DO Neurosurgeon

[MaximusD]

It already has (thank God) for the most part.

I don't know if it has almost disappeared. You have new DO schools opening in multiples each year. Each of those schools has an OMM department and makes its students learn the "osteopathic principles". Whether these translate into real-world differences between DOs and MDs remains to be seen by me. As I've said before, I have no problem in the separation itself, but those who perpetuate the myth that one side has more to offer is a bit upsetting.

If you've gotten into a well-established US MD or DO program, it is most-likely your efforts and personality that is going to determine the quality of medicine with which you practice.

I'd also like to once again ask that current DO students please expound upon differences he or she has seen during rotations concerning the quality and preparedness of osteopathic vs. allopathic students. Are there large-scale differences in technique? None of us can be a good gauge of QUALITY, but differeing modalities of treatment, if they exist, would be interesting to think about or discuss.

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[Dr JPH]

I know my education is as good as, if not better, than the allopathic education that other Philadelphia medical students recieve. I work with these students on a daily basis.

Whats different about it? Well, OMT for one. Despite what some of you believe OMT is alive and well in the DO community. Do most DOs use OMT in their practice? Nope. But when I am post call and my neck hurts from the callroom bed, or my back hurts from standing in the OR all day...I know I have a bunch of colleagues who can help me out. My MD colleagues just say "yeah...you just need to get used to it."

No you dont. See a DO. No reason you need to "get used to it."

So do I feel that I got a better education? Yes I do. And I am reminded of that all the time when I am the medical student who the attendings page when its time to round.

 

[MaximusD]

I know my education is as good as, if not better, than the allopathic education that other Philadelphia medical students recieve. I work with these students on a daily basis.

Whats different about it? Well, OMT for one. Despite what some of you believe OMT is alive and well in the DO community. Do most DOs use OMT in their practice? Nope. But when I am post call and my neck hurts from the callroom bed, or my back hurts from standing in the OR all day...I know I have a bunch of colleagues who can help me out. My MD colleagues just say "yeah...you just need to get used to it."

No you dont. See a DO. No reason you need to "get used to it."

So do I feel that I got a better education? Yes I do. And I am reminded of that all the time when I am the medical student who the attendings page when its time to round.

You matched gen-surg it could also be because you're becoming a great physician and they see that quality in you.

Not that I'm trying to negate your point, just a thought. I am told that PCOM surpasses quite a few MD schools in terms of quality. Glad to see that your experience confirms (or since we're scientists, "lends support to") this.

And I'm glad that OMM won't be a waste of my time as many in this forum suggest.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

See a DO.

Or a massage therapist or a physical therapist......

 

[DropkickMurphy]

You matched gen-surg it could also be because you're becoming a great physician and they see that quality in you

I was thinking the same thing. I think it probably has more to do with the fact that JP is one of the sharpest people on SDN, more than the fact he's a DO or a PCOM graduate.

 

[Dr JPH]

Or a massage therapist or a physical therapist......

Massage therapist...sure, if my back pain is due to a tight muscle.

Physical therapist can help me if my pain is from a strain/sprain, and also coach me on proper body mechanics.

And I could always see a chiropractor if my pain is due to an articular problem.

But why would I when I can see a DO who has the training to fix any and all of those problems...because the pain is likely a combination of all the above. Not only that, what if there is something else going on?

A chiropractor will crack my back twice a week for the rest of my life and never question "hey...why does this guys back pain keep coming back." A Physical therapist will see me as long as the physician keeps writing prescriptions. And a massage therapist will see me as long as I pay the money.

But a DO, or any physician presented with an ongoing problem, will look for an etiology. Is it really muscular? is it really articular?

I have had patients come to my office with all sorts of complaints only to diagnose non-muscoloskeletal etiologies. UTI, cholelithiasis, crohns, multiple myeloma, etc.

Try finding a chiropractor, massage therapist or physical therapist who can do that.

