DO over MD?

[Parts Unknown]

That isn't how the NRMP does either. A friend of mine was withdrawn from the ACGME match after matching AOA and he was considered unmatched in the ACGME match, not inactive.

I don't think so. The NRMP data (Table 4, Page 9) separates the active and withdrew pools.

US Allopathic Seniors:
Total: 16,008
Active: 15,638 (100%)
Matched: 14,566 (93.1%)
Unmatched: 1,072 (6.9%)
Withdrew: 303
No Rank List: 67

Osteopathic Students/Graduates:
Total: 2,875
Active: 2,015 (100%)
Matched: 1,408 (69.9%)
Unmatched: 607 (30.1%)
Withdrew: 706
No Rank List: 154

As you can see, only 1.9% of the total US allopathic seniors withdrew, while 24.6% of the osteopathic applicants did. I assume this disparity is explained by most of those 706 matching through the AOA.

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[Parts Unknown]

No offense, but most of what you said in this thread is nothing more than conjecture based on inaccurate information. I pointed it out above.

Again, could you be more specific?

 

[Parts Unknown]

One DO DID match Rad Onc. And not for nothing, but if we're talking ROADS, then let's talk ROADS.

R stands for rads. At KCUMB, three people matched MD diagnostic rads.

O stands for ortho. At LECOM-B, two people matched MD ortho.

A stands for anesthesiology. At KCUMB again, eight people matched MD anesthesiology, including one going to Hopkins and one going to Mayo.

D stands for Derm. Derm is hard to distinguish because in order to match derm as a DO, you must complete a transitional year first, then match derm for your remaining three years.

Not a ROAD specialty, but someone from Touro NV matched MD neurosurg.

I have not seen anyone make the argument that it is impossible to match into competitive specialties as a DO, merely that it is more difficult. With regards to the allopathic ROAD, here are the numbers:

2009 Match:

Total active allopathic participants (seniors and graduates): 16,860

Total active osteopathic participants (seniors and graduates): 2,015

Ratio of Allos to Osteos: 8.37

Radiology matches (PGY1 and PGY2):
MD: 987
DO: 39
Ratio: 25.3

Orthopedic surgery:
MD: 620
DO: 5
Ratio: 124

Anesthesiology (PGY1 and PGY2):
MD: 1,144
DO: 101
Ratio: 11.3

Dermatology (PGY1 and PGY2):
MD: 328
DO: 1
Ratio: 328

The point is, if you work hard, you an accomplish your career goals as a DO.

That's a foolish statement not worthy of anyone. There are many medical students, allopathic and osteopathic, who cannot achieve their goals despite their best efforts. For example, there were several would-be dermies, ENTers, and surgeons in my class who just couldn't pull it off. The worked themselves blue, but in the end had to match into other specialties and go about being happy as they were.

 

[hopefuldoc87]

I have not seen anyone make the argument that it is impossible to match into competitive specialties as a DO, merely that it is more difficult. With regards to the allopathic ROAD, here are the numbers:

2009 Match:

Total active allopathic participants (seniors and graduates): 16,860

Total active osteopathic participants (seniors and graduates): 2,015

Ratio of Allos to Osteos: 8.37

Radiology matches (PGY1 and PGY2):
MD: 987
DO: 39
Ratio: 25.3

Orthopedic surgery:
MD: 620
DO: 5
Ratio: 124

Anesthesiology (PGY1 and PGY2):
MD: 1,144
DO: 101
Ratio: 11.3

Dermatology (PGY1 and PGY2):
MD: 328
DO: 1
Ratio: 328

Why is ROADs still being talked about? So 146 DOs got matched into MD ROADs. First off, you don't know how many total DOs applied. What if 146 DOs applied? What if 1000 applied? There's no point in debating these numbers, just know it's POSSIBLE, not IMPOSSIBLE. Even if you do know the number that applied, we still don't know how many people dropped out of the ACGME match when they matched in the AOA. So, quit citing these numbers unless you're trying to say it's possible.

