DO or SMP?

[Surgeon44]

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sdners,

I am coming here hopefully to find some arguements that I have not thought of. I have been accepted to KCOM and waitlisted at some MDs, but am starting to think about possibly applying to RFU or Loyola for their SMP programs. I know I will do everything it takes to be successful in it and I believe that I will be able to get into their respective MD schools thereafter. I have several reasons why I would consider the SMPs. I want to be in Chicago, (family/friends/gf, that is where I want to practice, and I haven't heard back from CCOM), and my parents really want me to get an MD (I have several other citizenships and so I can practice overseas if the health system gets too bad). I also like the idea of having an extra year of education to prepare me for the board exams.

So my question to you all is what do you all think? Do you think I should just go to KCOM? I am on loans and another 50k just adds to my already mounting debt.

 

[DOwnage]

out of curiousity do you mind sharing your GPA and MCAT score?

I am on loans and another 50k just adds to my already mounting debt.

Won't going through a SMP to take a gamble on an MD spot in a few yrs vs taking a guaranteed DO spot now just pile more money onto the debt? How much more do you envision yourself getting paid as an MD vs a DO?

 

[jcpenny]

sdners,

I am coming here hopefully to find some arguements that I have not thought of. I have been accepted to KCOM and waitlisted at some MDs, but am starting to think about possibly applying to RFU or Loyola for their SMP programs. I know I will do everything it takes to be successful in it and I believe that I will be able to get into their respective MD schools thereafter. I have several reasons why I would consider the SMPs. I want to be in Chicago, (family/friends/gf, that is where I want to practice, and I haven't heard back from CCOM), and my parents really want me to get an MD (I have several other citizenships and so I can practice overseas if the health system gets too bad). I also like the idea of having an extra year of education to prepare me for the board exams.

So my question to you all is what do you all think? Do you think I should just go to KCOM? I am on loans and another 50k just adds to my already mounting debt.

Well, If I were in your position, I would take KCOM acceptance and run with it for the following reasons:
1) You can never be sure that you WILL get into those MD schools, even with the SMP. SMPs are ridiculously hard, do bad in the SMPs and you can be sure that your med school dream is forever gone.
2) Giving up a med school acceptance is just bad. If you don't want to go DO, why applied there in the first place? I am not sure if there is a system where med schools can see whether or not you have been accepted in the past, if there is, I don't think adcoms would be impressed seeing that you have given up a med school acceptance in the past.
3) While DO degree is less widely recognized around the world than MD, there is a good number of countries that do not recognize the US MD degree either. MD does not mean universal practice rights.
4)SMPs are expensive, and you want to graduate med school with the smallest amount of loan possible. Plain and simple.
5)I don't think an extra year of SMP education will prepare you for the board exams, maybe for your MS1 but definitely not the board exams.

Take the acceptance and run with it. You will become a physician one year earlier, done with schooling one year earlier and save tons of money.


My $0.02

 

[Instatewaiter]

out of curiousity do you mind sharing your GPA and MCAT score?

To add to that:

What do you want to do?
General Peds? Gen IM? FP? Psych? Neuro? Ortho? Neurosurg? Uro?

 

[FutureCTDoc]

Get a DO, the SMP is another year and another 50K. Also DOs can practice in many jurisdictions around the world. The DO and MD, however will usually require a residency in whatever foreign jurisdiction you'd like to practice in. Also, the US would have a long way to fall to hit most of Europe's level of pay. The US pays the best followed by Canada and the UK, there is no sign that the US will lose its top spot even as the other options become comparatively less bad.

 

[Surgeon44]

Thanks for all the input.

Low GPA (3.3ish), MCAT 28S

Ideally, I would love to do Derm, but again, I am realistic about the difficulty of getting into a program. Backup would be to become a hospitalist after IM.

To comment about the $ issue, I don't mind the extra year. My loans will be sizeable and in the end they will get paid off.

Would i be able to defer the acceptance? I really like KCOM and I like osteopathic medicine, I guess the the reason I am giving the SMP so much thought is because I can be in Chicago.

Sorry I'm all over the place.

 

[group_theory]

sdners,

I am coming here hopefully to find some arguements that I have not thought of. I have been accepted to KCOM and waitlisted at some MDs, but am starting to think about possibly applying to RFU or Loyola for their SMP programs. I know I will do everything it takes to be successful in it and I believe that I will be able to get into their respective MD schools thereafter. I have several reasons why I would consider the SMPs. I want to be in Chicago, (family/friends/gf, that is where I want to practice, and I haven't heard back from CCOM), and my parents really want me to get an MD (I have several other citizenships and so I can practice overseas if the health system gets too bad). I also like the idea of having an extra year of education to prepare me for the board exams.

So my question to you all is what do you all think? Do you think I should just go to KCOM? I am on loans and another 50k just adds to my already mounting debt.

Everyone starting an SMP program is going in with the same thought, the same plan, and the same goal. It's not just how well motivated you are, but how motivated and how hungry you are compare to your classmates, who are also motivated and hungry. You are all fighting for limited spots in those respective MD schools.

At the same time, your application won't really be much improved by the time you reapply (unless you decide to wait another year before re-applying). By the time you have some meaningful grades from your SMP, should you decide to apply that year, you would be horribly late in the game (for both MD and DO schools). Such is the nature of doing postbac or SMP in general.

