Do patients care if you have PhD?

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kel2244

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I was recently accepted into USC and Pepperdine's MFT program in addition to Palo Alto University's PhD program.

I want to go into private practice for couples therapy and I understand I can do so with both degrees. I'm just wondering if the PhD is worth it. I do enjoy research, but my career goals are primarily clinical.

What do you think I should do? Palo Alto's PhD program will put me about $130,000 in debt. Do you think I could pay back those loans with a clinical psychologists salary?
 
I was recently accepted into USC and Pepperdine's MFT program in addition to Palo Alto University's PhD program.

I want to go into private practice for couples therapy and I understand I can do so with both degrees. I'm just wondering if the PhD is worth it. I do enjoy research, but my career goals are primarily clinical.

What do you think I should do? Palo Alto's PhD program will put me about $130,000 in debt. Do you think I could pay back those loans with a clinical psychologists salary?

If you want to go into PP, get a master's degree
 
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I Palo Alto's PhD program will put me about $130,000 in debt. Do you think I could pay back those loans with a clinical psychologists salary?

That's just the tuition. Unless you want to live in a box, your debt for 5 years of grad school will almost double that.

The mean salary for a psychologist is 80K. You do the monthly loan payment math.
 
I saw your post over on the master's forum and I'm not super familiar with USC's MFT or the other program you mentioned, so I didn't comment. But my personal advice is to not pay $100,000 for a master's program in mental health.

I think the generally accepted rule is no more than you expect to make in a year. It will be really hard to make $100,000 a year on an MFT.

Anecdotally, I have members of my masters cohort who are in debt at about $100k to $150k. These amounts are undergrad + grad. Take your undergrad loans into account when adding in your grad loans too.
 
Both of those options are pretty bad.

The mft market in ca is pretty tapped out. You might want to investigate the market and potential market share before making a business move.
 
People on this forum seem to worry about money too much... I don't think anyone answered the question in your title. The answer is that, all things the same, you will get a better clinical skills with doctoral training, which translates into better patient care. Beyond that, many patients will not care nor notice if you have a doctorate. In the end, ask yourself what's best for you and your potential clients?
 
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People on this forum seem to worry about money too much... I don't think anyone answered the question in your title. The answer is that, all things the same, you will get a better clinical skills with doctoral training, which translates into better patient care. Beyond that, many patients will not care nor notice if you have a doctorate. End the end, ask yourself what's best for you and your potential clients?

If you have no interest in research or academia, then don't pursue a doctoral degree.
 
riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

doctoral degrees are only for research and academia, and money doesn't matter.

A doctoral program that offers solid training (and likely solid funding) will at the very least require you to complete a thesis and dissertation and will most likely require you to serve as a TA for at least some part of your training - Why put yourself through that for a minimum of 4-5 years if you have no interest in academia or research? If you know that you're not interested in research, then why put yourself in a position where you'll be competing for predoctoral internship (where there is already a significant imbalance) with other doctoral students who are interested and experienced in both research and clinical practice? Are there actual concrete goals that you hope to accomplish and training opportunities that you hope to experience in a doctoral program that are 100% unavailable in a masters program?

The difference in earning potential for a mid-level provider and PhD/PsyD is less dramatic than many people believe, and I would argue that the opportunity cost of spending an extra 3-5 years in training while pursuing a doctoral degree could outweigh the increase in compensation you might experience with a PhD rather than as an LCSW/MFT if your only goal is to work in private practice.
 
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I would say maybe 1-2 out of 10 patients ask me about my degree. In many settings it's more about what your referral sources think about you though. And, I also want to branch out into forensic work someday, therefore the PhD and specialty boarding are essential.
 
Employers also care about the degree. My hospital only wants doctoral level providers for a variety of reasons. There are also more options as a psychologist than there are as a MA level provider. I didn't want to become a full-time researcher or academic, but I do enjoy research and teaching so have worked as adjunct faculty and even taught Research Methods to undergrads. Some patients will care and some will not. One other thing to consider is that many who start out with the goal of private practice actually end up doing something different. Goals change and I still am not sure what my next step will be after this job. There are a lot of factors to weigh including time, money, ability, career options. Good luck with the process.
 
The 2010 Sweet survey indicates that the range for neuropsych private practice is 37k- 840k. I think the differences are pretty dramatic.
 
The 2010 Sweet survey indicates that the range for neuropsych private practice is 37k- 840k. I think the differences are pretty dramatic.