Pre-meds think that medicine is all about ROADs. I understand you don't want to close any doors, but there'll be a time when you realize maybe a ROAD residency isn't for you. For the large majority of medical students, this is the case. And you won't know this until your clinical years anyways, so just stop with this ROAD talk. Percentage wise, this won't matter to the majority of people in this thread.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I have not seen anyone make the argument that it is impossible to match into competitive specialties as a DO, merely that it is more difficult. With regards to the allopathic ROAD, here are the numbers:

2009 Match:

Total active allopathic participants (seniors and graduates): 16,860

Total active osteopathic participants (seniors and graduates): 2,015

Ratio of Allos to Osteos: 8.37

Radiology matches (PGY1 and PGY2):
MD: 987
DO: 39
Ratio: 25.3

Orthopedic surgery:
MD: 620
DO: 5
Ratio: 124

Anesthesiology (PGY1 and PGY2):
MD: 1,144
DO: 101
Ratio: 11.3

Dermatology (PGY1 and PGY2):
MD: 328
DO: 1
Ratio: 328



That's a foolish statement not worthy of anyone. There are many medical students, allopathic and osteopathic, who cannot achieve their goals despite their best efforts. For example, there were several would-be dermies, ENTers, and surgeons in my class who just couldn't pull it off. The worked themselves blue, but in the end had to match into other specialties and go about being happy as they were.

That DO in MD derm is a certified bad ass.

 

[hopefuldoc87]

That DO in MD derm is a certified bad ass.

I would love it if he were on SDN. To be able to just chime and say, "Yea Jagger, that's me", would be legit.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

That's a foolish statement not worthy of anyone. There are many medical students, allopathic and osteopathic, who cannot achieve their goals despite their best efforts. For example, there were several would-be dermies, ENTers, and surgeons in my class who just couldn't pull it off. The worked themselves blue, but in the end had to match into other specialties and go about being happy as they were.

I said you CAN accomplish your career goals, no you "will" accomplish your career goals. In other words, it's possible to accomplish your career goals as a DO, if you work hard. While you're painting this picture of gloom and doom for DOs, I'm simply saying that DO students who work hard have every bit a chance as their MD counterparts to open doors. A poor student is a poor student no matter where he/she is. You said yourself. In your class, several didn't make it to the specialty they wanted. It had nothing to do with their initials since you presumably went to an MD school. It was just them. So why is it that when that happens with DO students, you want to blame it on the DO?

 

[Daedra22]

Why is ROADs still being talked about? So 146 DOs got matched into MD ROADs. First off, you don't know how many total DOs applied. What if 146 DOs applied? What if 1000 applied? There's no point in debating these numbers, just know it's POSSIBLE, not IMPOSSIBLE. Even if you do know the number that applied, we still don't know how many people dropped out of the ACGME match when they matched in the AOA. So, quit citing these numbers unless you're trying to say it's possible.

Pre-meds think that medicine is all about ROADs. I understand you don't want to close any doors, but there'll be a time when you realize maybe a ROAD residency isn't for you. For the large majority of medical students, this is the case. And you won't know this until your clinical years anyways, so just stop with this ROAD talk. Percentage wise, this won't matter to the majority of people in this thread.

I <3 your logic.

 

[Parts Unknown]

Why is ROADs still being talked about?

In a scientific sense the ROAD specialties probably best exemplify the lingering bias against DOs. Derm is a good example. Derm is lusted after by allopathic students for its high pay, low hours, and low call. Does this attraction suddenly vanish in the osteopathic world? I doubt it, but according to you very few DO students want to bother with it.

Alas, this is how it bears out in many other situations. There are regions and programs that are DO friendly and DO neutral, and those that are DO unfriendly and DO hostile. As an MD you get to avoid this whole mess. Conversely, attending a particular DO school may have benefits that offset these drawbacks.

just know it's POSSIBLE, not IMPOSSIBLE.

This is a curious strategy for career planning. I would much rather know what is likely than what is possible. I could win PowerBall next week, should we all plan on that?

 

[Parts Unknown]

That DO in MD derm is a certified bad ass.

True dat.

 

[JaggerPlate]

AOA, DO only derm residencies ...

