DO School Inclusion into the Alpha Omega Alpha Honors Society - AOA

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Tozanzibarbymotorcar

Tozanzibarbymotorcar

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Has anyone ever looked into why DO schools are not allowed to establish AOA - Alpha Omega Alpha- chapters? If this is at all possible, it would be an alternative to SSP (Sigma Sigma Phi) which is the weaker honor society due to selection factors, including, choosing members in the 1st/2nd yr vs 3rd/4th (AOA) and much lower GPA guidelines. Why not petition AOA to allow DO schools to establish chapters?
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Tozanzibarbymotorcar said:
Has anyone ever looked into why DO schools are not allowed to establish AOA chapters? If this is at all possible, it would be an alternative to SSP which is the weaker honor society due to selection factors, including, choosing members in the 1st/2nd yr vs 3rd/4th (AOA) and much lower GPA guidelines. Why not petition AOA to allow DO schools to establish chapters?
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LOL not happening.
 
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Tozanzibarbymotorcar said:
Has anyone ever looked into why DO schools are not allowed to establish AOA chapters? If this is at all possible, it would be an alternative to SSP which is the weaker honor society due to selection factors, including, choosing members in the 1st/2nd yr vs 3rd/4th (AOA) and much lower GPA guidelines. Why not petition AOA to allow DO schools to establish chapters?
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I suggest this question be addressed to the those running AOA.
 
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Tozanzibarbymotorcar said:
Has anyone ever looked into why DO schools are not allowed to establish AOA chapters? If this is at all possible, it would be an alternative to SSP which is the weaker honor society due to selection factors, including, choosing members in the 1st/2nd yr vs 3rd/4th (AOA) and much lower GPA guidelines. Why not petition AOA to allow DO schools to establish chapters?
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Actually this isn't a bad idea, I don't think they would go for it, but I like the way your thinking.
 
Tozanzibarbymotorcar said:
Has anyone ever looked into why DO schools are not allowed to establish AOA chapters? If this is at all possible, it would be an alternative to SSP which is the weaker honor society due to selection factors, including, choosing members in the 1st/2nd yr vs 3rd/4th (AOA) and much lower GPA guidelines. Why not petition AOA to allow DO schools to establish chapters?
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If DO schools were allowed to establish AOA chapters, why would anyone still join SSP? I read that PDs currently don’t put much stock into SSP anyways so having an AOA chapter would make SSP obsolete.
 
Article IX: NEW CHAPTERS
Section 1
A Chapter may be chartered at a College or School of Medicine that meets the Society's requirements and has received LCME accreditation. An application signed by the Dean and by at least six members of the Faculty of Medicine who are members of Alpha Omega Alpha Honor Medical Society shall be sent to the President along with full information about the school's financial status, admission criteria, curriculum, faculty, and scholarship aid.

Alpha Omega Alpha - Constitution
 
I asked this exact same question to the deans at my school last year at an open forum they host, and the TLDR answer was that they aren't interested in even trying to get a chapter opened.
 
scrublyfe21 said:
I asked this exact same question to the deans at my school last year at an open forum they host, and the TLDR answer was that they aren't interested in even trying to get a chapter opened.
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Well, you can't even if you tried... because DO schools are not eligible.
 
sab3156 said:
Well, you can't even if you tried... because DO schools are not eligible.
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That's true, although I'm sure if they really pursued it they probably could make it happen (meaning the AOA as a whole not individual schools). But they won't, because they are insistent of making things as hard as possible on their grads.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
That's true, although I'm sure if they really pursued it they probably could make it happen (meaning the AOA as a whole not individual schools). But they won't, because they are insistent of making things as hard as possible on their grads.
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:thinking:grey, you're making it too easy.

IF you say "AOA" to a DO school Dean, just what do you think s/he is going to think it means??????
 
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Lawper said:
So SSP would just be a student organization for true believers and not really an honor society.
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Pretty much what it is anyway. It’s such BS. My school lowered the gpa cutoff for it just so more people would apply lol. I think like 2/3 the class is academically cut out for this “honor” now.
 
Lawper said:
And I don't understand why 🙁
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Honestly I genuinely think it's because they just don't understand what they are doing. The vast majority (if not all) of the people in charge of the AOA have zero clue about anything ACGME or applying to residency. They also simply don't care about individual student success. They don't care if they place a graduate at Upenn ENT or at a BFE FM program. To them a match is a match. Unlike my friends at MD schools who are constantly being encouraged to pursue the specialties they want and encouraged to get good board scores etc, DO schools largely only care if you pass so that you can simply get a residency. It's like they don't realize that if students are matching at more competitive places then they will make the school look better.
 
