DO Neurosurgery chances

[frogman63]

Hello all,

I am reaching out as a current third year medical student at an osteopathic school. Like most people I entered medical school not knowing which speciality I wanted to pursue. I always thought I would focus on my course work and board preparation as I did not want those to be limiting factors in my decision on my career. Beginning at the end of my second year and more strongly during third year I fell in love with the field of neurosurgery. Here are my stats

Board scores (I'm new to SDN so I'm not sure its appropriate to share actual numbers so I'll omit numerical scores): USMLE - Greater than national average for matched neurosurgery applicants. COMLEX - I'm not sure of the average COMLEX score of applicants who have matched but its greater than 680.

1st and 2nd year coursework grades are strong.

Clerkships all high pass / honors pass

Extracurriculars are strong. I've been involved in many aspects of student organizations.

Research - Well this is my biggest glaring flag on my resume. I have no clinical / lab research during my first two years. I am working on publishing in a field outside of neurosurgery. I am also in the process of working on a case report and literature review in a topic associated with neurosurgery. Like I previously said I didn't focus on this aspect during my first two years as I had no strong pull into a particular field. I wasn't interested in doing research unless my interest in the topic was truly present. Looking back I wished I had the insight I have now as I would have at least attempted to put some foot forward.

I guess I am just asking for feedback from the community and advice as to how I should advance in the process. As I am a first generation medical student my exposure / understanding to this process is from my own experience. It is nerve wracking to be standing at a crossroads with little guidance... Thanks for any advice that you could give.

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[Rogue42]

Regardless of your scores, matching neurosurgery is extremely difficult to match - and even that much harder for DO students.

However, it sounds like you are on the right track; definitely buff your research and try your hardest to start making connections in the field.

 

[Lawpy]

Nsgy is hard to match even for people coming from top schools. I think what you need is a lot of published nsgy research and strong connections with nsgy leaders who can bat for you in residency applications. That is very hard to do as a DO student simply because of the limited resources DO schools can offer.

I don’t know. Maybe you need to take a research year and aways to make connections with nsgy leaders at solid programs, but these are usually MD programs with their own students aiming hard for nsgy.

@mmmcdowe @Skullcutter69 thoughts pls?

 

[GoSpursGo]

I'm going to be the cold water here. Take a look at this: https://public.tableau.com/app/prof...ram/viz/ChartingOutcomes2020/ChartingOutcomes . Set the applicant type to US DO senior, and the specialty to Neurological Surgery.

You will see that, excluding the 8 applicants who had no chance to begin with (step 1 200-230), there were only 15 neurosurgery DO applicants, period, over a 5 year period from 2016-2020. Even among students with a step 1 >250, the match rate was only 50%. If you want to go by COMLEX baseline, the match rate is 4/9 over the same time period for COMLEX 1 >650. If you look at charting outcomes from 2020 specifically, only 2 people matched with a step 1 score: https://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/upl...utcomes-in-the-Match-2020_DO-Senior_final.pdf . Given the small numbers and combining with the interactive charting outcomes, you get perfect data for those two applicants: one was somebody without a step 1 score, and the other had a 252. The median number of research products (abstracts/posters/pubs) was 11.5.

Here is the takeaway I get from this data--it isn't that it's impossible to match to neurosurgery as a DO, it's that they are highly highly highly self-selecting. I do not believe that these two people who matched were the only high-achieving DO students who were interested in neurosurgery, I suspect instead that they were the ones who were able to make strong impressions either at their home program or places they did their research/aways at and were thus "encouraged" to apply. This likely only happens for students who are truly exceptional in all regards, including publications. And even then, over a relatively long period of time, you still only make it to a 50% match rate.

So... I'm not saying you shouldn't apply. But I would very seriously consider whether you could be happy doing anything else. Because if the answer is yes, then that would be much safer. If you CAN'T see yourself doing anything else without at least taking a shot at neurosurgery, then I would really consider whether you can do a research year before 4th year. I do not believe you're going to get the kind of encouragement from programs to apply unless you hit double digit research products, and you're not going to get there by September at your current pace. You very likely made the right decision for yourself by focusing on your studies, but the numbers alone aren't going to be enough to match. Without reopening the whole debate about how awful it is that students are being made to take a research year to apply to highly competitive specialties... that is the game that even MD students are being forced to play these days. And if you want to be one of literally 2-4 DO students in the whole country to match neurosurgery, that's the game you have to play too.