 

[Parts Unknown]

While you're painting this picture of gloom and doom for DOs,

I don't see it as gloom and doom, and never intended it as such. I prefer my view as realistic, although I am as inherently flawed as any human posting here.

 

[Limvostov]

As far as ROADS goes... I was under the impression that the O was for Ophthalmology not Orthopaedic Surgery. Is this wrong?

 

[Parts Unknown]

AOA, DO only derm residencies ...

I recently checked out the 21 of them, and you could have knocked me over with a feather when I saw the hospital I was born in on the list. Ah, the memories.

 

[JaggerPlate]

As far as ROADS goes... I was under the impression that the O was for Ophthalmology not Orthopaedic Surgery. Is this wrong?

I always thought it was:

Radiology (they've got huge medicare cuts coming)
Ophthalmology (they are supposed to get a nice bump, but I'd personally worry about ODs lobbying to do more)
Anesthesiology (they've got cuts + CRNA/AA pressure)
Dermatology (the mecca, always protected because of low, low number of residency spots and the ability to fall back on legit cosmetics)
Surgical sub-specialties (ENT, Ortho, etc - these are kind of debatable I guess)

** the comments about medicare cuts, etc, are just from what I've heard/read from stuff posted on SDN.

 

[Parts Unknown]

As far as ROADS goes... I was under the impression that the O was for Ophthalmology not Orthopaedic Surgery. Is this wrong?

You are correct, but the ophtho match is done through the SF match, and we don't have that data. So just close your eyes and pretend it's ortho. And that the ACGME runs the match.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I recently checked out the 21 of them, and you could have knocked me over with a feather when I saw the hospital I was born in on the list. Ah, the memories.

Yup, 21, most with a couple of spots per year ... it's rough and competitive, but it is no matter how you slice it (MD gunning for ACGME, DO gunning for ACGME, DO gunning for AOA). My guess is that it's technically easier (strict numbers wise) for MD to match ACGME derm, but it's pretty nice for DOs to have AOA residencies that only they can apply to, to rely on in fields like derm.

 

[Parts Unknown]

Pre-meds think that medicine is all about ROADs. I understand you don't want to close any doors, but there'll be a time when you realize maybe a ROAD residency isn't for you. For the large majority of medical students, this is the case. And you won't know this until your clinical years anyways, so just stop with this ROAD talk. Percentage wise, this won't matter to the majority of people in this thread.

Percentage wise you are probably right, but when you are starting school you never know on which side of the percentage you will fall, eh?

 

[Parts Unknown]

Yup, 21, most with a couple of spots per year ... it's rough and competitive, but it is no matter how you slice it (MD gunning for ACGME, DO gunning for ACGME, DO gunning for AOA). My guess is that it's technically easier (strict numbers wise) for MD to match ACGME derm, but it's pretty nice for DOs to have AOA residencies that only they can apply to, to rely on in fields like derm.

I agree, but here's the real bitch: I don't think the AOA residencies are as good as the allopathic ones.

There. I said it. Call me whatever you want. But in terms of volume, complexity, and research opportunities I doubt the average AOA derm residency can match the average allo one.

 

[Parts Unknown]

Mine too! Go LVH!

Bacchus, have I ever told you that I love your avatar(s)?

 

[dokein]

I always thought it was:

Radiology (they've got huge medicare cuts coming)
Ophthalmology (they are supposed to get a nice bump, but I'd personally worry about ODs lobbying to do more)
Anesthesiology (they've got cuts + CRNA/AA pressure)
Dermatology (the mecca, always protected because of low, low number of residency spots and the ability to fall back on legit cosmetics)
Surgical sub-specialties (ENT, Ortho, etc - these are kind of debatable I guess)

** the comments about medicare cuts, etc, are just from what I've heard/read from stuff posted on SDN.

I thought R was specifically Radiation-Oncology, but wouldn't be more than $5 on that.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I agree, but here's the real bitch: I don't think the AOA residencies are as good as the allopathic ones.

There. I said it. Call me whatever you want. But in terms of volume, complexity, and research opportunities I doubt the average AOA derm residency can match the average allo one.

It's hard to argue, but let me put it this way ....

