DO residencies

[Premedgirl27]

So I am wondering besides family/internal medicine, what types of residencies are practical for DO med students to attain? And what are other common specialties they go into?

Does the DO school you attend make a huge difference as to which residencies you are able to attain? Thanks


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[Dustbowl12]

DOs can get into any specialty they want. There are ortho, derm, plastics, etc DO residencies

Its harder for DOs to match in some of the ultra competitive "MD" residencies and this difficulty has been eroding year after year but it still remains.

MD and DO residencies are merging and noone knows what this will mean for people moving forward.

For worst case scenario, cynicism and selfhating opinions, use search function

 

[IslandStyle808]

I list the ones off the top of my head (besides those two you have mentioned): pediatrics, anesthesiology, radiology, neurology, PM&R, psychiatry, pathology.

Ones that are on the border of practical: emergency medicine, general surgery, OBGYN.

Ones that are possible, but not practical (if you include the AOA match): urology, ophthalmology, orthopedic surgery.

Ones that are like playing powerball: dermatology, ENT, plastic surgery, vascular surgery, thoracic surgery, neurosurgery, radiation oncology.

Well, people are going to have disagreements with my list. However, the lists will be pretty similar.

As for the question of whether the school matters, yes and no. It helps if they have a department in the field you are interested in. This can help you understand the field more, get some research opportunities, and possibly have an inside track advantage to that program. However, other than that there is no real difference amongst programs. Main thing is that you do well in school.

 

[TheOther]

Also keep in mind that DO residencies are more community-based than academic, which can affect fellowship placements. But for the most part, the list above is pretty good. I'd bump EM up though and replace it with pathology.

 

[Premedgirl27]

I list the ones off the top of my head (besides those two you have mentioned): pediatrics, anesthesiology, radiology, neurology, PM&R, psychiatry.

Ones that are on the border of practical: emergency medicine, general surgery, OBGYN.

Ones that are possible, but not practical (if you include the AOA match): urology, ophthalmology, orthopedic surgery.

Ones that are like playing powerball: dermatology, ENT, plastic surgery, vascular surgery, thoracic surgery, radiation oncology.

Well, people are going to have disagreements with my list. However, the lists will be pretty similar.

As for the question of whether the school matters, yes and no. It helps if they have a department in the field you are interested in. This can help you understand the field more, get some research opportunities, and possibly have an inside track advantage to that program. However, other than that there is no real difference amongst programs. Main thing is that you do well in school.

I thought that anesthesia was a pretty competitive specialty?


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[redman93]

Also keep in mind that DO residencies are more community-based than academic, which can affect fellowship placements. But for the most part, the list above is pretty good. I'd bump EM up though and replace it with pathology.

"Bump EM up" as in it's more or less practical for DOs?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I thought that anesthesia was a pretty competitive specialty?


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Not any more. You will have to work really hard for top places but with average scores you are likely to match if you aren't picky about location and prestige

 

[Premedgirl27]

Not any more. You will have to work really hard for top places but with average scores you are likely to match if you aren't picky about location and prestige

Ohh ok. Just curious, why is it no longer popular? Thanks


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[IslandStyle808]

I thought that anesthesia was a pretty competitive specialty?


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Radiology and anesthesiology used to be competitive in the early 2000s. In the case of radiology, competition decreased because of saturation of the market with radiologist (due to radical increase in residencies). Plus they are not reimbursed like they used to be. In the case of anesthesiology, part of it is the rise in anesthesiology management groups. These are groups that try to cut costs to the hospitals by using anesthesia cRNAs teams lead by an anesthesiologist. This forced anesthesiologists to worker harder hours, with less pay, less vacation, and worst of all with less autonomy. There are other reasons for its decline, but someone familiar with the field could explain it better than myself.

 

[DO2015CA]

Obgyn should be pretty easy. There are a number of DO programs that didn't fill match this year and I don't think they were with malignant programs. Also, there are a number MD obgyn places that are open to DOs including UC Davis in California which is historically a DO unfriendly state

 

[TheOther]

"Bump EM up" as in it's more or less practical for DOs?

More practical. It's one of highest matched specialties for DOs in recent years.

 

[Premedgirl27]

Obgyn should be pretty easy. There are a number of DO programs that didn't fill match this year and I don't think they were with malignant programs. Also, there are a number MD obgyn places that are open to DOs including UC Davis in California which is historically a DO unfriendly state

Oh didn't know that. I am a CA resident.


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[DO2015CA]

Oh didn't know that. I am a CA resident.