Ho0v-man said:
Pretty much what it is anyway. It’s such BS. My school lowered the gpa cutoff for it just so more people would apply lol. I think like 2/3 the class is academically cut out for this “honor” now.
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Interesting. I've never heard word one about SSP from my students, so I suspect that they see right through it.

I'm going to go out on a limb and make some blue sky speculation here. Perhaps those of you who are interested in seeing AOA expand to the DO schools could reach out to those who actually run it?

Remember, the worst that they will do is simply say no.
 
Goro said:
Interesting. I've never heard word one about SSP from my students, so I suspect that they see right through it.

I'm going to go out on a limb and make some blue sky speculation here. Perhaps those of you who are interested in seeing AOA expand to the DO schools could reach out to those who actually run it?

Remember, the worst that they will do is simply say no.
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To have any semblance of a voice in the AOA you have to somehow show that you conform to these ideas in the first place. It’s so stupid. To make any real meaningful change, you have to get deep enough in the system. Only way to do that is to show you don’t want to change anything. It’s maddening. It’s so sad that a degree founded on challenging the status quo will ultimately be destroyed by its own inability to question tradition.
 
Ho0v-man said:
It’s so sad that a degree founded on challenging the status quo will ultimately be destroyed by its own inability to question tradition.
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Yep, I agree. I think the merger is the bell that will slowly lead to the end of the AOA. It might take a decade or maybe even two, but it's coming.
 
Ho0v-man said:
To have any semblance of a voice in the AOA you have to somehow show that you conform to these ideas in the first place. It’s so stupid. To make any real meaningful change, you have to get deep enough in the system. Only way to do that is to show you don’t want to change anything. It’s maddening. It’s so sad that a degree founded on challenging the status quo will ultimately be destroyed by its own inability to question tradition.
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Jeeze, here's one of the problems when working with two identical abbreviations. I was talking about the alpha-omega-alpha honor society, not the American...well, you know.

So, could you ask those that run the alpha-omega-alpha honor society if the bylaws could be changed to "...LCME and COCA accredited schools..."????

I agree with grey's post above, my own suspicion is that it will take another 30 years or so...when y'all are in your 50s.
 
Goro said:
Jeeze, here's one of the problems when working with two identical abbreviations. I was talking about the alpha-omega-alpha honor society, not the American...well, you know.

So, could you ask those that run the alpha-omega-alpha honor society if the bylaws could be changed to "...LCME and COCA accredited schools..."????

I agree with grey's post above, my own suspicion is that it will take another 30 years or so...when y'all are in your 50s.
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I dont think there is any chance they would change their bylaws Goro. The MD world takes AOA very seriously. Criteria vary from school to school, often the top 10%make it , but I think anyone in the top quartile of their class is eligible. Trust me, they would never consider the top quartile in our schools in the same league as the top quartile in theirs. As far as the merger, I have stated before that the merger was to make sure grads of LCME schools would be assured a residency and the DO grads would have to fill the primary care slots left over. The vast majority of grads not matching in the future being DOs.
 
Angus Avagadro said:
I dont think there is any chance they would change their bylaws Goro. The MD world takes AOA very seriously. Criteria vary from school to school, often the top 10%make it , but I think anyone in the top quartile of their class is eligible. Trust me, they would never consider the top quartile in our schools in the same league as the top quartile in theirs. As far as the merger, I have stated before that the merger was to make sure grads of LCME schools would be assured a residency and the DO grads would have to fill the primary care slots left over. The vast majority of grads not matching in the future being DOs.
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What? That directly contradicts a lot of posts and threads from knowledgeable members on here.

What are you basing your statements on?
 
Lawper said:
If DO schools were allowed to establish AOA chapters, why would anyone still join SSP? I read that PDs currently don’t put much stock into SSP anyways so having an AOA chapter would make SSP obsolete.
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SSP would continue as it has always been...a service honors society for DOs. This is very different from an academic honors society.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
That's true, although I'm sure if they really pursued it they probably could make it happen (meaning the AOA as a whole not individual schools). But they won't, because they are insistent of making things as hard as possible on their grads.
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I personally know some faculty/students who are part of Alpha Omega Alpha (spelling it out so the pre-meds don't get confused) and are active in the organization - and there's no way in hell they would ever allow DO schools to touch that club. Alpha Omega Alpha (AOA) is highly committed to medical science scholarship and achievements in research. Alpha Omega Alpha (AOA) has a huge number of Nobel prize winners in their list of past and current members. Osteopathy has not produced a single Nobel prize winner, ever (?). Osteopathy is diametrically opposed to science and really is seen as a religious cult by the MD world. It would be hard for them to not laugh if DO schools approached them and asked to join. There's a reason why they say "LCME only" on their website - it's not for the sake of bureaucracy... there's no way they're risking their reputation in order to satisfy a few DO schools.
 