Going to a residency that will allow you to make a very, very nice chunk of change, working 9-5, no calls, etc >>> not going to that residency because they didn't get a high enough volume? Derm is such a scarce field right now that just about any derm in the country can't even take on more patients and have like 3 month waiting lists just to get in, no matter what KIND of derm residency you did. Again, call me whatever you want, but I'd seriously sleep fine at night knowing that I was a derm through a residency certified by the AOA, even if I didn't get the volume or complexity one would see on an ACGME residency. I really think the ends justify the means here, and I really don't think there is any proof that this would make you a worse dermatologist compared to someone who dealt with more zebras and less horses.

 

[link2swim06]

I agree, but here's the real bitch: I don't think the AOA residencies are as good as the allopathic ones.

There. I said it. Call me whatever you want. But in terms of volume, complexity, and research opportunities I doubt the average AOA derm residency can match the average allo one.

The same said could be said comparing state-school residencies to ivy leagues....

If you get board certified nobody is going to care unless you are wanting to do academic medicine or something.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I thought R was specifically Radiation-Oncology, but wouldn't be more than $5 on that.

Hmmm, weird. I always thought/heard it was Rads. Maybe 'Rads' encompasses Diagnostic and Rad-Onc??

 

[hopefuldoc87]

In a scientific sense the ROAD specialties probably best exemplify the lingering bias against DOs. Derm is a good example. Derm is lusted after by allopathic students for its high pay, low hours, and low call. Does this attraction suddenly vanish in the osteopathic world? I doubt it, but according to you very few DO students want to bother with it.

Ok. You win. Not as many DO's get into the MD derm residencies. But my point was how does this affect the 97% of DO students who don't apply for MD derm? Quit putting such an emphasis on one residency just because it fits your theories.

This is a curious strategy for career planning. I would much rather know what is likely than what is possible. I could win PowerBall next week, should we all plan on that?

Let's break this down, shall we?

Someone wanted to know whether they should go DO over MD, and what the drawbacks were to going DO.

Someone then said that going DO would make it harder to get ROAD residencies.

Another poster said, wait a second, here's an example of some students that went to DO school and got said MD ROAD residencies. Not that it's easy or anything, just possible.

You quoted some NRMP numbers showing the statistics.

I responded saying that I thought those numbers aren't meant to prove or disprove the likelihood of getting into a competetive MD residency as a DO, just that its possible. This was due to the fact there were other variables in that data that we do not know, so you can't draw a solid conclusion on the statistics and probability.


Of course we all would rather go after something that is more likely than possible. I'm not saying to go play the lottery just because it's possible. Just don't say this data that you present from the NRMP is solid proof that DO's have it harder, because you don't know the rest of the variables. What you CAN say though is that it IS possible for a DO to get into a ROAD residency. Likely? I dunno. It's competetive for EVERY applicant, MD or DO. Possible? Yes. But again, this won't matter for 90+% of DO students, so why discuss this further?

Based on your reasoning, since it also is very competetive and not likely that all MD applicants get into ROAD residencies, why should they even try? It is possible. But the likelihood is another story. So why even apply as an MD?

 

[hopefuldoc87]

I agree, but here's the real bitch: I don't think the AOA residencies are as good as the allopathic ones.

There. I said it. Call me whatever you want. But in terms of volume, complexity, and research opportunities I doubt the average AOA derm residency can match the average allo one.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Not going to try to convince you otherwise.

For me, since derms (MD or DO) charge the same for procedures, and so they're paychecks are the same, as well as their amazing hours, why the **** is it going to matter?

 

[Parts Unknown]

The same said could be said comparing state-school residencies to ivy leagues....

Indeed it could.

If you get board certified nobody is going to care unless you are wanting to do academic medicine or something.

The operative word is "if."

 

[Parts Unknown]

For me, since derms (MD or DO) charge the same for procedures, and so they're paychecks are the same, as well as they're amazing hours, why the **** is it going to matter?

It is well documented the MD and DO practitioners are paid similarly, so that is not the question.

The question is whether one's choice of MD or DO will lead to similar training opportunities in one's choice of specialty.

