DO physicians can get MD title?

[Mbeas]

We want better rotation sites, we want better opportunities, we want to be represented by a national organization that wants to advance us, rather than hold us back. Its a really unfortunate state of affairs.

Absolutely. Indubitably, I have qualms about some of the administration and overseeing organizations in the DO world. The profession is not flawless, and quite frankly, I don't think these issues are going to be completely resolved anytime soon. I have seen some improvements which is great, but I have also seen some glaring issues that have not been addressed. However, I am very grateful that the profession exists, as it is granting me the opportunity to fulfill a lifelong dream. Sure, I will have to work hard(er), but I'm not gonna become deterred or feel like I am disadvantaged because of a bunch of premed know-it-alls on SDN.

I feel a small part of where I'm coming from has to do with the way many people post new threads on these forums seeking advice. It's like they feel the need to spout out this "I have no problem being a DO!" nonsense to make themselves feel more secure about it. The truth is... most of us know that the practice and training of DO/MD are almost the exact same, so there's no reason to point it out... if that makes sense.

I don't want to bring it to religion, but if I may as an example... it's kind of like how people go around saying "God is so real!" when something good happens... as if they are still trying to convince themselves of it; otherwise, they wouldn't need to say it at all.

I agree that in practice our degrees are virtually indistinguishable and that we learn the exact same stuff. However, the reality is that there is a DO degree and a MD degree for a reason, and they have remained separate for that reason. And by ignoring these differences, I almost feel like that indicates more of an insecurity because we are sweeping these things under the rug. I am advocating pride as a DO the same way I would advocate pride for an MD. Our goals remain the same and for all intents and purposes, our practice remains the same; hence, our practice rights remain the same.

Also, if someone said "I have no problem being a DO!", I would agree that indicates an innate problem and an insecurity. However, by saying that I am proud to receive a DO degree, I am accepting all pros (becoming a physician, fulfilling lifelong dream,etc.) of the profession as well as all cons (adminstrative/accrediting B.S.), while using those cons as motivators to succeed. Is there a bias against DO's? Sure, a little bit, but in my experience I haven't seen it. Actually, I've seen the opposite but I won't elaborate here. I don't feel the need to ever justify or defend my degree; however, I will be the first to guard the degree because the reality is that there is a lot of ignorance in the world. I'm a firm believer in factual education.

And don't get me started on religion

Like others were saying above, in the real world none of this DO/MD stuff means anything to patients (in most cases). They just want to stop feeling sick and be treated right. The fact this is SDN just hypes topic up a lot more than needed since we're technically all considered "doctors"... so the forums have to be divided to address each genre so people can get specific advice. But in the real world, I think all of us (MD/DO/etc.) end up blending together into one category called "physician".

Agreed. SDN is full of people who are insecure about their college, med school, specialty, etc. and they feel the need to exploit that by making others feel inferior. This kinda stuff exists everywhere, even in the more "mature" resident threads. Surgeons making fun of internists, internists making fun of surgeons, the list goes on and on. I'm sorry these kinda people just don't have any confidence. However, these kinda things just don't matter in the work environment, like you mentioned.

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[Brigade4Radiant]

This is a bit off topic but I've heard that KCUMB will offer the MD degree starting with the 2015-2016 matriculating class... can anyone confirm this? It kinda makes sense, given that KCUMB's stats are above those of the low-tier MD schools (especially the HBCs and Carib) and Missouri already has one DO school.

So in theory you would have two degrees?

 

[Iliketoytles]

I agree that in practice our degrees are virtually indistinguishable and that we learn the exact same stuff. However, the reality is that there is a DO degree and a MD degree for a reason, and they have remained separate for that reason. And by ignoring these differences, I almost feel like that indicates more of an insecurity because we are sweeping these things under the rug. I am advocating pride as a DO the same way I would advocate pride for an MD. Our goals remain the same and for all intents and purposes, our practice remains the same; hence, our practice rights remain the same.

