Do Residencies know when a class ranking is subjective?

[KinasePro]

Sad to say, at a lot of schools a huge component of AOA is a popularity contest.

Somehow I landed AOA even though I'm not a school cheerleader (helps to have friends in the class above you...). Anyway at our school, all of the scores, ECs, research, and volunteering are just boxes that needs to be checked. All of the eligible students have checked those boxes.

When electing new students, no one cares if you started the free clinic or have 30 publications. If you're in the eligible pool, then its all about personality. The discussion focuses on whether you're an insufferable douche or someone who will reflect well on your medical school. So you need to have positive interactions with most people you've come in contact with. Students who are elected at our school are good team members on clinical rotations and help other medical students on the wards. They share their study resources, lift others up when the opportunity arises, and try to make other people look good in front of attendings. So it's the "soft" skills that ultimately get you into AOA at my school, but you definitely need to have your bases covered from an academic perspective.

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[DokterMom]

Sounds like what your school is trying to tell you (and the rest of the world) is that all of their students are academically qualified and competent, but that their best students are leaders who volunteer in the community and conduct productive research.

Please consider the possibility that they're right.

 

[Greenberg702]

We all know class rankings are an annoying part of med school. My school happens to be "open" and tells us our ranking via quartiles before our Dean's letter goes out.

They tell us it's made up of step scores, core clerkships, research, leadership, volunteer, extracurriculars, and awards. Oh wow, how transparent.

Problem is, in my case. I 've managed to get a step I score in the 250s, and Honors in all but psych in my 3rd year in a system where only the top 25% of each rotation gets honors. Somehow, multiple students with much lower statistics academically are receiving AoA, let alone high ranks, while I was not even placed in the top quartile.

Many of them are suspiciously running school specific programs and ECs with research advisors on the committee of the school. When my friends who received AoA, who know my situation, found out, they literally did not understand it.

This is in a top 20 school in the NE.

Obviously, I am upset, and there are negative factors like a lack of research from a failed project and only moderate ECs (not none). However, it is clear my school is not ranking us academically at all, even though it's a very high ranking institution.

My question is: Do residencies see through this kind of bullsh*t? Do they feel a student who helped run a school created community program, for example, (with 240 and high passes) is more worthy of a position than a person 256 and all Honors in third year who had less ECs/research? Do residencies understand that class rankings can be manipulated by a school and not give a true sense of academic rank?

Yikes. Sorry to hear that. I'm sure you know even better than me where students with your stats matched last year and I think you have a great shot of landing a top 20 program assuming you have good letters.

 

[Greenberg702]

Score report PDFs can be altered.

Even then, in a formula the Step score only counts so much, even if each point matters (vs. ranges) in the formula, it's given a max contribution in the overall formula.

This cracked me up. Did your close friends photoshop their score reports because of their potential to "engender jealousy" ?

 

[DermViser]

This cracked me up. Did your close friends photoshop their score reports because of their potential to "engender jealousy" ?

No, genius. Read the conversation in context. Read above and he said he knew his classmates clerkship scores and Step scores. I highly doubt that is the case.

 

[Greenberg702]

No, genius. Read the conversation in context. Read above and he said he knew his classmates clerkship scores and Step scores. I highly doubt that is the case.

I did read it. He said that he was close to those students and that he saw their score reports. You wrote that score reports can be edited, implying that the students he is close to somehow hoodwinked him and actually took the time to tamper with their reports. To me that sounds kind of crazy (maybe at Hopkins lol).

 

[DermViser]

I did read it. He said that he was close to those students and that he saw their score reports. You wrote that score reports can be edited, implying that the students he is close to somehow hoodwinked him and actually took the time to tamper with their reports. To me that sounds kind of crazy (maybe at Hopkins lol).

It's a freakin PDF. Here's a copy and past from Google Images:

 

[Greenberg702]

It's a freakin PDF. Here's a copy and past from Google Images:

I'm not doubting that it can be fairly easily done. I'm just shocked that people have that kind of attitude and care enough to actually generate a fake PDF to show others.

 

[DermViser]

I'm not doubting that it can be fairly easily done. I'm just shocked that people have that kind of attitude and care enough to actually generate a fake PDF to show others.