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Me too obviously haha and kinda wanna go to UCD for residency

 

[TheOther]

Obgyn should be pretty easy. There are a number of DO programs that didn't fill match this year and I don't think they were with malignant programs. Also, there are a number MD obgyn places that are open to DOs including UC Davis in California which is historically a DO unfriendly state

With the pursuit of single accreditation at hand, I was also shocked to see that a DO had match EM at USC. Unheard of.

 

[DO2015CA]

With the pursuit of single accreditation at hand, I was also shocked to see that a DO had match EM at USC. Unheard of.

For EM USC is a great school. Their ER sees a lot... a prestigious school in the middle of the ghetto

 

[TheOther]

For EM USC is a great school. Their ER sees a lot... a prestigious school in the middle of the ghetto

It's just incredible to see DOs matching at programs that are notorious for taking only MDs (majority of CA academic programs).

 

[DO2015CA]

It's just incredible to see DOs matching at programs that are notorious for taking only MDs (majority of CA academic programs).

Yes, it is an exciting time. It will really mean something when they start matching surgeons... my suspicion is it won't be for a long time

 

[TheOther]

Yes, it is an exciting time. It will really mean something when they start matching surgeons... my suspicion is it won't be for a long time

Who knows? Hopefully sooner than later!

 

[Teioh]

I list the ones off the top of my head (besides those two you have mentioned): pediatrics, anesthesiology, radiology, neurology, PM&R, psychiatry, pathology.

Ones that are on the border of practical: emergency medicine, general surgery, OBGYN.

Ones that are possible, but not practical (if you include the AOA match): urology, ophthalmology, orthopedic surgery.

Ones that are like playing powerball: dermatology, ENT, plastic surgery, vascular surgery, thoracic surgery, radiation oncology.

Well, people are going to have disagreements with my list. However, the lists will be pretty similar.

As for the question of whether the school matters, yes and no. It helps if they have a department in the field you are interested in. This can help you understand the field more, get some research opportunities, and possibly have an inside track advantage to that program. However, other than that there is no real difference amongst programs. Main thing is that you do well in school.

Lots of good information as usual. You think you can include some of the IM subspecialties in your list? A lot of people think of IM in the most basic sense and say yeah IM = DO all day every day. It's one thing to be a hospitalist, but a totally different thing to be a gastro...

Also, probably a poor question, but do AOA residencies offer fellowships?

 

[Premedgirl27]

Me too obviously haha and kinda wanna go to UCD for residency

That would be awesome place for residency, they have nice medical center! Do you know how many DOs they take each year or does it vary?


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[DO2015CA]

That would be awesome place for residency, they have nice medical center! Do you know how many DOs they take each year or does it vary?


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I don't think they have a quota for DOs but I see 1 in their obgyn residency, 1 in their peds, and I met 1 in FM. I haven't looked extensively through their resident lists because I'm only interested in a select few specialties. Your best bet when looking for MD residencies, pick a few specialities that are interesting to you and look through their resident list and see if they have any current or recent graduate DOs and how many.

 

[tdangie123]

It's just incredible to see DOs matching at programs that are notorious for taking only MDs (majority of CA academic programs).

Still waiting for a DO to match in the IM program of NYU... Honestly once that happens I think DOs will be seen as more "equal" to our MD counterparts, at least in the eyes of PDs.

 

[tdangie123]

Still waiting for a DO to match in the IM program of NYU... Honestly once that happens I think DOs will be seen as more "equal" to our MD counterparts, at least in the eyes of PDs.

But I doubt that's gonna happen anytime soon

 

[OverlyRomantic]

Still waiting for a DO to match in the IM program of NYU... Honestly once that happens I think DOs will be seen as more "equal" to our MD counterparts, at least in the eyes of PDs.

But I doubt that's gonna happen anytime soon

It still says they don't accept DOs into their program on their website. I think that'll be one of the last programs to get on the DO train

EDIT: HOLY **** SEE BELOW

 

[IslandStyle808]

Lots of good information as usual. You think you can include some of the IM subspecialties in your list? A lot of people think of IM in the most basic sense and say yeah IM = DO all day every day. It's one thing to be a hospitalist, but a totally different thing to be a gastro...

Also, probably a poor question, but do AOA residencies offer fellowships?

Definitely agree that their are differences in terms of how IM will be practiced in the future. Now the chances of matching into IM subspecialties vary depending on the residency program one matches into. So what may seem like a "powerball" fellowship as a DO student seems totally possible once that student matching into a well regarded residency. Here is a general listing of how the tiers work for residency:

top tier university program > mid tier university program > low tier university program > communo-university program >> community program.

