Do Pain Fellowships look at USMLE scores?

[Blitz2006]

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I'm a Psych resident, interested in Pain fellowship.

My USMLE Step scores are not the hottest. Does this matter? Do they look at the scores, or just care that you have passed Step 3?

I'm hoping to overcome this flaw by shadowing a pain doctor, and hopefully get some publications (in psych, but also hopefully pain medicine)

Thanks,

 

[NOSfan]

In general, the 'best' path to attain a fellowship is to rotate with the particular program you are interested in. This allows you the surest way to demonstrate your skill set and catch the faculties attention.

Not to dissuade you though, it will most likely be very difficult for you to secure a pain fellowship out of a psychiatry residency. Most fellowships take Anesthesia > PM&R > Neurology.

Best Regards.

 

[deleted398564]

@NOSfan, Do you think this is because of bias against psychiatry, or that it's actually from the MUCH smaller number of psych applicants even applying to pain fellowships.

 

[lonelobo]

@NOSfan, Do you think this is because of bias against psychiatry, or that it's actually from the MUCH smaller number of psych applicants even applying to pain fellowships.

While the psych component of pain is important, things such as muscuoskeletal exam, reading films, procedures is surely lacking in a psych residency.....depending on the program I am sure you can get better at these things and in fact you can train a monkey to do procedures as evidenced by my former partner

 

[SSdoc33]

While the psych component of pain is important, things such as muscuoskeletal exam, reading films, procedures is surely lacking in a psych residency.....but you can train a monkey to do procedures as evidenced by my former partner

i didnt know that you and stim had a falling out

 

[lonelobo]

i didnt know that you and stim had a falling out

Stim is probably on 2 fewer Psych meds than this guy😉

 

[NOSfan]

@NOSfan, Do you think this is because of bias against psychiatry, or that it's actually from the MUCH smaller number of psych applicants even applying to pain fellowships.

Unfortunately, I don't believe that small number of applicants are a factor. Historically, pain fellowships have been very slow to include/accept non-anesthesia disciplines. While psychiatry is one of the ACGME approved pathways, you could likely count the number of current psych-pain fellows on a single hand.

 

[deleted185747]

To the OP; why not finish psyc and specialize in pain psychiatry and ignore the injections. You would have a job anywhere you desire and help complete the pain team.

 

[Blitz2006]

To the OP; why not finish psyc and specialize in pain psychiatry and ignore the injections. You would have a job anywhere you desire and help complete the pain team.

Appreciate the input. But obviously, wouldn't it be better to have an ACGME fellowship in pain under my belt? I do like doing procedures also. I am hoping that shadowing with a pain doctor in PGY2/3 and doing electives in PGY4 with a pain doc will help my app.

I have posted on here a few weeks ago, and received some responses from psychiatry residents. Apparently this year around 3-5 psych residents applied to pain. Schools that "like" psych residents include:

UWash, Iowa, UC Davis, UPMC, Ohio State, MCW...I'm sure I'm missing a few others. I have emailed the PDs at these programs, and received some positive feedback. I agree, it will be an uphill battle, but it doesn't look impossible either (at these aforementioned sites). If I'm not mistaken, the chairman of pain at UC Davis is a Psychiatrist:

So can anyone tell me about how important Step Scores are? Thats one thing I cannot change at this point, and I'm pretty concerned about this since my scores are not very good.

Thanks,

 

[lobelsteve]

Not at all important. This is fellowship and not residency.

 

[Blitz2006]

Not at all important. This is fellowship and not residency.

Thanks, reassuring.

 

[unchockey21]

Appreciate the input. But obviously, wouldn't it be better to have an ACGME fellowship in pain under my belt? I do like doing procedures also. I am hoping that shadowing with a pain doctor in PGY2/3 and doing electives in PGY4 with a pain doc will help my app.

I have posted on here a few weeks ago, and received some responses from psychiatry residents. Apparently this year around 3-5 psych residents applied to pain. Schools that "like" psych residents include:

UWash, Iowa, UC Davis, UPMC, Ohio State, MCW...I'm sure I'm missing a few others. I have emailed the PDs at these programs, and received some positive feedback. I agree, it will be an uphill battle, but it doesn't look impossible either (at these aforementioned sites). If I'm not mistaken, the chairman of pain at UC Davis is a Psychiatrist:

So can anyone tell me about how important Step Scores are? Thats one thing I cannot change at this point, and I'm pretty concerned about this since my scores are not very good.

Thanks,

Add UCSD to that list. They've been wanting to get a pain trained psychiatrist on staff for several years.

 

[Stim4me]

Stim is probably on 2 fewer Psych meds than this guy😉

My drug is pure love.... Not hate...

Usmle scores are important with competitive programs. At UPENN we had over 300 applicants for 3 spots... Research is even more meaningful. I had published several case reports and Alpha-2/dex review article during residency...

 

[Got Em]

My drug is pure love.... Not hate...

Usmle scores are important with competitive programs. At UPENN we had over 300 applicants for 3 spots... Research is even more meaningful. I had published several case reports and Alpha-2/dex review article during residency...