I dont bring my car to Jiffy Lube for an oil change, Midas for brakes and Meineke for a muffler. I go right to the Volvo dealership because they can do all 3 AND will be able to diagnose any other problems that my be going on at the same time.

No thanks. I will keep seeing my DO. I dont trust my car with gimicky repair shops and I dont trust my body with midlevel or non-physician practioners.

 

[drusso]

Massage therapist...sure, if my back pain is due to a tight muscle.

Physical therapist can help me if my pain is from a strain/sprain, and also coach me on proper body mechanics.

And I could always see a chiropractor if my pain is due to an articular problem.

But why would I when I can see a DO who has the training to fix any and all of those problems...because the pain is likely a combination of all the above. Not only that, what if there is something else going on?

A chiropractor will crack my back twice a week for the rest of my life and never question "hey...why does this guys back pain keep coming back." A Physical therapist will see me as long as the physician keeps writing prescriptions. And a massage therapist will see me as long as I pay the money.

But a DO, or any physician presented with an ongoing problem, will look for an etiology. Is it really muscular? is it really articular?

I have had patients come to my office with all sorts of complaints only to diagnose non-muscoloskeletal etiologies. UTI, cholelithiasis, crohns, multiple myeloma, etc.

Try finding a chiropractor, massage therapist or physical therapist who can do that.

I dont bring my car to Jiffy Lube for an oil change, Midas for brakes and Meineke for a muffler. I go right to the Volvo dealership because they can do all 3 AND will be able to diagnose any other problems that my be going on at the same time.

No thanks. I will keep seeing my DO. I dont trust my car with gimicky repair shops and I dont trust my body with midlevel or non-physician practioners.

Great post, JP.

It's interesting to watch DO students and DO applicants go through "Stages of Acceptance" about their medical degree: Anger, Denial, Bargaining, Acceptance.

With all the information available about osteopathic medicine these day, I don't understand why people are so cognitively inflexible about the idea that there can two separate medical degrees that qualify someone to do the same job. I've made the point a number of times that the DO and MD degrees are analagous in the evolutionary sense of the word!

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=4571384&postcount=37

Anyway, good luck. Keep your hand in the fire.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

I've made the point a number of times that the DO and MD degrees are analagous in the evolutionary sense of the word!

So have I. That's why I support combining them into a single degree and making OMM an option.

 

[MaximusD]

Massage therapist...sure, if my back pain is due to a tight muscle.

Physical therapist can help me if my pain is from a strain/sprain, and also coach me on proper body mechanics.

And I could always see a chiropractor if my pain is due to an articular problem.

But why would I when I can see a DO who has the training to fix any and all of those problems...because the pain is likely a combination of all the above. Not only that, what if there is something else going on?

A chiropractor will crack my back twice a week for the rest of my life and never question "hey...why does this guys back pain keep coming back." A Physical therapist will see me as long as the physician keeps writing prescriptions. And a massage therapist will see me as long as I pay the money.

But a DO, or any physician presented with an ongoing problem, will look for an etiology. Is it really muscular? is it really articular?

I have had patients come to my office with all sorts of complaints only to diagnose non-muscoloskeletal etiologies. UTI, cholelithiasis, crohns, multiple myeloma, etc.

Try finding a chiropractor, massage therapist or physical therapist who can do that.

I dont bring my car to Jiffy Lube for an oil change, Midas for brakes and Meineke for a muffler. I go right to the Volvo dealership because they can do all 3 AND will be able to diagnose any other problems that my be going on at the same time.

No thanks. I will keep seeing my DO. I dont trust my car with gimicky repair shops and I dont trust my body with midlevel or non-physician practioners.

I really appreciated this post.

 

[Dr JPH]

So have I. That's why I support combining them into a single degree and making OMM an option.

How could you support that if you arent part of either group?

 

[beastmaster]

It's interesting to watch DO students and DO applicants go through "Stages of Acceptance" about their medical degree: Anger, Denial, Bargaining, Acceptance.

