DO Residencies

[dozitgetchahi]

Why is matching into an MD residency better than matching into a DO residency? For example (probably a bad one), if I want to be a cardiologist and match into a DO residency that allows me to pursue cardiology, how would I be at a disadvantage compared to an DO that got a MD residency match?

In some cases, it's because graduates of AOA-certified (DO) residencies are viewed, either rightly or wrongly, as being inferior to ACGME graduates of the same specialty because the two governing boards require different numbers of cases, etc to graduate. Based on some of the other discussions we've had here on the subject, this seems to be a particularly big problem for DO residency graduates in anesthesiology and various surgical subspecialties.

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[scotchtapetest]

As instatewaiter correctly points out, the one DO who matched for integrated plastics does not indicate that DOs can get ANY ACGME residency they want, which is really the main point of contention. You are harboring two very common pre-med misconceptions:

1. That all residency programs in a specialty are equal. In the world of surgery, there can be tremendous differences between the average university program compared to community programs. For all you know this person could have matched to the lowest ranked plastics program in the country. While still a great accomplishment that I'm really not trying to disparage, to claim that a DO can get into ANY program based on this is simply untrue. As an example closer to my line of work, one can find many DOs in Internal Medicine, but none will be found in the IM residencies of Columbia, Mount Sinai, or New York Hospital. And this isn't for lack of trying.

2. That the person who matched for plastics did it solely based on merit. Again, your naivete is apparent here. It's not uncommon at all for people to obtain residencies in both ACGME and AOA programs based on previous work or research experience with a particular attending who has influence on the residency selection committee, or sometimes just outright nepotism.

To reiterate the take-home message here (and answer the original posting in this thread) is that while DOs can get good residencies, the idea that we can get any great residency position simply by working hard enough is fiction. Even for getting competitive specialties in programs that are open to DOs, you will have to work much harder than an American MD applicant.

I don't know if anybody else has said what I'm about to say but I don't have time to read the entire thread and I think Dr. Still once said that repetition is the key anyways:

Since starting my osteopathic education I have noticed a very clear trend with some DO attendings, especially those in/from NYC area, who for whatever reason associate not securing a spot in the city (i.e. Manhattan) in the top programs (e.g. Columbia, NYU, Mt. Sinai) with being a DO. It's kind of like when parents associate their child's Autism with vaccination (I mean their child is perfect it HAS to be the vaccination). Their logic is basically that, I know I'm smart/qualified (my family told me so), I am a DO, I didn't get into Columbia so it must be because that I am a DO.

We actually had a lecturer second year with the same dilemma that this attending seems to have. This individual is now the chair of a major department in the biggest medical center in that state, but he/she is still sour that he/she didn't get a spot "in the city". While forgetting that if it wasn't for osteopathic medicine and the DO behind his/her name, he/she probably would've been the head of the Custodial Engineering Department instead (people with this mentality have usually exhausted all other options before applying DO).

People talk about DO vs MD as if all MD schools are created equal. They talk about Columbia and DO as if the only requirement is to be an American MD and voila you are the new resident at Columbia. I strongly suggest that you closely inspect the residents from the mentioned schools or from the other Ivy League schools. They almost exclusively come from the top 20 MD school. Yes, at each school there has been 1-2 in every specialty that violate this rule every year (that's out of 30,000+ residency applicants). But the vast vast vast majority are from the top 20 MD schools. For example, take a look at Columbia's radiology residents (it's even harder than IM), there are total of 7-8 from non-top 20 MD schools and there is 1 from an osteopathic school (UNECOM) out of 43 residents and alumni. So if you compare DO schools with non-top 20 MD schools, statistically, we are over-represented at Columbia Radiology.
http://www.cumcradiology.org/wiki3/welcome

So my point is that if you are not going to the top 20 MD schools, the likelihood of you getting a spot in one of those "prized" residencies is next to nothing. Regardless of whether you have a DO or MD behind your name.

Therefore, if you can get into the top 20 MD schools, you should definitely, without a doubt go there. Otherwise, for all practical purposes (i.e. 99.9% of applicants) there is no difference in the residency outcome/possibilities between the other ~100 MD schools and the established DO schools (been open for more than 10 years).

 

[Instatewaiter]

Therefore, if you can get into the top 20 MD schools, you should definitely, without a doubt go there. Otherwise, for all practical purposes (i.e. 99.9% of applicants) there is no difference in the residency outcome/possibilities between the other ~100 MD schools and the established DO schools (been open for more than 10 years).

Yeah that's not true.

I went to an unranked MD school. Almost 10% of my class ended up at either MGH (harvard), Hopkins, Duke, Yale, UCSF, Mayo or Cleveland Clinic instead of just 1 or 2 students

 

[Dissected]

Yeah that's not true.