 

[Parts Unknown]

Ok. You win. Not as many DO's get into the MD derm residencies. But my point was how does this affect the 97% of DO students who don't apply for MD derm?

It's potentially restrictive of their post-graduate training opportunities. For many this doesn't matter, but for others it will.

 

[hopefuldoc87]

It is well documented the MD and DO practitioners are paid similarly, so that is not the question.

The question is whether one's choice of MD or DO will lead to similar training opportunities in one's choice of specialty.

I could go on to say why would that matter, as long as the end result is a board certified dermatologist, but I have a feeling you would have another comeback to DO board certified dermatologists not having as many advantages as a MD board certified dermatologists.

No point in continuing with you since it's clear you have a bias or a grudge against DO's or something.

Good night.

 

[Parts Unknown]

I could go on to say why would that matter, as long as the end result is a board certified dermatologist, but I have a feeling you would have another comeback to DO board certified dermatologists not having as many advantages as a MD board certified dermatologists.

You would be wrong. My argument in this thread is that it is better to keep doors open as long as possible, and the allopathic route is superior to that end. If the OP decides his personal/geographic concerns trump that, then so be it. Another student will fill his place. No loss.

 

[dokein]

Hmmm, weird. I always thought/heard it was Rads. Maybe 'Rads' encompasses Diagnostic and Rad-Onc??

I did a quick google search; one site said it was specifically Rad-Onc and another said it was specifically Rad-Diag.

The clear solution is to avoid Rad and match into OAD to avoid any loss of prestige

 

[JaggerPlate]

The clear solution is to avoid Rad and match into OAD to avoid any loss of prestige

hahaha for sure!

 

[J1515]

Ok. You win. Not as many DO's get into the MD derm residencies. But my point was how does this affect the 97% of DO students who don't apply for MD derm? Quit putting such an emphasis on one residency just because it fits your theories.

100% of AOA Derm spots go to DOs. Yes, fewer spots, and fewer DOs. I'd also venture a guess that there are relatively fewer osteopathic students gunning for derm and neurosurgery per class than allo students in their respective class, based simply on anecdotal evidence. If AOA residencies didn't exist, then yes, doors would be closed. Bash them, say they're not good, say you're pissed that as an allo student you can't apply to them, but they keep the doors open for DO students and you will become board eligible once finishing said residency, period. I'm not sure why this ridiculous ROADS nonsense is always brought up. Most people interested in any of them entering medical school end up not having the grades or test scores regardless of MD or DO.

In order for you to tell me a residency (MD or DO) has poor academics or pathology, I want to hear it first hand from someone who went through the program. Otherwise you are just perpetuating yet another SDN myth based on your own bias.

 

[hopefuldoc87]

100% of AOA Derm spots go to DOs. Yes, fewer spots, and fewer DOs. I'd also venture a guess that there are relatively fewer osteopathic students gunning for derm and neurosurgery per class than allo students in their respective class, based simply on anecdotal evidence. If AOA residencies didn't exist, then yes, doors would be closed. Bash them, say they're not good, say you're pissed that as an allo student you can't apply to them, but they keep the doors open for DO students and you will become board eligible once finishing said residency, period. I'm not sure why this ridiculous ROADS nonsense is always brought up. Most people interested in any of them entering medical school end up not having the grades or test scores regardless of MD or DO.

In order for you to tell me a residency (MD or DO) has poor academics or pathology, I want to hear it first hand from someone who went through the program. Otherwise you are just perpetuating yet another SDN myth based on your own bias.

Are you talking to me? I was kinda trying to clear up some SDN myths, not perpetuate them.

 

[J1515]

Are you talking to me? I was kinda trying to clear up some SDN myths, not perpetuate them.

No, not directed at you

 

[avatarftw]

a

 

[Daedra22]

If your son is going to explore DO v. MD, I would highly recommend he look at stateside DO schools. There are some that aren't as good as others. Recently a for-profit DO school opened, much to the dismay of much of the profession. Still, there are many good, established programs out there.

... are you responding to the OP? Because I believe the OP was asking for his/herself, not his/her son, and did not mention carribean schools...