DO: name change?

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I say if you can teach 2 million children to memorize by sight the name of some purple gay puppet called TinkyWinky, or a yellow crustacean named Squarepants, you can probably teach adults to know what a DO is!!!
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Originally posted by PACtoDOC
I say if you can teach 2 million children to memorize by sight the name of some purple gay puppet called TinkyWinky, or a yellow crustacean named Squarepants, you can probably teach adults to know what a DO is!!!
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I thought Squarepants was a sponge? Then again, the only TV I watch is Alias...go figure :)

Good points, PAC.
 
Sponge Bob is a sponge. And not just any sponge, mind you - he is the sponge of all time!
 
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Mr. Crabs, on the other hand, is a crustacean.
 
Here's an example of how poorly even the media understands osteopathic medicine:

These excerpts are from articles which appeared in newspapers local to the area in which LECOM is opening their new school.

"[Students will] be able to choose from a curriculum of family medicine, internal medicine, pediatrics, and obstetrics and gynecology."

"The school for osteopaths - those who would diagnose and treat medical problems affecting the muscles and bones - plans to open the campus in September 2004"
 
Can anyone think of an instance where a group of professionals has changed the title by which they are refered?
 
Bottom line: Skill level is not an issue. Recognition is the issue at debate.

If you want to be a top notch physician, letters don't matter - DO/MD.

If you want to be easily recognized as a top notch physician, currently in this country by the masses - the letters D and O are lacking.

If the degree was YoungFaithful M.D.O., recognition from the public would not be an issue. I will be proud of my osteopathic education. As a patient why not go to someone with the training of an MD plus OMM and other extra tools? There is no reason. I think M.D.O. would more accurately portray our education to the public.

I do not understand why people oppose the name change. What negativity would come out of M.D.O.?? I think osteopathic medicine would grow by leaps and bounds in the first 5 years of the change than it has in the last >100 it has been around.

Those who want to change the name often fit into one of the following categories: (and I can just imagine the **** I am going to get for this...).
1. They feel another title will earn them more respect
2. They don't want to take the time to educate people about osteopathy
3. They just like to complain
4. They wish they went to M.D. school
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I do not support the change because I want to be an MD or like to complain. I do not mind educating people on osteopathy and will still be necessary and crucial after the name change.
 
I brought this issue to public forum for three reasons:

1. I heard grumblings which invoked the ruminating on my behalf.
2. I contacted the AOA, who encouraged me to encourage others to express themselves to the AOA.
3. I realized a new phenomena exists in the health care field today that did not exist 20 years ago: that of the loose usage of the words physician anddoctor. For instance, Chiropractors and herbalists of different varieties call themselves those names. The titles are misleading and dangerous, particularly, for the DO, whose license is Doctor of Ostepathic Medicine, but whose title is DO.

DISCLAIMER: Nowhere in my presentation, do I believe that I am a sell-out, or an unhappy DO student. Nor do I believe that I ashamed of my calling and the field I will one day represent. I call attention to the issues I believe are pertinent and then implore my fellow students to contact their local representatives.
 
Instead of changing the name of the degree, why not have the AOA raise 300 million bucks over the next umpteen years and erect a monumental modern beautiful 600 bed hospital in downtown Chicago/Detroit/big midwest city. Have assloads of MD and DO students rotate there. Hows that for propaganda...but nope, that'll never happen. It would be effective however.

I'll just work my tail off at my job and increase awarness of the degree through my actions as a bad ass yet down to earth doc.
 
dood... mdo? i dunno... seems like uhh... d-jd or something like that... where... its not really a jd, its a distance jd.. u know?? its not as good...

why not just be a md? "Medical Doctor" is what we all are. are allyopaths called DA s ??? no... why DO ?? we are MDs just like the allopaths, and i thought that congress even approved the "md" degree to be given out by osteopathic schools? if this is so, why are the schools not doing that??

whenever someone asks me what a DO is, i tell them. then they ask what D.O. stand for. Doctor of Osteopathy. well... so, not a real doc of medicine right?? see that is why DO is not catching on, because it IS confusing and doesnt lend itself to make sense of what it is like MD does. MD = Medical Doctor a.k.a. Doctor of Medicine. DO = Osteopathic Doctor a.k.a. Doctor of Osteopathy.