I went to an unranked MD school. Almost 10% of my class ended up at either MGH (harvard), Hopkins, Duke, Yale, UCSF, Mayo or Cleveland Clinic instead of just 1 or 2 students

I have no idea where his/her ideas come from. They are completely warped. Although the one example of an isolated radiology residency and his DO school is pretty convincing...

Bala--
Like it or not there is still a bias in a lot of programs. That's not something that will change because you choose not to accept it. Can you be successful? Without a doubt. But its not an equal playing field in a lot of ACGME specialties.

 

[scotchtapetest]

Yeah that's not true.

I went to an unranked MD school. Almost 10% of my class ended up at either MGH (harvard), Hopkins, Duke, Yale, UCSF, Mayo or Cleveland Clinic instead of just 1 or 2 students

OK let's assume that your numbers are correct. For the sake of this argument we assume that 10% of all MD students from "unranked" MD schools go to these top residencies. So there are ~120 MD schools with approx. 15,000+ US MD seniors and we will ignore the top 20 MD school; Simple math:

10% * (100/120) * (15000) = 1250

I doubt MGH (harvard), Hopkins, Duke, Yale, UCSF, Mayo or Cleveland Clinic take 1250 residents let alone 1250 just from "unranked" schools!

It is very simple just go to each residency and look at their current residents! Roughly 90% of THEIR residents come from their own school or another top school. So only 10% of the spots in the top 10% of residencies are open for other students. Do the math, it will only allow them to take 1% of the remaining applicant pool.

By the way I said 1-2 residents/specialty/institution/year. Just to be clear.

 

[scotchtapetest]

I have no idea where his/her ideas come from. They are completely warped. Although the one example of an isolated radiology residency and his DO school is pretty convincing...

Bala--
Like it or not there is still a bias in a lot of programs. That's not something that will change because you choose not to accept it. Can you be successful? Without a doubt. But its not an equal playing field in a lot of ACGME specialties.

I did not say there is no bias. I said, such schools have a bias against you if you didn't go to the top 20 US MD schools period. Is not b/c of your DO degree; You would have the same bias if you attended University of Arkansas, Univ. of Alabama, Univ. of North Dakota or any other run of the mill medical school.

 

[DrWBD]

For example, take a look at Columbia's radiology residents (it's even harder than IM), there are total of 7-8 from non-top 20 MD schools and there is 1 from an osteopathic school (UNECOM) out of 43 residents and alumni. So if you compare DO schools with non-top 20 MD schools, statistically, we are over-represented at Columbia Radiology.
http://www.cumcradiology.org/wiki3/welcome

http://www.rsna.org/Foundation/Roentgen.cfm

It looks to me like that resident was probably orphaned when St. Vincent's Hospital closed its doors last year. The ACGME probably relocated him to Columbia's radiology program to finish his training. I highly doubt he matched there as a PGY-2 with that caliber of competition.

 

[Parts Unknown]

I doubt MGH (harvard), Hopkins, Duke, Yale, UCSF, Mayo or Cleveland Clinic take 1250 residents

Here is an easy way to prove your assertion.

Go to the ACGME page that lists sponsoring institutions: http://www.acgme.org/adspublic/

Click "sponsoring institutions" on the left and search each of the seven institutions listed above. Tally the total number of filled positions at each place.

Report back.

 

[scotchtapetest]

Here is an easy way to prove your assertion.

Go to the ACGME page that lists sponsoring institutions: http://www.acgme.org/adspublic/

Click "sponsoring institutions" on the left and search each of the seven institutions listed above. Tally the total number of filled positions at each place.

Report back.

Thanks for the source!

OK, I was wrong; There are roughly about 4000+ PGY1 spots at MGH (harvard), Hopkins, Duke, Yale, UCSF, Mayo and Cleveland Clinic combined.

However, this neither proves nor disproves my main point which as I mentioned previously was that such schools have a bias against you if you didn't go to the top 20 US MD schools. Is not b/c of your DO degree; You would have the same bias if you attended University of Arkansas, Univ. of Alabama, Univ. of North Dakota or any other run of the mill medical school. Look at their residents, year after year, the vast majority come from the same 15-20 schools and each year there is always 1-2 who come from an average school (MD and DO).

You also have to consider that osteopathic students represent less than 20% of US graduates out of which about half do NOT enter ACGME (whether they didn't apply or matched AOA first). So osteopathic students represent less than 10% of all US graduates entering the ACGME match. Therefore, if one can find 1 DO student at the abovementioned institutions for every 10 MD students from a run of the mill allopathic school, osteopathic students will be statistically well represented.