Agreed! I didn't mean to say that we should ignore the differences between MD and DO (however subtle they may be), especially since there is some hurdles to jump from a medstudent's perspective when dealing with residencies/fellowships. I used to hang around the pre-allo section a lot and I never noticed people saying they are "proud to have an MD", so it just seems silly to say we're "proud to be a DO", even though we are. I'm extremely proud of my future degree (assuming I pass all the boards ), but it seems to be like I'm undercutting myself and making my degree look weaker when I feel the need to go around telling people I'm proud of it... indirectly implying that there's a reason why I shouldn't be. Strange.

I haven't slept in a couple days so I'm probably not making a lick of sense. Hopefully nobody's getting the impression I'm downplaying the DO degree, because I'm not. I'm VERY happy to be a future DO... but when I think about my future, the first thing I'd call myself wouldn't be "DO"... it'd be "physician".

I hope I don't get kicked out of DMU for all this talk, hahaha.

 

[Mbeas]

.

I haven't slept in a couple days so I'm probably not making a lick of sense. Hopefully nobody's getting the impression I'm downplaying the DO degree, because I'm not. I'm VERY happy to be a future DO... but when I think about my future, the first thing I'd call myself wouldn't be "DO"... it'd be "physician".

Oh, trust me...I never thought you were downplaying the degree and I understand your perspective. Your participation on these boards justifies that.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

 

[TriagePreMed]

Agreed! I didn't mean to say that we should ignore the differences between MD and DO (however subtle they may be), especially since there is some hurdles to jump from a medstudent's perspective when dealing with residencies/fellowships. I used to hang around the pre-allo section a lot and I never noticed people saying they are "proud to have an MD", so it just seems silly to say we're "proud to be a DO", even though we are. I'm extremely proud of my future degree (assuming I pass all the boards ), but it seems to be like I'm undercutting myself and making my degree look weaker when I feel the need to go around telling people I'm proud of it... indirectly implying that there's a reason why I shouldn't be. Strange.

I haven't slept in a couple days so I'm probably not making a lick of sense. Hopefully nobody's getting the impression I'm downplaying the DO degree, because I'm not. I'm VERY happy to be a future DO... but when I think about my future, the first thing I'd call myself wouldn't be "DO"... it'd be "physician".

I hope I don't get kicked out of DMU for all this talk, hahaha.

I don't think it's silly at all. Think of it in terms of race. Minorities usually say "I'm proud to be _______." Why? Is it because of insecurity? No, it is because they have had to go through the discrimination and labels of not being part of the majority group. Someone saying they are proud of being D.O. is saying that, even though there's adversities that have been overcome, they feel proud of having walked that walk that many choose not to. Just look at the number of kids that run off to the Caribbean just to have MD after their name.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I'm perfectly happy with DO alone, but that would be interesting to see "MD/DO" in the title because technically we are obtaining a physician education PLUS OMM.

It's like kind of/sort of having MD/PhD...

there is a whole other thread about the DO/MD thing somewhere around here. The above logic is faulty. By this logic I should be graduating with an MD/PA/RN/BSN/DPN simply because there is nothing in those curriculums that I have not had.... (ok... nurses have team building stuff.... but can I transfer our clinical practice courses as equivalents?).

(the rest of this not directed at you Onco... just an open statement to the thread concerning this topic)

here is the best way I can think to describe how inappropriate this discussion is:
Our military has rankings within every division. You start low, and you build your way up.

A Gunnery Sergeant in the Marines is of equivalent rank to a Sergeant First Class in the Army. Is it OK for the marine to call himself a Sergeant First Class due to equivalence? No. It just really really is not ok.

Degrees and titles are not acquired via personal achievement and personal assessment of achievement. they are handed down from above . You cannot claim a title simply because you feel you have met the criteria no matter how valid the claim may be.

All of this title swapping stuff is really nothing but ego masturbatory material. If you are one of the people in the position where DO was the most realistic choice because of grades or scores, then cheering this on will only validate feelings or appearances inadequacy. If you are one of those who truly believes in the philosophy of DO, (well... I think you are partially deluded then... outside of OMT the philosophical differences are nil) then rooting for a title switch makes no sense at all. If you are one of those who could have been competitive for MD schools but otherwise chose to go to a DO school, your argument here makes even less sense... Regardless of circumstance, anyone who chose to go to a DO school should not be whining post-hence or preemptively that they want an MD degree.