if you go with the MDO, then it is like im a Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine only, not ALL Medicine. The Osteopathic qualifier there appears as a limiter.

if you really wanted to do this right, then why not go with mbbs for both groups?? what is a JD from Oxford vs a JD from Stanford?? a JD. but you are recognised by those in the profession for what school you came from to see what type of Law you understand. likewise, if you came from an osteopathic school vs an allopathic school, ppl would be like, ohh so you know manipulation too??

if the name change never occurs, i could careless. im not doing this to impress people. i do think that "MD" would be easier for the typical layperson to understand. i would prefer an osteopathic school over an allopathic school any day. i intend on becoming a generalist. i want to learn more, and learn some about as many subjects as i can and understand how they all fit together as well i possiblly can. that, IMHO, is instruction best taught at an osteopathic school.

additionally, there ALREADY ARE D.O.'s in the world. and those DO's are not MD's like we are, they are JUST D.O.'s. furthermore, they are taught MORE in the osteopathic way than WE ARE! ask them, they think we are MD's with extra DO knowledge... that is because WE ARE!!!
 
also i would just like to say, osteopathy in the USA here is very young really. most of the ppl in the higher up positions are the older DO's who are much more set on their ways, but really this is a young group. as such, if you see a way to better it, then go for it, you are much more likely to influence it than you could ever hope in allyopathy...
 
The problem is that DO (doctor of osteopathy) is not DO (doctor of osteopathic medicine).

In Europe, there are practicing DO's but they are not licensed physicians, they are advanced degree physical therapists with extensive training in AT Still's principles.

In the US, a DO is a physician....
 
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You know, I was just thinking...

My real name is kind of hard to pronounce and it's really a name nobody recognizes. Maybe instead of doing something with my life and keeping my name, I can just continue being a nobody but change my name to something people will instantly recognize.

How about Michael Jordano? Or Michaelangelo Jordan?

Perhaps Billy Clinton? How about Mahatma Ghandul?

You know, a name that kind of sounds like another famous name but not quite? Pretty much like MD-O...Get the idea? Help me out! I'm sick and tired of telling people who I am!

(Hmmm...maybe Ronald Trump....)
 
Gio,

I respect the hell out of what you are saying!! I am with you on wanting to be a DO, but I am also with you on wanting people to understand what we do. You are right on the money and screw anyone on this forum who talks down to you for having good ideas.
 
well, what DO you think should be done? leave it as DO ?? i guess it might be ok... i dunno.... guess its always easy to complain... still it kinda sucks that DA's get to be called MD's and DO's have to stay as DO's .... oh well... just another colorful part of life....
 
Originally posted by PACtoDOC
Gio,

I respect the hell out of what you are saying!! I am with you on wanting to be a DO, but I am also with you on wanting people to understand what we do.
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It's not that people don't understand what DO's do. It's that people have fragile egos and have a hunger for recognition. Someone who has a DO degree or is going to DO school went to a cocktail party, was asked "what do you do for a living?", answered "I'm a DO student" and people didn't immediately drop to their knees in awe and respect. So now they want their title changed to MD-O or MD-squared or MD-MD-I'm-like-an-MD-dammit!

That's ridiculous. There's so much to worry about (lack of productive research in DO schools, not enough quality osteopathic residency spots...) but people are whining about the fact that the title "DO" doesn't quite sound like the title "MD."

My suggestions:

- MDo (with a tiny little "o" so that people will hopefully mistake you for an MD).
- MDx2 (because DO's learn everything MD's learn and more)
- MDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMD (self-explanatory)
- MD/DO (self-explanatory)
- oMD
- MoDo (make the "o's" tiny so they look like periods)
- MD (let's be honest...many DO students would love this one)
- MGD (Hmmm...Medical God Doctor and Miller Genuine Draft!)
 
You know, I was just thinking...

My real name is kind of hard to pronounce and it's really a name nobody recognizes. Maybe instead of doing something with my life and keeping my name, I can just continue being a nobody but change my name to something people will instantly recognize.

How about Michael Jordano? Or Michaelangelo Jordan?

Perhaps Billy Clinton? How about Mahatma Ghandul?

You know, a name that kind of sounds like another famous name but not quite? Pretty much like MD-O...Get the idea? Help me out! I'm sick and tired of telling people who I am!