Do you look at residents other than Anes/PM&R? I'm going into EM btw.

 

[Stim4me]

Do you look at residents other than Anes/PM&R? I'm going into EM btw.

My former program accepted chief resident PMR doctors and neurologists.

 

[Blitz2006]

My drug is pure love.... Not hate...

Usmle scores are important with competitive programs. At UPENN we had over 300 applicants for 3 spots... Research is even more meaningful. I had published several case reports and Alpha-2/dex review article during residency...

Does my research in psych have any impact? Or does it all have to be in pain?

 

[ampaphb]

Pain fellowships don't do anything uniformly. These are little fifedomes, run almost exclusively by the program directors. They do what they please when they please how they please.

There are no general rules. Talk to recent fellows to find out the proclivities of each individual program director, and then tailor your approach accordingly.

 

[IN2B8R]

I would very much say that the USMLEs do matter, perhaps as important as your specialty boards. I am only speaking on behalf of ACGME accredited fellowships.

 

[ampaphb]

I would very much say that the USMLEs do matter, perhaps as important as your specialty boards. I am only speaking on behalf of ACGME accredited fellowships.

You may be knowledgeable about the one program you're familiar with, but your claim that you are speaking "on behalf of ACGME accredited fellowships" is bull$hit.

 

[Stim4me]

Typically you formulate an opinion based on several contributors on a thread.... Top programs want good scores, chief residents, and research. No different than residency programs... Mid tier programs are less stringent

 

[IN2B8R]

ampaphb: what makes you think that I know of only one ACGME accredited program? When I applied to pain, all programs asked for the USMLEs transcripts. You think they asked for such info 'cause they don't care about it? Don't kid yourself, they all look at this and make decisions. I know of plenty of people who have had lousy scores and didn't match. Sure, there maybe very few programs that don't look at it, but I would venture to say that this is the exception, rather than the rule for the ACGME accredited programs.

 

[gdub25]

My current program certainly looks at them. As fellows we help with the recruiting process and we were included in most of the discussions regarding applicants. The fellowship at my home institution where I did residency also looked at them. Both programs are ACGME acreddited and anesthesia based. Those are the only two I can personally vouch for, but I agree with IN2B8R that all the programs I applied to asked for USMLE scores, ITE scores as well.

 

[Blitz2006]

Well there are 95 Pain Fellowships:

https://services.aamc.org/eras/erasstats/par/display8.cfm?NAV_ROW=PAR&SPEC_CD=530

Would you say it is roughly 33 upper tier, 33 middle tier, 33 low tier? Anywhere that ranks or gives a rough idea of the quality of these fellowships?

Also, are the fellowships that are NOT participating in December match "weaker"?

As a Psych resident, I am not gunning for top programs, would be happy with anything., especially with my crappy USMLE scores.

 

[IN2B8R]

It's tough to "rank" programs when they are, to a fair degree, dissimilar or may have a different focus: certain programs are more interventional than others. Some are truly multidisciplinary, others are not.... My advice is to apply broadly and hope that you get some interviews. Once there, express your true intentions for why you want to be a pain medicine physician. Good luck!

 

[Nonphysiologic]

Formula for success: do decent on in service + a few posters and maybe a couple case reports written up must be pain specific + excellent LOR from pain faculty= get you the interview. Be confident and know exactly why you want to get in pain [quick 5 minute answer] and you'll be good. Bonus: apply very early like end of February latest even through most don't look at apps until May/June/July

This is coming from a neurologist with not the greatest step scores who matched. That being said I got a ton of rejections too....

 

[ampaphb]

Yes, in fact, I do think many programs ask for information they don't rely heavily on. Why would scores from tests you took four years ago regarding subject areas that have virtually nothing to do with pain have any relevance in this decision matrix? Particularly when more recent, more relevant data is available?

 

[Stim4me]

Yes, in fact, I do think many programs ask for information they don't rely heavily on. Why would scores from tests you took four years ago regarding subject areas that have virtually nothing to do with pain have any relevance in this decision matrix? Particularly when more recent, more relevant data is available?

Usmle scores indicate intelligence, commitment, and work ethic....no different than any other standardized test we are subject to as physicians.

 

[Ducttape]

isnt it a constellation of information that they would like? those scores might not mean that much, but they give a picture into the person. does he dog it sometimes? is he always conscientious? does he lose interest and just skirt on by? is he a high achieving individual who is sincerely interested in whatever he is doing?

Edit: OMG, i cant post something that agrees with what Stim posted!

 

[Stim4me]

isnt it a constellation of information that they would like? those scores might not mean that much, but they give a picture into the person. does he dog it sometimes? is he always conscientious? does he lose interest and just skirt on by? is he a high achieving individual who is sincerely interested in whatever he is doing?

Edit: OMG, i cant post something that agrees with what Stim posted!

It's called Enlightenment ductappe.....

Also directors of anesthesia pain programs look at your residency anesthesia board scores...the actual percentile you are given...

 

[Ducttape]

omg... help lonelobo, ssdoc....

i must not give in....

This is a dangerous time for me, when I will be tempted by the Dark Side of the Force.