of having a "ZERO to Mother Teresa" applicant that had a very impressive load of activities that they started the moment they became pre-med, and then dropped them the moment they were accepted? Would they be any more of a superstar than someone who just plain didn't do the activities?

However, if someone genuinely enjoys doing certain things, then like you said, they can become that highly valued superstar that the schools want. But due to extreme conformity, schools probably can't get a good idea of who is genuine and who isn't.

Whether SDN likes it or not, everyone on here is a Cookie Cutter. In the end, everyone loses in my opinion.

After reviewing a couple hundred applications I can pick out the genuine and the fake most of the time, when you meet the applicants at interviews or later you can confirm your suspicions when comparing people to their application. You are obviously going to miss many because they are good at hiding things in person, but people tend to drastically overestimate how good they are at doing that.

I also think that there are a lot of activities that pre-meds think are "expected", but really unless you do them well, adcoms don't care about. As for the cookie cutter comment, I didn't know anything about medical school admissions prior to applying, which in retrospect many if not most of my medical school classmates would agree with. I figured out I wanted to go to medical school my Junior year in UG, prepped and took my MCAT and then applied. I simply wrote down what I had been doing for the last 3 years. Again, yes people that bs their application end up getting in, but that in reality is only because there are more spots than top notch applicants that have a clear cut positive trajectory. I certainly don't lose sleep at night over the bsers that got in. If they got the spot over someone else because they played the game better than others, meh. I don't have a better way to separate out those people because they didn't really give me much to work with, so some get lucky and some don't.

 

[mimelim]

Better MCAT scores make better STEP scores. As the study shows, undergraduate GPA is superfluous when compared to the MCAT as a predictor of medical school success.

I don't think there is any evidence of volunteering, genuine or not, correlating with better STEP scores.

Step scores alone aren't enough to land a competitive residency, are not a marker of medical school success and certainly have zero to do with being a good physician. Hence, schools use other criteria for admissions. Not exactly sure what you are trying to say. I have repeatedly stated that volunteering is relatively unimportant, I don't know why you feel the need to repeat it.

The physician shortage has to do with GME funding, not with medical school applicants.

Usually when you quote someone what you write has some relevance to what they wrote. I'm not sure how you can read what I wrote and think that I stated or implied that the physician shortage has anything to do with medical school applicants. If schools only let in people that actually demonstrated that they would become excellent physicians and did their ECs because thats just what they do, we would not have enough medical students to fill our residencies.

 

[HughMyron]

Step scores alone aren't enough to land a competitive residency, are not a marker of medical school success and certainly have zero to do with being a good physician. Hence, schools use other criteria for admissions. Not exactly sure what you are trying to say. I have repeatedly stated that volunteering is relatively unimportant, I don't know why you feel the need to repeat it.



Usually when you quote someone what you write has some relevance to what they wrote. I'm not sure how you can read what I wrote and think that I stated or implied that the physician shortage has anything to do with medical school applicants. If schools only let in people that actually demonstrated that they would become excellent physicians and did their ECs because thats just what they do, we would not have enough medical students to fill our residencies.

All right, I misread what you were saying, sry. I thought you were implying that genuine interest in volunteering makes a better physician, and I don't know much about physicians, but given that I don't have any genuine interest in volunteering...

 

[circulus vitios]

It is obvious who is here 5am to 7pm every day and punches out. As you said, most people are that way, it is in most people's nature. Medical schools nor residencies will never be able to fill themselves with people who don't think that way. There just aren't enough. But that doesn't mean they won't try.

Have "they" killed any patients due to undeniable negligence? Probably not, right? If so, what's your reward for going above and beyond the reasonable baseline, other than smugness?

 

[mimelim]

Have "they" killed any patients due to undeniable negligence? Probably not, right? If so, what's your reward for going above and beyond the reasonable baseline, other than smugness?

How nice to live in such a simplistic world where the only criteria for being a good doctor is not killing your patients because of incompetents. When you spend time in the hospital, you can see the differences between practicing attendings. There are style differences, but there are non-academic/knowledge differences too. Wasteful spending, poorer outcomes, longer hospital stays just to name a few.