(Hmmm...maybe Ronald Trump....)

That's a no-brainer, Shinken. People have been doing that for hundreds of years.
 
There actually is a name confusion of sorts:

DO (doctor of osteopathy) is the same title as DO (doctor of osteopathic medicine).

In Europe, there are practicing DO's but they are not licensed physicians, they are advanced degree physical therapists with extensive training in AT Still's principles.

In the US, a DO is a fully licensed physician, legally allowed to perscribe Rx...


It has nothing to do with a frail ego.
 
why not just be a md? "Medical Doctor" is what we all are. are allyopaths called DA s ??? no... why DO ?? we are MDs just like the allopaths, and i thought that congress even approved the "md" degree to be given out by osteopathic schools? if this is so, why are the schools not doing that??

I really don't care about explaining what a DO is, I know I will be a physician and when someone does ask me that's exactly what I will say, I'm a physician that believes in the osteopathic principles, and then of course I will have to go into what they are... but this post really does make a lot of sense to me as to why "DA"s get to us MD as apposed to DO s.
 
I said it before but I will reiiterate it. Changing it to MD-O makes no sense as there are already OMDs and DMDs. The public will just be confused as they are now with the title of DO.

We should either keep it at DO or change it to MD. As in the history of CA, 2000 DOs purchased a MD for $65 when the DO and MD CA associations merged. In the distant future, I wouldn't be surprised if such a merger would occur on a national level. However, I think DOs have learned from the debacle in CA and would prevent that from occuring.
 
i agree slickness... i didnt realize all the stuff that was going on back then... wow... lets just stay with DO... :p
 
i didnt realize all the stuff that was going on back then... wow... lets just stay with DO... :p
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Very intelligent comment.


Has anyone heard of an RN? registered nurse.

Has anyone heard of an RN.C.? registered nurse certified in some speciality such as geriatrics.

Now is that confusing as hell? I'm sure it is to some of you.

MD is a medical doctor

M.D.O. is a medical doctor with special osteopathic training.


Sounds like a golden ticket to me.

Time to meet the oompa loopas... :thumbup:
 
but a RNC started the same as a RN. the rnc had to go on to additional stuff to get the certification right???

going by your logic, shouldnt an allopath be called MD-A ?? oh wait they are not 'certified' in something special, but wait, neither is a DO... hmmm... so MD-O doesnt work because you are not 'certified' in omm... you can do it... but not certified... cant an allopath do omm ??? why yes they can. dont SOME allopathic schools teach a more generalized or holistic approach than classical allopathy?? why yes they do... dang now we are getting into that gray area... where do we separate... hmmm .... yea.....

osteopaths do not start out the same as allopaths. emphasis is not the same. but certification... yes... exactly the same. maybe if congress mandated some law that allopaths actually had to have formalized training in omm or other stuff to do that... then there ya go... we should get official additional certifications.

case in point, MDs and DOs are allowed to do acupuncture. im sure you realize that that is not typical to all schools to learn about that thouroghly, and that also there are specific schools that focus on eastern medical treatments like acupuncture ONLY. they get special certifications in that. so, even though a typical MD/DO does not get much if any formal training in it, they still are allowed by law to practice it. this is insane even to the point that in some states, even if you have formal training in it, you are still not allowed to practice unless you are working under a doctors watch(who may very well have no idea what you are doing anyways).....

anyways... according to law, we do not have a special certification that sets us apart from allopaths. so your idea of md-o on the basis that we have special certifications is unfounded in the courts.... if you lobby this point, and changes are made... then maybe you ae getting somewhere........................
 
good analogy with the whole nurse thing. I couldn't even come close to telling you what letter nurses are (RN, PRN, etc) allowed to do what or have what qualifications, they tell me they're a nurse that's good enough for me.

I've never EVER heard a nurse complain about people getting them confused with other types of nurses or having a big problem with the stupid measley letters after their name.

I simply can not believe how important a title is to you guys, what are you all in this for anyway? Recognition? I'll eat my hat if you ever have trouble getting a patient base simply because you're confusing people with those two little letters after your name.

You guys are probably the same guys that run around the community making sure everyone around you knows you're a physician with a purpose- so they bow down to you.