Just as a side note, I don't mean to offend anybody or any school. Needless to say, graduating physicians from "run of the mill" medical schools are great physicians.

 

[Sam212]

Thanks for the source!

OK, I was wrong; There are roughly about 4000+ PGY1 spots at MGH (harvard), Hopkins, Duke, Yale, UCSF, Mayo and Cleveland Clinic combined.

However, this neither proves nor disproves my main point which as I mentioned previously was that such schools have a bias against you if you didn't go to the top 20 US MD schools. Is not b/c of your DO degree; You would have the same bias if you attended University of Arkansas, Univ. of Alabama, Univ. of North Dakota or any other run of the mill medical school. Look at their residents, year after year, the vast majority come from the same 15-20 schools and each year there is always 1-2 who come from an average school (MD and DO).

You also have to consider that osteopathic students represent less than 20% of US graduates out of which about half do NOT enter ACGME (whether they didn’t apply or matched AOA first). So osteopathic students represent less than 10% of all US graduates entering the ACGME match. Therefore, if one can find 1 DO student at the abovementioned institutions for every 10 MD students from a run of the mill allopathic school, osteopathic students will be statistically well represented.

Just as a side note, I don’t mean to offend anybody or any school. Needless to say, graduating physicians from “run of the mill” medical schools are great physicians.

you care to tell me why there aren't any DO's at Cincy or Carolinas or Denver's EM program when they are filled with residents from "run of the mill" MD schools?

 

[Flushot]

Why is matching into an MD residency better than matching into a DO residency? For example (probably a bad one), if I want to be a cardiologist and match into a DO residency that allows me to pursue cardiology, how would I be at a disadvantage compared to an DO that got a MD residency match?

This thread might be a reason for some:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=766509

For others, location has a lot to do with it. I am interested in EM and that alone already limits my options to only a handful of states.

EDIT - Oops, didn't see that this was on the first page...

 

[scotchtapetest]

you care to tell me why there aren't any DO's at Cincy or Carolinas or Denver's EM program when they are filled with residents from "run of the mill" MD schools?

You can't be serious! Cincy's IM program has quite a few DO students and U. of SC as well as UC denver IM programs have DO students in their programs. So it is not an institutional bias at least for those schools…. Also Carolinas don't have an osteopathic program in their state or their neighboring states so you'll see lower stats.
I don't have time to look up every residency for every school and we are talking about the top residencies not your average state school here. There are plenty of DO students in average ACGME programs especially in non-surgical fields.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

You can’t be serious! Cincy's IM program has quite a few DO students and U. of SC as well as UC denver IM programs have DO students in their programs. So it is not an institutional bias at least for those schools…. Also Carolinas don’t have an osteopathic program in their state or their neighboring states so you’ll see lower stats.
I don’t have time to look up every residency for every school and we are talking about the top residencies not your average state school here. There are plenty of DO students in average ACGME programs especially in non-surgical fields.

You sure are shouting a lot.

I am visiting from the anesthesiology forum and am pretty far removed from med school and the residency application process and have to confess that I have not read this thread in its entirety in one sittng.

I think the point that you are missing is that DO's do face certain bias, and it may not even be at the "top" programs in any one particular field. You can choose to believe this or not.

I think that if you go on the surgery forum on SDN you will find that most of the regular users over there readily admit that there may be a bias against DO's at a number of surgical programs, especially since it is sort of an "old- boy" sort of specialty.

There are many DO's in many excellent anesthesiology residencies, even the "top" ones. HOWEVER, DO's are SHUT OUT of certain residencies in anesthesiology and I can only assume this is due to bias. The three examples I can give you are Stanford, Columbia and UVa. I don't think any of these have ever had a DO resident. These places are all fine places to train as an anesthesiologist, but I don't think any of them qualify as a "top" residency in anesthesiology.

There is always going to be a mythical DO student that matches in derm or plastics or whatever and in fact at one point I personally knew one of these "legends" so it does happen - albeit very rarely. Everyone thinks they can be this mythical student but the reality is that very few can.

 

[Parts Unknown]

However, this neither proves nor disproves my main point which as I mentioned previously was that such schools have a bias against you if you didn't go to the top 20 US MD schools. Is not b/c of your DO degree; You would have the same bias if you attended University of Arkansas, Univ. of Alabama, Univ. of North Dakota or any other run of the mill medical school. Look at their residents, year after year, the vast majority come from the same 15-20 schools and each year there is always 1-2 who come from an average school (MD and DO).

Actually the only thing it proves is that you are prone to drawing sweeping conclusions without a clear idea of the underlying data.