$50k for tuition + living expenses (in Chicago) seems a bit low. It will likely be higher unless you work while doing SMP (but then you run the risk of not having enough time to dedicate towards your classes).
Also think about the interest on your undergraduate loans as they accumulate. Also think about the opportunity cost of not starting med school right away - you lose a year's worth of attending salary (whether Derm or Hospitalist/IM). And medical school tuition always goes up every year, waiting a year before starting means paying that little extra percentage.

Thanks for all the input.

Low GPA (3.3ish), MCAT 28S

Ideally, I would love to do Derm, but again, I am realistic about the difficulty of getting into a program. Backup would be to become a hospitalist after IM.

To comment about the $ issue, I don't mind the extra year. My loans will be sizeable and in the end they will get paid off.

Would i be able to defer the acceptance? I really like KCOM and I like osteopathic medicine, I guess the the reason I am giving the SMP so much thought is because I can be in Chicago.

Sorry I'm all over the place.

Loyola Stritch School of Admission
Total GPA 3.59 (sGPA 3.50)
MCAT 31.4 (sum of 3 sections)
http://www.meddean.luc.edu/node/55

Chicago Medical School/RFU (Entering Class of 2006)
Total GPA 3.45 (sGPA 3.39)
MCAT 29.15
http://www.rosalindfranklin.edu/dnn/administration/Admissions/CMS/2006class/tabid/1684/Default.aspx



Just realize that your GPA and MCAT is already below the mean for both schools (and that they have decided NOT to interview you already this application cycle). It's a gamble that you have to decide whether it is worth risking. For some it might be worthwhile. For others, maybe not.

Not sure if KCOM offers deferral of acceptances. Usually schools want a good reason for deferral (attending SMP in hopes of LCME school is usually not a good reason). Just realize that you will be signing a contract if offerred a deferral and if the school finds out that you lie, KCOM can rescind the acceptance (as well as inform your future school of your "unprofessional behavior"). Always a nice way to start your medical training career - with a lie (and a worry that your new school may rescind the offer of acceptance).

 

[Surgeon44]

thanks,

very helpful!

 

[JaggerPlate]

sdners,

I am coming here hopefully to find some arguements that I have not thought of. I have been accepted to KCOM and waitlisted at some MDs, but am starting to think about possibly applying to RFU or Loyola for their SMP programs. I know I will do everything it takes to be successful in it and I believe that I will be able to get into their respective MD schools thereafter. I have several reasons why I would consider the SMPs. I want to be in Chicago, (family/friends/gf, that is where I want to practice, and I haven't heard back from CCOM), and my parents really want me to get an MD (I have several other citizenships and so I can practice overseas if the health system gets too bad). I also like the idea of having an extra year of education to prepare me for the board exams.

So my question to you all is what do you all think? Do you think I should just go to KCOM? I am on loans and another 50k just adds to my already mounting debt.

Just to add some perspective (not trying to be an ass), but my GPA and MCAT are higher than yours and I'm starting KCOM in the Fall.

A few things:

1. Your stats right now are too low for regular MD acceptance. I'm not sure what your waitlist situation is, but I wouldn't advise anyone with a 3.3 and sub 30 to expect US Allo.

2. Your stats are in line (GPA a little low) for DO.

3. KCOM is a fantastic program, and I wouldn't overlook this

4. SMPs are designed for students with a low GPA and a high MCAT to prove they can rock classes. Your GPA is fine for SMP, but your MCAT is too low. SMPs are for 3.3/33s, not 3.3/28

5. Frankly, you'd be spending 50k, a year, another go at the MCAT, all while giving up an awesome, confirmed acceptance and NO guarantees for next year.

If you don't want to go DO ... it's really no sweat. Go SMP and don't look back. However, if your reasons are simply to stay in Chicago, etc ... I'd just go to KCOM.

 

[gatewasani]

I definitely feel you on this...

if I were you, I would just pray I got into CCOM and if I didn't I would go to KCOM and try to transfer after two years.

Med school is med school

 

[JaggerPlate]

I definitely feel you on this...

if I were you, I would just pray I got into CCOM and if I didn't I would go to KCOM and try to transfer after two years.

Med school is med school

Transferring, for all intents and purposes, is impossible. It's not a good idea to ever plan on transferring. From my understanding, it's granted for things like family illness, spouse moving, i.e. BIG things ... and it's even hard in these instances.

 

[jslo85]

I don't see what the significant problem is here.

I see within the next 5 years for you that you will have to relocate anyway away from Chicago. Whether it be at CCOM during your 3rd and 4th year rotations or when you match for residency. Unless you managed to land all your residencies within the Chicago area, you'd be rotating away from home and only returning for your shelfs.

At KCOM, one of the advantages to attending the oldest osteopathic school and one of the most established is the choice of where you wish to do your rotations. KCOM has many clinical affiliates and is established enough to ensure that you can plan most of your rotations in that one area. Besides the core ones that will have to be done (if Illinois) in Bloomington, Carbondale, Springfield or Decatur, I'm sure (someone can correct me on this if i'm wrong) that you can plan to spend most of your time close to your home for your 3rd and 4th years.

CCOM is a great school no doubt about that but KCOM is also within the top 5 as well.

Also, unless you are currently accepted in an SMP, you're pretty much incredibly late to start considering them. Your stats like JP has stated are well below the competitive allopathic applicant in both GPA and MCAT. To "consider" the SMP route (going w/ the assumption you haven't applied to any yet) would set you back about a year to apply out this November or December and be entering the SMP June/Fall class of 2011. You're looking at 1 year off your peak income as a physician in the future which could be anywhere from 140-250,000 dollars as compared to if you started at KCOM this fall. Then add the SMP tuition cost (let's say 30,000 per year) and however long the SMP lasts (1-2 years) so you're looking at 2 years being behind at the very least and missing out on 310,000-530,000 dollars not factoring in the living costs of having to settle in the area for the program and assuming you will be able to apply and get accepted into an MD program WHILE in the SMP.