People ask you what you are, you are a physician, plain and simple.

be proud, study hard and let actions do the talking. Hell yes this is a very young profession compared to allopathic medicine and I think a lot of people are scared DO's won't receive full recognition in their lifetime- NEWSFLASH we're not going to see it in our lifetime. If you long to be on that side of the fence, thought of as one of them and not one of your own, they go- don't stick around here and muck up our profession. We're not hurting anymore than any other occupation in this country right now. I'm not touching that political mess with a ten foot pole though...

this thread (and the other) is pretty sad guys...

without knowing too much about the law, I'd have to totally disagree with cooldreams about certification. A DO's "scope of practice" is defined differently than allopaths, I'm almost positive a DO can get in serious legal trouble for using manipulations while doing a allopathic residency or after becoming allopathically board certified as a DO. That means they're NOT certified to practice under the scope of osteopathy, they have to stick to the allopathic speciality type to which that are qualified and certified. Correct?
 
Originally posted by H0mersimps0n

without knowing too much about the law, I'd have to totally disagree with cooldreams about certification. A DO's "scope of practice" is defined differently than allopaths, I'm almost positive a DO can get in serious legal trouble for using manipulations while doing a allopathic residency or after becoming allopathically board certified as a DO. That means they're NOT certified to practice under the scope of osteopathy, they have to stick to the allopathic speciality type to which that are qualified and certified. Correct?
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im almost positive you're wrong :)

n e who knows for sure???? i mean.. going to an allopath or osteopath res... you are still an osteopath. right? that is your degree name. right? so how does your scope change?

addditionally i thought that congress allowed DO schools to award the MD degree... that should right there eliminate all confusion correct??

furthermore, i thought that allopaths were allowed to do omm. is this not correct???

let me know if im wrong guys, but im pretty sure this is the way it is... there are no restrictions like what you are saying....

the only restriction i know of is that an allopath cannot advertise as an osteopath and visa versa....
 
IN FACT! if you read some of that california law stuff that slickness posted as sticky... you will see that it is ILLEGAL to discriminate:

"By the end of 1974, 664 new licenses to practice osteopathic medicine in California had been granted. Since then, the osteopathic medical profession has steadily grown and developed throughout the state. In the past quarter century, OPSC has sponsored over 25 pieces of legislation to recognize and protect osteopathic physicians including state law making it illegal to discriminate against D.O.s in any professional or medical manner."

hmm i wonder how that would work on differentiating the two... hmmmmmmmmmm
 
man, that law was to prevent DO's from being forced to convert their degree's to MD on paper so they could practice in CA and destroy our profession. Old hat.

Think about it this way, could a board certified cardiologist perform a hysterectomy? No, out of his scope of practice. Well, could a MD board certified cardiologist physician with a DO degree do the manipulations a DO board certified FP with a DO degree?

DO's can do MD residencies, MD's can't do DO residencies, not even if they wanted to. To me, this means we can do what they can, but they aren't capable of practicing both kinds of medicine.

I know Direwolf is sitting back in his platium-lined leather chair staring at his low 20's MCAT score thinking to himself- what an idiot- we're all MD's and we know it, what's his problem. Sorry bud, still not convinced this is a profession of wannabe's just yet.
 
Originally posted by H0mersimps0n
man, that law was to prevent DO's from being forced to convert their degree's to MD on paper so they could practice in CA and destroy our profession. Old hat.

Think about it this way, could a board certified cardiologist perform a hysterectomy? No, out of his scope of practice. Well, could a MD board certified cardiologist physician with a DO degree do the manipulations a DO board certified FP with a DO degree?

DO's can do MD residencies, MD's can't do DO residencies, not even if they wanted to.
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"could a board certified cardiologist perform a hysterectomy?" - yes... but since not board certified, i dont think they can get insurance... so......

"could a MD board certified cardiologist physician with a DO degree do the manipulations a DO board certified FP with a DO degree?" yes. and they DO Do them all the time....