 

[Mbeas]

there is a whole other thread about the DO/MD thing somewhere around here. The above logic is faulty. By this logic I should be graduating with an MD/PA/RN/BSN/DPN simply because there is nothing in those curriculums that I have not had.... (ok... nurses have team building stuff.... but can I transfer our clinical practice courses as equivalents?).

Agreed.

And in response to Onco, a "physician education plus OMM" is a DO degree. Making a DO/MD degree or a variation of that is redundant and unnecessary. It's not really comparable to your MD/PhD example.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Agreed.

And in response to Onco, a "physician education plus OMM" is a DO degree. Making a DO/MD degree or a variation of that is redundant and unnecessary. It's not really comparable to your MD/PhD example.

yeah... Onco has already given me the silent treatment so I didn't feel like pursuing that too hard.... but I know a bunch of PhD students who would be somewhat offended that their training was equated to a couple hundred hours total of OMM traning.... That comparison is like me saying that taking an accredited masseuse weekend course is kinda/sorta like knowing OMM. There are lots of things that have "essence of" if we want to make those comparisons... but that doesnt make them reasonable arguments or talking points.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

So what about KCUMB's MD, DO degree? I thought that idea died with last dean?

 

[Santorum Surge]

I'm perfectly happy with DO alone, but that would be interesting to see "MD/DO" in the title because technically we are obtaining a physician education PLUS OMM.

It's like kind of/sort of having MD/PhD...

No. You earn either an MD or a DO. The real question is, why have the really good DO schools not switched to MD? You shouldn't have a 3.3/20 and get to be an MD whereas you can have a 3.7/28 and go to KCUMB and still have to deal with the DO bias. I've seen it firsthand, it's brutal.

 

[Mbeas]

The real question is, why have the really good DO schools not switched to MD?

Why should they? They are osteopathic medical schools. The only difference between the two is not just the entrance requirements. Just because a school has an average ~3.6/30 does not mean it should (or can, for that matter) change to an MD school.

 

[FSUchess99]

It's really impressive how many of the pre-osteo threads are basically tightrope-walking MD vs DO threads. If I get into DO school, am I going to have to listen to this BS until I retire?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Why should they? They are osteopathic medical schools. The only difference between the two is not just the entrance requirements. Just because a school has an average ~3.6/30 does not mean it should (or can, for that matter) change to an MD school.

There is no drive towards becoming MD schools, it's a lot of work and a lot of money and would be a headache overall for an established school.

 

[Mbeas]

There is no drive towards becoming MD schools, it's a lot of work and a lot of money and would be a headache overall for an established school.

Exactly. It ain't happening.

 

[Mbeas]

It's really impressive how many of the pre-osteo threads are basically tightrope-walking MD vs DO threads. If I get into DO school, am I going to have to listen to this BS until I retire?

No. And pre-allo has its fair share too, btw.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Exactly. It ain't happening.

Unless something catastrophic happens like ACGME locking out DO's from the ACGME match. Otherwise it's not likely.

 

[Mbeas]

Unless something catastrophic happens like ACGME locking out DO's from the ACGME match. Otherwise it's not likely.

That would be a major problem for the AOA to deal with, and the response is very unlikely to be a degree change.

 

[Bacchus]

Unless something catastrophic happens like ACGME locking out DO's from the ACGME match. Otherwise it's not likely.

Speak of the devil:

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a...ral-training/Pages/acgme-training-limits.aspx

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

That would be a major problem for the AOA to deal with, and the response is very unlikely to be a degree change.

It would be a solution that the schools themselves can provide their students. Switch their accreditation to AMA/LCME/ACGME.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Speak of the devil:

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a...ral-training/Pages/acgme-training-limits.aspx

Well that's bound to put some pressure on DO's, especially since over 10% go into transitional years.

It's also time that the 4 states requiring a AOA internship drop the BS and stop annoying physicians.