 

[trundlethegreat]

I'm going to be the cold water here. Take a look at this: https://public.tableau.com/app/prof...ram/viz/ChartingOutcomes2020/ChartingOutcomes . Set the applicant type to US DO senior, and the specialty to Neurological Surgery.

You will see that, excluding the 8 applicants who had no chance to begin with (step 1 200-230), there were only 15 neurosurgery DO applicants, period, over a 5 year period from 2016-2020. Even among students with a step 1 >250, the match rate was only 50%. If you want to go by COMLEX baseline, the match rate is 4/9 over the same time period for COMLEX 1 >650. If you look at charting outcomes from 2020 specifically, only 2 people matched with a step 1 score: https://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/upl...utcomes-in-the-Match-2020_DO-Senior_final.pdf . Given the small numbers and combining with the interactive charting outcomes, you get perfect data for those two applicants: one was somebody without a step 1 score, and the other had a 252. The median number of research products (abstracts/posters/pubs) was 11.5.

Here is the takeaway I get from this data--it isn't that it's impossible to match to neurosurgery as a DO, it's that they are highly highly highly self-selecting. I do not believe that these two people who matched were the only high-achieving DO students who were interested in neurosurgery, I suspect instead that they were the ones who were able to make strong impressions either at their home program or places they did their research/aways at and were thus "encouraged" to apply. This likely only happens for students who are truly exceptional in all regards, including publications. And even then, over a relatively long period of time, you still only make it to a 50% match rate.

So... I'm not saying you shouldn't apply. But I would very seriously consider whether you could be happy doing anything else. Because if the answer is yes, then that would be much safer. If you CAN'T see yourself doing anything else without at least taking a shot at neurosurgery, then I would really consider whether you can do a research year before 4th year. I do not believe you're going to get the kind of encouragement from programs to apply unless you hit double digit research products, and you're not going to get there by September at your current pace. You very likely made the right decision for yourself by focusing on your studies, but the numbers alone aren't going to be enough to match. Without reopening the whole debate about how awful it is that students are being made to take a research year to apply to highly competitive specialties... that is the game that even MD students are being forced to play these days. And if you want to be one of literally 2-4 DO students in the whole country to match neurosurgery, that's the game you have to play too

I’ll do a write up later after I learn tomorrow where I matched and have the energy to do so but I was one of the DOs that matched this year. Feel free to DM me with specific questions.

I’m a data driven person but generally speaking you can’t look at any NRMP data or publication and make any determinations on your probability of matching, outside of being >90th percentile on everything. There are just too many confounders and also because there just aren’t enough DOs that apply and we’re only a couple years into the full single GME. 29 did apply this year so maybe we’ll be able to see some trends develop in the next 5-10 years.

If you’re serious about NS and don’t have the Research background, you need to strongly consider a research year or even 2. Many from UCSF and Mayo are even doing them at this point. In 2018, the average peer reviewed pub count among matched candidates was 6.5 (up from ~2 seven years prior and does not count posters or other “pubs”). Not to mention you need someone to vouch for you as an orphan student without a home program.

It’s not impossible and it’s getting better but it’s insanely difficult.

 

[frogman63]

I'm going to be the cold water here. Take a look at this: https://public.tableau.com/app/prof...ram/viz/ChartingOutcomes2020/ChartingOutcomes . Set the applicant type to US DO senior, and the specialty to Neurological Surgery.

You will see that, excluding the 8 applicants who had no chance to begin with (step 1 200-230), there were only 15 neurosurgery DO applicants, period, over a 5 year period from 2016-2020. Even among students with a step 1 >250, the match rate was only 50%. If you want to go by COMLEX baseline, the match rate is 4/9 over the same time period for COMLEX 1 >650. If you look at charting outcomes from 2020 specifically, only 2 people matched with a step 1 score: https://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/upl...utcomes-in-the-Match-2020_DO-Senior_final.pdf . Given the small numbers and combining with the interactive charting outcomes, you get perfect data for those two applicants: one was somebody without a step 1 score, and the other had a 252. The median number of research products (abstracts/posters/pubs) was 11.5.