"DO's can do MD residencies, MD's can't do DO residencies, not even if they wanted to." true... but reasons?? not sure why... BECAUSE - allopaths ARE ALLOWED TO DO OMM PROCEDURES...... guess since the AOA runs the comlex, they can say who can and cannot take the comlex, and since osteopathic res require comlex, that excludes allopaths... hmmmmmmm
 
you post to quickly. I like to post and edit for a while... sheesh
 
Originally posted by cooldreams
"could a board certified cardiologist perform a hysterectomy?" - yes... but since not board certified, i dont think they can get insurance... so......
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....... so..... *FLASHING LIGHTS* IT'S NOT "LEGAL"

never a lawyer around when you truly need one. Who has info on scope of practice as it pertains to osteopathic manipulations. I'm dying to know.
 
Originally posted by H0mersimps0n
you post to quickly. I like to post and edit for a while... sheesh
Click to expand...

lol sorry :p
 
Originally posted by H0mersimps0n
....... so..... *FLASHING LIGHTS* IT'S NOT "LEGAL"

never a lawyer around when you truly need one. Who has info on scope of practice as it pertains to osteopathic manipulations. I'm dying to know.
Click to expand...

but you dont have to have insurance to practice medicine... like you have to have to drive a car :p
 
i think the ppl who are in the know... i.e. not me, are no longer lurkin the boards... so... eh... find out later... i would like to know how this all REALLY works though.... oh well....
 
There are actually probably as many MD's doing manip as DO's, and billing for it legally. In fact, the residency I am most interested in is an MD residency run by an MD who calls himself a DO wannabe. He teaches manip and recruits heavily at DO schools.
 
thx for the help pactodoc

ok so there ya go, mds can and do do the omm, now what about doing specialties outside of your specialty??

i.e. , can a fp do surgery?? im pretty sure the answer is yes... but... does n e 1 kno for sure??..
 
If the degree was YoungFaithful M.D.O., recognition from the public would not be an issue. I will be proud of my osteopathic education.
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Cmudan, why are you getting me involved in this??
 
To all the DOs and DOs to be that want the name change....

I have questions... Why did you decide to practice medicine? Was it to treat, heal, and educate patients? Will you do this any better or any differently if your degree changes to an MDO? Will your job description change? Just curious.
 
THANK YOU, my alias.

I said the same thing a few pages back. let's get a grip here. You guys are freaking out over something that you will likely never change and will not affect your job or how you do it, how much money you make, or your happiness in life.

Let's talk about something that WILL change your life and how you do your job, like the crisis in the availability of healthcare to the poor and uninsured, pharmaceutical companies' criminally-overpriced drugs in our country, and the astronomical rise in the cost of medical education....just to name a few....
 
Unfortunitly any name other then M.D. will be unknown to the general public and will need explaining. The only ones who will know the difference are the ones who already know what D.O. stands for in the first place. It's a matter of wanting to be asked "What's a D.O." or "What's an M.D.-O." The answer will always be the same. The solution maybe lies in continuing to build a solid reputation, advertising, and aggressive, innovative leadership within the AOA.
 
You're not getting the MD degree unless you agree to give up control of your DO schools to the AMA/LCME/ACGME.

The AOA will never allow that, no association would just voluntarily hand over power to another association. It would spell the end of DOs as a separate group from MDs.

If you want the MD title, you'll have to give up control of your schools. The MD associations would love to make that tradeoff.
 
not that i am wanting to get the title of MD anymore, but i dont see how the AOA would HAVE to give up the schools to the ama. congress allowed the AOA schools to give the MD degree just as the AMA schools are allowed. we are all medical docs, but the ama are allopaths, and the aoa are osteopaths... both complete physicians...
 
Everyone keeps harping on the AOA's failure to advertise what a DO is, but shouldn't the osteopaths take some responsibility as well. I'd say more people knew what DOs were before the 1970's than they do today because of the shift in the scope of practice. Before DOs had full practice rights, people knew what Osteopaths did, they manipulated (this is why Osteopath is a house hold name in Europe). With the coming of the 1970's and the DO's pushing so hard for full practice rights, most kind of swept their manipulation under the carpet, along with the letters DO. So now instead of Joe Smith, Osteopath; it was Dr. Joe Smith with no explanation as to what kind of doctor. Now with the Neo-Osteopathy movement where manipulation is coming back into style, people are like, "what's a DO? what's an Osteopath?" The "Lost Generation" hid it and now we have to reeducation people on what we are all about. Most of the AOA leadership is from this Lost Generation and they don't know how to manipulate anyway except for some crappy non specific HVLA and what good does that do; not a thing but make people think we are chiropractors! They pay it good lip service because it's the only thing keeping us seperate; this way they keep their power.
 
