DO Residencies

[ModelOD]

.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Slane]

You can get whatever residency you want provided you're willing to put in the effort to earn your spot there. MD's don't have exclusive access to any residencies. For some of the more competitive ones, you may have to take the USMLE along with the COMLEX and apply to MD and DO residencies.

 

[JW08]

Ok so I am currently under a lot of stress right now. My dad's father was a very well known MD who graduated at the top of his medical school. I told my dad the other day that I was thinking about going the DO route and he went on this rant about myself not being able to get a great residency post medical school. I need some assurance that this is not the case. I shadowed an opthamologist and was very interested in this specialty; Do DO's get residencys such as the opthalmology caliber?

Also, please don't take this question as though I am putting down the DO field. I feel as though I have just been drenched with the idea of DO's being inferior to MD's, however, I don't feel this whatsoever.

Thank you all for your responses!

If you can get into MD school, just go MD route. DO degree is not going to help you much as a Ophthalmologist (I don't think you can do any OMM on eyes ).
If your scores makes it difficult to get in to MD school, tell your dad its either DO degree or nothing... he should be able to understand your situation

 

[Colbert]

Do DO's get MD optho spots? Rarely. Are there DO optho residencies? You bet.

The truth is for the most competitive fields (optho being one of them), you need to be at the upper escelon of your class, boards, get publications, etc. To be a DO and go after MD spots in the most competitive fields is even more difficult. Yes, it has been done. And yes, someone will have a story about "I know this guy that did it." In fact I'm actually rotating at a program right now where last year's chief resident landed a fellowship at Harvard. But truth be told if you want an MD optho spot you're better of going MD. Now, if you just want optho, you can pursue the DO optho residencies.

If you're interested in seeing the DO residencies, check out http://opportunities.osteopathic.org

 

[DrWBD]

You can get whatever residency you want provided you're willing to put in the effort to earn your spot there.

No.

 

[Skippygonenuts]

No.

Yes.

 

[Instatewaiter]

You realize he's an attending right? You know, having gone through med school, the match and all. And you haven't even started medical school.

 

[Hernandez]

(I don't think you can do any OMM on eyes ).

/thread

Yes you can, but it'll be hard and many fail trying.....

 

[Khirurg]

You can get whatever residency you want provided you're willing to put in the effort to earn your spot there. MD's don't have exclusive access to any residencies. For some of the more competitive ones, you may have to take the USMLE along with the COMLEX and apply to MD and DO residencies.

you are living in the La La land if you still believe in that...

 

[DrWBD]

Yes.

You realize he's an attending right? You know, having gone through med school, the match and all. And you haven't even started medical school.

Experience? What experience?

 

[MedicinaeDoctor]

/thread

Yes you can, but it'll be hard and many fail trying.....

I can't tell if you were joking. Is it actually possible to do some level of OMT in ophth?

 

[FutureCTDoc]

I can't tell if you were joking. Is it actually possible to do some level of OMT in ophth?

Yes, massaging cataracts always works.

 

[st2205]

I can't tell if you were joking. Is it actually possible to do some level of OMT in ophth?

In theory, yes, but you won't be manipulating the eyes. It would lie within cranial osteopathy.

 

[Skippygonenuts]

You realize he's an attending right? You know, having gone through med school, the match and all. And you haven't even started medical school.

So ur telling me the DO who matched MD plastics in 2009 match should be considered nonreproducible to EVERY other DO out there because an attending said so?

Sure...

 

[Colbert]

So ur telling me the DO who matched MD plastics in 2009 match should be considered nonreproducible to EVERY other DO out there because an attending said so?

Sure...

Oh how I enjoy n=1 samples to defend a statement.

 

[nlax30]

/thread

Yes you can, but it'll be hard and many fail trying.....

Early pioneers of eye OMT.....

 

[Instatewaiter]

So ur telling me the DO who matched MD plastics in 2009 match should be considered nonreproducible to EVERY other DO out there because an attending said so?

Sure...

First of all, that was not what I was saying. What I was saying is that a snotty nosed little pre-med should not be telling an attending how the match works.