 

[RELAX11]

4. Your GPA is fine for SMP, but your MCAT is too low. SMPs are for 3.3/33s, not 3.3/28

This is just false!


There are many smp programs that will take a 28 mcat, even some very good ones. Boston University is one you can get in with a gre. Believe me I got accepted to to many with a 27.

I would advise you do your own research rather than listen to ignorance.

On the other hand I wouldn't recommend one if you are already accepted to kcom.

 

[antapolar]

This is just false!


There are many smp programs that will take a 28 mcat, even some very good ones. Boston University is one you can get in with a gre. Believe me I got accepted to to many with a 27.

I would advise you do your own research rather than listen to ignorance.

On the other hand I wouldn't recommend one if you are already accepted to kcom.

Actually i'll have to agree with jagger on this one. The better SMP programs (one's that puts you alongside with MS-1 in class, only last 1 yr with possible guarantee interview)...yeah his MCAT aren't enough. I had a similar stats too 3.3 cgpa with 29R...and didn't make it any. Its true maybe you are lucky, get in some other thesis base SMP w/e, but the MCAT would still hold you back on US allo schools.

Since you say you have many citizenships, you can check out if DO are eligible to practice there. Like previously mentioned, what's wrong with 2 yrs in KCOM then trying to do rotations then residency at chicago. Good luck with your choices.

 

[RELAX11]

Actually i'll have to agree with jagger on this one. The better SMP programs (one's that puts you alongside with MS-1 in class, only last 1 yr with possible guarantee interview)...yeah his MCAT aren't enough. I had a similar stats too 3.3 cgpa with 29R...and didn't make it any. Its true maybe you are lucky, get in some other thesis base SMP w/e, but the MCAT would still hold you back on US allo schools.

Since you say you have many citizenships, you can check out if DO are eligible to practice there. Like previously mentioned, what's wrong with 2 yrs in KCOM then trying to do rotations then residency at chicago. Good luck with your choices.

Not true. You can even get into programs with ms1 students. You might have trouble with the top 2 smps but there are still about 15 other respectable programs. Believe me I painstakingly researched about 30 smps. Rosalind Franklin has one that he can get into easily.

 

[saylorsdad]

ok now is when you need to check the pre-med md/do at the door. you will be a us licensed physician with the ability to specialize in what ever you earn through your own hard work that goes for md/do. don't give up your hard earned spot for a chance admission.

 

[sideways]

You need to work on your decision-making skills, because this is an absolute no-brainer. My advice would be smack yourself in the face, as you're very close to taking a hot steaming piss onto on your future.

Turning down KCOM for the SMP will blacklist you from osteopathic medicine. So now all you'll have is the SMP and a prayer. Then imagine doing the SMP and not getting accepted to any allopathic programs (which is more likely than not). Have fun living with THAT.

It's a very real possibility too. Everyone thinks they're going to tear up their SMP. Guess what, you may not. It's similar to how everyone thinks they're going to be top of their class in med school too. Guess what, most aren't. Even if you do well in the SMP, it doesn't mean jack. You could still not get in anywhere (very common).

The rest of your life is a long time to live knowing you could have been a physician, but naively shot yourself in the foot.

 

[Andres Ponce]

.

 

[RELAX11]

ok now is when you need to check the pre-med md/do at the door. you will be a us licensed physician with the ability to specialize in what ever you earn through your own hard work that goes for md/do. don't give up your hard earned spot for a chance admission.

Out of curiosity would there be any us medical school md or do in which you had only one acceptance to that you would turn down in order to do an smp? Put aside the whole you apply where you want to go why would you apply somewhere you wouldn't want to go argument.

Anybody feel free to answer

 

[saylorsdad]

no there is no us medical school anyone who is sane should turn down for smp. if you want to practice medicine and you apply and are accepted you go to medical school. not a smp.

 

[mspeedwagon]

I agree with the rest of your post, but judging from all of my friends in med school, they were just happy to get in. I don't think many medical school students think they are going to be top of their class. I can tell you, I myself will just be happy to get in (I highly doubt I'll be top of my medical school class).

It's similar to how everyone thinks they're going to be top of their class in med school too.

 

[jslo85]

This is just false!


There are many smp programs that will take a 28 mcat, even some very good ones. Boston University is one you can get in with a gre. Believe me I got accepted to to many with a 27.

I would advise you do your own research rather than listen to ignorance.

On the other hand I wouldn't recommend one if you are already accepted to kcom.

That is purely subjective of a statement. Even if you want to play hypotheticals that he got into BU MAMS, what are the chances that he would end up back in Chicago? BU MAMS isn't a high linkage program and only accepts 20-25 of their students from their own class of 180 into Boston University. Furthermore it's 40,000 per year and it requires you to finish your first year before applying to qualify for the committee letter, putting you at a minimum of 3 years before you can matriculate into medical school, saying you apply out this fall and get accepted into BU MAMS/GMS class of 2011 and apply out of MAMS your second year to get accepted in 2013. That's 80,000 dollars of tuition and 3 years off of your peak income as a physician had you gone taken the seat to attend KCOM. Let's say your peak income is 200,000 for 3 years that's 600,000 + 80,000 = 680,000 not including interest from those loans as well as the other cost of attendances including living in Boston etc. Then you need to deal with the uncertainty that you might not even get into medical school right away as an acceptance in an SMP hardly equates to an acceptance into medical school. Then you have to consider the very realistic possibility that he might not even get into a school in Chicago which is the whole purpose for this post. There are only 2 SMPs in Chicago (CCOM MBS and RFU MSBS) unless you want to consider the traditional M.S. degrees offered at LUC.