A neuropsychologist making $840k solely in private practice likely owns a large group practice, which an LCSW is capable of doing as well. I'd focus more on the bottom end of that range ($37k), which is going to be much more common than the $840k figure anyway and falls pretty much in line with the starting salary for an LCSW.

LCSW:
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Licensed_Clinical_Social_Worker_(LCSW)/Salary

neuropsychologist:
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Neuropsychologist/Salary

Given the cuts in mental healthcare reimbursement (this largely excludes med management) and the over complicated insurance and billing process that accompanies our nation's healthcare system, I don't think anyone is arguing that mental health professionals w/o prescriptive authority who are going into private practice are going to be making $$$ anytime soon.

The most common private practice setting is likely a group practice, where a provider is working alongside several other providers (doctoral level and mid-level) and a large cut of their hourly rate (which is most likely already reduced due to reduced insurance reimbursement rates) is taken out by the practice to support overhead cost, support staff, and profit/income for the practice and the owner of the practice. I can only imagine that in this setting it would be hard for any provider - doctoral level or mid-level - to ever make a six figure income, and keep in mind that a provider working in this setting would most likely be on the hook for their own retirement, insurance, time off, etc.

The owner of that practice is probably going to be Ms. $840k, and she could be an LCSW, PhD/PsyD, etc - I think that the practice usually uses a corporate/group NPI to bill for services, but I'm only a neophyte in regards to PP organizational structures.

I think that what services a provider offers, rather than what degree a provider has, will have a lot more to do with their take home income. Working with services that are not covered by insurance is going to be the best route for making a steady income in PP, which I will admit is arguably easier for PhDs/PsyDs given their training in assessment/evaluation (psychoeducational/forensic testing, substance abuse evaluations, etc). Mid-level providers can still engage in court ordered therapy, rehabilitation/counseling with sex offenders/substance abusers, couples counseling (is that generally covered by insurance?), which are all generally not covered by insurance and require an out of pocket payment.

I have no interest in pursuing a PP career per se, but I would like to maintain a small, specialized, cash only practice, where I do a handful of assessments (psychoed, forensic, worker's comp, substance abuse, etc.) every couple months, in addition to a more traditional, 9-5 job.
 
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Wow! I don't usually care about money, but where do I sign up for 840,000 a year?! ;-)

I have a strong suspicion that person is 100% medico-legal, which is the deep end of practice w. plenty of sharks in the water. It can get pretty nasty, which is why I generally steer clear of it, but to each their own. You are either the shark or the chum.
 
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I would recommend getting an MSW rather than a MFT, that will limit your options. Also PAU's PhD program is not very good.. The PsyD program there (well PGSP technically) is actually better.
 
People on this forum seem to worry about money too much... I don't think anyone answered the question in your title. The answer is that, all things the same, you will get a better clinical skills with doctoral training, which translates into better patient care. Beyond that, many patients will not care nor notice if you have a doctorate. In the end, ask yourself what's best for you and your potential clients?

I agree with the concept that people had not been addressing the OPs question. I would be in favor of obtaining a PhD/PsyD because the intensity of breadth of clinical training you are likely to receive is greater in contrast to an MA/MS program. I am clearly biased in that respect, as this is MY OPINION. Though, in a PhD/PsyD forum, this should not be an unexpected bias for any poster to hold.

That said, I think it is extremely important to look at student loans as an investment in yourself and consider your ability to pay off the debt you will incur as a result of that investment. While I am clearly in favor of doctoral level training for mental health providers, it may not be the best or most practical approach for each and every individual.

Overall, I would research both pathways to training and practice, as thoroughly as possible, and make the best decision for your career and your future. I applaud your seeking out information here. I would strongly encourage you to speak with former or current professors/mentors about your question. If you have a close friend, colleague, or family member in the field, I would also encourage you to speak with them and a frank discussion about training in these disciplines and the subsequent career opportunities each would permit.

Being well informed when making these decisions is really important.
 
People on this forum seem to worry about money too much... I don't think anyone answered the question in your title. The answer is that, all things the same, you will get a better clinical skills with doctoral training, which translates into better patient care. Beyond that, many patients will not care nor notice if you have a doctorate. In the end, ask yourself what's best for you and your potential clients?
The OP asked if it was worth it and brought up the issue of student loans vs salary. I don't see how posters responding to that from a financial perspective reflects "people worrying about money too much".
 
If anything, people in the field care about money and debt too little. As to the OP's original question, most patients do not care particularly about degree, but, I do have patients who refuse to do therapy with mid-levels. But that's only about 5-10% of them.
 
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