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DO over MD?
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One cable is 20 feet long and the other is 6.
Can't start comparing prices before we decide what length will suit our needs.
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Another common pre-med myth. There are a few schools that force you to relocate to do rotations (this may be true of certain MD schools as well? I'm not sure). Most do not. At NYCOM you can do all your 3rd year rotations in one hospital that is located 15 minutes from the school. During my 3rd year I chose to rotate at different hospitals and didn't have to drive more than 20 mins from my apartment. At UMDNJSOM you can do all or most of your 3rd year rotations in their healthcare system. At LECOM you can do all your rotations within a few miles of the school if you choose to stay in that dreary place. PCOM has ample rotation sites that you can choose from, staying near the school or moving away.
Fair enough.
No offense man, but you say you don't want to take the COMLEX, yet you don't even know if you are spelling the acronym correctly? (you did) Do you even know the differences between the COMLEX and USMLE?
Look, I'm not telling you or anyone else they are wrong for choosing an allopathic or osteopathic medical education. What I am saying is instead of continuously perpetuating the pre-med myths on this board composed of hearsay and what one or two or three people told you, how about we let people make an educated decision based on factual information. Advising other pre-meds who are at the same stage as you that "only the midwest is DO friendly" or "you must move around during your 3rd year rotations" is spreading false information, plain and simple. This is why I never understood why pre-meds would even attempt to advise other pre-meds. I know I would never advise another resident on how to land a vascular surgery fellowship, because all I know is what I've heard. I would leave the advice to someone who has been through the process. With that said, good luck with your future studies and I wish you the best.
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My bad - I glanced quickly and saw the "6" in the monster cable. The point is still valid - there are Monster 6 foot cables out there for $100+.
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Sounds like your decision is a pretty obvious one to me. You obviously want to live where you're currently living, stay close to your fiance, go into primary care, and avoid cold, crappy weather (which, if the MD school that accepted you is located in the mid-atlantic or new england, you will be dealing with--just look out my window at the 2+ feet of snow that's still here from a storm that occurred last week). So go with the reputable DO school that takes you. At the primary care level, the DO-MD distinction is hardly there.
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Your signature is awesome BTW.
I think this is the line of thinking that alot of premeds have. For some residencies, like rads and derm, there are just too few spots for the number of superstars there are. A good amount of applicants just don't get the spots, no matter how qualified they are.
That's assuming everyone who says that they want to do a ROAD residency as a premed actually ends up applying for it. You'd be surprised how things change when you get your first exam grades back, and it hits you: the pond just got a whole lot bigger.
Merry Christmas
You're right. In the end when there are two candidates for one spot and you have a candidate from Harvard and one from Puerto Rico, the spot is going to Harvard if the candidates are within 20% of each other (and they almost certainly will be).
But when I said ACE the boards, I didn't mean get a 269, and when I said awesome research, I don't mean get only one paper into Nature
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Haha, this guy has a D.O. What a pleb.
I actually dont have a DO yet....dont really understand what you are getting at....I was joking with that post...
As I've stated about 2000 times, I chose DO over MD. It really was only about fit and the DO school really was my top choice.
I guess the fellows and attendings at UCLA didn't tell you there are derm and ortho and neurosurgery residencies that are open only to DOs.
When will people realize there is no point in asking pre-meds for advice when they are at the same stage of education as you are? I'm done here.
Did I say you were rejected from and MD program? Or did my sentence not start with 'generally speaking'?
There's no point in listening to someone with a DO, of course they are going to be defensive about their choices and biased. If they're successful, they've been in an environment which has allowed them to be successful. Now this demonstrates that there ARE environments available to DOs which allow them to be successful, but it's also selective. Your personal experience is an anecdotal one just as much as any story we hear.
You and your DO friend like to compare top DO programs to average or below-average MD programs. How do you feel when your match list gets compared to top MD programs? Harvard or UPenn or UCSF or Johns Hopkins? Your research opportunities? If DO were really equivalent to MD, they would be comparable--but they are not.
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I dont think anyone is really trying to claim top DO=top MD in terms of research opportunities/prestige. Top MD schools certainly have more research funding, prestige,etc. The issue is how your "typical" DO student at a good DO schools fares compared to a "typical" MD student. I have no intention of trying to match into allo derm/rads etc....and I would venture to say most medical students do not as well. If you go to a good DO school, do well academically/boards, chances are you will match into a specialty you like, and be successful in your life. If you are the type who needs a top 10 education and are gunnin for a ROADS than I dont think anyone here is going to tell you to go to a DO over an MD school. You will obviously be more competitive for the allopathic match graduating from an allopathic school. Whatever happened to just wanting to be a physician? Regardless of which flavor of school you pick, we are still generally the cream of the academic crop, and shouldnt be putting others down.