Second, yes actually. That single plastics match should be considered non-reproducible. There was 1 DO who matched in 2009. 0 matched in 2008, 0 matched in 2007, 0 matched in 2006 and 0 matched in 2010. That is all the data we have. It was not reproduced.

 

[Skippygonenuts]

First of all, that was not what I was saying. What I was saying is that a snotty nosed little pre-med should not be telling an attending how the match works.

Second, yes actually. That single plastics match should be considered non-reproducible. There was 1 DO who matched in 2009. 0 matched in 2008, 0 matched in 2007, 0 matched in 2006 and 0 matched in 2010. That is all the data we have. It was not reproduced.

1-make up ur mind.
2-get off ur high horse. Just because you may have gone through a process does not mean that everyone else preparing to go through the same process know nothing about it. You know nothing more about me than "pre-med" in my status. I doubt that's nearly enough to guage my level of knowledge (whatever that level may be).
3-if the attending whom I disagreed with felt as angry as u do because of the credentials of the person disagreeing with him, I doubt he needs ur representation.
4-I don't mean for this to be a hostile conversation but "snotty nosed little premed"? Really? Grow up. Don't go insulting someone just because the only thing between u two is cyberspace. I'm sure half the provocative comments I see on these forums wouldn't be said if people were looking each other face to face. Have some internet etiquette..

Back to the point, if you want to go through your life setting limits for urself that's fine and dandy. If a competitive residency acgme is a rare occurrence for a DO, then it is still possible. The one person who did it must have done something right along the way. Amazing usmle + rotations + LoRs + good interview skills will get you there. Sure, most people would take the competitive AOA match and opt out of the ACGME match since they may be scared of not rematching but under the right circumstances it is not impossible. Might have been impossible for you and/the attending for whatever reason in your career, but by no means is it Impossible for everyone.

Cheers

 

[DrWBD]

Back to the point, if you want to go through your life setting limits for urself that's fine and dandy. If a competitive residency acgme is a rare occurrence for a DO, then it is still possible. The one person who did it must have done something right along the way. Amazing usmle + rotations + LoRs + good interview skills will get you there. Sure, most people would take the competitive AOA match and opt out of the ACGME match since they may be scared of not rematching but under the right circumstances it is not impossible. Might have been impossible for you and/the attending for whatever reason in your career, but by no means is it Impossible for everyone.

Cheers

As instatewaiter correctly points out, the one DO who matched for integrated plastics does not indicate that DOs can get ANY ACGME residency they want, which is really the main point of contention. You are harboring two very common pre-med misconceptions:

1. That all residency programs in a specialty are equal. In the world of surgery, there can be tremendous differences between the average university program compared to community programs. For all you know this person could have matched to the lowest ranked plastics program in the country. While still a great accomplishment that I'm really not trying to disparage, to claim that a DO can get into ANY program based on this is simply untrue. As an example closer to my line of work, one can find many DOs in Internal Medicine, but none will be found in the IM residencies of Columbia, Mount Sinai, or New York Hospital. And this isn't for lack of trying.

2. That the person who matched for plastics did it solely based on merit. Again, your naivete is apparent here. It's not uncommon at all for people to obtain residencies in both ACGME and AOA programs based on previous work or research experience with a particular attending who has influence on the residency selection committee, or sometimes just outright nepotism.

To reiterate the take-home message here (and answer the original posting in this thread) is that while DOs can get good residencies, the idea that we can get any great residency position simply by working hard enough is fiction. Even for getting competitive specialties in programs that are open to DOs, you will have to work much harder than an American MD applicant.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Guy who matched ACGME PRS in 2009 = baller.

 

[Skippygonenuts]

As instatewaiter correctly points out, the one DO who matched for integrated plastics does not indicate that DOs can get ANY ACGME residency they want, which is really the main point of contention. You are harboring two very common pre-med misconceptions:

1. That all residency programs in a specialty are equal. In the world of surgery, there can be tremendous differences between the average university program compared to community programs. For all you know this person could have matched to the lowest ranked plastics program in the country. While still a great accomplishment that I'm really not trying to disparage, to claim that a DO can get into ANY program based on this is simply untrue. As an example closer to my line of work, one can find many DOs in Internal Medicine, but none will be found in the IM residencies of Columbia, Mount Sinai, or New York Hospital. And this isn't for lack of trying.