Yes, bc it's not like medical school has ever been accused of having a bunch of high achieving, low self-esteem having, overcompensating individuals.

 

[Greenberg702]

Yes, bc it's not like medical school has ever been accused of having a bunch of high achieving, low self-esteem having, overcompensating individuals.

Overcompensating people with low self esteem would likely fake a higher score and not be worried about jealousy enough to forge their score down when showing other people. Either way, this is off topic. Sorry OP.

 

[DermViser]

Overcompensating people with low self esteem would likely fake a higher score and not be worried about jealousy enough to forge their score down when showing other people. Either way, this is off topic. Sorry OP.

You're right. I'm sure the OP's friends in the 1st quartile were 100% honest about their Step 1 scores and their clerkship grades with him/her. After all it's not like the OP is jealous that they got 1st quartile and he/she didn't...oh wait...

 

[username456789]

Sounds like what your school is trying to tell you (and the rest of the world) is that all of their students are academically qualified and competent, but that their best students are leaders who volunteer in the community and conduct productive research.

Please consider the possibility that they're right.

No. Demonstrating this would reasonably be done via AOA selection, not class rank. Class rank literally is a numeric ranking system based on grades.

It's confusing how this is confusing to some people.

 

[operaman]

No. Demonstrating this would reasonably be done via AOA selection, not class rank. Class rank literally is a numeric ranking system based on grades.

It's confusing how this is confusing to some people.

It's all about the criteria for rank. Just because pure GPA is the metric used by high schools and colleges doesn't mean it's a good one or that professional schools should use them as well. The confusion is coming in that some of us are open to the idea of class rank including metrics beyond mere GPA while such a thought is anathema to others. Personally, I think this is a great idea but I know many would disagree.

 

[DokterMom]

No. Demonstrating this would reasonably be done via AOA selection, not class rank. Class rank literally is a numeric ranking system based on grades.

It's confusing how this is confusing to some people.

Is vs. Ought to Be

Class rank generally is a purely numeric academic measure. Except at OP's school where it is not.

It's confusing how this is confusing to some people.

 

[username456789]

Class rank generally is a purely numeric academic measure. Except at OP's school where it is not.

It's confusing how this is confusing to some people.

Right, which is why OP's school is such an outlier. No one is confused about this fact. His school had apparently chosen to completely deviate from what "class rank" actually means, but continue to use the term.

Don't try to parrot back my phrase just because it sounded good the first time.

 

[Wordead]

They tell us it's made up of step scores, core clerkships, research, leadership, volunteer, extracurriculars, and awards. Oh wow, how transparent.

Dude, they gave you 7 criteria for AOA selection. You have only 2/7. Why do you think you deserve AOA then?

 

[DermViser]

Dude, they gave you 7 criteria for AOA selection. You have only 2/7. Why do you think you deserve AOA then?

To be fair he didn't say he deserved AOA selection, he believes he should have been in the 1st quartile. Yes, it is a difference.

 

[DokterMom]

Right, which is why OP's school is such an outlier. No one is confused about this fact. His school had apparently chosen to completely deviate from what "class rank" actually means, but continue to use the term.

Don't try to parrot back my phrase just because it sounded good the first time.

Apologies GWDS -- My reply was marginally snarkier than yours -

 

[tellmemore2020]

It's all about the criteria for rank. Just because pure GPA is the metric used by high schools and colleges doesn't mean it's a good one or that professional schools should use them as well. The confusion is coming in that some of us are open to the idea of class rank including metrics beyond mere GPA while such a thought is anathema to others. Personally, I think this is a great idea but I know many would disagree.

There is no good way to put a number on extracurricular things and the system of OP just muddies the water. Yes, we know that intangibles are what make a person and matter in residency selection, but it would be nice to know where OP stands ACADEMICALLY within his/her class. Also, does one need to submit a list of EC's to be ranked?

 

[Doodl3s]

Wow this blew up!