Sorry for my tone, I was a bit annoyed for reasons outside this thread.
As relevant to the OP:
You've gotten into MD and DO, so clearly your specific choice is a choice, not any comment about your ability to get into MD generally. It is somewhat of a comment on whether you can get into a west coast MD program, but that's already over and the dice doesn't always roll the way we want it. For many DO students, it is a personal choice much like yours rather than 'ability'. Even for the DO students that did not get into an MD program, it is often just messing up a little bit, or maturing a little bit later, rather than any quantifiable 'ability'.
I agree with the posters in that if you choose primary care, or some residencies, if you just want to be a physician (and not a professor at a top-tier university, etc.) the difference between DO and MD is negligible. It doesn't really matter too much. The problem is, it's also a bit early to be sure about that. What if you find out two years from now that you really love Interventional Rad and you want to do serious research during your fellowship? In that situation, there is a large difference, and it will not be in your favor.
But if you have a family already, then it is likely you are farther along the way in terms of approaching your final choices in career than someone who does not. If you're reasonably certain that you want to go into primary care, and be the best physician you can be, the advantages you list in favor of the DO school far outweigh any difference.
I've had both DOs and MDs as doctors, and had excellent experiences with both. My worst experience was with an MD, and I've never had a bad one with a DO (although that may be due to sample size, due to the number of MDs rather than selectivity on my part).
But you are affecting your later opportunities with your choice, and don't let the posters tell you otherwise. Whether affecting your opportunities actually affects YOU, or whether it is irrelevant, is what you yourself must determine.
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Dokein, don't be such a pompous ass. You are talking to some of your seniors here. Have some respect. Your attitude wouldn't fly at a teaching hospital. If you don't learn to check your ego, especially when it interferes with learning, you'll get your ass kicked faster than you can shut your mouth. Seriously. I suspect your words are lubricated by the anonymity of the Internet.
Nobody is saying that osteopathic medical schools are the equal to the top allopathic research facilities. It's very obvious that they are not and it's not their goal to be, either. If you are interested in a career in academia, research, or desire to be one of the very few physicians to match into the very top end specialties, then, of course, it makes sense to choose MD. However, for the rest of us normal folk, the differences between osteopathic and allopathic medical schools aren't so great, if at all. You'll quickly realize once you start medical school, that no matter where you attend, it's an uphill battle. For most of us, it makes us humble.
Nobody is saying that osteopathic medical schools are the equal to the top allopathic research facilities. It's very obvious that they are not and it's not their goal to be, either. If you are interested in a career in academia, research, or desire to be one of the very few physicians to match into the very top end specialties, then, of course, it makes sense to choose MD. However, for the rest of us normal folk, the differences between osteopathic and allopathic medical schools aren't so great, if at all. You'll quickly realize once you start medical school, that no matter where you attend, it's an uphill battle. For most of us, it makes us humble.
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Dokein = troll. Come on people.
If we were in the same room with a patient, or discussing a patient, I would STFU and listen to every word you say.
But when I get accused of only caring about prestige, (J1515: "When you get out into the real world you will see life isn't all about prestige.") on an internet, I have the right to be an ******* back. When he posts some stupid poll about monster cables versus regular cables, despite tons of tests demonstrating that the two are functionally equivalent, he's trying generalize all pre-MDs as being stupid people that only care about prestige.
Research is very important to me, and very important to a lot of residencies and fellowships at research universities. It is underemphasized at DO schools relative to MD schools, and the competitiveness of applicants coming from the respective schools are thusly affected. Depending on your career goals, this is something you should consider before making the decision. If it is irrelevant to the OP, then great and the decision is a whole lot easier.
On the other hand, if you could magically get in anywhere you want, there is little disadvantage of going to an MD school over a DO school in terms of your career. There may be many valid personal reasons. But career-wise, MD schools are advantageous in terms of the opportunities provided. But that advantage only matters if those opportunities are relevant to you.
I've never overextended and said that it matters in primary care, or makes him a lesser physician. In fact I believe my posts demonstrate that at the physician level I would personally consider both based on the merit of their work rather than some degree.