Are you really posting to offer advice for the OP? Or idiotically arguing for the sake of trying to point out that someone is wrong in your mind in SDN?

Not true. You can even get into programs with ms1 students. You might have trouble with the top 2 smps but there are still about 15 other respectable programs. Believe me I painstakingly researched about 30 smps. Rosalind Franklin has one that he can get into easily.

Top 2 SMPs? I'm assuming you're referring to Gtown SMP and which other? EVMS? UCinn? BU MAMS? Tufts MBS? His stats are below par for Gtown SMP in both GPA and MCAT and if you really want to talk about getting into other medical schools after a "successful" completion of Gtown, there are numerous posts by current Gtown SMPers who have a 3.7 in the program who have yet to be accepted to any medical school.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=9499026&postcount=227

(current Gtown SMP student with a 3.7 in the program and yet to be accepted anywhere. His MCAT is also a 37R with UG stats of 3.1)

This is RFU's 2006 entering class stats

http://www.rosalindfranklin.edu/dnn/administration/Admissions/CMS/2006class/tabid/1684/Default.aspx

It's up to you whether you want to believe ongoing trends that stats should be higher now since several years have passed.

Yes this doesn't include the MSBS class stats I know but it goes to show you that CMS' entering class averages from 4 years ago are higher in both GPA and MCAT to the OP. If AMCAS/AACOMAS matriculant profiles are any indication, those numbers are going up every year.

Are there people with lower GPA/MCAT that have been accepted into MSBS? Sure. But you need to beast the Physiology class and obtain an A against the MS1 average to get accepted in CMS. They boast a rough 70% acceptance from their MSBS class into the medical school which is considered a high linkage but there is always the uncertainty of are you going to be apart of that 70% or 30%. There is also the 36,000 tuition and that extra year that you have taken off not to mention to apply to any other programs outside of CMS, you will be required to take a lag year which will put you up into 3 years before possible matriculation into another medical school. He won't even make the application cycle this round as acceptances have already gone out a week ago for RFU's MSBS class for this fall making it 2 years before he can even concievably matriculate into CMS if all things go his way. (2x200000)+36000 = 436,000 for an uncertain shot at CMS rather than an acceptance from KCOM where you will probably be able to rotate in chicago after 2 years? Really?

 

[RELAX11]

Lack the reading comprehension skills do we?


Never said I recommend for the OP to do a SMP.

That is purely subjective of a statement. Even if you want to play hypotheticals that he got into BU MAMS, what are the chances that he would end up back in Chicago? BU MAMS isn't a high linkage program and only accepts 20-25 of their students from their own class of 180 into Boston University. Furthermore it's 40,000 per year and it requires you to finish your first year before applying to qualify for the committee letter, putting you at a minimum of 3 years before you can matriculate into medical school, saying you apply out this fall and get accepted into BU MAMS/GMS class of 2011 and apply out of MAMS your second year to get accepted in 2013. That's 80,000 dollars of tuition and 3 years off of your peak income as a physician had you gone taken the seat to attend KCOM. Let's say your peak income is 200,000 for 3 years that's 600,000 + 80,000 = 680,000 not including interest from those loans as well as the other cost of attendances including living in Boston etc. Then you need to deal with the uncertainty that you might not even get into medical school right away as an acceptance in an SMP hardly equates to an acceptance into medical school. Then you have to consider the very realistic possibility that he might not even get into a school in Chicago which is the whole purpose for this post. There are only 2 SMPs in Chicago (CCOM MBS and RFU MSBS) unless you want to consider the traditional M.S. degrees offered at LUC.

Are you really posting to offer advice for the OP? Or idiotically arguing for the sake of trying to point out that someone is wrong in your mind in SDN?



Top 2 SMPs? I'm assuming you're referring to Gtown SMP and which other? EVMS? UCinn? BU MAMS? Tufts MBS? His stats are below par for Gtown SMP in both GPA and MCAT and if you really want to talk about getting into other medical schools after a "successful" completion of Gtown, there are numerous posts by current Gtown SMPers who have a 3.7 in the program who have yet to be accepted to any medical school.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=9499026&postcount=227

(current Gtown SMP student with a 3.7 in the program and yet to be accepted anywhere. His MCAT is also a 37R with UG stats of 3.1)

This is RFU's 2006 entering class stats

http://www.rosalindfranklin.edu/dnn/administration/Admissions/CMS/2006class/tabid/1684/Default.aspx

It's up to you whether you want to believe ongoing trends that stats should be higher now since several years have passed.

Yes this doesn't include the MSBS class stats I know but it goes to show you that CMS' entering class averages from 4 years ago are higher in both GPA and MCAT to the OP. If AMCAS/AACOMAS matriculant profiles are any indication, those numbers are going up every year.

Are there people with lower GPA/MCAT that have been accepted into MSBS? Sure. But you need to beast the Physiology class and obtain an A against the MS1 average to get accepted in CMS. They boast a rough 70% acceptance from their MSBS class into the medical school which is considered a high linkage but there is always the uncertainty of are you going to be apart of that 70% or 30%. There is also the 36,000 tuition and that extra year that you have taken off not to mention to apply to any other programs outside of CMS, you will be required to take a lag year which will put you up into 3 years before possible matriculation into another medical school. He won't even make the application cycle this round as acceptances have already gone out a week ago for RFU's MSBS class for this fall making it 2 years before he can even concievably matriculate into CMS if all things go his way. (2x200000)+36000 = 436,000 for an uncertain shot at CMS rather than an acceptance from KCOM where you will probably be able to rotate in chicago after 2 years? Really?