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Lawper said:
What? That directly contradicts a lot of posts and threads from knowledgeable members on here.

What are you basing your statements on?
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To better answer, I'll address each point, hopefully to your satisfaction. When I use AOA in this post, it refers to Alpha Omicron Alpha Honors Medical Society

First. http://alphaomegaalpha.org/how.html; How members are chosen from AOA website
Also, close family relative just missed being AOA, top quartile, not top10%.

My personal belief is that few MDs would prefer not to have AOA listed on their application
The resident selection committee I used to sit on considered AOA membership highly

As for my comments on the merger, this was a personal communication with one of our Deans on why DOs were removed from the ACGME, forcing the merger. Do you really believe the ACGME exists to train DOs? If so, you are misguided. Their obligation is to graduates of LCME, (AMA) accredited schools, not COCA,(DO) accredited schools. There are existing DO programs that wont survive the merger. All of this translates to MORE MDs matching and fewer DOs matching. Where will the empty slots be? Primary care. ACGME is happy to use us to fill empty slots and take our best and brightest. I ALWAYS encourage any OMS to reach for the stars, but you have to be aware of what it takes to be a competitive applicant for your chosen specialty. Some programs wont interview DOs, very true but nothing new here. That has been going on for a hundred years. Many more programs now take DOs than 50 yrs ago. Apply to one of those programs. Its still not all gloom and doom. DO seniors have an 80% or greater chance of matching in most 10 out of 18 listed residencies on NMRP website. MDs have an 80% or greater match rate in 17 of 18 residencies.
So, it is what it is. The game is tougher now, set realistic goals, work hard to be the best applicant. Make sure all the boxes are checked. Don't forget politics. Never underestimate the power of a recommendation from a respected faculty member or alumnus of the program.

I completely agree with @sab3156 ; ( only my criticism might not be as harsh), and @AnatomyGrey12
 
Angus Avagadro said:
I dont think there is any chance they would change their bylaws Goro. The MD world takes AOA very seriously. Criteria vary from school to school, often the top 10%make it , but I think anyone in the top quartile of their class is eligible. Trust me, they would never consider the top quartile in our schools in the same league as the top quartile in theirs. As far as the merger, I have stated before that the merger was to make sure grads of LCME schools would be assured a residency and the DO grads would have to fill the primary care slots left over. The vast majority of grads not matching in the future being DOs.
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I agree? Especially in 2026 and beyond this will be the truth. I am a bit shocked here.
Angus Avagadro said:
To better answer, I'll address each point, hopefully to your satisfaction. When I use AOA in this post, it refers to Alpha Omicron Alpha Honors Medical Society

First. http://alphaomegaalpha.org/how.html; How members are chosen from AOA website
Also, close family relative just missed being AOA, top quartile, not top10%.

My personal belief is that few MDs would prefer not to have AOA listed on their application
The resident selection committee I used to sit on considered AOA membership highly

As for my comments on the merger, this was a personal communication with one of our Deans on why DOs were removed from the ACGME, forcing the merger. Do you really believe the ACGME exists to train DOs? If so, you are misguided. Their obligation is to graduates of LCME, (AMA) accredited schools, not COCA,(DO) accredited schools. There are existing DO programs that wont survive the merger. All of this translates to MORE MDs matching and fewer DOs matching. Where will the empty slots be? Primary care. ACGME is happy to use us to fill empty slots and take our best and brightest. I ALWAYS encourage any OMS to reach for the stars, but you have to be aware of what it takes to be a competitive applicant for your chosen specialty. Some programs wont interview DOs, very true but nothing new here. That has been going on for a hundred years. Many more programs now take DOs than 50 yrs ago. Apply to one of those programs. Its still not all gloom and doom. DO seniors have an 80% or greater chance of matching in most 10 out of 18 listed residencies on NMRP website. MDs have an 80% or greater match rate in 17 of 18 residencies.
So, it is what it is. The game is tougher now, set realistic goals, work hard to be the best applicant. Make sure all the boxes are checked. Don't forget politics. Never underestimate the power of a recommendation from a respected faculty member or alumnus of the program.

I completely agree with @sab3156 ; ( only my criticism might not be as harsh), and @AnatomyGrey12
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???? What is going on today, I actually liked your post. I agree completely with this.
 