 

[cuculici1]

I think there are several things to take from this thread. First of all, there is a reason mimelim interviewed at essentially every school he applied to, and I think it's important to hear out his opinions. Basically what he's trying to say is that just because you manage to bs your way into med school doesn't mean you're necessarily good to go. I'd tend to agree with this. I think that, as with any profession, character is an important component to a career in medicine. Thus, those that lack a specific mindset will probably have a harder time than some of the more altruistic physicians who find it easier to devote their time to improving the health of their patients. Basically what mimelim is trying to say is that those physicians that end up truly excelling will go above and beyond the minimum requirements in general. This doesn't mean that pursuing the alternate route will result in failure, or that having other interests is bad. But I think I'd tend to agree with the fact that those who tend to fake their way through the process will end up displaying a certain degree of difficulty in the field. Additionally, I think it is also important to note that being a workaholic is not a requirement in this profession either (despite a variety of posts insinuating this on SDN).

 

[NickNaylor]

I never said that it would make you a poor resident or physician. I am in no way implying that people should look like they don't take personal time to simply do nothing. My point is that schools are looking for people who are going to at a minimum be a good doctor. They are also on the lookout for the capacity to do more than that. Maybe I have a colored perspective based on what I went into and where I applied for residency. It is painfully obvious who did ECs for the sake of doing them and who did those things because that is just what they do.

I can not claim that this is how all residencies are. But I can tell you that at mine...

I work 80 hours a week, every week. We have in-service exams that we must score higher than 50th percentile on or we lose our spot in the program which are on par with the difficulty and scope of Step 1. We have mandatory publication requirements annually. Never mind that if you want to be great technically, you have to spend hours every week working outside of the OR. To be a 'decent' resident, you have to show up and work 80 hours a week here. If you want to be more than that, it is all about what you do with your time when you clock out after 80 hours. Personally, I spend round about 100-110 hours a week between clinical duties, studying, research and in the lab working on suturing anastamoses, getting exposure, understanding different stent delivery or filter delivery systems etc.

It is obvious who is here 5am to 7pm every day and punches out. As you said, most people are that way, it is in most people's nature. Medical schools nor residencies will never be able to fill themselves with people who don't think that way. There just aren't enough. But that doesn't mean they won't try.

I think you are probably the exception though. IIRC you're in vascular surgery, which by all accounts is extremely competitive. The kind of people that are probably even considering fields like that are likely going to have a more intense affect than the average Joe. Same goes with other similar fields as well.

On the whole I agree with what you said though. I totally believe that you can tell a difference between the "clock punchers" and those that are genuinely invested in their vocation. You can already tell a difference in medical school in some cases.

(sent from my phone)

 

[circulus vitios]

How nice to live in such a simplistic world where the only criteria for being a good doctor is not killing your patients because of incompetents. When you spend time in the hospital, you can see the differences between practicing attendings. There are style differences, but there are non-academic/knowledge differences too. Wasteful spending, poorer outcomes, longer hospital stays just to name a few.

And your view that "more hours in the hospital = better doctor, more efficient spending, better outcomes, shorter hospital stays" isn't black and white?

 

[mimelim]

And your view that "more hours in the hospital = better doctor, more efficient spending, better outcomes, shorter hospital stays" isn't black and white?

Link to where I claimed anything in your post.

 

[Planes2Doc]

I think you are probably the exception though. IIRC you're in vascular surgery, which by all accounts is extremely competitive. The kind of people that are probably even considering fields like that are likely going to have a more intense affect than the average Joe. Same goes with other similar fields as well.

On the whole I agree with what you said though. I totally believe that you can tell a difference between the "clock punchers" and those that are genuinely invested in their vocation. You can already tell a difference in medical school in some cases.

(sent from my phone)

The funny thing is that this was the major difference between the first and second airlines that I worked for. At the first one, there was a hidden requirement that you would always stay for some obscene amount of time. A lot of people were unhappy, and there was a lot of turnover in the department.

On the other hand, at the second airline, most people in there worked their eight hours and left. Things were far less uptight and people were happier.

When it came to the overall performance of the airline and the financials, the second company I worked for was superior in every respect. Employees were also many times happier.

I sense the same thing happens in the medical world. I didn't understand why people valued lifestyle specialties so much until I started my first year of medical school. It's really something else to never see your family, friends, or do the things you once enjoyed. I realize that some physicians might take great pride and be leaders at the forefront of medicine, but that isn't for everyone. Some physicians might end up being extremely unhappy and burn out.

It's clearly not for everyone, and definitely not a black and white issue.

 

[HughMyron]

Adding on to that, I think it's wrong to shame people by calling them things like "clock punchers." You don't see people shaming neurosurgeons as "money grubbing workaholics," do you?