 

[SpecterGT260]

So what about KCUMB's MD, DO degree? I thought that idea died with last dean?

if they were to get accredited to provide both then nobody would have any business complaining about it. That is as simple as it gets.

until a DO school is accredited to provide MD degrees or an MD is accredited to provide DO degrees it is just silly to keep this conversation going. You can call yourself XXX when you have XXXX degree. that is all.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

if they were to get accredited to provide both then nobody would have any business complaining about it. That is as simple as it gets.

until a DO school is accredited to provide MD degrees or an MD is accredited to provide DO degrees it is just silly to keep this conversation going. You can call yourself XXX when you have XXXX degree. that is all.

I generally don't see the downsides of being dual accredited, I think that if it is within the reach of top DO schools then it should be pursued.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I generally don't see the downsides of being dual accredited, I think that if it is within the reach of top DO schools then it should be pursued.

you are going to have to go back and show me where I mentioned anything about a downside....

I just said until there is dual accreditation (and it could go both ways... an MD school could potentially start providing a dual degree as well if they wanted (lets pretend the AOA arent stingy old codgers...)) that this is a silly conversation. No back doors. If you want the title, get the degree. If you come from a theoretical dual degree program... whelp, sounds like you have the degree

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

you are going to have to go back and show me where I mentioned anything about a downside....

I just said until there is dual accreditation (and it could go both ways... an MD school could potentially start providing a dual degree as well if they wanted (lets pretend the AOA arent stingy old codgers...)) that this is a silly conversation. No back doors. If you want the title, get the degree. If you come from a theoretical dual degree program... whelp, sounds like you have the degree

Never said there was a downside either, I spring boarded off of your post and tried to say that it is such a good thing that it should be pursued.

 

[AgDoc84]

I get impatient with people too when asked seemingly dumb questions all the time, but we are doing our profession a disservice by ignoring them. We need to go out and educate the public.

I don't disagree with this at all. I think we do need to get out and educate them. My point, that I did not really make all that well is that WE get caught up in these title wars about MD/DO and heaven forbid DNP, DDS, PhD whatever. For the most part though, we are only impressing ourselves.

 

[Nymphicus]

I'm perfectly happy with DO alone, but that would be interesting to see "MD/DO" in the title because technically we are obtaining a physician education PLUS OMM.

It's like kind of/sort of having MD/PhD...

Ahaha

 

[donkeykong1]

I generally don't see the downsides of being dual accredited, I think that if it is within the reach of top DO schools then it should be pursued.

LCME "inspectors" have visited some schools in the past like kcumb, ccom, ou, une....but again the COCA won't allow for the dual accreditation to provide the MD,DO. kcumb was considering it, but was shot down by the aoa.

Read below for the KCUMB mess:

http://blogs.do-online.org/dailyreport.php?itemid=37001

 

[WDeagle]

LCME "inspectors" have visited some schools in the past like kcumb, ccom, ou, une....but again the COCA won't allow for the dual accreditation to provide the MD,DO. kcumb was considering it, but was shot down by the aoa.

Read below for the KCUMB mess:

http://blogs.do-online.org/dailyreport.php?itemid=37001

I don't think this was ever a serious thing. The past dean made the announcement a few days before she was fired. I think it was more a ploy to gain some sympathy knowing that she was going to be fired. For a while everyone thought she got fired over the MD/DO thing. We all know what really happened.

 

[CopToEM]

If I walk into a patient's room and they say, "I want to see an MD and not a DO," I will gladly transfer care to a physician of their choice. I expect this will happen less times than I have fingers in my career.

Moot point.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

LCME "inspectors" have visited some schools in the past like kcumb, ccom, ou, une....but again the COCA won't allow for the dual accreditation to provide the MD,DO. kcumb was considering it, but was shot down by the aoa.

Read below for the KCUMB mess:

http://blogs.do-online.org/dailyreport.php?itemid=37001

Again COCA proves to be a disgustingly useless organization. They along with the AOA barely care about DO's and DO students.

 

[deleted103644]

Again COCA proves to be a disgustingly useless organization. They along with the AOA barely care about DO's and DO students.

Honestly, if I were a DO I would be petitioning anyone in charge to simply switch DO programs to MD programs and be done with it. The OMM legacy is truly embarrassing, and we need more MD programs - I'd rather learn voodoo.

A few of the shadier DO programs would not be able to meet LCME requirements, but they should be shut down anyway.