Originally posted by cooldreams

not that i am wanting to get the title of MD anymore, but i dont see how the AOA would HAVE to give up the schools to the ama. congress allowed the AOA schools to give the MD degree just as the AMA schools are allowed. we are all medical docs, but the ama are allopaths, and the aoa are osteopaths... both complete physicians...
Click to expand...

why not just be a md? "Medical Doctor" is what we all are. are allyopaths called DA s ??? no... why DO ?? we are MDs just like the allopaths, and i thought that congress even approved the "md" degree to be given out by osteopathic schools? if this is so, why are the schools not doing that??
Click to expand...


Congress has nothing to do with it. The dept of education recognizes the LCME as the official arbiter of which schools can grant MD degrees.

LCME has nothing to do with DO schools.

Like I said, the LCME/AMA would love to grant MDs to DO schools, but it would only come about if the AOA ceased to exist and gave up all control of the schools and accreditation process to the LCME.

I can tell that not having the MD really bothers you. Perhaps you should have thought about your decision carefully before using the DO school as a backup to MD programs.
 
Before DOs had full practice rights, people knew what Osteopaths did, they manipulated (this is why Osteopath is a house hold name in Europe).


HELLO... is there anybody out there?


In the US, a DO is a physician....

A DO in Europe (doctor of osteopathy) is not DO (doctor of osteopathic medicine). Never has been.

In Europe, there are practicing DO's but they are not licensed physicians, they are advanced degree physical therapists with extensive training in AT Still's principles.

When you tell euro friends and family that you are going to a DO medical school they have no idea what you are talking about!
 
HELLO? What a nice person you are. You can sure bash me, but at least I know my history son. DO's in America have not always been "Full" physicians (if you call giving poison a full physician). US DO's used to only do manipulation, OB, and sometime a little cutting. If you remember, European Osteopathy was started by the Littlejohns who were professors at ASO. So in the beginning, US Osteopathy and European Osteopathy were pretty much the same. The difference is that US Osteopaths wanted to incorporate medicine into their practice and European DOs did not. So the US DOs diminished their OPP in the 60's and 70's so that they would be more "impressive" to legislators. Thus the Lost Generation, and the supression of the "bad words" Osteopathy, Still, DO..etc... Now that some physicians are doing manipulation again and students are proud to use their letters/title of Osteopath, people are asking, "What's that?" If docs would start acting like Osteopaths and not MD then the people would learn real quick who we are and the AOA could spend their money elsewhere.

Also my friend, the US degree DO does not stand for Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine, it stands for Doctor of Osteopathy. The European DO stands for Diplomate of Osteopathy (AT Still original term).

To me Osteopathic Medicine is kinda of a bad term because there is nothing Osteopathic about Medicine. I think really our schools should be called College of Osteopathy and Medicine because that's more like what it really is. But that's another subject for MR. HELLO IS ANYONE OUT THERE to flame me on. lol
 
Why don't you all vote in the poll to change or not to change it? Please give this poor soul some clue such as a majority wisdom to follow. I myself was the first one to vote for MD-O. The O is just to honor Dr. Still and his appropriate action at the right time. But it seems to me that his followers have not really made much progress since. Without a significant difference in medical practice from their MD counterparts nowadays, it is time to repatriate. The incidence is quite different from extinction.
 
Southpaw,

If you caught my reference to Pink Floyd, I don't think you would be so offended - so don't feel fried unless you really like barbeque.

I am talking CURRENT HISTORY here. I don't get paid to write history essays on SDN. And it's not like osteopathy wasn't historically linked to medicine - Still was doctor.

I do choose to disagree with some of your points (poison? Docs acting like osteopaths and not MD's? ) because I don't know where you are coming from....

But a Diplomate degree in Europe is the Doctorate eq. here (for the sake of simplicity I didn't want to push my euro-knowlege down everyone's throat) and many of the other posters I have read refer to the DO degree as Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine, so I chose common vernacular.
 
I could be wrong, but I believe the DO degree has been officially changed to Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine. Just within the last couple of years this change took effect.
 
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