Here is the takeaway I get from this data--it isn't that it's impossible to match to neurosurgery as a DO, it's that they are highly highly highly self-selecting. I do not believe that these two people who matched were the only high-achieving DO students who were interested in neurosurgery, I suspect instead that they were the ones who were able to make strong impressions either at their home program or places they did their research/aways at and were thus "encouraged" to apply. This likely only happens for students who are truly exceptional in all regards, including publications. And even then, over a relatively long period of time, you still only make it to a 50% match rate.

So... I'm not saying you shouldn't apply. But I would very seriously consider whether you could be happy doing anything else. Because if the answer is yes, then that would be much safer. If you CAN'T see yourself doing anything else without at least taking a shot at neurosurgery, then I would really consider whether you can do a research year before 4th year. I do not believe you're going to get the kind of encouragement from programs to apply unless you hit double digit research products, and you're not going to get there by September at your current pace. You very likely made the right decision for yourself by focusing on your studies, but the numbers alone aren't going to be enough to match. Without reopening the whole debate about how awful it is that students are being made to take a research year to apply to highly competitive specialties... that is the game that even MD students are being forced to play these days. And if you want to be one of literally 2-4 DO students in the whole country to match neurosurgery, that's the game you have to play too.

I appreciate you being the "cold water" and I respect the honesty. To be honest I've always known the odds were against my favor. Personally I've really looked deep into myself and reflected on this for many many nights. I truly don't know if there is another field in medicine that I could see myself loving. I just think if I don't go for it I'll always ask myself "what if".

I am realistic and understand the game. It may be to late for me to take a research year. On top of trying to plan a career I am also trying to plan a life with my partner (who is also matching in 2023). So that would add another layer to it. However I will look into the possibility.

My school does have a home program. Is it appropriate to reach out the PD? Thanks again for your advice.

 

[homunculusus]

do derm. 4 years less training, more $/hr than nsg, no emergencies, avoid 5 future divorces

 

[Lawpy]

I appreciate you being the "cold water" and I respect the honesty. To be honest I've always known the odds were against my favor. Personally I've really looked deep into myself and reflected on this for many many nights. I truly don't know if there is another field in medicine that I could see myself loving. I just think if I don't go for it I'll always ask myself "what if".

I am realistic and understand the game. It may be to late for me to take a research year. On top of trying to plan a career I am also trying to plan a life with my partner (who is also matching in 2023). So that would add another layer to it. However I will look into the possibility.

My school does have a home program. Is it appropriate to reach out the PD? Thanks again for your advice.

I think these constraints are making the already challenging tasks of matching even more significantly difficult

 

[trundlethegreat]

I appreciate you being the "cold water" and I respect the honesty. To be honest I've always known the odds were against my favor. Personally I've really looked deep into myself and reflected on this for many many nights. I truly don't know if there is another field in medicine that I could see myself loving. I just think if I don't go for it I'll always ask myself "what if".

I am realistic and understand the game. It may be to late for me to take a research year. On top of trying to plan a career I am also trying to plan a life with my partner (who is also matching in 2023). So that would add another layer to it. However I will look into the possibility.

My school does have a home program. Is it appropriate to reach out the PD? Thanks again for your advice.

Going to give you some tough love here but the fact you haven’t plugged into your home program (which I have to assume is PCOM because that’s the only truly DO affiliated program) is not a good sign. Not able or unwilling to do a research year as well is going to significantly limit your chances. You’re going to want to dual apply.

 

[trundlethegreat]

do derm. 4 years less training, more $/hr than nsg, no emergencies, avoid 5 future divorces

Yeah but there’s no marvel superhero who was previously a dermatologist.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I’ll do a write up later after I learn tomorrow where I matched and have the energy to do so but I was one of the DOs that matched this year. Feel free to DM me with specific questions.

I’m a data driven person but generally speaking you can’t look at any NRMP data or publication and make any determinations on your probability of matching, outside of being >90th percentile on everything. There are just too many confounders and also because there just aren’t enough DOs that apply and we’re only a couple years into the full single GME. 29 did apply this year so maybe we’ll be able to see some trends develop in the next 5-10 years.

If you’re serious about NS and don’t have the Research background, you need to strongly consider a research year or even 2. Many from UCSF and Mayo are even doing them at this point. In 2018, the average peer reviewed pub count among matched candidates was 6.5 (up from ~2 seven years prior and does not count posters or other “pubs”). Not to mention you need someone to vouch for you as an orphan student without a home program.