I've cycled through the 5 stages numerous times. It's an enlightening experience every time.

 

[VPDcurt]

It's funny how people spend pages after pages arguing that DO = MD. If we all believed that to be true, this would not be an issue. There is clearly some difference here. The analogy about the car and going to various shops is a terrible one in that it shows the limitations of the DO degree. DOs therefore should not be doing things like surgery, because they are essentially replacing the massage therapists, physical therapists and chiropractors combined. That is not very impressive. Someone stated earlier that people go to DO schools because they couldn't get into MD schools and that that was simply not true...Well - newsflash - it is absolutely true. DO schools don't have lower averages because they choose to select from that bunch of applicants. They are forced to take the spillover after the MD schools have made their selections. Everyone I know that has gone to a DO school (and I've known very many) has gone there aftery trying to get into an MD school and failing at that. It is the denial of this fact that makes the DO students and physicians come across as extremely defensive and serves to perpetuate the differences that do in fact exist in the fields. There is a difference - people are just unwilling to accept that fact. DO schools were created to assist in providing primary care to underserved or poor regions of the US (hence the locations of most DO schools). With that mission statement in mind, the school has no interest in training a DO Neurosurgeon.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

How could you support that if you arent part of either group?

I will be eventually. I think those who are about to enter the field have a right to state their opinion as much as anyone else.

 

[MaximusD]

It's funny how people spend pages after pages arguing that DO = MD. If we all believed that to be true, this would not be an issue. There is clearly some difference here. The analogy about the car and going to various shops is a terrible one in that it shows the limitations of the DO degree. DOs therefore should not be doing things like surgery, because they are essentially replacing the massage therapists, physical therapists and chiropractors combined. That is not very impressive. Someone stated earlier that people go to DO schools because they couldn't get into MD schools and that that was simply not true...Well - newsflash - it is absolutely true. DO schools don't have lower averages because they choose to select from that bunch of applicants. They are forced to take the spillover after the MD schools have made their selections. Everyone I know that has gone to a DO school (and I've known very many) has gone there aftery trying to get into an MD school and failing at that. It is the denial of this fact that makes the DO students and physicians come across as extremely defensive and serves to perpetuate the differences that do in fact exist in the fields. There is a difference - people are just unwilling to accept that fact. DO schools were created to assist in providing primary care to underserved or poor regions of the US (hence the locations of most DO schools). With that mission statement in mind, the school has no interest in training a DO Neurosurgeon.

This argument is based upon the fallacy that entrance scores translate into quality of outcome.

 

[VPDcurt]

This argument is based upon the fallacy that entrance scores translate into quality of outcome.

I never said anything about outcome. I was merely stating that allopathic schools get the first pick of the applicants....besides, even DO schools use scores/gpas to weed out applicants. We have to use some system with so many applicants...otherwise anyone with a pulse can become a physician.

Why do so many applicants try MD and then go DO if it doesn't work out? Very few pursue DO prior to trying at an MD school. There is a reason for this and everyone knows that.

 

[Dr JPH]

I will be eventually. I think those who are about to enter the field have a right to state their opinion as much as anyone else.

Well, lets see if you get there first. Then I would be happy to listen to your opinion.

 

[Dr JPH]

It's funny how people spend pages after pages arguing that DO = MD. If we all believed that to be true, this would not be an issue. There is clearly some difference here.

Agreed. There is a difference.

The analogy about the car and going to various shops is a terrible one in that it shows the limitations of the DO degree.

Dont understand what you mean here. What I was saying is that DOs have the training and ability to do all of the functions of those other people.

DOs therefore should not be doing things like surgery,

I will remember that in the next few years when I am going through my surgical residency...a spot in a program that more than a few MD applicants didnt match into, by the way.

because they are essentially replacing the massage therapists, physical therapists and chiropractors combined.

Not quite, although replacing chiropractors wouldnt be an altogether bad thing.

That is not very impressive. Someone stated earlier that people go to DO schools because they couldn't get into MD schools and that that was simply not true...Well - newsflash - it is absolutely true.