The higher on the list you are, the better your chances of matching into a competitive fellowship. Coming from a DO school, one is an underdog in terms of getting a competitive residency. So if you look on the NRMP fellowship match report matching you will see that DO students (77.6% match rate) match at a lower percentage than US MD students (86.7% match rate). This difference again is attributed to DO student in general matching into a lesser tier residency, not simply because of DO discrimination (I have a feeling an attending or resident will counter this statement, hence why I put 'not simply').

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Results-and-Data-SMS-2015.pdf

Now for the list, this will be dependent on where you are in the residency chain and very little about whether you are a DO or not:

**(spot : applicant ratio)

Easy: Nephrology (1 : 0.7) , Infectious Diseases (1 : 0.8), Geriatric Medicine (1 : 0.5)

Normal: Endocrine (1 : 1.2), Rheumatology (1 : 1.2)

Hard: Cardiology (1:1.4), Heme/Onco (1:1.4), Pulmonology/Critical Care (1:1.5)

Legendary/Powerball: Gastroenterology (1 : 1.6) ( <-- kind of messing with @AlteredScale since he likes Gastro, it is probably in the realm of hard)


DO have a near impossible time with matching into top tier IM, but have done so in mid tier university programs. So if you match into a mid-tier program then even gastro is doable.

 

[dramatrauma]

It still says they don't accept DOs into their program on their website. I think that'll be one of the last programs to get on the DO train

Just found this on the NYU IM Residency FAQs:

 

[TheOther]

Just found this on the NYU IM Residency FAQs:
View attachment 200895

That's a step, I suppose!

 

[IslandStyle808]

Just found this on the NYU IM Residency FAQs:
View attachment 200895

@Goro is going to love this!

 

[Goro]

Offhand, my students go into:


Gas
EM
PM&R
Peds
Gen Surg (5% odds, just like at every other med school in the country)
Psych
Radiology

So I am wondering besides family/internal medicine, what types of residencies are practical for DO med students to attain? And what are other common specialties they go into?

Does the DO school you attend make a huge difference as to which residencies you are able to attain? Thanks


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[Goro]

Tell it to the Meat Torpedo.

@Goro is going to love this!

Just found this on the NYU IM Residency FAQs:

 

[DO2015CA]

Interview yes but they won't match someone. It's just because they can't just say no anymore due to the merge

 

[OverlyRomantic]

Interview yes but they won't match someone. It's just because they can't just say no anymore due to the merge

True, but I'm still surprised that this was changed on the website. Time will tell!

 

[DO2015CA]

True, but I'm still surprised that this was changed on the website. Time will tell!

They had to its part of the agreement for the merger

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Yeah i'm not surprised they took it off their website, I will be surprised if they take DOs anytime soon. Who knows, maybe some superstar will break in.

 

[Mad Jack]

I list the ones off the top of my head (besides those two you have mentioned): pediatrics, anesthesiology, radiology, neurology, PM&R, psychiatry, pathology.

Ones that are on the border of practical: emergency medicine, general surgery, OBGYN.

Ones that are possible, but not practical (if you include the AOA match): urology, ophthalmology, orthopedic surgery.

Ones that are like playing powerball: dermatology, ENT, plastic surgery, vascular surgery, thoracic surgery, radiation oncology.

Well, people are going to have disagreements with my list. However, the lists will be pretty similar.

As for the question of whether the school matters, yes and no. It helps if they have a department in the field you are interested in. This can help you understand the field more, get some research opportunities, and possibly have an inside track advantage to that program. However, other than that there is no real difference amongst programs. Main thing is that you do well in school.

Only big one I'd disagree with is EM- there are piles and piles of AOA EM residencies, and DOs actually tend to do reasonably well in the NRMP match for EM. Certainly better than general surgery. To give you an idea, roughly 12-16 people match EM from my school every year, whereas only 1-2 match general surgery (AOA or ACGME).

 

[IslandStyle808]

Only big one I'd disagree with is EM- there are piles and piles of AOA EM residencies, and DOs actually tend to do reasonably well in the NRMP match for EM. Certainly better than general surgery. To give you an idea, roughly 12-16 people match EM from my school every year, whereas only 1-2 match general surgery (AOA or ACGME).

Yeah hard part is looking at both lists and figuring out what is reasonable and which one is not. For instance OBGYN has completely filled its spots in the NRMP match, but there are still spots after the NMS match. However, you have a good point about the EM residencies because it does seem reasonable when you crunch the numbers. I think I keep getting swayed by those posters who make getting into EM harder than it seems. It is shocking to know so few match into general surgery form your school.

 

[Halcyon45]

I list the ones off the top of my head (besides those two you have mentioned): pediatrics, anesthesiology, radiology, neurology, PM&R, psychiatry, pathology.