Frankly, it is not up to us to disprove that an MD from Arkansas, Alabama, or North Dakota carries an equivalent bias as a hypothetical everyDO. It's up to you to substantiate this argument.

Remember to show all your work. We're waiting.

 

[koennen]

You sure are shouting a lot.

I think the point that you are missing is that DO's do face certain bias, and it may not even be at the "top" programs in any one particular field. You can choose to believe this or not.

This is true. I can name 5 programs at my hospital that won't take DOs. They never have and, I am told, they never will. And we're not a "top" school, these are not "top" programs, nor are they even in the uber-competitive specialties. In fact, Family Medicine in one of them.

By the way, I go to school in Philadelphia. With PCOM in Philly and UMDNJ 25 minutes across the bridge in New Jersey, the bias is not due being unfamiliar with DOs.

 

[scotchtapetest]

I apologize to anybody who was offended by my posts. For whatever reason, apparently some people are comforted by this concept!

I've made the points I wanted to make and I guess we have to agree to disagree on this particular issue.

Good luck to everyone!

 

[Dissected]

I apologize to anybody who was offended by my posts.

I'm pretty sure nobody was offended..I think we are all just scratching our heads about how oblivious you are coming across. It seems like most of us (myself included) have talked to PD's or other individuals with connections at certain programs that will openly admit that a bias is there. But anyway, I hope you get into the specialty of your choice and live happily ever after.

 

[Rollo]

This is true. I can name 5 programs at my hospital that won't take DOs. They never have and, I am told, they never will. And we're not a "top" school, these are not "top" programs, nor are they even in the uber-competitive specialties. In fact, Family Medicine in one of them.

By the way, I go to school in Philadelphia. With PCOM in Philly and UMDNJ 25 minutes across the bridge in New Jersey, the bias is not due being unfamiliar with DOs.

Curiously, which hospital is this? And/or the programs?

 

[Dharma]

Wow you guys are really just running around in circles playing tag here. Most of this just seems like common sense, and those who don't get it are in denial. (Be honest with yourself and you will realize which camp you fall into).

 

[dozitgetchahi]

You sure are shouting a lot.

I am visiting from the anesthesiology forum and am pretty far removed from med school and the residency application process and have to confess that I have not read this thread in its entirety in one sittng.

I think the point that you are missing is that DO's do face certain bias, and it may not even be at the "top" programs in any one particular field. You can choose to believe this or not.

I think that if you go on the surgery forum on SDN you will find that most of the regular users over there readily admit that there may be a bias against DO's at a number of surgical programs, especially since it is sort of an "old- boy" sort of specialty.

There are many DO's in many excellent anesthesiology residencies, even the "top" ones. HOWEVER, DO's are SHUT OUT of certain residencies in anesthesiology and I can only assume this is due to bias. The three examples I can give you are Stanford, Columbia and UVa. I don't think any of these have ever had a DO resident. These places are all fine places to train as an anesthesiologist, but I don't think any of them qualify as a "top" residency in anesthesiology.

There is always going to be a mythical DO student that matches in derm or plastics or whatever and in fact at one point I personally knew one of these "legends" so it does happen - albeit very rarely. Everyone thinks they can be this mythical student but the reality is that very few can.

You raise some good points here, Arch. A couple questions:

1) Do you have any idea why anesthesiology is more open to DOs than so many other competitive specialties? For instance, UMDNJ-SOM seems to be able to fairly reliably match people to gas residencies at places like the Cleveland Clinic, but they have less luck matching strong students to hardcore residencies in other specialties. Do you have any thoughts on this?

2) How often do those "mythical" DO students match because they have some sort of insider connection (i.e., their uncle is a director of an allo plastics residency, etc)? In other words, are those mythical contenders truly powerhouse students with world-class credentials, or are they at least partially a product of luck and advantages that the rest of us can't hope to have?

 

[dozitgetchahi]

Curiously, which hospital is this? And/or the programs?

Hahahaha I have an inkling this is Drexel/Hahnemann...but I could be wrong.

 

[JaggerPlate]

There still exists some DO bias in the ACGME world ... why bother debating, crunching pointless numbers, relaying anecdotal experiences, etc.

I reserve the right to change my opinion at any time (especially because I'm new to this game), but a. the bias is breaking down year by year, but don't expect to match ACGME integrated plastics as a DO just because people are making strides or bc you're 'awesome,' and b. until MDs are able to apply for AOA residencies, the idea of ACGME PDs showing 'bias' seems kind of funny to me.

 

[Rollo]

Hahahaha I have an inkling this is Drexel/Hahnemann...but I could be wrong.

Could be. But I see lot of DOs in their residency programs (including 4 in radiology).