For many people it is true, I agree with you.

DO schools don't have lower averages because they choose to select from that bunch of applicants. They are forced to take the spillover after the MD schools have made their selections.

Largely true.

Everyone I know that has gone to a DO school (and I've known very many) has gone there aftery trying to get into an MD school and failing at that.

I know a lot more and I would say you are only half right.

It is the denial of this fact that makes the DO students and physicians come across as extremely defensive and serves to perpetuate the differences that do in fact exist in the fields. There is a difference - people are just unwilling to accept that fact.

There certainly is a difference. I accept that fully. I am trained in the exact same way as any MD student except that I learn OMT as well. Sounds like a bit more when you think about it.

DO schools were created to assist in providing primary care to underserved or poor regions of the US (hence the locations of most DO schools).

True.

With that mission statement in mind, the school has no interest in training a DO Neurosurgeon.

False.

 

[DocBR]

Dont understand what you mean here. What I was saying is that DOs have the training and ability to do all of the functions of those other people.

VPDcurt misunderstood your analogy. I think he believes you said that DO = Massage Therapist + physical therapist + chiropractor and that it ends there.

If I read it correctly, you were saying that DO = physician + Massage Therapist + physical therapist + chiropractor.

???

 

[VPDcurt]

I will remember that in the next few years when I am going through my surgical residency...a spot in a program that more than a few MD applicants didnt match into, by the way.

Will you remember all of this when you might overhear a conversation about you that goes something like this: "He's decent, but he's still a DO." Or an attending saying to you, "Am I supposed to call you Doctor?"

Welcome to the real world buddy. You are still an idealist, along with many others on this board, that feels strongly about a sense of equality that is yet to be achieved in practice. Denying reality might make it easier for you now, but it doesn't change the way things are in the real world. Best of luck to you in your surgical residency. Congrats on obtaining that - you deserve it - I know of many programs that won't even consider DO applications.

 

[DocBR]

I was merely stating that allopathic schools get the first pick of the applicants....besides, even DO schools use scores/gpas to weed out applicants. We have to use some system with so many applicants...otherwise anyone with a pulse can become a physician.

Why do so many applicants try MD and then go DO if it doesn't work out? Very few pursue DO prior to trying at an MD school. There is a reason for this and everyone knows that.

You are ranking physicians by the difficulty of admission to their schools; based on that logic all physicians regardless of their degree should have the specific school they attended on their name badges. e.g. MD-UCLA , or DO-PCOM. Because, after all it seems like you are saying what makes a doctor is the school they got accepted to.

What school do you attend?

 

[Lamborghini1315]

Massage therapist...sure, if my back pain is due to a tight muscle.

Physical therapist can help me if my pain is from a strain/sprain, and also coach me on proper body mechanics.

And I could always see a chiropractor if my pain is due to an articular problem.

But why would I when I can see a DO who has the training to fix any and all of those problems...because the pain is likely a combination of all the above. Not only that, what if there is something else going on?

A chiropractor will crack my back twice a week for the rest of my life and never question "hey...why does this guys back pain keep coming back." A Physical therapist will see me as long as the physician keeps writing prescriptions. And a massage therapist will see me as long as I pay the money.

But a DO, or any physician presented with an ongoing problem, will look for an etiology. Is it really muscular? is it really articular?

I have had patients come to my office with all sorts of complaints only to diagnose non-muscoloskeletal etiologies. UTI, cholelithiasis, crohns, multiple myeloma, etc.

Try finding a chiropractor, massage therapist or physical therapist who can do that.

I dont bring my car to Jiffy Lube for an oil change, Midas for brakes and Meineke for a muffler. I go right to the Volvo dealership because they can do all 3 AND will be able to diagnose any other problems that my be going on at the same time.

No thanks. I will keep seeing my DO. I dont trust my car with gimicky repair shops and I dont trust my body with midlevel or non-physician practioners.