2. That the person who matched for plastics did it solely based on merit. Again, your naivete is apparent here. It's not uncommon at all for people to obtain residencies in both ACGME and AOA programs based on previous work or research experience with a particular attending who has influence on the residency selection committee, or sometimes just outright nepotism.

To reiterate the take-home message here (and answer the original posting in this thread) is that while DOs can get good residencies, the idea that we can get any great residency position simply by working hard enough is fiction. Even for getting competitive specialties, you will have to work much harder than an American MD applicant.

I get what your saying...I agree with u when you put it like that..but I guess any DO student **should** expect to have to work harder than their MD counterpart since wer trying to get into THEIR residency..

Thanks for the insight

 

[kookaiDO]

No.

As hard as it to admit, there are still MD programs out there (in all specialties) that refuse to take DO's no matter what their qualifications. It all comes from ignorance and ironically, it is not always the competitive programs that refuse DO's... a lot of them are average programs that just don't know better.

Having said that, there is more than one program in every specialty. Some of these programs will be more open-minded with DO's. So, hard work can get you a spot in the specialty you want (even though it might not be the specific program that you want).

In addition, it might be easier to be top of the class in a DO school and get into a DO optho residency than it would be to be middle of the class at an MD school and get an MD optho residency..... Big fish in a small pond...

 

[st2205]

In addition, it might be easier to be top of the class in a DO school and get into a DO optho residency than it would be to be middle of the class at an MD school and get an MD optho residency..... Big fish in a small pond...

Neither mentioned nor understood well enough on SDN, subsequently leading to bad, bad advice. Someone in the running for DO admissions but a long-shot for MD admissions is more likely to be in the running for DO dermatology/opthalmology/etc. as a DO than being anything more than a long-shot for allopathic dermatology/opthalmology/etc. as an MD.

Yeah, an allopathic dermatology residency may have a strong MD-bias, but that says very little for any of the other variables. If you're just an average MD student with average board scores, then opting for an MD school "because you need to go there if you want a real shot at dermatology" didn't do you a whole lot of good, especially considering the doors closed to osteopathic dermatology residencies.

These residencies usually match some of the most competitive applicants. If you're not one of those applicants coming into medical school, it's not likely you'll be one after medical school. And since DO residencies are "less competitive" then I think the answer deserves a lot more consideration than "dude, u need 2 go MD 2 match, brah!!!11"

 

[BobBarker]

In addition, it might be easier to be top of the class in a DO school and get into a DO optho residency than it would be to be middle of the class at an MD school and get an MD optho residency..... Big fish in a small pond...

Don't really agree with this or what it is implying.. at all.

 

[Skippygonenuts]

How do med students find out their class rank anyway? Does the school tell each person their specific number? Do they just post class averages in a certain subject or exam? Just curious..

 

[InTheMaking]

Don't really agree with this or what it is implying.. at all.

Why not?

 

[DrBowtie]

How do med students find out their class rank anyway? Does the school tell each person their specific number? Do they just post class averages in a certain subject or exam? Just curious..

We get the # at the end of each year.

 

[Skippygonenuts]

We get the # at the end of each year.

Thanks

 

[TeamZissou]

How do med students find out their class rank anyway? Does the school tell each person their specific number? Do they just post class averages in a certain subject or exam? Just curious..

Class rank isn't that big of a deal for the first two years. It only really matters if you're in the top 25% or the bottom 25%. To help put it in perspective there are two kids in my class who's gpa is something like 0.02 different but their class rank is 20 people apart.

 

[Skippygonenuts]

Class rank isn't that big of a deal for the first two years. It only really matters if you're in the top 25% or the bottom 25%. To help put it in perspective there are two kids in my class who's gpa is something like 0.02 different but their class rank is 20 people apart.

Damn!! Is GPA the only thing that factors into class rank?

 

[TeamZissou]

Damn!! Is GPA the only thing that factors into class rank?

Your rotation grades during 3rd and 4th year also count but it depends on your school on how much it will change your rank. At our school people get mostly the same grades on rotations so it doesn't change our rank as much. Hence why rank isn't weighted as heavily into matching unless you're in the top 15% or so which looks good.