It’s not impossible and it’s getting better but it’s insanely difficult.

I completely agree, and while maybe it got lost when I started quoting percentages and such, the bolded is what I was trying to say. Those who apply are highly, highly self-selecting, and there are undoubtedly a number of "high stats" students who were interested in neurosurgery but chose not to apply because they knew that they didn't have "the whole package" (research, connections, letters, etc). The step 1 score, while obviously very strong, is just one data point.

I appreciate you being the "cold water" and I respect the honesty. To be honest I've always known the odds were against my favor. Personally I've really looked deep into myself and reflected on this for many many nights. I truly don't know if there is another field in medicine that I could see myself loving. I just think if I don't go for it I'll always ask myself "what if".

I am realistic and understand the game. It may be to late for me to take a research year. On top of trying to plan a career I am also trying to plan a life with my partner (who is also matching in 2023). So that would add another layer to it. However I will look into the possibility.

My school does have a home program. Is it appropriate to reach out the PD? Thanks again for your advice.

I will echo @trundlethegreat , if it's spring of your 3rd year of med school and you HAVEN'T reached out to your home PD at this point... you are very far behind. As I think he and I have tried to indicate, once you get the high stats that you need to be competitive, everything else sort of becomes a game of soft qualifications to prove that out of all of the DO NSGY applicants in the country, YOU are one of the handful who should get accepted. I am not sure that you can make that kind of impression in 5 months, and if you can't take a research year... then if you feel you have to shoot your shot by all means do, but have a backup plan.

To concretely answer your question--yes, try to get a meeting with the NSGY PD for ASAP.

 

[DNC127]

You wont match as it stands with no connections, research, or really "proof" you "love" NS.

You need a research year or 2. If you truly love it, then it shouldn't be too much to ask..

If you are unwilling to do a research year, you do not love it enough and you should do something less demanding from an application/time perspective.

People can match w/o a research year, but those people spent all 4 years of medical school prepping and making connections

 

[trundlethegreat]

You wont match as it stands with no connections, research, or really "proof" you "love" NS.

You need a research year or 2. If you truly love it, then it shouldn't be too much to ask..

If you are unwilling to do a research year, you do not love it enough and you should do something less demanding from an application/time perspective.

People can match w/o a research year, but those people spent all 4 years of medical school prepping and making connections

Yeah put another way, I know folks who were significantly more prepared and qualified March of their third year and did not match.

 

[GoSpursGo]

You wont match as it stands with no connections, research, or really "proof" you "love" NS.

You need a research year or 2. If you truly love it, then it shouldn't be too much to ask..

If you are unwilling to do a research year, you do not love it enough and you should do something less demanding from an application/time perspective.

That's not really fair. Having a significant other is absolutely a valid consideration. It may well be that the OP isn't "unwilling," but rather simply "unable."

The OP *does* need to understand the consequences of being unable to take a research year, but it doesn't have to entail any judgement on him personally. People have to make decisions between their professional life and personal life all the time, and I really don't feel that it does anyone any good to frame someone who chooses not to make a personal sacrifice for their job as simply not caring.

 

[trundlethegreat]

That's not really fair. Having a significant other is absolutely a valid consideration. It may well be that the OP isn't "unwilling," but rather simply "unable."

The OP *does* need to understand the consequences of being unable to take a research year, but it doesn't have to entail any judgement on him personally. People have to make decisions between their professional life and personal life all the time, and I really don't feel that it does anyone any good to frame someone who chooses not to make a personal sacrifice for their job as simply not caring.

Both can be true. OP can really want to do neurosurgery but not be “dedicated” enough due to a valid personal reason. Regardless, their chances are very low and I think it’s worth being blunt about it to stress the reality of their situation, since DO med school advising for subspecialty surgery is a joke.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Both can be true. OP can really want to do neurosurgery but not be “dedicated” enough due to a valid personal reason. Regardless, their chances are very low and I think it’s worth being blunt about it to stress the reality of their situation, since DO med school advising for subspecialty surgery is a joke.

I agree, I just think we need to be careful about being judgmental about it. Intentional or not, saying things like "If you don't do abc, then you don't love xyz enough" is pretty judgmental and can push students to make bad decisions like choosing to sacrifice something important in their personal life or barreling forward with an application that has a low likelihood of success. I'm sort of going off on a tangent here, but we need to do a better job of framing these sorts of decisions in a way that either choice is seen as "good," rather than one choice being "pushing forward" and the other being "giving up."