 

[newbie04]

This is true. I can name 5 programs at my hospital that won't take DOs. They never have and, I am told, they never will. And we're not a "top" school, these are not "top" programs, nor are they even in the uber-competitive specialties. In fact, Family Medicine in one of them.

By the way, I go to school in Philadelphia. With PCOM in Philly and UMDNJ 25 minutes across the bridge in New Jersey, the bias is not due being unfamiliar with DOs.

Curiously, which hospital is this? And/or the programs?

It's most likely Jefferson. I'm pretty sure even their Family Medicine program doesn't take DOs. However, they have DOs in other fields like anesthesiology.

 

[DrWBD]

1) Do you have any idea why anesthesiology is more open to DOs than so many other competitive specialties? For instance, UMDNJ-SOM seems to be able to fairly reliably match people to gas residencies at places like the Cleveland Clinic, but they have less luck matching strong students to hardcore residencies in other specialties. Do you have any thoughts on this?

One reason could be that the competitiveness of Anesthesiology as a residency is somewhat less now than the past. But I think the major reason is that the people who are big shots in Anesthesiology now trained back when it wasn't a very desirable residency, and they are "giving back" a bit.

Here is a nice article about the history of Anesthesiology as a specialty. From the article:

Anesthesiology has undergone a large swing in desirability among residency candidates in recent years. There was a move favoring it in the late 1980's fueled by high income associated with the reimbursement rates paid to physicians who billed based on the number of procedures they performed. Anesthesiologists were near the very top of all physician earners at that time. In the early 1990's there was the institution of the Resource Based Relative Value Scale that was designed to financially reward cognitive activities of physicians to increase fairness in compensation and to reduce health costs at the expense of more procedurally oriented physician reimbursement. Anesthesiologists, being in this latter group saw their real income reduced by Medicare, Medicaid and insurers by a nearly one third decrement. This caused some dynamic changes within the residency training community. Because practicing anesthesiologists were not retiring as rapidly due to the decreased compensation, newly trained anesthesiologists were not being hired when they completed residency. If they were, the track to partnership within a group was greatly prolonged and there were reports of extreme predatory practices. Once again, the less highly regarded and foreign medical school residency applicant looked to anesthesiology for an opportunity, as other areas of medical study remained closed to them. The number of American medical school graduates choosing anesthesiology reached its nadir in 1995, but has been steadily increasing ever since then. In 2002, anesthesiology residency competition is a keen as it has ever been for American graduates and so new elements in selection are being tested each year.

Only a few years ago, residency selection committees did not consider board scores in determining whether to interview an anesthesiology American graduate. Now, a board score above 200 is necessary to be interviewed at select programs. Candidates who have not yet passed the USMLE Step 1 are not even considered by many programs. A few years ago, residency programs paid for the travel expenses and hotel accommodation of interviewing candidates who were American medical school graduates. Today, some programs debate whether to pay for parking. So, times are changing in anesthesiology selectivity and successful candidates will have to adjust accordingly.​

 

[dozitgetchahi]

One reason could be that the competitiveness of Anesthesiology as a residency is somewhat less now than the past. But I think the major reason is that the people who are big shots in Anesthesiology now trained back when it wasn't a very desirable residency, and they are "giving back" a bit.

Here is a nice article about the history of Anesthesiology as a specialty. From the article:

Anesthesiology has undergone a large swing in desirability among residency candidates in recent years. There was a move favoring it in the late 1980’s fueled by high income associated with the reimbursement rates paid to physicians who billed based on the number of procedures they performed. Anesthesiologists were near the very top of all physician earners at that time. In the early 1990’s there was the institution of the Resource Based Relative Value Scale that was designed to financially reward cognitive activities of physicians to increase fairness in compensation and to reduce health costs at the expense of more procedurally oriented physician reimbursement. Anesthesiologists, being in this latter group saw their real income reduced by Medicare, Medicaid and insurers by a nearly one third decrement. This caused some dynamic changes within the residency training community. Because practicing anesthesiologists were not retiring as rapidly due to the decreased compensation, newly trained anesthesiologists were not being hired when they completed residency. If they were, the track to partnership within a group was greatly prolonged and there were reports of extreme predatory practices. Once again, the less highly regarded and foreign medical school residency applicant looked to anesthesiology for an opportunity, as other areas of medical study remained closed to them. The number of American medical school graduates choosing anesthesiology reached its nadir in 1995, but has been steadily increasing ever since then. In 2002, anesthesiology residency competition is a keen as it has ever been for American graduates and so new elements in selection are being tested each year.