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Yeah, I don't think J1515 is targeting pre-MD's in particular. His comments, in my reading of them throughout time, are more directed to pre-meds in general. I believe the main thrust of his argument is that pre-meds often don't have a clue what they are talking about, with good reason since they have yet to gain the experience needed to comment, but often doggedly insist that they are right (even though they are misinformed) because they talked to a friend of a friend or a relative, etc. I wouldn't take it personally. His other main point is that this sort of action tends to propagate untruths.
I agree. As a whole, it is true that if I wanted to pursue research, I'd go allopathic. I'm wishing you luck and success in the pursuit of what makes you happy.
Again, I agree. To me it's all about priorities. For some, the most important criteria in choosing a school are those valid personal reasons you allude to.
Just so we are clear, DO's aren't in any way relegated or limited to the realm of primary care like so many pre-meds make it sound. It's not like just because you decide to be any other specialty, you'll be somehow extremely hampered or limited in your choice just because you have a DO. I do not think this is the case. Just look at the match lists. As I have said before, if you are wanting to pursue one of the top end specialties or programs that very few physicians can even hope of attaining, it would make sense to attend an allopathic medical school.
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It's snide remarks like this that make you sound like an ass, piss people off, and lose credibility. Do you understand the ridiculousness of what you are saying? Ignore the doctors who's been through the process?
Yes, it's generally true that less research is done at DO schools vs MD schools. But if you rank med schools in a continuum with research-heavy schools on one end and no research at the other, you could not draw a neat little line separating MD and DO schools.
Research is in fact a substantial part of a lot of DO schools. Some even have combined DO/MS and DO/PhD programs. So it's hard to make generalizations of all DO schools. You can't always tell an applicant who's interested in research to "always go MD" without knowing which schools he's talking about.
Now if we compare the top ranked research medical universities (all MD), it would be no comparison to even the most research-oriented DO school. Those allopathic institutions produce excellent research physicians and clinicians but not because they have put an MD by their graduates' names.
And the fact of the matter is an MD or DO education will not hold you back from a competitive residency. The DO kid who couldn't match into integrated plastics probably would have the same outcome had he gone MD instead. And DOs don't always go into primary care even though it's the mission/vision of many DO schools. Every year, more DO grads (and MDs) are deciding to specialize.
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Excellllent post.
In my original post, when I said there is a lot of bias in the posters, I also added 'including me' after that statement. The next sentence started with 'generally speaking'. Those two phrases couched my claims enough that I didn't appreciate being accused of only caring about prestige or an idiot. But you're probably right and I'm taking it too personally.
I don't mean to say that DOs are limited to primary care, and if that is the imperssion I gave then my bad. I wish you the best of luck in your career as well.
I've already addressed all these points.
1) The snide remark was a response to the personal insults levied at me, even after my first post said that the biases were "INCLUDING ME". I already apologized for the tone several posts ago, so thanks for cherry picking.
2) When I use words like 'underemphasize' at DO schools relative to MD schools, it doesn't mean research is inexistent at DO schools and excellent at MD schools. Underemphasize is a weak word for a reason, and it's because I'm making a generalization.
3) Generalizations and talking about average MD versus average DO are necessary BECAUSE we don't know which schools he's talking about, not the other way around.
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Hey. I think we can agree that we are all a unified group of overly competitive jerkoff's, and hence have put in the griity efforts of impressing other over-compensating jerfoff's to get into mendical school. To whatever extent.
My desire for the MD route and ROADS residencies has nothing to do with the defensiveness in any of this debate either. I am 35 years old mf'ers. And I've been working in patient care before most of these guys have been gettin any p@ssy. I want to be the guy sitting peacufully in the dark box. Makin money. So I can pay pack the 400,000 quid at age 44 without getting my b@lls busted too much in this bureaucratic nightmare we call health care.
But....we can at least recognize that these are touchy issues and afford some leeway and respect to our seniors as the other poster said. We will all be working together. And I just want to get where I'm going. I'll even concede defeat on almost any minor issue just to avoid the hassle in getting there.
Good luck one and all.
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Me too. See the sarcastic smiley at the bottom? I was making fun of the prestige-obsessed dorks on here.
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So we should listen to pre-meds who haven't set foot in a medical school yet. Gotchya. I'm not defensive about my choices. I'm stating facts. When someone else states facts based on personal experience, I'll listen. Until then...well I've heard some ridiculous myths thrown around. I haven't once recommended anyone to go DO or MD. I never once said something is equivalent to the other. I never even used the word versus in the sense of comparing any two entities. All I have done is correct misinformation. The funny thing is you see this as an attack. I wonder why? I think it's because it's causing some internal conflict with your preconceived and admitted bias towards DOs, but then again, I'm not a psychiatrist. What I do recommend is you lose this bias as quick as possible, because chances are you will be evaluated by a DO(s) at some point during your 3rd and 4th years.