 

[Lawpy]

You wont match as it stands with no connections, research, or really "proof" you "love" NS.

You need a research year or 2. If you truly love it, then it shouldn't be too much to ask..

If you are unwilling to do a research year, you do not love it enough and you should do something less demanding from an application/time perspective.

People can match w/o a research year, but those people spent all 4 years of medical school prepping and making connections

That's not really fair. Having a significant other is absolutely a valid consideration. It may well be that the OP isn't "unwilling," but rather simply "unable."

The OP *does* need to understand the consequences of being unable to take a research year, but it doesn't have to entail any judgement on him personally. People have to make decisions between their professional life and personal life all the time, and I really don't feel that it does anyone any good to frame someone who chooses not to make a personal sacrifice for their job as simply not caring.

Yeah i agree with both actually. The issue is OP is trying for something that’s inherently really competitive and then adding more constraints and restrictions on themselves which makes it effectively nearly impossible to match. You can’t have it both ways.

 

[Lawpy]

I agree, I just think we need to be careful about being judgmental about it. Intentional or not, saying things like "If you don't do abc, then you don't love xyz enough" is pretty judgmental and can push students to make bad decisions like choosing to sacrifice something important in their personal life or barreling forward with an application that has a low likelihood of success. I'm sort of going off on a tangent here, but we need to do a better job of framing these sorts of decisions in a way that either choice is seen as "good," rather than one choice being "pushing forward" and the other being "giving up."

Eh i agree, i’m just viewing such comments as part of the blunt nature of the internet.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Eh i agree, i’m just viewing such comments as part of the blunt nature of the internet.

And I’m saying the internet doesn’t have to be so blunt Just because it is doesn’t mean it needs to be.

 

[Lanhaines Elsetion]

Not to be negative, but I think your chances are very slim even with strong away rotations, which is not guaranteed, and may not overcome the DO title or lack of research. Its rumored that 29 DOs applied to neurosurgery this year but there are only 5 pre-merger "DO" spots left, and some might be filled with MDs. That leaves DO students attempting to match at more competitive programs. From what I can tell, most DO applicants this year had 10-20 publications in neurosurgery and probably good scores/mentors/letters. Some have 30+ pub with multiple research years. "DO" programs had their pick of applicants this year, and probably got their top choices. Many applicants will also already enter the match with connections to these programs through research/mentors.

You would have more luck in nearly any other surgical subspecialty and seem to be competitive based on your scores. I highly recommend you soul search and see if you would be happy as another type of surgeon or specialist. Going unmatched is not fun and hurts your other specialty prospects.

If you truly cannot do anything else, find some mentors in the field ASAP and do 1-2 research years between M3-4, before you apply. Take step 2 and CRUSH it as well.

 

[frogman63]

You wont match as it stands with no connections, research, or really "proof" you "love" NS.

You need a research year or 2. If you truly love it, then it shouldn't be too much to ask..

If you are unwilling to do a research year, you do not love it enough and you should do something less demanding from an application/time perspective.

People can match w/o a research year, but those people spent all 4 years of medical school prepping and making connections

I appreciate your feedback. However you truly have no idea who I am or my story to get to this point. It's not that I am unwilling to do a research year. I am unable to do one for reasons outside of medicine. Does that make my love for something less? I don't think so. I just think its a sign of the situation we find ourselves in with modern medicine.

 

[Lawpy]

Not to be negative, but I think your chances are very slim even with strong away rotations, which is not guaranteed, and may not overcome the DO title or lack of research. Its rumored that 29 DOs applied to neurosurgery this year but there are only 5 pre-merger "DO" spots left, and some might be filled with MDs. That leaves DO students attempting to match at more competitive programs. From what I can tell, most DO applicants this year had 10-20 publications in neurosurgery and probably good scores/mentors/letters. Some have 30+ pub with multiple research years. "DO" programs had their pick of applicants this year, and probably got their top choices. Many applicants will also already enter the match with connections to these programs through research/mentors.

You would have more luck in nearly any other surgical subspecialty and seem to be competitive based on your scores. I highly recommend you soul search and see if you would be happy as another type of surgeon or specialist. Going unmatched is not fun and hurts your other specialty prospects.

