DO Residency Program - fellowship bias?

[Eagles6389]

Hi all,

As I’m beginning to finalize my rank list, I was wondering if anyone can weigh in on bias against DO anesthesiology programs when pursuing fellowships. The one DO program on my rank list is ACGME accredited, but I was wondering if I will face a bias if pursuing some of the more competitive anesthesiology fellowships if I’m applying from a DO program.

Similarly, I’m not sure how to compare two of the new ACGME residency programs (that are advanced programs with only a CA-1 class so far - though will have a full class by the time I start my CA-1 year there) to DO programs. I.e. would I have a better chance at a competitive fellowship from a new ACGME program vs an established DO program?

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[psychbender]

There is presently still some bias against DOs at some programs. That bias exists whether one trains at an ACGME program, or an AOA one. Also, aren't all of the formally AOA programs coming under the umbrella of the ACGME, such that there are not going to be any DO programs left?

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[Eagles6389]

There is presently still some bias against DOs at some programs. That bias exists whether one trains at an ACGME program, or an AOA one. Also, aren't all of the formally AOA programs coming under the umbrella of the ACGME, such that there are not going to be any DO programs left?

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Yes, all DO programs have to become ACGME accredited in order to remain open. I understand that there is still some bias against DOs, but was wondering if there is additional bias if also training at a DO (now ACGME accredited) program. And yeah technically there will be no more “DO programs” but these programs will likely continue to take only DOs or a heavy majority of DOs.

 

[GlowInTheDark]

I can’t fathom why you’d choose one of those programs over an original ACGME.

Aside from 1 hospital I can’t imagine how they get enough exposure without shipping you out across the country.

 

[ToKingdomCome]

Which are the brand new acgme programs and which are the former DO programs?

 

[CubsDynasty]

I would say neither will help get you into a competitive fellowship.

But to actually be helpful, the reputation of both will not help you. The thing that may help you is if the longer standing program (D.O program) had graduates who went into competitive fellowships at certain institutions and performed well enough to build up a good reputation of their graduates. This may only be specific to a few specific fellowships though so you may end up being quite limited.

If your question is whether to rank a bad but long standing ACGME accredited residency over DO/new programs than my answer would be definitely a yes. Those others should be at the bottom of the list if you are serious about something competitive. If your question is when you are ranking the bottom of your rank list what should be higher, then the answer will end be program specific. If DO Program A has sent graduates to Fellowship B then that is a good sign. This won't be the case for a newly founded program.

 

[AdmiralChz]

While I am not a DO, I trained with several who were and are great physicians. They were unanimous in saying that it’s either MD ACGME training or pick a different specialty. DO training programs in anesthesia have not been looked upon favorably nationally, which (based on pure speculation) may be due to dubious training, inadequate subspecialty exposure or the like. I have heard stories of folks having difficulty getting credentialled with AOA training. I do not know if the same is true for other specialties (anecdotally, it appears not). That being said, there are only a handful of AOA programs and mostly in the Midwest/plains/Tornado alley area.

The fact is, ACGME has much more rigorous requirements for accreditation - so if a DO program is moving in that direction, that’s a good thing. The bias may very well still be there. Applicants are best served to shoot for established (>5 year) ACGME programs - the ACGME website allows for searches by state so you can look them up. You may be disadvantaged in fellowship apps (especially for competitive ones) for going with new or formerly DO-only programs. These programs will probably have some difficulty recruiting and will have to interview less desirable candidates.

There also may be another issue - ACGME-accredited fellowships likely require completion of an ACGME residency.

Sorry to be blunt, but it sorta needed to be said.

 

[Eagles6389]

Thank you for the replies - yeah I understand that established ACGME program > new or formerly DO programs, I was curious on new ACGME program vs established DO program w/ accreditation. And that this may be program specific if a DO program has a history of placing their residents at X fellowship at X program.

I have most of my rank list figured out, with the top half of my list w/ academic ACGME programs. But towards the end of my rank list, it’s tough trying to compare two of the new ACGME programs to the one DO program (that has accredition) in terms of pedigree and training. From the replies so far, it seems that a new ACGME program has more upside and a better chance at fellowship opportunities overall than a DO program w/ accreditation.

 

[CubsDynasty]

"From the replies so far, it seems that a new ACGME program has more upside and a better chance at fellowship opportunities overall than a DO program w/ accreditation."

I would argue the opposite, but again this is all program and fellowship specific. PM me if you have specific programs in mind because I have talked to a lot of residents who entertained the idea of going DO but did not.

I think I would rather go: DO residency that is now accredited and has graduated 50 residents and placed many of them into fellowships >> new ACGME that has never graduated anyone but has a some good names that might open doors with a phone call >>>>>> DO residency that is now accredited that only takes one resident every year and every grad has gone to a community hospital

 

[gasman2014]

As a DO I agree with what has been mentioned. I did/am doing ACGME res/fellowship, so my view is obviously biased. When I was interviewing for residencies I noticed a big variety in the training between different DO programs. Some were very rigorous, some were not. I think it would sort of depend on which program you are talking about. Where I'm doing fellowship, I know they'll look at applicants from DO fellowships, but it's a small pool and there's a pretty regular link between the program and here. With that said, none of the fellowship applicants invited to interview (at this point) have been from any DO residency programs, but nor have they been from new ACGME programs.

I think if your choices were DO residency with solid placements (both job and fellowship) with good track record vs unknown brand-new ACGME, I may lean towards established good track record. I'm not a PD/FD though.

I think Admiral and Cubs gave some solid advice here.

 

[Dakota02]

Hard to say, but I would suspect an MD residency will always carry more weight.

 

[Eagles6389]

Thanks for the replies so far - the DO program I interviewed at has had most of their grads go into private practice. A couple grads have done fellowships from what they told me, but no connection to a specific fellowship program. That being said, I thought the training at the program is solid: they meet their required case numbers early, already have ACGME accreditation, good case variety, etc.

In terms of new ACGME vs established DO, I think I have to evaluate each program as a whole, as a couple of the posts above mentioned how some of the DO programs are poor (I.e. Larkin which is now closing) while some are solid. Same with the newer programs - one I interviewed at was largely unimpressive with red flags, while another new program has a solid foundation to grow into a good established program.

 

[Hamhock]

In what way would an osteopathic residency be superior than the same program that is allopathic? What is gained by being an osteopathic residency? Why would program founders/PD start an osteopathic residency (as opposed to an allopathic residency that accepts only the best applicants they can get; regardless if the applicant went to a DO or MD school)?

I just don't get it.

And perhaps answers to these questions will help the OP.

HH