Only a few years ago, residency selection committees did not consider board scores in determining whether to interview an anesthesiology American graduate. Now, a board score above 200 is necessary to be interviewed at select programs. Candidates who have not yet passed the USMLE Step 1 are not even considered by many programs. A few years ago, residency programs paid for the travel expenses and hotel accommodation of interviewing candidates who were American medical school graduates. Today, some programs debate whether to pay for parking. So, times are changing in anesthesiology selectivity and successful candidates will have to adjust accordingly.​

Thanks, that was a really interesting article. I had no idea gas was so much less competitive so recently. It really goes to show that predicting which specialties will be in demand in even the near future is quite a challenge.

 

[TeamZissou]

Thanks, that was a really interesting article. I had no idea gas was so much less competitive so recently. It really goes to show that predicting which specialties will be in demand in even the near future is quite a challenge.

Closer to impossible without knowing what kind of *****ic legislation this country will pass.

 

[Law2Doc]

Closer to impossible without knowing what kind of *****ic legislation this country will pass.

Also bear in mind that anesthesiology has had a very up and down history in terms of competitiveness -- basically a roller coaster ride vacillating between a ROAD level specialty to minimally competitive -- so this is probably the one field you really don't want to extrapolate from.

I think the short answer is this. A lot of allo residencies don't show as much interest in DO grads as many on here would like. They would rather get grads from the allo schools they are more familiar with. Whether this translates into only the 10% of weaker allo programs getting the nod doesn't really alter the analysis. (And bear in mind that the 10% is not necessarily the "top" 10% -- connections, board scores etc play a greater role than either med school grades or school name in this game). You can find numerous allo residencies in competitive fields which have only had 0-1 DO grad match the past eg 5 years, while those same places probably had dozens of "lower tier allo" grads. Is this statistically important, given the number of "lower tier allo" folks who still didn't get the nod? Perhaps not, in a buying a lottery ticket/random event analysis. But sometimes playing for a very low but existing chance is better than playing for virtually no chance, when you actually have some control over things (such as networking, grades, scores, the application process, interviews). Just my two cents.

 

[smq123]

Curiously, which hospital is this? And/or the programs?

Probably Jefferson. Their FM, surgery, OB/gyn, rads, ophtho, neurosurg, rad onc, urology, and derm programs do not take DOs. (The FM program there doesn't even take FMGs/IMGs, as far as I am aware.) They do have many DOs, though, in their anesthesia, PM&R, EM, and neuro program.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

I think the short answer is this. A lot of allo residencies don't show as much interest in DO grads as many on here would like. They would rather get grads from the allo schools they are more familiar with. Whether this translates into only the 10% of weaker allo programs getting the nod doesn't really alter the analysis. (And bear in mind that the 10% is not necessarily the "top" 10% -- connections, board scores etc play a greater role than either med school grades or school name in this game). You can find numerous allo residencies in competitive fields which have only had 0-1 DO grad match the past eg 5 years, while those same places probably had dozens of "lower tier allo" grads. Is this statistically important, given the number of "lower tier allo" folks who still didn't get the nod? Perhaps not, in a buying a lottery ticket/random event analysis. But sometimes playing for a very low but existing chance is better than playing for virtually no chance, when you actually have some control over things (such as networking, grades, scores, the application process, interviews). Just my two cents.

Good point. This is why I wish someone complied data on how many DOs, MDs, etc applied to and/or interviewed at each residency annually. As it stands, we don't really know the breakdown of who applied to any given residency on any given year, right? (Correct me if I'm wrong.) We just see the outcome of the process (i.e., a match list). If a program has only matched one DO in the last 5 years but has had, say, only 5 or 10 total DO applicants in that period of time, that's a whole other ball game vs. a program that had dozens of DO applicants but maybe only let 1 through.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Good point. This is why I wish someone complied data on how many DOs, MDs, etc applied to and/or interviewed at each residency annually. As it stands, we don't really know the breakdown of who applied to any given residency on any given year, right? (Correct me if I'm wrong.) We just see the outcome of the process (i.e., a match list). If a program has only matched one DO in the last 5 years but has had, say, only 5 or 10 total DO applicants in that period of time, that's a whole other ball game vs. a program that had dozens of DO applicants but maybe only let 1 through.

Agreed. Granted, I don't think there is some conspiracy out there to skew the data so it looks like DOs absolutely can't match certain places or that hundreds apply to a certain spot and they take a DO every leap year, but match lists are heavily referenced on SDN and never really paint the entire picture (like in this instance). Additionally, I find it odd that certain programs, like Jefferson's, won't take DOs, but places like MGH, JH, Mayo, other big names, etc will. I definitely think it's the exception (a 'no DO policy'), but it's just kinda weird. Maybe they feel like PCOM invades their turf??? Shrug.