If you truly cannot do anything else, find some mentors in the field ASAP and do 1-2 research years between M3-4, before you apply. Take step 2 and CRUSH it as well.

It’s completely insane that nsgy requires 2 research years and 30 papers for DOs to match. A lot of (if not most) med student driven research is actually garbage even in the MD side. The real value of research is done by residents and engineers with AI/data analytics experience to do high impact and groundbreaking work and it’s that stuff that’ll completely floor any PD.

I agree with your post but it’s just crazy to me how the system requires churning out garbage research

 

[Lawpy]

I appreciate your feedback. However you truly have no idea who I am or my story to get to this point. It's not that I am unwilling to do a research year. I am unable to do one for reasons outside of medicine. Does that make my love for something less? I don't think so. I just think its a sign of the situation we find ourselves in with modern medicine.

I get it but by having such constraints, it becomes nearly if not effectively impossible to match

 

[frogman63]

I get it but by having such constraints, it becomes nearly if not effectively impossible to match

Yeah I feel you. Like I said I reached out on the post for feedback both positive and negative. When the smoke clears no matter what I end up in I'll be in a privileged position to help people. I think a lot of us lose sight of that during the process.

 

[homunculusus]

I appreciate your feedback. However you truly have no idea who I am or my story to get to this point. It's not that I am unwilling to do a research year. I am unable to do one for reasons outside of medicine. Does that make my love for something less? I don't think so. I just think its a sign of the situation we find ourselves in with modern medicine.

I won't pretend to understand your situation but if I had to pick one specialty that would tell you to choose between the work and your family/love/personal life it would be nsg. Not saying there's anything wrong with you but that is the way the system works

 

[DNC127]

I appreciate your feedback. However you truly have no idea who I am or my story to get to this point. It's not that I am unwilling to do a research year. I am unable to do one for reasons outside of medicine. Does that make my love for something less? I don't think so. I just think its a sign of the situation we find ourselves in with modern medicine.

I don’t mean to be brash but I just watched almost 70% of the 30 ish students who rotated through our program not match this year, many of which had advice from multiple people to follow their dreams despite not having the “whole package”.

surgery subs are too competitive anymore for DOs for people to give out advice that can put you in a bad spot because they were too afraid to say it how it is. You don’t want to apply unless you have the whole package, unless you are fine with soaping or have a backup specialty, which if that is the case then why even try for NS?

Honestly taking a year off to try and match NS would probably be the “easiest” sacrifice you made in regards to your personal life for the field… something to think about.

You can love something and decide it’s not a good idea for X, Y, and Z even though it’s painful to turn away. But if you LOVE it so much that it’s the only thing you want to do the rest of your life, you kind of need to sell the farm to make it happen. You have to decide which side of the fence you are on.

and there is no shame in not “loving” a field enough. Hell if my own field required not even that much more of a sacrifice to my family I would bail.

 

[frogman63]

I don’t mean to be brash but I just watched almost 70% of the 30 ish students who rotated through our program not match this year, many of which had advice from multiple people to follow their dreams despite not having the “whole package”.

surgery subs are too competitive anymore for DOs for people to give out advice that can put you in a bad spot because they were too afraid to say it how it is. You don’t want to apply unless you have the whole package, unless you are fine with soaping or have a backup specialty, which if that is the case then why even try for NS?

Honestly taking a year off to try and match NS would probably be the “easiest” sacrifice you made in regards to your personal life for the field… something to think about.

You can love something and decide it’s not a good idea for X, Y, and Z even though it’s painful to turn away. But if you LOVE it so much that it’s the only thing you want to do the rest of your life, you kind of need to sell the farm to make it happen. You have to decide which side of the fence you are on.

and there is no shame in not “loving” a field enough. Hell if my own field required not even that much more of a sacrifice to my family I would bail.

I hear you. I posted the thread looking for honesty and I truly appreciate your advice. It is hard to find blunt honesty when it is most needed. I understand the mentality of having to be all in for NS. A lot of tough conversations seem to be in the future. Like you said its time to decide which side of the fence I'm truly on. Thanks for your time.

Also thank you to everyone else who posted.

 

[Preston Garvey]

Pick a different speciality for the love of god. It is the field of sadists

 

[Neopolymath]

Pick a different speciality for the love of god. It is the field of sadists

OP, this is posted by a guy standing in free flaps that take all day lol so his perspective isn't from a lazy person.