~280 people graduated alongside of me in my class. Some NYCOMers from the class below my year still post here. Some were happy with their education, some weren't, some aced every test without coming to a single class, a couple failed out, some were so immature that I couldn't believe they got accepted to a medical school in the first place, some were so good that I would choose them to care for me or my family members. Nothing selective about that. Once again, just the truth that conflicts with your preconceived notion about DOs.
I never compared DO programs to MD programs , so I have no idea what you're talking about. In fact, I don't think I've ever mentioned a single MD program in this thread. This isn't about "which is better, MD or DO." I never once used the word equivalent, so that was never my point either. Why is that always the objective of you premies, to find out "what is better?" This is about you kiddies spreading false information about the DO degree (ie - what you think you know). What I did was debunk yet another false pre-med myth that only the midwest was DO friendly, by showing you the matchlists of several DO schools that commonly match osteo students on the east coast. And for the record, my research opportunities were more than enough for my taste. NYCOM is pretty well known in the NY area for their Parkinsons research. UMDNJSOM and PCOM are also pretty well known for their research. If you attend one of those schools and are interested in research, you will be satisfied. If research is a priority, then obviously you look for schools that are heavy in research, be it MD or DO.
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Good. You understood. And it seems to have struck a nerve, so maybe it sank in and made you think about what the word 'better' really means. Yes, most pre-meds do care more about prestige than where they fit in best.
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actually it would be the other way around, K2 is the harder climb....
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uh what did you just say....
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I really dislike these types of threads. There have been so very many of them over time. Basically they start out the same way and generally degenerate into the same place, leaving a bad taste in the mouths of many. It seems to bring out the worst in many people and there is usually a lot of misinformation spread around, particularly by people who obviously don't have a clue about the topic, yet insist that they are some sort of authority, directly or indirectly, and stand steadfast with their beliefs despite attempts to educate by those who have been through the process. I just don't understand why certain people keep trying to prove that they are right. It's so stupid and such a profound waste of time.
Why does everything have to turn into a competition, particularly a chest-beating competition between MD and DO? It's of little value to anybody. I don't think the original intent of the thread was to battle it out between the two, on which is better. I think, based on my reading of the original post, that the OP wants to stay in or near his hometown and attending the DO school nearby allows him to do that. However, he is feeling uneasy and/or insecure about that choice for a variety of reasons. Besides presenting the information and correcting misinformation, we can't really help the OP make up his mind or ease his fears, whether they are realistic or not. It's up to the OP to do some good research so that he can make the most informed choice possible and to resolve his own internal conflict over the issue. And I wish him good luck with that and hope his choice is based on best fit, according to his personal criteria, and not on misinformed chest-beating or just plain misinformation from his colleagues.
Why does everything have to turn into a competition, particularly a chest-beating competition between MD and DO? It's of little value to anybody. I don't think the original intent of the thread was to battle it out between the two, on which is better. I think, based on my reading of the original post, that the OP wants to stay in or near his hometown and attending the DO school nearby allows him to do that. However, he is feeling uneasy and/or insecure about that choice for a variety of reasons. Besides presenting the information and correcting misinformation, we can't really help the OP make up his mind or ease his fears, whether they are realistic or not. It's up to the OP to do some good research so that he can make the most informed choice possible and to resolve his own internal conflict over the issue. And I wish him good luck with that and hope his choice is based on best fit, according to his personal criteria, and not on misinformed chest-beating or just plain misinformation from his colleagues.
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I've always used the term pre-med. It's interesting that certain people are singling themselves out, but pretty self explanatory as to why. Anyway, I think this thread can be locked now. The people who have valuable advice to offer have offered it, and as usual the pre-meds who think they know it all threw in their $0.02 as well. Farewell.
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Why not just make a sticky like the one in the DO topic?
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=133066
This, like you described, is one that is consistently repeated. Just a suggestion...
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Me too. See the sarcastic smiley at the bottom? I was making fun of the prestige-obsessed dorks on here.
Yeah yeah...sorry I misinterpreted that! It was my 11th hour at work on xmas...
What?
Don't start autofellating yourself prematurely. You haven't said anything that's sparked any sort of critical thought. You've made the same stupid overgeneralizations of premeds that many premeds have made of DOs.
Anyways, everything that needs to be said has been said I'm out of this thread.