 

[Dr JPH]

Will you remember all of this when you might overhear a conversation about you that goes something like this: "He's decent, but he's still a DO." Or an attending saying to you, "Am I supposed to call you Doctor?"

Welcome to the real world buddy. You are still an idealist, along with many others on this board, that feels strongly about a sense of equality that is yet to be achieved in practice. Denying reality might make it easier for you now, but it doesn't change the way things are in the real world. Best of luck to you in your surgical residency. Congrats on obtaining that - you deserve it - I know of many programs that won't even consider DO applications.

You are so wordly and wise, MS1. Have you even passed anatomy yet?

 

[VPDcurt]

You are ranking physicians by the difficulty of admission to their schools; based on that logic all physicians regardless of their degree should have the specific school they attended on their name badges. e.g. MD-UCLA , or DO-PCOM. Because, after all it seems like you are saying what makes a doctor is the school they got accepted to.

What school do you attend?

I am not ranking based on school attended - you are putting words in my mouth. My point is - not everyone can be a physician. MD schools hold applicants to a higher standard - as they should be held. With all of these DO schools popping up, anyone with a pulse will be a physician. Watering down the talent and applicant pool is not a good thing - haha look what it did to the NBA and the NHL. Stop being so defensive about your DO degrees and move on with life. You are the ones that create the problem. Why do so many DO's put, Dr. John Doe, rather than John Doe, DO? I know why, but it's the truth, so you clearly don't want to hear that - you'd much rather prefer living in your own created world.

 

[Dr JPH]

Why do so many DO's put, Dr. John Doe, rather than John Doe, DO?

So the patients dont flock to them and leave the MDs weeping in the distance.

 

[DocBR]

I am not ranking based on school attended - you are putting words in my mouth. My point is - not everyone can be a physician. MD schools hold applicants to a higher standard - as they should be held. With all of these DO schools popping up, anyone with a pulse will be a physician. Watering down the talent and applicant pool is not a good thing - haha look what it did to the NBA and the NHL. Stop being so defensive about your DO degrees and move on with life. You are the ones that create the problem. Why do so many DO's put, Dr. John Doe, rather than John Doe, DO? I know why, but it's the truth, so you clearly don't want to hear that - you'd much rather prefer living in your own created world.

I am not defending my "DO Degree" I am currently in the application cycle and have stats that can get me into both DO and MD schools inside the US. ( I have received 2 acceptances so far, and expect at least 1 more). I am defending DO because from my experience and the experience of the many doctors I have spoke to, it truly is equivalent. I find myself more drawn to one particular DO school over most of the MD schools I have interviewed at.

Also, how are you not ranking based on schools? "watering down the application pool" is a subjective description. Where do you draw the line? Is anyone not getting into a top 20 MD school watering down the physician pool? How about a waitlisted person? Have they watered down the quality of students?

Also you did not answer my question - what school do you attend?

 

[MaximusD]

I never said anything about outcome. I was merely stating that allopathic schools get the first pick of the applicants....besides, even DO schools use scores/gpas to weed out applicants. We have to use some system with so many applicants...otherwise anyone with a pulse can become a physician.

Why do so many applicants try MD and then go DO if it doesn't work out? Very few pursue DO prior to trying at an MD school. There is a reason for this and everyone knows that.

Many, many applicants apply to both, knowing that both will give you the ability to become a physician and specialize it whatever area they please. I fall into this category, and I will be proud to be a DO as I have been assured by a few physicians (mostly MDs, in fact) in competitive specialities that most DO schools produce high quality physicians.

 

[MaximusD]

Will you remember all of this when you might overhear a conversation about you that goes something like this: "He's decent, but he's still a DO." Or an attending saying to you, "Am I supposed to call you Doctor?"

Welcome to the real world buddy. You are still an idealist, along with many others on this board, that feels strongly about a sense of equality that is yet to be achieved in practice. Denying reality might make it easier for you now, but it doesn't change the way things are in the real world. Best of luck to you in your surgical residency. Congrats on obtaining that - you deserve it - I know of many programs that won't even consider DO applications.