BorntobeDO? said:
Get a better dream than this. Aim higher than just matching, go for your ideal. If you do that, even if you fall short, the matching will take care of itself. People who get on the 'I just need to pass train' are the ones riding the caboose and falling off.
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You're totally right. I meant it more as, I wish obstacles to matching would stop appearing
 
sab3156 said:
I personally know some faculty/students who are part of Alpha Omega Alpha (spelling it out so the pre-meds don't get confused) and are active in the organization - and there's no way in hell they would ever allow DO schools to touch that club. Alpha Omega Alpha (AOA) is highly committed to medical science scholarship and achievements in research. Alpha Omega Alpha (AOA) has a huge number of Nobel prize winners in their list of past and current members. Osteopathy has not produced a single Nobel prize winner, ever (?). Osteopathy is diametrically opposed to science and really is seen as a religious cult by the MD world. It would be hard for them to not laugh if DO schools approached them and asked to join. There's a reason why they say "LCME only" on their website - it's not for the sake of bureaucracy... there's no way they're risking their reputation in order to satisfy a few DO schools.
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The days of the cult of Still are over, and the real objections PDs nowadays have to ranking/hiring DOs is the poor clinical training they get from the weaker schools.
 
Goro said:
Fascinating. But seems like a moot point for medical students, alas.
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I think that if they are open to having DOs at the upper levels, they should be open to having student members. Not a bad precedence.
 
Tozanzibarbymotorcar said:
I think that if they are open to having DOs at the upper levels, they should be open to having student members. Not a bad precedence.
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No they shouldn't. Why should they? DO schools teach pseudoscience, whereas AOA celebrates the scholarship and research achievements of its members and has a huge number of Nobel prize winners. There is no way in hell AOA is going to allow DO schools into its club. It's embarrassing for them to do so, whether you think it is or not, and reduces its prestige. They are a respectable organization and have formed the best medical student honors association that they can, and that effort definitely doesn't include anything related to AT Still.
 
sab3156 said:
No they shouldn't. Why should they? DO schools teach pseudoscience, whereas AOA celebrates the scholarship and research achievements of its members and has a huge number of Nobel prize winners. There is no way in hell AOA is going to allow DO schools into its club. It's embarrassing for them to do so, whether you think it is or not, and reduces its prestige. They are a respectable organization and have formed the best medical student honors association that they can, and that effort definitely doesn't include anything related to AT Still.
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Lol you have such a unique way of taking a legitimate point and adding so much pretentiousness and dramatization that it actively detracts from your credibility.
 
sab3156 said:
No they shouldn't. Why should they? DO schools teach pseudoscience, whereas AOA celebrates the scholarship and research achievements of its members and has a huge number of Nobel prize winners. There is no way in hell AOA is going to allow DO schools into its club. It's embarrassing for them to do so, whether you think it is or not, and reduces its prestige. They are a respectable organization and have formed the best medical student honors association that they can, and that effort definitely doesn't include anything related to AT Still.
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Well ok.. contrary to popular opinion on SDN there are actually DO students who engage in scholarly research, etc. You make it sound like the world is ending. Meanwhile students at my school match into competitive specialties..
 
Tozanzibarbymotorcar said:
Well ok.. contrary to popular opinion on SDN there are actually DO students who engage in scholarly research, etc. You make it sound like the world is ending. Meanwhile students at my school match into competitive specialties..
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Your post is simply a straw man. The simple fact remains that Alpha Omega Alpha will never risk their reputation or their prestige by opening their organization up to DO schools. If you really want things to change, you're not going to make any progress by lobbying their organization. You can't just live in some alternate reality where you think you can just speak up and people will listen to your grievances.
 
Off topic but how does it work with all these “honorary members”? Do they win a Nobel and AOA is “ we know that guy, see?”. Serious question.
 
Angus Avagadro said:
Interesting and good to know. I have never run into a DO who was admitted to Alpha Omicron Alpha. Anyone know someone who has?
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I believe you can be inducted as a resident after intern year, but it has been awhile since I read it. There is a way.

Edit: Just saw the link, this is indeed how it works.
 
Just a thought: if the MD-AOA is unlikely to change it’s mind about DOs, what if we instead made changes to SSP to make ACGME programs more likely to change their minds about it?
 
ortnakas said:
Just a thought: if the MD-AOA is unlikely to change it’s mind about DOs, what if we instead made changes to SSP to make ACGME programs more likely to change their minds about it?
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If you tell the majority of people in SSP that they don't deserve to be in the organization because they got in for "service" popularity or average grades, they would call you an ass.

It can't change because the typical DO student is even more deluded than the average MD student in my experience. They actively want SSP this way.
 
ortnakas said:
Just a thought: if the MD-AOA is unlikely to change it’s mind about DOs, what if we instead made changes to SSP to make ACGME programs more likely to change their minds about it?
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It’s a good thought, but SSP wouldn’t make as much money if there was less people in it. That’s what it always comes down to, sadly.
 
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