 

[Skippygonenuts]

I know I've hijacked this thread (sorry) but just one more question.

I've been hearing alot about AOA (alpha omega alpha) helping with matching. But I haven't really been able to gather info on how students are chosen into AOA? Is it by class rank or by who u know kinda things? Is it one of those MD things that's harder for DOs? The AOA website didn't dealt provide much info.

 

[TeamZissou]

I know I've hijacked this thread (sorry) but just one more question.

I've been hearing alot about AOA (alpha omega alpha) helping with matching. But I haven't really been able to gather info on how students are chosen into AOA? Is it by class rank or by who u know kinda things? Is it one of those MD things that's harder for DOs? The AOA website didn't dealt provide much info.

AOA (alpha omega alpha) is an MD term. DO's have their own version called Sigma ____ ____ (escapes me right now). It is mostly determined by gpa (class rank) but also by things such as service and club involvement. It's basically the "honors society" and at our school you had to have above a certain gpa to apply for the club.

As far as if it helps in matching.... I think it's kind of self selection. The students who are selected into that group are already stellar students who will likely do well on boards which also helps you match.

 

[H2DO]

Sigma Sigma Phi, you need to maintain a 3.0 GPA throughout medical school and at the time of graduation to be inducted. It is a honors and service society and the DO equivalent to AOA

 

[Skippygonenuts]

Sigma Sigma Phi, you need to maintain a 3.0 GPA throughout medical school and at the time of graduation to be inducted. It is a honors and service society and the DO equivalent to AOA

Wow. Thanks. Do acgme residencies consider it equal with aoa or is that also biased in some places?

 

[H2DO]

Wow. Thanks. Do acgme residencies consider it equal with aoa or is that also biased in some places?

It is not as well known yet, but it is just as comlex is equivalent to USMLE or supposed to be anyways. You have to list whether you are an SSP or AOA member in ERAS

 

[glamqueen]

Sigma Sigma Phi, you need to maintain a 3.0 GPA throughout medical school and at the time of graduation to be inducted. It is a honors and service society and the DO equivalent to AOA

How is that equal? To be AOA at my MD school, you have to be in the top ten percent of the class, which excludes many A students in my class. Basically, it is the A+ students who are going to become AOA. That seems pretty different than just meeting a 3.0 GPA upon graduation and having a service component.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

You can get whatever residency you want provided you're willing to put in the effort to earn your spot there.

lol

 

[MDROCKSTAR]

Haha--at first I was really confused when reading the posts because of use of 'AOA'--I was thinking American Osteopathic Association instead of Alpha Omega Alpha.

 

[DrRoast]

How is that equal? To be AOA at my MD school, you have to be in the top ten percent of the class, which excludes many A students in my class. Basically, it is the A+ students who are going to become AOA. That seems pretty different than just meeting a 3.0 GPA upon graduation and having a service component.

At our school the cutoff is 3.3 or 3.4, its different for each school. Also, this is just the minimum GPA to apply, this doesn't mean your getting in. They are only allowed to let in up to 20% of a class, and for our class they only let in 10%.

 

[idler12]

How is that equal? To be AOA at my MD school, you have to be in the top ten percent of the class, which excludes many A students in my class. Basically, it is the A+ students who are going to become AOA. That seems pretty different than just meeting a 3.0 GPA upon graduation and having a service component.

At our school you are chosen to Sigma Sigma Phi half-way through 1st year. The people who decide if you make are second year students. No real grade requirements to get in... I think over 75% of our class qualified to get chosen.

 

[J-Rad]

Isn't Sigma Sigma Phi the "lower" of the honor societies? I thought Sigma Psi Alpha was more the equivalent of AOA (later selection and higher slection standards).

 

[H2DO]

Isn't Sigma Sigma Phi the "lower" of the honor societies? I thought Sigma Psi Alpha was more the equivalent of AOA (later selection and higher slection standards).

the other one is Psi Sigma Alpha, but yes for SSP-the minimum requirement for application is a 3.0 GPA and like mentioned above only 20% of students are allowed in with the cut off. I have a 3.8 GPA and had over 50 hrs of service, there were many people rejected. We don't get inducted into the official society until graduation, right now we are just candidates.