 

[DOtoCanada]

1-make up ur mind.
2-get off ur high horse. Just because you may have gone through a process does not mean that everyone else preparing to go through the same process know nothing about it. You know nothing more about me than "pre-med" in my status. I doubt that's nearly enough to guage my level of knowledge (whatever that level may be).
3-if the attending whom I disagreed with felt as angry as u do because of the credentials of the person disagreeing with him, I doubt he needs ur representation.
4-I don't mean for this to be a hostile conversation but "snotty nosed little premed"? Really? Grow up. Don't go insulting someone just because the only thing between u two is cyberspace. I'm sure half the provocative comments I see on these forums wouldn't be said if people were looking each other face to face. Have some internet etiquette..

Back to the point, if you want to go through your life setting limits for urself that's fine and dandy. If a competitive residency acgme is a rare occurrence for a DO, then it is still possible. The one person who did it must have done something right along the way. Amazing usmle + rotations + LoRs + good interview skills will get you there. Sure, most people would take the competitive AOA match and opt out of the ACGME match since they may be scared of not rematching but under the right circumstances it is not impossible. Might have been impossible for you and/the attending for whatever reason in your career, but by no means is it Impossible for everyone.

Cheers

First of all, you need to pull your head out of the clouds and think in realistic terms. It is possible? On the very extreme end of things, yes it is slightly possible. Is it probable? Hell no. Perhaps one out of every 1000 DO grads who apply will land a competitive ACGME residency but they all have top 1-2% board scores and almost all of them have an additional Masters/Ph.D. or have extensive research and publications and connections at the site.

Secondly, I don't want to seem petty but you really need to take the extra 0.2 seconds to spell out your words. "U" ≠ "you." It may seem like a little thing, but small things like this can make a rather large impression on people like attendings and medical school staff. Little slips like this in an email or a note will reflect negatively on you as a student. This is jargon of 14 year old girls on cell phones, not an aspiring physician-to-be. This may be an internet posting board, but professionalism needs to be practiced everywhere, especially when speaking with people who have been doing what you want to do since you were in diapers. You may think that this board provides anonymity but you would be shocked who can figure out who you are. Two people at my school were scolded for their postings by administration because subtle clues in their postings gave away their identity. Be more careful and respectful, especially when dealing with attendings, be it on message boards or otherwise.

Lastly, watch the attitude with other people. If you gave even a HINT of that attitude to an attending or a resident in school they would snap you back in place so fast it'd make your head spin and you'd be made to look like a complete idiot in front of your patients, your peers and the hospital staff. And trust me, they will have absolutely no qualms with doing so, especially if they feel it is warranted.

 

[Dissected]

Closer to impossible without knowing what kind of *****ic legislation this country will pass.

 

[smq123]

Additionally, I find it odd that certain programs, like Jefferson's, won't take DOs, but places like MGH, JH, Mayo, other big names, etc will. I definitely think it's the exception (a 'no DO policy'), but it's just kinda weird. Maybe they feel like PCOM invades their turf??? Shrug.

There is no feeling that PCOM "invades their turf." PCOM is on the extreme western edge of the city that it is, relatively speaking, so far away that you don't really notice them. Plus, Penn sits between the two institutions, so it's a pretty effective barrier.

It's a program-by-program thing. The programs listed above receive so many applications, and interview so many people, that they have to draw the line somewhere. And you draw the line at whichever point makes it manageable, with regards to interview season. If they got fewer apps from US allopathic schools, they probably would interview DOs, but they're pretty overwhelmed as it is. It's not like Jefferson "won't take DOs," particularly as they have many (both residents and attendings) in certain fields, notably anesthesia and EM.

 

[JaggerPlate]

There is no feeling that PCOM "invades their turf." PCOM is on the extreme western edge of the city that it is, relatively speaking, so far away that you don't really notice them. Plus, Penn sits between the two institutions, so it's a pretty effective barrier.

It's a program-by-program thing. The programs listed above receive so many applications, and interview so many people, that they have to draw the line somewhere. And you draw the line at whichever point makes it manageable, with regards to interview season. If they got fewer apps from US allopathic schools, they probably would interview DOs, but they're pretty overwhelmed as it is. It's not like Jefferson "won't take DOs," particularly as they have many (both residents and attendings) in certain fields, notably anesthesia and EM.

Makes sense. I guess I just don't think about Jefferson as one of those places that would get a ton of apps. Again though, I'm not at that stage yet.

 

[TeamZissou]

Also bear in mind that anesthesiology has had a very up and down history in terms of competitiveness -- basically a roller coaster ride vacillating between a ROAD level specialty to minimally competitive -- so this is probably the one field you really don't want to extrapolate from.