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Anyone who accuses his opponent of autofellatio in the middle of a civilized argument cannot expect to be taken seriously.
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Gotta love these pre-med vs. resident fights.
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When are these med students, residents, and attendings going to learn that they just don't know as much as pre-medical students when it comes to medicine.
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nice comparsion with the monster cables. I always thought DO schools are more expensive but doesn't offer real benefit comparing to your average state MD school.
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I personally think that DOs are more attractive than MDs. And we all know that looks are the only thing that matters.
I agree with this. DO women are pretty darn HOT. Just look through the "What do you all look like" thread in the pre-DO forum and there's enough proof.
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I learned something new. This thread is now awesome.
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Cards is a fellowship, not a residency.
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To those who think of med school admissions as simply a game of numbers may ignorantly believe that, but the truth is that the reason people think DO school admission is easier is because DO schools place less emphasis on numbers and more emphasis on the people. Case in point, I know two people rejected from DO schools but accepted by their state MD schools.
That would be ONE school. The DO community is outraged about it.
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What does that have to do with being non-profit?
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I'm sure that everyone in the country applied for that specific specialty.
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Your numbers are beyond skewed. First of all, the AOA match happens first. So, if you match AOA, you're withdrawn from the ACGME match. Meaning, that 70% number isn't entirely accurate because it's counting those who were automatically withdrawn from the ACGME because they matched AOA. Second, the 80% number isn't accurate either because it's counting people who applied for the AOA match, then withdrew in hopes of matching ACGME. The fact of the matter is, when all is said and done, a comparable number of DOs ended up in residencies relative to MDs.
No offense, but most of what you said in this thread is nothing more than conjecture based on inaccurate information. I pointed it out above.
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Again, that 20% unmatched is misleading because it's counting people who voluntarily withdrew from the match in order to match ACGME.
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That isn't how the NRMP does either. A friend of mine was withdrawn from the ACGME match after matching AOA and he was considered unmatched in the ACGME match, not inactive.
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One DO DID match Rad Onc. And not for nothing, but if we're talking ROADS, then let's talk ROADS.
R stands for rads. At KCUMB, three people matched MD diagnostic rads.
O stands for ortho. At LECOM-B, two people matched MD ortho.
A stands for anesthesiology. At KCUMB again, eight people matched MD anesthesiology, including one going to Hopkins and one going to Mayo.
D stands for Derm. Derm is hard to distinguish because in order to match derm as a DO, you must complete a transitional year first, then match derm for your remaining three years.
Not a ROAD specialty, but someone from Touro NV matched MD neurosurg.
The point is, if you work hard, you an accomplish your career goals as a DO.
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love. this. post.
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To keep this going....I will just look at PCOM as this is where im going.
2008 8 students matched allopathic anesthesiology including one at Pitt
3 matched allopathic rads
There are other matches of note...but between allopathic and osteopathic residencies pretty much every specialty is represented.
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MedStudentWanna
THANK you for clearing up the matching numbers. I knew there was an explanation, I just wasn't at that level to the point where I could adequately explain it!!!
THANK you for clearing up the matching numbers. I knew there was an explanation, I just wasn't at that level to the point where I could adequately explain it!!!
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Just go to whatever school you like. You'll do better there and probably match into what you want. There's no difference between MD and DO anyway, once you finish residency.
I interviewed at about 14 MD schools, and four top 25 schools. Hated three of the four. Really, I couldn't imagine myself living in those areas or studying/socializing with the students. So I'm probably going to go to a low-ranked, fun school where the students are happy. I advise you do the same.
I didn't apply DO, but should have I have some DO friends who are the nicest, most fun people I have ever met and work their butts off. They don't take anything for granted. A few of the MD schools i interviewed at, applicants seemed competitive and arrogant. It was a real turn off for me.
I say this as an allopathic applicant going probably going to an allopathic school next year, go wherever makes you happy. Seriously. You'll feel it when you interview and you'll know.
I interviewed at about 14 MD schools, and four top 25 schools. Hated three of the four. Really, I couldn't imagine myself living in those areas or studying/socializing with the students. So I'm probably going to go to a low-ranked, fun school where the students are happy. I advise you do the same.
I didn't apply DO, but should have
I have some DO friends who are the nicest, most fun people I have ever met and work their butts off. They don't take anything for granted. A few of the MD schools i interviewed at, applicants seemed competitive and arrogant. It was a real turn off for me.I say this as an allopathic applicant going probably going to an allopathic school next year, go wherever makes you happy. Seriously. You'll feel it when you interview and you'll know.
