DO Neurosurgery Chances

[Han$olo]

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[Promethean]

Count me curious, too. I have a classmate with similar aspirations.

 

[IslandStyle808]

You should try and hit up the neurosurgery forms about your questions. At this point you have done everything you could and are probably as competitive as you can be. The next step will be to make sure your step 2 and level 2 are also high. For your audition rotations, I highly suggest at least trying to do 1 ACGME away rotation (I am probably in the minority on this suggestion). This will hopefully land you a letter with a rather well known PD and give you more interviews on the ACGME side, on top of the ones gained through AOA rotations.

 

[YayPudding]

As a student interested in the neurological fields, I would appreciate any feedback regarding school choices. I was accepted to a number of DO programs, but among my top options are MSUCOM, CCOM, PCOM and NYITCOM. Would any of these have a strong advantage over the others for neurosurgery?

 

[Goro]

According to the PD survey, these are the two most important criteria for selecting to interview in Neurosurg:

USMLE Step 1/COMLEX Level 1 score
Letters of recommendation in the specialty

And these are the top reasons for ranking (in order):
Interactions with faculty during interview and visit
Interactions with house staff during interview and visit
Interpersonal skills, Letters of recommendation in the specialty, Feedback from current residents (all tied)

77% of programs use the target score for selection, vs 22% that looked at passing
USMLE2 was less important, 38% for passing, and 29% for score.

67% of programs will use Step 2 CS and Step 3 scores

Your 244 score should net you an interview at those programs that accept COMLEX , but 77% of these program won't accept COMLEX. So, you're still in good stead.

Now, can you get an interview????
Of the 29 respondents, 43% will never interview a DO, and another 50% "seldom" interview DOs. Only 7% "often interview (and rank) DOs.

So, it's an uphill battle. My first advice is to target those programs that are DO friendly. Second is to do an audition rotation. Lastly, be a superstar. I don't like giving Lotto-winning examples, but only one of my grads has ever gone to an ACGME Neurosurg residency. 7 have gone to AOA sites. Neurosurg is going to be tough whether you're a DO OR and MD!

 

[Goro]

DOs have some better luck with Neurology.

As a student interested in the neurological fields, I would appreciate any feedback regarding school choices. I was accepted to a number of DO programs, but among my top options are MSUCOM, CCOM, PCOM and NYITCOM. Would any of these have a strong advantage over the others for neurosurgery?

 

[AlteredScale]

MSUCOM, CCOM, PCOM and NYITCOM.

Just checked the AOA residency website for all 4 of the states related to the schools above. Of them, I think 2 or 3 have pre-accred. The others did not apply for ACGME (which at this point means they are not continuing their program).

 

[Peach Newport]

I was under the impression that no DOs had matched ACGME neurosurgery for the past several years.

 

[W19]

20 publications! Wow...

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I was under the impression that no DOs had matched ACGME neurosurgery for the past several years.

Not since 2014 when 3 matched, I was curious one day and looked up the data. It does make you wonder how many actually try though, seeing as a handful match ACGME derm and ACGME ortho every year.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Not since 2014 when 3 matched, I was curious one day and looked up the data. It does make you wonder how many actually try though, seeing as a handful match ACGME derm and ACGME ortho every year.

You gotta love how the NRMP is hiding this data from the public. They may make an excuse and say the numbers of who apply is to low to get relevant data for certain field, yet they have no problem posting IMG data which also has a low amount of applicants applying to those same fields.

 

[Ioannes Paulus]

To be 100% honest, that 610 on the ComlexI is going to make it very hard to match in a DO program, I would suppose. I'm not sure about neurosurgery, but for AOA Ortho, most programs have a 650 cutoff score to even invite over for a sub-I. Maybe your pubs can help, I'm not sure.

 

[Han$olo]

To be 100% honest, that 610 on the ComlexI is going to make it very hard to match in a DO program, I would suppose. I'm not sure about neurosurgery, but for AOA Ortho, most programs have a 650 cutoff score to even invite over for a sub-I. Maybe your pubs can help, I'm not sure.

Good point. As per last year, a 609 was the 87th percentile. According to GME 2014 Charing Outcomes, the average Level 1 score for nsurg and ortho were a 578 and 598, respectively. These were stats from 2014 and a new GME Report has not, to my knowledge, been published since then. Does anyone know if 15' or 16' GME Charting Outcomes exist?

On VSAS, I have not seen a cutoff higher than 550 for nsurg and ortho to attain an audition spot. Perhaps, there are cutoffs that are higher that are just not stated explicitly.

 

[jw3600]

To be 100% honest, that 610 on the ComlexI is going to make it very hard to match in a DO program, I would suppose. I'm not sure about neurosurgery, but for AOA Ortho, most programs have a 650 cutoff score to even invite over for a sub-I. Maybe your pubs can help, I'm not sure.

Source?