Ones that are on the border of practical: emergency medicine, general surgery, OBGYN.

Ones that are possible, but not practical (if you include the AOA match): urology, ophthalmology, orthopedic surgery.

Ones that are like playing powerball: dermatology, ENT, plastic surgery, vascular surgery, thoracic surgery, radiation oncology.

Well, people are going to have disagreements with my list. However, the lists will be pretty similar.

As for the question of whether the school matters, yes and no. It helps if they have a department in the field you are interested in. This can help you understand the field more, get some research opportunities, and possibly have an inside track advantage to that program. However, other than that there is no real difference amongst programs. Main thing is that you do well in school.

Half of my orthopedic clinic (biggest in MN) is made of DO's, not sure if orthopedic surgery is "not practical" at all. The place I shadow at has tons of pediatric orthopedic surgeons who are DO's

 

[IslandStyle808]

Half of my orthopedic clinic (biggest in MN) is made of DO's, not sure if orthopedic surgery is "not practical" at all. The place I shadow at has tons of pediatric orthopedic surgeons who are DO's

I bet most were AOA trained, since there are a lot of AOA orthopedic surgery residencies. However, if you look at the NRMP match, it is extremely difficult for DO students to match. To top it all off the amount of audition rotations on the DO side can limit ones chances in match, since most DO residencies take students who rotate with them. I also remember places looking for people with rather good level I scores as well. You could put in the border of practical, but it isn't practical though.

This is what I found from the NMS:

https://natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/AACOM-NMS-Apr4-14.pdf

Can't really make heads or tails of the data, but it shows pg. 20 that ortho is on the higher end of competitiveness. I wish they gave a percentage though of how many match.

 

[kenjixshadow]

Yeah hard part is looking at both lists and figuring out what is reasonable and which one is not. For instance OBGYN has completely filled its spots in the NRMP match, but there are still spots after the NMS match. However, you have a good point about the EM residencies because it does seem reasonable when you crunch the numbers. I think I keep getting swayed by those posters who make getting into EM harder than it seems. It is shocking to know so few match into general surgery form your school.

This cycle for EM is more competitive than ever. Two years ago, the average of DO matched into ACGME with Step 1 score was 230 and that number is going up now. In 2015-2016 thread, lots of MD candidates with 250+/260+ pop up left and right. Granted, they were also the ppl who got the most interview invites whereas DO students got invites off of the waitlists or have late interviews. Moreover, I was shock to see one DO student with 225 and 258 on step 1 and 2 respectively, applied to 40 programs (mostly SE and decent number of NE and midwest ones), and only gotten 3 interviews (2 from away sites). Nevertheless, DO students will still safely able to match with AOA programs for a short time until the merge.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Only big one I'd disagree with is EM- there are piles and piles of AOA EM residencies, and DOs actually tend to do reasonably well in the NRMP match for EM. Certainly better than general surgery. To give you an idea, roughly 12-16 people match EM from my school every year, whereas only 1-2 match general surgery (AOA or ACGME).

I wonder if it has something to do with the nature of general surgery residency. If you aren't a surgery die hard then it can definitely be a turn off.

 

[Blunt Dissection]

A note on Plastics for D.Os - from my research, integrated plastics is out of reach for even the most competitive D.O applicants. I think the last time a D.O matched into an integrated plastics program was in '07. However, General Surg into a Plastics fellowship is doable for D.Os.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

A note on Plastics for D.Os - from my research, integrated plastics is out of reach for even the most competitive D.O applicants. I think the last time a D.O matched into an integrated plastics program was in '07. However, General Surg into a Plastics fellowship is doable for D.Os.

Look at KCOMs match list from last year. N=1 but sometimes the Hail Mary lands.

Agreed though that plastics is basically a dream. Just pointing out that some one has actually done it

 

[WedgeDawg]

I list the ones off the top of my head (besides those two you have mentioned): pediatrics, anesthesiology, radiology, neurology, PM&R, psychiatry, pathology.

Ones that are on the border of practical: emergency medicine, general surgery, OBGYN.

Ones that are possible, but not practical (if you include the AOA match): urology, ophthalmology, orthopedic surgery.

Ones that are like playing powerball: dermatology, ENT, plastic surgery, vascular surgery, thoracic surgery, radiation oncology.

Well, people are going to have disagreements with my list. However, the lists will be pretty similar.

I think this list is fairly accurate. I would move vascular surgery to possible but not practical (if you're talking fellowship post GS residency), though if you're talking I5, then it's in the right place. I would also put neurosurgery (which isn't on your list) in the powerball category. I've generally included urology and ophtho in powerball as well, but if they have a good number of AOA slots, then they might be in the right place here.