NAME THEM. Even the AMA has urged competitive residencies to consider DO applicants because IT UNDERSTANDS THAT DO STUDENTS ARE WELL-QUALIFIED. Your denial of that fact only highlights your ignorance of how things work on the "real world" -as you put it.

 

[Dr JPH]

I know of many programs that won't even consider DO applications.

Lets hear your list.

 

[Nate]

My daddy is a cop and he can beat up your daddy

 

[MaximusD]

My daddy is a cop and he can beat up your daddy

Nate, sometimes your words hurt.

 

[Dr JPH]

My daddy is a cop and he can beat up your daddy

My DO school can beat up your DO school.

 

[Nate]

Oh yeah well my DO school beat up four MD schools once, and they were all ninjas

oh wow this really does validate my school and make me feel better about myself, now I can crawl out of my depression and feel like a real man again

 

[MaximusD]

My DO school can beat up your DO school.

speaking of daddies, mine is an attorney. We've had some fun arguments about capping pain and suffering...

Not really fun considering we both think that the other is a ***** haha

 

[1Path]

This thread is a reminder of why I have so much respect for DO's.

 

[MaximusD]

This thread is a reminder of why I have so much respect for DO's.

Much appreciated.

I'm hoping that my sarcasmometer doesn't need a tune-up.

 

[Dr JPH]

This thread is a reminder of why I have so much respect for DO's.

Why thank you.

 

[Pansit]

Will you remember all of this when you might overhear a conversation about you that goes something like this: "He's decent, but he's still a DO." Or an attending saying to you, "Am I supposed to call you Doctor?"

Welcome to the real world buddy. You are still an idealist, along with many others on this board, that feels strongly about a sense of equality that is yet to be achieved in practice. Denying reality might make it easier for you now, but it doesn't change the way things are in the real world. Best of luck to you in your surgical residency. Congrats on obtaining that - you deserve it - I know of many programs that won't even consider DO applications.

Your funny......apparently not everyone got your sarcasm. I dont even think this deserves a reply. This is part of his argument:

"He's decent, but he's still a DO." Or an attending saying to you, "Am I supposed to call you Doctor?"

I think you maybe the one in denial that DO's will one day take over the world, end world hunger, poverty, and bring peace to all people. DO's will even become so popular that our own operating system that computer DO's invent will outcompete microsoft and apple. Don't be scared, will give it out to everyone for free, because we are DO's.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

My daddy is a cop and he can beat up your daddy

Forget your dad....I'd be more afraid of his son.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

This thread is a reminder of why I have so much respect for DO's.

This thread is a reminder why I have so much respect for JP (despite disagreeing with him on a few things).

 

[Dr JPH]

This thread is a reminder why I have so much respect for JP (despite disagreeing with him on a few things).

We disagree?

 

[DropkickMurphy]

We disagree?

Well played.......

 

[HarveyCushing]

How does one find out how many applied and were matched into AOA NS residencies? Is that data published somewhere that the public can see?

 

[Dr JPH]

How does one find out how many applied and were matched into AOA NS residencies? Is that data published somewhere that the public can see?

The AOA publishes the data.

 

[HarveyCushing]

The AOA publishes the data.

Where would I find this info?

 

[Dr JPH]

Where would I find this info?

1-800-AOA-INFO?

Im not sure. I will dig around for you and see what I can find.

www.aoa-net.org might not be a bad place to start.

 

[HarveyCushing]

1-800-AOA-INFO?

Im not sure. I will dig around for you and see what I can find.

www.aoa-net.org might not be a bad place to start.

I have only been able to find the match results( https://www.do-online.org/index.cfm...PageID=sir_matchresults&SubPageID=sir_postdoc) . Not the application process stats and results

 

[1Path]

This thread is a reminder of why I have so much respect for DO's.

Of course, my Pediatrician growing up was a DO and that was in the 70's!