Also, people should really stop referring to MD programs as allopathic. That's actually a derogatory term created by homeopaths, literally meaning treating diseases with things that cause other symptoms instead of the same symptoms (one of the looney principles of homeopathy).

 

[donkeykong1]

If I walk into a patient's room and they say, "I want to see an MD and not a DO," I will gladly transfer care to a physician of their choice. I expect this will happen less times than I have fingers in my career.

Moot point.

i'd be more surprised if a patient were to discriminate based on MD/DO rather than the gender, race, ...of a physician which sadly happens a lot depending on location.

 

[donkeykong1]

Again COCA proves to be a disgustingly useless organization. They along with the AOA barely care about DO's and DO students.

Its all about the money. Imagine all the lucrative chair, executive, and admin positions, lost if there were to be the absorption of all COCA schools under the LCME umbrella. They are simply fighting for their livelihood.

The part about the AOA barely caring about DOs is changing. Many reforms are taking place, and the old guard is getting replaced by the "modern" DO.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Honestly, if I were a DO I would be petitioning anyone in charge to simply switch DO programs to MD programs and be done with it. The OMM legacy is truly embarrassing, and we need more MD programs - I'd rather learn voodoo.

A few of the shadier DO programs would not be able to meet LCME requirements, but they should be shut down anyway.

Also, people should really stop referring to MD programs as allopathic. That's actually a derogatory term created by homeopaths, literally meaning treating diseases with things that cause other symptoms instead of the same symptoms (one of the looney principles of homeopathy).

It wouldn't matter, the AOA is completely against all and any resolutions to change anything, hell the biggest student osteopathic group petitioned they remove cranial from the education and they outright refused it. The reality is that I don't even think it would be possible to sue the AOA for being a crap organization and not caring about the interests of DO's and DO students.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Its all about the money. Imagine all the lucrative chair, executive, and admin positions, lost if there were to be the absorption of all COCA schools under the LCME umbrella. They are simply fighting for their livelihood.

The part about the AOA barely caring about DOs is changing. Many reforms are taking place, and the old guard is getting replaced by the "modern" DO.

They were invalidated when they broke the trust of all DO's by allowing RVU into existence. Also what reforms?

 

[deleted103644]

It wouldn't matter, the AOA is completely against all and any resolutions to change anything, hell the biggest student osteopathic group petitioned they remove cranial from the education and they outright refused it. The reality is that I don't even think it would be possible to sue the AOA for being a crap organization and not caring about the interests of DO's and DO students.

It would probably have to be done on a school by school basis. Petition your schools to look into getting LCME accreditation. It might have to be done quietly to avoid repercussions from the AOA.

It's really in the best interest of the entire profession. The DO degree needs to die, but I bear no ill will to people who for whatever reasons ended up at a DO school.

 

[donkeykong1]

They were invalidated when they broke the trust of all DO's by allowing RVU into existence. Also what reforms?

Also not to worry by your logic the LCME will be invaldiated once they let California Northstate University College of Medicine and Palm Beach Medical College open their doors as FOR PROFIT MD SCHOOLS.http://www.lcme.org/newschoolprocess.htm


Reforms are more on the CME and osteopathic board certification side of things. Also getting Res.42 for the few states (basically getting your acgme residency approved by the aoa) is much easier. everything is online and whatnot http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a...ing/Pages/trainee-forms-and-applications.aspx

 

[CXCR4]

Having cranial in the curriculum is SHEER lunacy. Being taught it takes away from the credibility of DO physicians.

We seem to be pretty much powerless when it comes to what is being taught.

 

[deleted103644]

Having cranial in the curriculum is SHEER lunacy. Being taught it takes away from the credibility of DO physicians.

We seem to be pretty much powerless when it comes to what is being taught.

Organize the students. I'd wager less than 1% of you guys really believe in the BS, you could easily get a majority of the class on your side.