 

[p30doc]

Go to KCOM. Also regarding practicing internationally, do you know the practice rights of US MD's vs US DO's in the countries you are interested in. Do you know about the reimbursement policies in those countries for either? I have heard of at least one country allowing full practice rights but then making it impossible to get reimbursed, which is great if you like working for free.

If you hadn't noticed doctors aren't well paid in most cases compared to the US, because a) in many other places school is free if you can get accepted b) the system is socialized c) the country isn't as rich or certainly doesn't spend as much of its GDP per capita on healthcare. So if things get "bad" here in the US because of healthcare reform as you stated you will likely still be better off than practicing in these other countries.

 

[jslo85]

It's not so much you recommending the OP to do SMPs as to why you would even add pointless information to argue with others in this thread about innane details while they are clearly pointing him in the realistic direction.

The OP's stats aren't even competitive for top level SMPs and for that matter, no successful SMP performance will guarantee you acceptance anywhere other than their own medical school in which you would have to place within the very top of their class to ensure that "guarantee" that would be unofficial.

The OP made it clear he wanted to stay in Chicago. Why bring up BU MAMS? His stats are even on the low end for that. Oh yes, you want to display your own knowledge because obviously "Believe me I painstakingly researched about 30 smps" which is oh so useful for the OP to know since he was making an @ss move by bringing this up in the first place.

Point is it was not needed and you reiterated yourself by posting again with more information about the RFU SMP when it clearly doesn't follow common sense for anyone to even consider that route

 

[DOxidant]

oh well... gotta do what you feel like to do

If your goal is to have MD after your name, I'll do SMP

If your goal is to become a physician ASAP and help who are in needs, I'll go to KCOM and try to become the damn best doctor as possible

😉

G'luck w/ ur decision

 

[Instatewaiter]

OK, everyone calm down a bit. The OP is asking because he is curious. He is getting a bit of a one sided answer since he posted this in the pre-osteo forum and everyone is taking this as an attack on osteopathic med schools. The same question comes up in the pre-allo forum when someone was shooting for UCSF/Haaavad/Hopkins and the like but got into a "low tier" MD school.

4. SMPs are designed for students with a low GPA and a high MCAT to prove they can rock classes. Your GPA is fine for SMP, but your MCAT is too low. SMPs are for 3.3/33s, not 3.3/28

I agree that the MCAT is a bit low and will hurt his/her chances but it is by no means too low for an acceptance after a good performance in an SMP. It is something to take into consideration in the decision since a 30 would improve his/her chances significantly.

Point is it was not needed and you reiterated yourself by posting again with more information about the RFU SMP when it clearly doesn't follow common sense for anyone to even consider that route

The "should I do an SMP instead" question comes up multiple times a year on this board whether in the pre-allo or pre-osteo so clearly a lot of people consider it. People always ask, "well why did you apply to a school you didn't want to go to?"

The answer is that people don't really consider what they would do if the got into one of their "back-up" schools- whether it be a "low tier" MD school or a DO school or whatever. Cut the guy some slack, answer his question and keep it civil.

Personally I think that unless he really knows he wants to do something ubber competitive, it would be dumb to give up an acceptance. This would be a very different conversation had he only applied to MD schools and didn't get in anywhere. But, since he did apply to DO schools and got in, he should take the acceptance. While there still may be some stigma when applying to ACGME residency programs it is by no means big enough to completely close one option (DO) to shoot for MD- especially when he's already been rejected from the MD schools he applied to. By giving up his acceptance, he could piss off the DO side and never have that option available.

 

[scotchtapetest]

sdners,

I am coming here hopefully to find some arguements that I have not thought of. I have been accepted to KCOM and waitlisted at some MDs, but am starting to think about possibly applying to RFU or Loyola for their SMP programs. I know I will do everything it takes to be successful in it and I believe that I will be able to get into their respective MD schools thereafter. I have several reasons why I would consider the SMPs. I want to be in Chicago, (family/friends/gf, that is where I want to practice, and I haven't heard back from CCOM), and my parents really want me to get an MD (I have several other citizenships and so I can practice overseas if the health system gets too bad). I also like the idea of having an extra year of education to prepare me for the board exams.

So my question to you all is what do you all think? Do you think I should just go to KCOM? I am on loans and another 50k just adds to my already mounting debt.

Definitely withdraw from KCOM ASAP…. Obviously you do not want to be an osteopathic physician and more importantly your parents “really want [you] to get an MD” so that sums it up as far as I’m concerned. There are hundreds of people who would kill to be in your position with an acceptance offer from KCOM.



If you have any doubts about the osteopathic profession this is your LAST chance to not be a part of it, besides failing out in the next 4-5 years. Unlike your many other citizenships, you can’t even renounce it once you get it. So, if you, your parents, gf, neighbors, family pet, etc. will not be satisfied with your DO initials and that is what you value, PLEASE withdraw from KCOM.


So do us all a favor, withdraw from KCOM do whatever program that makes you and your parents happy and let a deserving soul take your spot at KCOM. Just make sure you know who that person is so when he/she is your resident while you are his/her medical student or lab technician if you don’t get in anywhere else, you guys can have something to chat about!