 

[IslandStyle808]

.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I think this list is fairly accurate. I would move vascular surgery to possible but not practical (if you're talking fellowship post GS residency), though if you're talking I5, then it's in the right place. I would also put neurosurgery (which isn't on your list) in the powerball category. I've generally included urology and ophtho in powerball as well, but if they have a good number of AOA slots, then they might be in the right place here.

Yeah it is really a pain in the butt trying to think of how competitive all these specialities are. Just put neurosurgery in the powerball category. Your right in that urology and ophthalmology has a lower amount of spots. It is hard to make a balanced list when considering the AOA and ACGME matches. However, it would just move up or down one category for the most part. Had a feeling the responses would turn out like this LOL.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I think this list is fairly accurate. I would move vascular surgery to possible but not practical (if you're talking fellowship post GS residency), though if you're talking I5, then it's in the right place. I would also put neurosurgery (which isn't on your list) in the powerball category. I've generally included urology and ophtho in powerball as well, but if they have a good number of AOA slots, then they might be in the right place here.

.

Something I find interesting is that in the AOA match there are only 1.3 applicants per NS spot. Obviously there is more than a little self selection but it seems that the people who really want NS and do everything they can to get it end up having a decent chance. I read somewhere on these forums from an AOA NS resident that you have to decide you want NS with every fiber of your being from day one and if you make it to the applying stage you might be alright.

But no DO should bank on being that one guy that gets MD neuro surg. At least the powerball is bias free

 

[WedgeDawg]

Yeah it is really a pain in the butt trying to think of how competitive all these specialities are. Just put neurosurgery in the powerball category. Your right in that urology and ophthalmology has a lower amount of spots. It is hard to make a balanced list when considering the AOA and ACGME matches. However, it would just move up or down one category for the most part. Had a feeling the responses would turn out like this LOL.

Not at all saying its a bad list - I actually think it's very good (in my inexpert opinion). Just wanted to add my own thoughts to the pile. You were right in that some people might categorize certain specialties slightly differently, but in the end, it ultimately doesn't matter significantly, as they're all quite competitive regardless of how we choose to classify them (it's like debating a 39 vs a 41 on the MCAT).

 

[Mad Jack]

I wonder if it has something to do with the nature of general surgery residency. If you aren't a surgery die hard then it can definitely be a turn off.

General surgery has just gotten far more competitive than it used to be. There's plenty of kids in my class that want to be surgeons, definitely as many as there are interested in EM, but there's just a lot less surgery residencies that are DO friendly.

 

[cliquesh]

Definitely agree that their are differences in terms of how IM will be practiced in the future. Now the chances of matching into IM subspecialties vary depending on the residency program one matches into. So what may seem like a "powerball" fellowship as a DO student seems totally possible once that student matching into a well regarded residency. Here is a general listing of how the tiers work for residency:

top tier university program > mid tier university program > low tier university program > communo-university program >> community program.

The higher on the list you are, the better your chances of matching into a competitive fellowship. Coming from a DO school, one is an underdog in terms of getting a competitive residency. So if you look on the NRMP fellowship match report matching you will see that DO students (77.6% match rate) match at a lower percentage than US MD students (86.7% match rate). This difference again is attributed to DO student in general matching into a lesser tier residency, not simply because of DO discrimination (I have a feeling an attending or resident will counter this statement, hence why I put 'not simply').

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Results-and-Data-SMS-2015.pdf

Now for the list, this will be dependent on where you are in the residency chain and very little about whether you are a DO or not:

**(spot : applicant ratio)

Easy: Nephrology (1 : 0.7) , Infectious Diseases (1 : 0.8), Geriatric Medicine (1 : 0.5)

Normal: Endocrine (1 : 1.2), Rheumatology (1 : 1.2)

Hard: Cardiology (1:1.4), Heme/Onco (1:1.4), Pulmonology/Critical Care (1:1.5)

Legendary/Powerball: Gastroenterology (1 : 1.6) ( <-- kind of messing with @AlteredScale since he likes Gastro, it is probably in the realm of hard)


DO have a near impossible time with matching into top tier IM, but have done so in mid tier university programs. So if you match into a mid-tier program then even gastro is doable.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/chartingoutcomessms2011.pdf also contains useful data. It gives the specific number of DOs who applied for the fellowship and how many matched. DOs applying for Cardiology and hem/onc had about a 66% match rate. Those applying for GI had a 33% match rate. The rest ranged from 50% to about 75%.

 

[Goro]

As the Arabs say, "Inshallah."

Interview yes but they won't match someone. It's just because they can't just say no anymore due to the merge