 

[Rekt]

Long time lurker for years. Not trying to troll anybody. Have a genuine question. Just wanted to gain some advice and wisdom from the sdn community regarding chances of matching DO neurosurgery next cycle

Bio: 3rd year DO student. 609 on Level 1, 244 Step 1, Honored most of Pre-Clinicals, Honored Surgery Clerkship, Inducted into Sigma Sigma Phi, 20 publications all neuro related since beginning med school (2 basic science, 10 reviews, 2 ethics, 2 medical education, 2 letters to the editor, 1 humanities, 1 case report). 3-4 more pubs on the way. 4 abstracts/posters presented at national neuro meetings. Masters degree. Multiple editorial and review positions on various neuro journals. Various community service activities.

I would appreciate any advice good or bad about my chances. I know there are 7-8 programs, 14-16 spots with between 19 applicants (2014) to 46 applicants (2016) depending upon the year. Thanks very much.

Damn. All I can say is good luck and I hope you land it. Seems like you deserve it.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Source?

None. A quick look over at the osteopathic ortho thread in the surgical forum section shows he is completely off base. Posters from just this last match report that the "board heavy programs like a 600+"

The number 650 just to rotate isn't even realistic seeing as the average ortho COMLEX score is south of 600.

 

[68PGunner]

None. A quick look over at the osteopathic ortho thread in the surgical forum section shows he is completely off base. Posters from just this last match report that the "board heavy programs like a 600+"

The number 650 just to rotate isn't even realistic seeing as the average ortho COMLEX score is south of 600.

Nah, you need 700+ to be talking business nowadays.

 

[navigator]

Your track record is amazing. I really hope you match!

 

[jw3600]

None. A quick look over at the osteopathic ortho thread in the surgical forum section shows he is completely off base. Posters from just this last match report that the "board heavy programs like a 600+"

The number 650 just to rotate isn't even realistic seeing as the average ortho COMLEX score is south of 600.

I know lol

 

[lyana]

a big hospital in my city had 3 neurosurgical DO fellows last year.
It's definitely possible.

 

[TheaterOfTheme]

Long time lurker for years. Not trying to troll anybody. Have a genuine question. Just wanted to gain some advice and wisdom from the sdn community regarding chances of matching DO neurosurgery next cycle

Bio: 3rd year DO student. 609 on Level 1, 244 Step 1, Honored most of Pre-Clinicals, Honored Surgery Clerkship, Inducted into Sigma Sigma Phi, 20 publications all neuro related since beginning med school (2 basic science, 10 reviews, 2 ethics, 2 medical education, 2 letters to the editor, 1 humanities, 1 case report). 3-4 more pubs on the way. 4 abstracts/posters presented at national neuro meetings. Masters degree. Multiple editorial and review positions on various neuro journals. Various community service activities.

I would appreciate any advice good or bad about my chances. I know there are 7-8 programs, 14-16 spots with between 19 applicants (2014) to 46 applicants (2016) depending upon the year. Thanks very much.

In curious how you published so much?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Han$olo]

In curious how you published so much?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Thanks everyone for the advice and encouragement. I sincerely appreciate it.

TheaterOfTheme: I did a Masters degree at a Top 10 university prior to beginning medical school. Worked 40 hours per week in 2 labs (30 hr/wk in 1st lab; 10 hr/wk in 2nd lab) all of 1st year of med school and most of 2nd year. Also spent 15-20 hr/wk writing papers independently or with peers. Crammed for exams 2 days before test day. I would not advise that schedule but it worked for me.

May the force be with you, always
$olo

 

[FistLength]

Thanks everyone for the advice and encouragement. I sincerely appreciate it.

TheaterOfTheme: I did a Masters degree at a Top 10 university prior to beginning medical school. Worked 40 hours per week in 2 labs (30 hr/wk in 1st lab; 10 hr/wk in 2nd lab) all of 1st year of med school and most of 2nd year. Also spent 15-20 hr/wk writing papers independently or with peers. Crammed for exams 2 days before test day. I would not advise that schedule but it worked for me.

May the force be with you, always
$olo

That's simply amazing. Congratulations, you deserve every bit of success that comes your way. You are obviously well poised to take advantage of your hard work, I can only imagine a bad interview hurting your chances at a DO spot.

In addition, since you worked in 2 labs, I would try to keep those contacts and see if they can call places on your behalf. Amazing how far connections can go.

 

[navigator]

Thanks everyone for the advice and encouragement. I sincerely appreciate it.

TheaterOfTheme: I did a Masters degree at a Top 10 university prior to beginning medical school. Worked 40 hours per week in 2 labs (30 hr/wk in 1st lab; 10 hr/wk in 2nd lab) all of 1st year of med school and most of 2nd year. Also spent 15-20 hr/wk writing papers independently or with peers. Crammed for exams 2 days before test day. I would not advise that schedule but it worked for me.

May the force be with you, always
$olo

That's amazing. I've been thinking lately about how some people far smarter than me would totally be able to heavily research alongside school to crank out pubs rather than do that during the only summer vacation we really get these 4 years. You've done exactly what I wish I could do.