So, Best of luck to you and I hope KCOM utilizes a better filtering algorithm in the future….

 

[RELAX11]

Oh how "House MD" alters the mind of our future physicians (as by the choice of your avatar along with 85% of SDN users).Everyone tries to give that harda** answer nowadays. I am not disagreeing with you by the way.

Definitely withdraw from KCOM ASAP…. Obviously you do not want to be an osteopathic physician and more importantly your parents “really want [you] to get an MD” so that sums it up as far as I’m concerned. There are hundreds of people who would kill to be in your position with an acceptance offer from KCOM.



If you have any doubts about the osteopathic profession this is your LAST chance to not be a part of it, besides failing out in the next 4-5 years. Unlike your many other citizenships, you can’t even renounce it once you get it. So, if you, your parents, gf, neighbors, family pet, etc. will not be satisfied with your DO initials and that is what you value, PLEASE withdraw from KCOM.


So do us all a favor, withdraw from KCOM do whatever program that makes you and your parents happy and let a deserving soul take your spot at KCOM. Just make sure you know who that person is so when he/she is your resident while you are his/her medical student or lab technician if you don’t get in anywhere else, you guys can have something to chat about!



So, Best of luck to you and I hope KCOM utilizes a better filtering algorithm in the future….

 

[JaggerPlate]

Definitely withdraw from KCOM ASAP…. Obviously you do not want to be an osteopathic physician and more importantly your parents “really want [you] to get an MD” so that sums it up as far as I’m concerned. There are hundreds of people who would kill to be in your position with an acceptance offer from KCOM.



If you have any doubts about the osteopathic profession this is your LAST chance to not be a part of it, besides failing out in the next 4-5 years. Unlike your many other citizenships, you can’t even renounce it once you get it. So, if you, your parents, gf, neighbors, family pet, etc. will not be satisfied with your DO initials and that is what you value, PLEASE withdraw from KCOM.


So do us all a favor, withdraw from KCOM do whatever program that makes you and your parents happy and let a deserving soul take your spot at KCOM. Just make sure you know who that person is so when he/she is your resident while you are his/her medical student or lab technician if you don’t get in anywhere else, you guys can have something to chat about!



So, Best of luck to you and I hope KCOM utilizes a better filtering algorithm in the future….

ROFL ... I won't comment on the advice (good or bad), but this was pretty damn funny.

 

[Osteo85]

Definitely withdraw from KCOM ASAP…. Obviously you do not want to be an osteopathic physician and more importantly your parents “really want [you] to get an MD” so that sums it up as far as I’m concerned. There are hundreds of people who would kill to be in your position with an acceptance offer from KCOM.



If you have any doubts about the osteopathic profession this is your LAST chance to not be a part of it, besides failing out in the next 4-5 years. Unlike your many other citizenships, you can’t even renounce it once you get it. So, if you, your parents, gf, neighbors, family pet, etc. will not be satisfied with your DO initials and that is what you value, PLEASE withdraw from KCOM.


So do us all a favor, withdraw from KCOM do whatever program that makes you and your parents happy and let a deserving soul take your spot at KCOM. Just make sure you know who that person is so when he/she is your resident while you are his/her medical student or lab technician if you don’t get in anywhere else, you guys can have something to chat about!



So, Best of luck to you and I hope KCOM utilizes a better filtering algorithm in the future….

I agree. So many pre-meds turn their noses up at DO programs, only to secretly apply to them anyways. Many end up taking valuable spots away from very dedicated DO-only applicants.

 

[lakers4ever14]

Ok, unless someone is paying for your education you need to seriously think about taking on more debt. Physicians salaries are decreasing, and it's very unwise to put yourself into more debt than you absolutely have to.

Second, MD and DO are basically the same. The only thing that a DO will absolutely prevent you from doing is ACGME plastics and maybe derm. But (not to be mean) let's be honest, you have a 3.3 and a 28 MCAT. Do you really think you're going to blow up a 240+ on step 1? Not to mention the fact that there are AOA plastics and derm residencies available to ONLY DO students.

Declining a med school acceptance is the HEIGHT of stupidity. They will ask you about it, and unless you have a damn good reason for rejecting an acceptance (hint: you don't) then you're screwed. Keep the KCOM acceptance and suck it up.

While I agree in general with your advice, I disagree with some of the points in your argument.

I have learned several things after both shadowing physicians (both DO and MD), talking with medical professionals, and browsing SDN. First, I have learned that although there are general thruths that can be applied, these are not laws and they are more like trends. To say that simply being a DO will prevent you ABSOLUTELY prevent you from ACGME plastics and Derm is a perpetuation of the notion that a degree, and not the applicant, is what will decide your future. Now, is it unlikely that you will land these residencies? For the most part, yes, but bear in mind, even with an MD, you are fighting significant odds. Look at some applicant profiles, and see what these applicants have accomplished, and you will see that only the cream of the crop are even in the running.

I am not usually one to say go to the match lists because I know how they only show an end result, without showing the thought process, desires, and/or connections that some applicants have to certain locations/facilities, but it does show you what can be accomplished if the applicant is qualified. I am not 100% on this one, but there are far fewer Rad/onc residencies out there than either Derm or plastics, but year after year qualified Applicants with DO's are selected over countless MD applicants. I mean, I cant even remember how many DO's snagged ACGME derm residencies this year, even at the Mayo Clinic.