I appreciate the discussion both for and against my reasoning. The clear up some confusion. My school uses the same ranking system for AoA and Class rank, the system that takes into account all the things I originally mentioned. Their view of transparency is telling is it's those things, and then never telling us the acutal equations or formula (ie. zero actual transparency)

I am 100% aware I dont deserve AoA. My research project fell through (no papers) and I did all (but only) the basic ECs like being a TA, a tutor, work in my community clinic on weekends, etc... nothing to write home about.

A few advisors I spoke to about this so far have sort of agreed my step and clerkships are very high for my grade (they obviously don't want to make clear confirmations), and give the line about my lack of ECs and research.

My original question was unfortunately agreed upon that: No, residencies will not make their own ranking of me and WILL use the rank they see on my Dean's letter.

This begs the question, are the residencies not receiving a false view of how well I did in med school. I feel like it's safe to assume that when residencies see a student from my school, with a higher quartile, the residency will assume, "wow, this must have been a strong class of people who did better than him on the Step and Clerkships, which would be untrue (according to my knowledge of peers, which you have all have also raised into question)

I think that's the problem, I'm okay with my school using whatever they want for AoA, but not creating a ranking system that will be falsely interpreted by residencies. Residencies won't realize what they're seeing is a made up class rank that's subjective to the school's made up formula and not based on anything objective/tangible.

Also, yes, you need to submit the stuff you did in med school into a "portfolio" program my school has before they write the dean's letter.

 

[jw3600]

To be fair he didn't say he deserved AOA selection, he believes he should have been in the 1st quartile. Yes, it is a difference.

And I agree with him. I think schools should feel free to make up their own criteria like the Howitzer-Schmidt-Takanawa ratings to determine who they nominate (I forget the official word for this) for AOA. It can include anything from hairline, to poker skills, to academic performance. It just seems stupid and frankly unfair to students to start fudging class ranks when you very well damn know residencies ASSUME without exception it is a numerical comparison to the class. Like many have said they are not going to dig further than that. I personally think it's bull****. Rank him last for AOA for all I care but don't deny him his earned spot in a numerical ranking.

 

[DermViser]

Don't try to parrot back my phrase just because it sounded good the first time.

When I read that, I got the image of:

 

[WongoBongo]

I agree with you OP. I can see the argument that you shouldn't have gotten AOA because of your relative lack of ECs, research, etc. (as frustrating as it is to many) but it makes absolutely no sense to alter class rank to include these things because nobody with any common knowledge of what a class rank means would think that membership on your student council or volunteering at your school's free clinic would be factored.

It also baffles my why so many people and "advisors" are being obnoxious and holier than thou moralists about your reasonable frustrations that are also extremely common among other medical students. Are you complaining about the system because of how you felt it wronged you? Sure, but you and some others have brought up extremely good points that 1) many ECs are basically resume padders (smh @ benefit to society comment) and have no place in an objective ranking, and 2) that a class rank is nearly universally considered to be a quantitative (or at least semi-quantitative measure) that includes grades and MAYBE board scores. Again, if its in in the AOA criteria that's the rules but it's been well documented that many people feel that's not really a fair system either.

Also LOL at the idea of somebody altering their score report to make it LOWER. To suggest that the OP should expect that multiple people he is close with would do that and that it should be part of a reasonable explanation of why he should just deal with not being top 25% is flat out sensationalism and ridiculous advice, even for a place like this forum.

 

[DermViser]

Also LOL at the idea of somebody altering their score report to make it LOWER. To suggest that the OP should expect that multiple people he is close with would do that and that it should be part of a reasonable explanation of why he should just deal with not being top 25% is flat out sensationalism and ridiculous advice, even for a place like this forum.

People who he is close with know him the best. If they like him but still feel that he can get unnecessarily jealous it wouldn't suprise me, in order to maintain his friendship. The OP made it seems like he knows everyone's grades and Step scores and he was sure he deserved 1st quartile over them. What I and others were saying is that he isn't privy to that information. Med students lie to save face. OP doesn't know the entire story.

 

[Doodl3s]

OP here to follow up.

Met with one of the deans. Voiced my concerns about how schools will not understand the ranking is not quantitative. Dean responded with canned "how can we say that for sure?" response.

They confirmed had the ranking system been based on grades and Step I, I would have been in the top quartile.