Also, once again, I said it's as equivalent to AOA membership as comlex is to usmle, I am pretty sure no one here thinks that the above 2 exams are exactly the same.

 

[nlax30]

Not even sure those are available here. With the exception of AOA in the allopathic world, this is actually the first I've heard of these societies.

 

[FutureCTDoc]

When it comes to matching into allo from osteo it depends on a number of factors. The first one is your numbers. If you want allo ophtho and have less than a 220, you have no chance. This is true on both sides of the aisle. To be a DO matching into any competitive residency the chips are stacked against you. Some programs won't take you irrespective of USMLE or curing HIV. If you're not competitive by class rank or USMLE, you won't get it. If you're LORs are poor you won't either. Do DOs match into allo ophtho and derm, yes. These people represent the elite and only a few DOs can match their scores and level of effort. Also the average DO has a lower MCAT and there is some linkage between verbal and USMLE score. I've never heard of a Bascom trained DO. There may be, I don't know though. If you can use nepotism all bets are off. I feel at some programs i.e. ones where my father taught or has good friends, that I have a better chance, the same is likely true for you. However even for allo students, most have no shot at ophtho or derm or PRS.

 

[tndoc12]

Do DO's get MD optho spots? Rarely. Are there DO optho residencies? You bet.

The truth is for the most competitive fields (optho being one of them), you need to be at the upper escelon of your class, boards, get publications, etc. To be a DO and go after MD spots in the most competitive fields is even more difficult. Yes, it has been done. And yes, someone will have a story about "I know this guy that did it." In fact I'm actually rotating at a program right now where last year's chief resident landed a fellowship at Harvard. But truth be told if you want an MD optho spot you're better of going MD. Now, if you just want optho, you can pursue the DO optho residencies.

If you're interested in seeing the DO residencies, check out http://opportunities.osteopathic.org

VCOM had 5 grads match in optho spots this year!

 

[dozitgetchahi]

You can get whatever residency you want provided you're willing to put in the effort to earn your spot there. MD's don't have exclusive access to any residencies. For some of the more competitive ones, you may have to take the USMLE along with the COMLEX and apply to MD and DO residencies.

As far as I can tell, the answer is "it depends".

On one hand, there are certainly top-notch MD residencies that have never admitted a DO in their history and are highly unlikely to anytime soon. You would face an uphill battle of Sisyphean proportions to get into most of these residencies as a DO. However, it also seems as though that door is starting to crack open a little (tiny) bit; every year, there seems to be a handful of DOs who successfully "infiltrate" that caliber of MD residency, indicating that it can indeed be done (sometimes, at least).

However, you need to keep these points in mind:

- Cracking into this level of residency is brutally hard for even MD applicants, and going to an MD school hardly constitutes a "free pass" into them.

- There are osteopathic residencies available in some highly selective specialties, although they may not be of the same quality as many residencies on the MD side.

- Depending on the specialty, it may be quite possible for a DO to match a mid-tier residency on the MD side (which is quite respectable in the grand scheme of things).

 

[Colbert]

VCOM had 5 grads match in optho spots this year!

Really? Not according to the match list that was posted.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=9418992&postcount=58

 

[golgiapparatus88]

Why is matching into an MD residency better than matching into a DO residency? For example (probably a bad one), if I want to be a cardiologist and match into a DO residency that allows me to pursue cardiology, how would I be at a disadvantage compared to an DO that got a MD residency match?

 

[Hernandez]

Why is matching into an MD residency better than matching into a DO residency? For example (probably a bad one), if I want to be a cardiologist and match into a DO residency that allows me to pursue cardiology, how would I be at a disadvantage compared to an DO that got a MD residency match?

Because there are few do cards spots and I'd go further and say even fewer do cards spots in hospitals that are big enough to warrant a fellowship in the first place. And these spots tend to go to in-house residents. While I know of others who've managed to get acgme fellowships after do IM residencies, I'm not aware of any who've done so in cards, GI, or allergy. I know of 1 heme/onc, several pulm-cc, an ID, rheum and endo but these tend to be much less competitive. I know of 1 DO applying gi from a do residency currently that I think will get a spot, but they have a great application and has made friends in all the right places.