 

[TelemarketingEnigma]

i think you should listen to what others are saying, but if you really want nsgy and also to plan a life with your partner, you’ll need to have a discussion with them about what kind of sacrifices you’re both willing to make. I know someone (MD tho) who couples matched nsgy this year, and it involved his girlfriend ALSO taking a research year (for a specialty that people generally do not do research years for). I’m sure they had to have a lot of serious conversations about what their futures could look like and the various paths they could take

 

[amcasskissin]

Hello all,

I am reaching out as a current third year medical student at an osteopathic school. Like most people I entered medical school not knowing which speciality I wanted to pursue. I always thought I would focus on my course work and board preparation as I did not want those to be limiting factors in my decision on my career. Beginning at the end of my second year and more strongly during third year I fell in love with the field of neurosurgery. Here are my stats

Board scores (I'm new to SDN so I'm not sure its appropriate to share actual numbers so I'll omit numerical scores): USMLE - Greater than national average for matched neurosurgery applicants. COMLEX - I'm not sure of the average COMLEX score of applicants who have matched but its greater than 680.

1st and 2nd year coursework grades are strong.

Clerkships all high pass / honors pass

Extracurriculars are strong. I've been involved in many aspects of student organizations.

Research - Well this is my biggest glaring flag on my resume. I have no clinical / lab research during my first two years. I am working on publishing in a field outside of neurosurgery. I am also in the process of working on a case report and literature review in a topic associated with neurosurgery. Like I previously said I didn't focus on this aspect during my first two years as I had no strong pull into a particular field. I wasn't interested in doing research unless my interest in the topic was truly present. Looking back I wished I had the insight I have now as I would have at least attempted to put some foot forward.

I guess I am just asking for feedback from the community and advice as to how I should advance in the process. As I am a first generation medical student my exposure / understanding to this process is from my own experience. It is nerve wracking to be standing at a crossroads with little guidance... Thanks for any advice that you could give.

Not related to the post but are you a Frogman?

 

[fathergoat]

Reading this thread reminds me why everyone on Reddit and in real life trash hard on SDN. Ya'll are just waaay too negative. Yeah, the chances aren't 100%, but they're not 0 either. He tries his best, reaches out to people, does some case reports and I think he has a 50-50 shot at worse.

A year or two is no time at all? I'm sorry what? It's already a 7-year specialty. Adding a year or two makes it an 8/9 year specialty. Y'all know that life itself is limited? Like we're not living to 100.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Reading this thread reminds me why everyone on Reddit and in real life trash hard on SDN. Ya'll are just waaay too negative. Yeah, the chances aren't 100%, but they're not 0 either. He tries his best, reaches out to people, does some case reports and I think he has a 50-50 shot at worse.

A year or two is no time at all? I'm sorry what? It's already a 7-year specialty. Adding a year or two makes it an 8/9 year specialty. Y'all know that life itself is limited? Like we're not living to 100.

Lmao. Unfortunately SDN will tell you the truth, whereas Reddit is all rainbows and unicorns. Just this morning I was reading a thread in great amusement where people were claiming their DO schools had 100% match rates and one poster got downvoted to oblivion because he merely commented that match rate and placement rate were different lol.

Just because the truth is negative doesn't make it any less true...

 

[trundlethegreat]

Lmao. Unfortunately SDN will tell you the truth, whereas Reddit is all rainbows and unicorns. Just this morning I was reading a thread in great amusement where people were claiming their DO schools had 100% match rates and one poster got downvoted to oblivion because he merely commented that match rate and placement rate were different lol.

Just because the truth is negative doesn't make it any less true...

Put that “Just because the truth is negative doesn’t make it any less true…” in my veins.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Reading this thread reminds me why everyone on Reddit and in real life trash hard on SDN. Ya'll are just waaay too negative. Yeah, the chances aren't 100%, but they're not 0 either. He tries his best, reaches out to people, does some case reports and I think he has a 50-50 shot at worse.

A year or two is no time at all? I'm sorry what? It's already a 7-year specialty. Adding a year or two makes it an 8/9 year specialty. Y'all know that life itself is limited? Like we're not living to 100.