Lead a rebellion and bring your DO classmates to the other side and freedom from the AOA and OMM.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Also not to worry by your logic the LCME will be invaldiated once they let California Northstate University College of Medicine and Palm Beach Medical College open their doors as FOR PROFIT MD SCHOOLS.http://www.lcme.org/newschoolprocess.htm


Reforms are more on the CME and osteopathic board certification side of things. Also getting Res.42 for the few states (basically getting your acgme residency approved by the aoa) is much easier. everything is online and whatnot http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a...ing/Pages/trainee-forms-and-applications.aspx

Well the Res 42 thing is a +, but yah I doubt Palm Beach will be accredited, it's been an applicant for an extremely long period of time.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Organize the students. I'd wager less than 1% of you guys really believe in the BS, you could easily get a majority of the class on your side.

Lead a rebellion and bring your DO classmates to the other side and freedom from the AOA and OMM.

It's sorta suicidal, the last thing you need to have on your plate is having your OMM professor hate you because you think he's full of ****. But yah, even if most DO student voice against it probably won't lead to changes.

 

[deleted103644]

Also not to worry by your logic the LCME will be invaldiated once they let California Northstate University College of Medicine and Palm Beach Medical College open their doors as FOR PROFIT MD SCHOOLS.http://www.lcme.org/newschoolprocess.htm


Reforms are more on the CME and osteopathic board certification side of things. Also getting Res.42 for the few states (basically getting your acgme residency approved by the aoa) is much easier. everything is online and whatnot http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a...ing/Pages/trainee-forms-and-applications.aspx

The LCME specifically does not allow for-profit schools to get accreditation. Maybe they are applying, but they won't get it.

 

[donkeykong1]

Well the Res 42 thing is a +, but yah I doubt Palm Beach will be accredited, it's been an applicant for an extremely long period of time.

palmbeach med got florida state licensure, and has been an applicant for 20+ months,

california northstate is moving along just fine.
http://www.bizjournals.com/sacramen...ofit-medical-school-moves-ahead.html?page=all

 

[donkeykong1]

The LCME specifically does not allow for-profit schools to get accreditation. Maybe they are applying, but they won't get it.

The mere fact that 2 for profit schools are recognized as applicants by the LCME and a school like UC Riverside was turned down as an applicant says a lot i think.

 

[CXCR4]

It's sorta suicidal, the last thing you need to have on your plate is having your OMM professor hate you because you think he's full of ****. But yah, even if most DO student voice against it probably won't lead to changes.

This is pretty depressing imho. In this day and age you should be able to create positive change without fear of retribution.

 

[OrganicDOc2BE]

It's really impressive how many of the pre-osteo threads are basically tightrope-walking MD vs DO threads. If I get into DO school, am I going to have to listen to this BS until I retire?

I've actually noticed this topic dwindle down the further I get in my training. Nobody cares about your degree. Everybody cares if you're a compassionate and knowledgeable doctor. Such doctors (and bad ones) come from both DO and MD schools. Get over it.

 

[deleted103644]

It's sorta suicidal, the last thing you need to have on your plate is having your OMM professor hate you because you think he's full of ****. But yah, even if most DO student voice against it probably won't lead to changes.

The other option (which would be much less helpful in the short term to you guys) would be for the ACGME to stop accepting DOs (which would be fair play since the AOA doesn't accept MDs).

Within 1-2 classes most DO programs would be seeking LCME accreditation as MD programs.

Then again, this would make it harder to shut down the Caribbean MD programs, which I think is their first priority.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The other option (which would be much less helpful in the short term to you guys) would be for the ACGME to stop accepting DOs (which would be fair play since the AOA doesn't accept MDs).

Within 1-2 classes most DO programs would be seeking LCME accreditation as MD programs.

Then again, this would make it harder to shut down the Caribbean MD programs, which I think is their first priority.

It would effectively mean that 2-5 classes of DO students will be screwed over. In fact in that situation all schools without a significant OPTI or linkage to residency programs will be left without a residency. I mean sure, it accomplishes the goal of getting DO's to transition, but I think it would be better to just have the LCME forcefully accredit schools and forgo the opinion of the AOA such as like what happened in California.

 

[CXCR4]

Good luck trying to get your school to apply for LCME.

 

[donkeykong1]

Good luck trying to get your school to apply for LCME.

If anything the LCME should be licking it chops to absorb some DO schools who have been around for 50+years or are state schools. They are established and can easily add revenue.