I know how these things happen, because I went through the same thing, I read something posted by someone, and when I was asked a similar question, I responded with the same info I read. These forums can be an amazing resource (and funny), but I think absolutes are dangerous, because it makes generalizations about almost 5,000 DO graduates each year. This also steers away qualified applicants from a great route to becoming a Doctor. The pre-med DO stigma needs to end, because it is becoming (or has become) extinct in most parts of the healthcare world, and the public.

Just my .02

 

[Slack3r]

While I agree in general with your advice, I disagree with some of the points in your argument.

I have learned several things after both shadowing physicians (both DO and MD), talking with medical professionals, and browsing SDN. First, I have learned that although there are general thruths that can be applied, these are not laws and they are more like trends. To say that simply being a DO will prevent you ABSOLUTELY prevent you from ACGME plastics and Derm is a perpetuation of the notion that a degree, and not the applicant, is what will decide your future. Now, is it unlikely that you will land these residencies? For the most part, yes, but bear in mind, even with an MD, you are fighting significant odds. Look at some applicant profiles, and see what these applicants have accomplished, and you will see that only the cream of the crop are even in the running.

I am not usually one to say go to the match lists because I know how they only show an end result, without showing the thought process, desires, and/or connections that some applicants have to certain locations/facilities, but it does show you what can be accomplished if the applicant is qualified. I am not 100% on this one, but there are far fewer Rad/onc residencies out there than either Derm or plastics, but year after year qualified Applicants with DO's are selected over countless MD applicants. I mean, I cant even remember how many DO's snagged ACGME derm residencies this year, even at the Mayo Clinic.

I know how these things happen, because I went through the same thing, I read something posted by someone, and when I was asked a similar question, I responded with the same info I read. These forums can be an amazing resource (and funny), but I think absolutes are dangerous, because it makes generalizations about almost 5,000 DO graduates each year. This also steers away qualified applicants from a great route to becoming a Doctor. The pre-med DO stigma needs to end, because it is becoming (or has become) extinct in most parts of the healthcare world, and the public.

Just my .02

As far as I know, ther number of DOs that have ever matched plastics are in the single digits. It's near impossible.

 

[dancingDO14]

As far as I know, ther number of DOs that have ever matched plastics are in the single digits. It's near impossible.

Wanna throw some data along with that claim? It's damn near impossible for MDs to get plastics as well...and as for the Mayo derm DO matches, I have seen that on multiple lists for this year. If you're interested I'd be happy to do a quick SDN search and show you the data. I'd seriously check out the DO school match lists for this year before you start saying it's near impossible for DOs to match into competitive ACGME programs, because the lists this year are pretty damn impressive.

In any case, I'm of the mindset that it's the applicant, not the MD/DO designation that matches into the programs. There are so many other factors that go into matching (read: LOCATION, LORs, board scores) other than the degree title.

And hey, bring it on. All these MD/DO arguments just fuel my determination (and I'm sure other DO students) to match into my first choice residency, whether it be AOA or ACGME.

 

[Slack3r]

Wanna throw some data along with that claim? It's damn near impossible for MDs to get plastics as well...and as for the Mayo derm DO matches, I have seen that on multiple lists for this year. If you're interested I'd be happy to do a quick SDN search and show you the data. I'd seriously check out the DO school match lists for this year before you start saying it's near impossible for DOs to match into competitive ACGME programs, because the lists this year are pretty damn impressive.

Settle down, no one is denigrating your (future) degree. Inferiority complex much? And I said derm is hard (but not unattainable for DO's), but ACGME integrated plastics is basically impossible for a DO. Yea, it's hard for everyone, but being a DO is placing another hurdle if your goal is integrated plastics.

However, that's not the point I was making. I was saying that unless you're dead-set on plastics (and you probably won't match anyway) there really isn't any reason NOT to go to a DO school.

 

[christina30]

Settle down, no one is denigrating your (future) degree. Inferiority complex much? And I said derm is hard (but not unattainable for DO's), but ACGME integrated plastics is basically impossible for a DO. Yea, it's hard for everyone, but being a DO is placing another hurdle if your goal is integrated plastics.

However, that's not the point I was making. I was saying that unless you're dead-set on plastics (and you probably won't match anyway) there really isn't any reason NOT to go to a DO school.

There are about 10 ongoing threads with this ridiculous argument right now. Christ.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Eh, just my two cents ...

Slack3r isn't an anti-DO guy, troll, or anything else. He's a good poster, and he's not being offensive or anything there. Essentially, he's just stating that integrated plastics is uber, uber difficult to match for anyone. MD or DO. HOWEVER, a DO applying ACGME integrated plastics is likely to be a some disadvantage (no matter how small), simply because it's so absurdly competitive. In the end, your grades, LORs, away rotations, etc, are going to win out. The ACGME derm matches from KCOM, AZCOM, CCOM, etc, this year are proof of that.

However, it's just something extremely difficult, from either side, and it's most likely going to be more difficult for a DO. Don't take it as insulting ... the average MD student isn't going to waltz into integrated plastics at Mass General simply because they're an MD, nor is a rockstar DO simply going to be immediately cut because they are a DO. It's .005% vs .003% ... not something to beef about. If he was saying DOs can only match FP in the midwest ... that's a different story. But he isn't.

 

[christina30]

My only beef is that I feel like I've been reading the same thread over and over for the past week! 😀

 

[JaggerPlate]

My only beef is that I feel like I've been reading the same thread over and over for the past week! 😀

Wait until you've been around for a few years ... it's groundhog day. You read the same 5 threads over and over again, yet people get pissy when you answer with an eye-roll and say "use the search engine."