 

[MarshMedic]

Thanks everyone for the advice and encouragement. I sincerely appreciate it.

TheaterOfTheme: I did a Masters degree at a Top 10 university prior to beginning medical school. Worked 40 hours per week in 2 labs (30 hr/wk in 1st lab; 10 hr/wk in 2nd lab) all of 1st year of med school and most of 2nd year. Also spent 15-20 hr/wk writing papers independently or with peers. Crammed for exams 2 days before test day. I would not advise that schedule but it worked for me.

May the force be with you, always
$olo

That is astounding. I've been working heavily in research for a year and have like 4 queued up....

 

[Han$olo]

That's simply amazing. Congratulations, you deserve every bit of success that comes your way. You are obviously well poised to take advantage of your hard work, I can only imagine a bad interview hurting your chances at a DO spot.

In addition, since you worked in 2 labs, I would try to keep those contacts and see if they can call places on your behalf. Amazing how far connections can go.

That's amazing. I've been thinking lately about how some people far smarter than me would totally be able to heavily research alongside school to crank out pubs rather than do that during the only summer vacation we really get these 4 years. You've done exactly what I wish I could do.

That is astounding. I've been working heavily in research for a year and have like 4 queued up....

Thanks! I'm note sure what year you guys/gals are but I definitely recommend getting involved in research as much as you can throughout your first 3 years of medical school. Not to the point of sacrificing a good board score though - boards are of upmost importance.

Cheers

 

[SlugMD]

Thanks! I'm note sure what year you guys/gals are but I definitely recommend getting involved in research as much as you can throughout your first 3 years of medical school. Not to the point of sacrificing a good board score though - boards are of upmost importance.

Cheers

How did you get involved in neuro research as a DO student? Did you go to a school near/in a metro area so you reached out to local MD schools? Also when you say neuro are you referring to neuroscience or did you mean neurosurgery specifically?

I ask because I have had horrible luck getting research over the past few years. I went to a big school with a small bio department and the only experience I have got is 3 months over a summer.

 

[Moose A Moose]

Better than most?

 

[Han$olo]

How did you get involved in neuro research as a DO student? Did you go to a school near/in a metro area so you reached out to local MD schools? Also when you say neuro are you referring to neuroscience or did you mean neurosurgery specifically?

I ask because I have had horrible luck getting research over the past few years. I went to a big school with a small bio department and the only experience I have got is 3 months over a summer.

I looked up the CVs of the neuroscience faculty at my medical school. Searched for the most prolific PIs and emailed them. I did not reach out to any MD schools. Surprisingly, my DO school is big on research and has millions of dollars in funding - no where near MD school funding I'm sure. Basic neuroscience research was what I was referring to. But also several neurosurgery case reports, reviews, etc.

 

[IDKwhattodoyet]

I dont have any advice to add. I just wanted to say that you are extremely impressive and I hope you match your #1!

 

[coffee-doc]

I would like an update to this thread come match time. I really hope you get your neurosurg spot. I'm rooting for you.

 

[Everglide]

One of my classmates matched osteo neurosx with a ~ 500. Numbers aren't everything and sdn is not representative

 

[Han$olo]

I would like an update to this thread come match time. I really hope you get your neurosurg spot. I'm rooting for you.

You got it coffee-doc!

One of my classmates matched osteo neurosx with a ~ 500. Numbers aren't everything and sdn is not representative

Thanks for the input Everglide. That is very encouraging.

 

[SurgeDO]

congrats on choosing to pursue the best field in medicine. it seems like you are serious about pursuing this wonderful career.

you're going to be participating in a very rough match process next year. it is my opinion that a large portion of AOA neurosurgery programs will be ACGME accredited before the 2018 match. this means that several DO programs will not be particpating in the AOA match next year.

if you have not already, i think you should start reaching out to programs to see if you can get some shadowing experiences going. connections hold a lot of weight in neurosurgery, and attendings like seeing you take a special interest in their program.

feel free to PM me if you have any questions--i'd love to help.

best of luck.

 

[shadowlightfox]

Whoa, how'd you have time to do over 20 publications since beginning med school?

 

[Mr Roboto]

@neusu

 

[neusu]

Unfortunately, I do not know much about the DO system. If he were an MD student applying to MD residencies, he'd have a strong application. As a DO student, applying to MD residencies, he'll likely have a lot of difficulties. This may change in the coming years given the merger of the GME and AOA. Unfortunately, though, only time will tell.

 

[BurghStudent]

For what it's worth there are some ACGME neurosurgery programs that have accepted DO applicants. It's rare, as you might expect, and you can't count on it happening again, but there is precedent. Loma Linda comes to mind:

http://medical-center.lomalindaheal...ms/neurosurgery-residency/2016-2017-residents

Also, check on the AOA Opportunities residency website to get an idea of which programs are converting to ACGME accreditation, or at least attempting to.