They noted that they believe ranking should take into account step I, grades, ECs, research, awards, gold humanism (a peer voted popularity award...), etc...

The meeting ended with "I suppose we have a fundamental disagreement in how ranking should be done"

I knew I wasn't going to gain anything out of the meeting, I was more looking for some rational reasoning and was surprised at the lack of justification of their argument other than "we differ in what we think of rankings, sorry, you should have done more ECs/research"

...on the other hand, some of you have agreed my school has the right to rank however they want... In the end, I'd literally be a different ranking if I had chosen a different medical school with the same caliber of students. sucks to be me.

/thread

 

[DermViser]

OP here to follow up.

Met with one of the deans. Voiced my concerns about how schools will not understand the ranking is not quantitative. Dean responded with canned "how can we say that for sure?" response.

They confirmed had the ranking system been based on grades and Step I, I would have been in the top quartile.

They noted that they believe ranking should take into account step I, grades, ECs, research, awards, gold humanism (a peer voted popularity award...), etc...

The meeting ended with "I suppose we have a fundamental disagreement in how ranking should be done"

I knew I wasn't going to gain anything out of the meeting, I was more looking for some rational reasoning and was surprised at the lack of justification of their argument other than "we differ in what we think of rankings, sorry, you should have done more ECs/research"

...on the other hand, some of you have agreed my school has the right to rank however they want... In the end, I'd literally be a different ranking if I had chosen a different medical school with the same caliber of students. sucks to be me.

/thread

Believe it or not, I do feel bad for you. I am not at all shocked your Dean responded that way. They will always protect the system over a med student. I believe medical schools should be transparent on how class ranks are calculated. Period. I can't believe getting the Arnold P. Gold Humanism award factors into your class rank, that is ridiculous. Now you know why many alumni tell the med school to go f' themselves when it comes to alumni donations. As far as your specialty choice, it shouldn't matter. You'll do fine.

 

[jw3600]

For what it's worth, I think a fair amount of people in this thread agreed that, while separate from AOA, class ranking should be mainly, if not all numerical.

 

[DermViser]

For what it's worth, I think a fair amount of people in this thread agreed that, while separate from AOA, class ranking should be mainly, if not all numerical.

Most did, but not all.

A school can decide the number of pushups you can do in 3 minutes should factor into your class rank. The key is that students should know, or be proactive to know early on how exactly it is tabulated. So if he knew MS-1 that research and ECs factored in and it was very much possible to have the numbers and still not rank in the first quartile then it's something he knew but ignored at his own peril.

He probably maxed out on the Step 1 score and nearly maxed out on the clerkship grades portion of the formula, but didn't on the research and ECs portion of the formula. Which he goes to a "true" P/F school so he could have partipated in those things during those 2 years.

 

[jw3600]

Most did, but not all.

A school can decide the number of pushups you can do in 3 minutes should factor into your class rank. The key is that students should know, or be proactive to know early on how exactly it is tabulated. So if he knew MS-1 that research and ECs factored in and it was very much possible to have the numbers and still not rank in the first quartile then it's something he knew but ignored at his own peril.

He probably maxed out on the Step 1 score and nearly maxed out on the clerkship grades portion of the formula, but didn't on the research and ECs portion of the formula. Which he goes to a "true" P/F school so he could have partipated in those things during those 2 years.

I agree. That was more or less what I said in an earlier post. My overall view on this isn't really that medical schools shouldn't have the right to rank their class however they want. It is more I feel like they are unfairly allowing some students to have rankings that are artificially low in PD's eyes because of simply not knowing that school's system. Now like you said, if it was laid out early, I guess it isn't so bad. Makes me want to email my dean about ranking tomorrow.

 

[DermViser]

I agree. That was more or less what I said in an earlier post. My overall view on this isn't really that medical schools shouldn't have the right to rank their class however they want. It is more I feel like they are unfairly allowing some students to have rankings that are artificially low in PD's eyes because of simply not knowing that school's system. Now like you said, if it was laid out early, I guess it isn't so bad. Makes me want to email my dean about ranking tomorrow.

For all we know I'm sure his MSPE might actually state this.