 

[NontradICUdoc]

By the way, if you decide to turn down the KCOM acceptance for an SMP to get into an allopathic school, there will be almost no way for you to get an interview if you decide to apply to DO down the road again. And if you do, I can almost guarantee the question of why did you turn down an acceptance will come up and I doubt that any school will accept you. And for tat matter, you must put on your AAMCAS that you applied to medical school and were accepted to a DO school but turned it down. If you do not, they you have lied on your application. And I do not know any admissions officer that would not wonder if you would pull the same stunt with their school.

In addition, I think it is time to grow up and start thinking for yourself and not what your parents want you to do.

Just my opinion.

 

[Instatewaiter]

I'd seriously check out the DO school match lists for this year before you start saying it's near impossible for DOs to match into competitive ACGME programs, because the lists this year are pretty damn impressive.

In any case, I'm of the mindset that it's the applicant, not the MD/DO designation that matches into the programs. There are so many other factors that go into matching (read: LOCATION, LORs, board scores) other than the degree title.

The match lists do show a couple good matches this year. Few people are saying it is outright impossible for DOs to match competitive programs but it is definitely more difficult. Here is some data:http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2009.pdf

Look at table 11 (page 29 of PDF). This is the LAST 5 YEARS DOs matched to:
0- Rad Onc
3 - Derm
1- ENT
1- plastics
16 Ortho
2- neuro surg

Those total numbers for all DOs for 5 years looks about the same as you will find at single a state MD school for a single year. The people who are most vocal about how there is no stigma, are those who have not gone through the process. I find that funny.

Look, it is possible to match competitive programs as a DO, it is just much harder.

And for tat matter, you must put on your AAMCAS that you applied to medical school and were accepted to a DO school but turned it down. If you do not, they you have lied on your application. And I do not know any admissions officer that would not wonder if you would pull the same stunt with their school.

At least when I applied, it asked about MATRICULATION not if you were accepted. He has not matriculated anywhere. Perhaps the application has changed.

 

[NontradICUdoc]

At least when I applied, it asked about MATRICULATION not if you were accepted. He has not matriculated anywhere. Perhaps the application has changed.

I do not remember the exact wording of the application as it has been too long. However, I am sure that you can agree that, this choice needs to be very carefully thought out. Every little detail of an applicant is looked at and anything that may show issues is magnified no matter how big or how small.

The OP basically needs to start making decisions based on his own wants and needs and not what his parents want. We all want to make our parents happy however, we have to live our lives the way that we want to and not how our parents want us to. They had their youth. It may be a matter of just educating the OPs parents, but that is his/her choice.

 

[willen101383]

The thing that makes me laugh about this post is that the OP holds an acceptance to a GREAT DO school. As in been around for 100+ years. Huge alumni base, very established, etc. But with his/her stats, they will likely only get into a low tier/ new MD school. It just shows you how far people will go to get that MD. I was in this situation and I HAD an MD acceptance to a lower tier school. For me picking PCOM over a low level MD program was a freakin no brainer! But to each their own I guess

 

[JaggerPlate]

The thing that makes me laugh about this post is that the OP holds an acceptance to a GREAT DO school. As in been around for 100+ years. Huge alumni base, very established, etc.

Plus, super cool people go there ... 😀

 

[JaggerPlate]

The match lists do show a couple good matches this year. Few people are saying it is outright impossible for DOs to match competitive programs but it is definitely more difficult. Here is some data:http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2009.pdf

Look at table 11 (page 29 of PDF). This is the LAST 5 YEARS DOs matched to:
0- Rad Onc
3 - Derm
1- ENT
1- plastics
16 Ortho
2- neuro surg

Those total numbers for all DOs for 5 years looks about the same as you will find at single a state MD school for a single year. The people who are most vocal about how there is no stigma, are those who have not gone through the process. I find that funny.

Look, it is possible to match competitive programs as a DO, it is just much harder.

I'm essentially on the same page with you, but it is interesting to note that there were several ACGME Rad Onc and Derm matches this year from DO schools (according to the match lists).

 

[Longshanks]

If you have an acceptance, and a few waitlists, then take it. Don't defer or turn it down so you can take an SMP and take a gamble on your chances in the SMP program and roll the dice again on getting an MD acceptance. If you don't want to go take the KCOM acceptance, why did you apply DO?

The whole fuss of MD vs DO practicing rights internationally a full of hyperbole here. Look up what the facts are. DOs can also practice in many countries, if that's your desire. And just like an American DO can't just walk into a foreign country and start practicing, MD's can't either... you'll both have to take licensing exams. MD and DO both can work for Sans Frontieres, etc.

 

[Slack3r]

Slack3r isn't an anti-DO guy, troll, or anything else. He's a good poster, and he's not being offensive or anything there.

Aww, stop. You're making me blush. 😛

 

[JaggerPlate]

Aww, stop. You're making me blush. 😛

😉

 

[Instatewaiter]

I'm essentially on the same page with you, but it is interesting to note that there were several ACGME Rad Onc and Derm matches this year from DO schools (according to the match lists).

Yeah, I saw those. That data I posted does not include anything from this year.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Yeah, I saw those. That data I posted does not include anything from this year.

Oddly enough this list shows that only 2 people matched into neurology. Which is considered one of the easier residencies to match into. Yet why is there a small number of people there? Why? Because likely many didn't like neurology and simply did not apply to it. I mean I find it odd that people believe that everyone wants derma or rads or other things?

But less not forget the DO match. I think if we remember that there are DO only residencies which are open to just a small population of ~2,000 DO graduates.