I mean, if you want to look at the statistics quoted above and just decide, "Meh, I feel like I can get in," then best of luck to you. That's the sort of mentality that leads a lot of applicants to apply over their heads and wind up SOAPing, but I sincerely hope that isn't the case for you.

The math is the math. There are a limited number of residency spots and an overabundance of qualified applicants, most of whom have the same stats and superior research/connections to the OP. Literally 2 DOs matched neurosurgery in 2020, which is the last year with publicly available data, and both had levels of research that the OP will not attain by the time ERAS opens based on his current trajectory. There is no judgement being made on him personally for deciding that a research year is or isn't feasible, but if he chooses not to do one then it will put him at a disadvantage compared to the applicants who do a research year. If the OP wants to apply anyways, then he should at least be aware that he is shooting a longshot and have a backup either by dual-applying or being prepared to do a research year/prelim year if he fails to match.

 

[fathergoat]

Lmao. Unfortunately SDN will tell you the truth, whereas Reddit is all rainbows and unicorns. Just this morning I was reading a thread in great amusement where people were claiming their DO schools had 100% match rates and one poster got downvoted to oblivion because he merely commented that match rate and placement rate were different lol.

Just because the truth is negative doesn't make it any less true...

There are dumb people everywhere. In general, SDN has a lot more negative vibes.

I mean, if you want to look at the statistics quoted above and just decide, "Meh, I feel like I can get in," then best of luck to you. That's the sort of mentality that leads a lot of applicants to apply over their heads and wind up SOAPing, but I sincerely hope that isn't the case for you.

The math is the math. There are a limited number of residency spots and an overabundance of qualified applicants, most of whom have the same stats and superior research/connections to the OP. Literally 2 DOs matched neurosurgery in 2020, which is the last year with publicly available data, and both had levels of research that the OP will not attain by the time ERAS opens based on his current trajectory. There is no judgement being made on him personally for deciding that a research year is or isn't feasible, but if he chooses not to do one then it will put him at a disadvantage compared to the applicants who do a research year. If the OP wants to apply anyways, then he should at least be aware that he is shooting a longshot and have a backup either by dual-applying or being prepared to do a research year/prelim year if he fails to match.

You forgot to mention only 14 people applied and the mean step 1 for those who did not match is 225 which this poster is clearly way above. Yes, stats can look very negative if you pick out the worst aspects of it.

 

[GoSpursGo]

You forgot to mention only 14 people applied and the mean step 1 for those who did not match is 225 which this poster is clearly way above. Yes, stats can look very negative if you pick out the worst aspects of it.

And why do you think only 14 people applied? Were there really only 4 DO students in the whole country who were interested in neurosurgery with a step 1 score >250? Or, as I said, was this a highly selected group of applicants who were clearly given the green light to apply based on the totality of their application?

When you're looking at small numbers, the mean for those who didn't match are basically meaningless. The 10 people who applied with <250 were delusional and never had a chance to begin with, so they have no bearing on the OP's odds. He needs to compare himself to the two people who DID match and honestly assess if he is on that level. I am telling you, based on experience from seeing a lot of posters like the OP over the years and conversations with neurosurgery residents, that I do not think he is on that level. That isn't "negative," it's just my honest informed opinion in response to a request for feedback.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Literally 2 DOs matched neurosurgery in 2020, which is the last year with publicly available data,

9 of 24 matched this year (2022)
6 of 14 matched 2021
3 of 18 matched 2020

The point stands that the chances aren't great. And the denominators are "people who got at least one interview so had a program to rank", it's quite possible there were more people who applied and got no interviews at all.

USMLE scores are a low pass filter -- if too low, you have no chance at all. Once you meet a minimum score, then NS is all about research and connections. The OP has a home program so that's a huge plus.

The OP will need to decide whether to try for NS knowing the relatively low chances (although does appear to have improved over the last 2 years). A couples match makes it even more complicated. Trying to apply to a backup specialty and applying broadly enough to couples match isn't easy. There would be some chance of ending up with a surgical prelim spot -- and then finding a PGY-2 in the same locale as their partner could be a new problem.

Only the OP can determine if all this is "worth it", and whether they are willing to invest a research year (or two) to get NS. Reaching out to the NS PD is absolutely a critical step. Their best chance of a spot is probably at their home program.

 

[frogman63]

Hey all,

Thanks for the advice. Taking a research year and applying for match in 2024. Hope to report back with good news at the end of that cycle.