I think the short answer is this. A lot of allo residencies don't show as much interest in DO grads as many on here would like. They would rather get grads from the allo schools they are more familiar with. Whether this translates into only the 10% of weaker allo programs getting the nod doesn't really alter the analysis. (And bear in mind that the 10% is not necessarily the "top" 10% -- connections, board scores etc play a greater role than either med school grades or school name in this game). You can find numerous allo residencies in competitive fields which have only had 0-1 DO grad match the past eg 5 years, while those same places probably had dozens of "lower tier allo" grads. Is this statistically important, given the number of "lower tier allo" folks who still didn't get the nod? Perhaps not, in a buying a lottery ticket/random event analysis. But sometimes playing for a very low but existing chance is better than playing for virtually no chance, when you actually have some control over things (such as networking, grades, scores, the application process, interviews). Just my two cents.

Solid post with valuable perspective, newbies take note!

 

[group_theory]

There is no feeling that PCOM "invades their turf." PCOM is on the extreme western edge of the city that it is, relatively speaking, so far away that you don't really notice them. Plus, Penn sits between the two institutions, so it's a pretty effective barrier.

It's a program-by-program thing. The programs listed above receive so many applications, and interview so many people, that they have to draw the line somewhere. And you draw the line at whichever point makes it manageable, with regards to interview season. If they got fewer apps from US allopathic schools, they probably would interview DOs, but they're pretty overwhelmed as it is. It's not like Jefferson "won't take DOs," particularly as they have many (both residents and attendings) in certain fields, notably anesthesia and EM.

Makes sense. I guess I just don't think about Jefferson as one of those places that would get a ton of apps. Again though, I'm not at that stage yet.

Actually it doesn't surprise me. Many mid-tiers and upcoming ACGME programs may show more bias than top-tier programs. These mid-tiers and upcoming ACGME programs want to attract the best and brightest US MD students, and feel that having too many DOs in their program will hinder their ability to recruit (just like having too many IMGs/FMGs will make it harder to recruit US graduates). So they may avoid DO applicants on purpose. Top tier programs (like Harvard, Mayo, Hopkins) already have their reputation so are not as concern about having DOs (or even FMGs/IMGs) in their programs.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Actually it doesn't surprise me. Many mid-tiers and upcoming ACGME programs may show more bias than top-tier programs. These mid-tiers and upcoming ACGME programs want to attract the best and brightest US MD students, and feel that having too many DOs in their program will hinder their ability to recruit (just like having too many IMGs/FMGs will make it harder to recruit US graduates). So they may avoid DO applicants on purpose. Top tier programs (like Harvard, Mayo, Hopkins) already have their reputation so are not as concern about having DOs (or even FMGs/IMGs) in their programs.

Makes even more sense.

 

[jamesh1011]

Colbert has given sound advice on getting MD residency spots. Competitive ones are just that, competitive for MD and DO alike. But....I am at a large MD university and on our residency selection committee for my speciality. And if you want a competitive spot and you are a DO you are a little disadvantged. But not out of the running by any means. Take the USMLE, get good grades and rotate a month at the program you want to attend. It is doable!

 

[DdrumbumD]

There is a do school with a students matching harvard anesth....mayo derm....and allo rad onc....just study hard and be a team player.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Colbert has given sound advice on getting MD residency spots. Competitive ones are just that, competitive for MD and DO alike. But....I am at a large MD university and on our residency selection committee for my speciality. And if you want a competitive spot and you are a DO you are a little disadvantged. But not out of the running by any means. Take the USMLE, get good grades and rotate a month at the program you want to attend. It is doable!

Nicely said and good to hear!

There is a do school with a students matching harvard anesth....mayo derm....and allo rad onc....just study hard and be a team player.

Be realistic though. The DOs matching ACGME rad onc and Mayo derm are absolute ballers. Don't expect to be sitting in the bottom 1/4 of your class with a 200 USMLE and land ACGME PRS because you're easy to get along with, you know?? This is probably just as true (at the top programs) for US MDs as well. As previously stated ... these spots are simply competitive.

 

[DdrumbumD]

U missed my point....study hard aka rock ur boards and be a team player aka be awesome in clinical years and do research

 

[JaggerPlate]

U missed my point....study hard aka rock ur boards and be a team player aka be awesome in clinical years and do research

Nah, I got that ... but I still think people should be realistic and apply smart.

 

[DdrumbumD]

Agreed. I've heard stories of ppl doing really well in school only to be let down by not matching because they didn't know how to work the matchi wonder how different things would be if do match was after allo match