DO School Tier List?

[Ho0v-man]

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You are making generalized statements for THOUSANDS of physicians and students in the medical community. Just on this forum alone I have read of 5 others who do not agree with you, an that is just HERE. PCOM isn't as great as you think. I didn't say it was a bad school, but I can think of many schools that are just as good, if not better, than PCOM. I have no reason to argue with you that it is a good school, but also don't go out of your way to say that this is the ONLY DO school that physicians (fill in the blank). MSU, OK-State, and Ohio State are all three public university osteopathic medical schools that not only offer cheaper tuition and better rotations, but also have budgets that sometimes exceed that of PCOM's by some 2 fold. PCOM is by far one of the best DO schools, but it's definitely out of other DO schools' league.

If you search my posts, I've said numerous times that the state funded DO schools are the best if you live in a state that has one. My point is from my own anecdotal experience. But I have spoken with physicians from multiple hospitals that I've worked at and they all asked when I told them I was going DO if it was PCOM. I don't even live in that part of the country! Furthermore, most of them haven't even heard of the quasi local DO school and they send us students on occasion.

Most DOs know there's more than just one good school, but MDs are usually only familiar with the one. This has been my experience in speaking with dozens of physicians.

Again, you and I know that there are schools just as good or better, but most people don't. Furthermore, you only listed state schools to compare it to which aren't even an option for most people.


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[OrdinaryDO]

If you search my posts, I've said numerous times that the state funded DO schools are the best if you live in a state that has one. My point is from my own anecdotal experience. But I have spoken with physicians from multiple hospitals that I've worked at and they all asked when I told them I was going DO if it was PCOM. I don't even live in that part of the country! Furthermore, most of them haven't even heard of the quasi local DO school and they send us students on occasion.

Most DOs know there's more than just one good school, but MDs are usually only familiar with the one. This has been my experience in speaking with dozens of physicians.

Again, you and I know that there are schools just as good or better, but most people don't. Furthermore, you only listed state schools to compare it to which aren't even an option for most people.


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"but MDs are usually only familiar with THE ONE...." generalizing, again. This is not true..

 

[Ho0v-man]

"but MDs are usually only familiar with THE ONE...." generalizing, again. This is not true..

I said this has been MY experience. Aren't you going to OK? Of course people have heard of your school if that's the case. But in my state no one ever has, with the exception of a doc I know who attended there. And he asked me if I tried to get into PCOM...


Edit: where else would you rather go?

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[OrdinaryDO]

I said this has been MY experience. Aren't you going to OK? Of course people have heard of your school if that's the case. But in my state no one ever has, with the exception of a doc I know who attended there. And he asked me if I tried to get into PCOM...


Edit: where else would you rather go?

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Sorry, I misunderstood your post if that is what you meant when you mentioned PCOM being the only school MDs knew about. I didn't realize by the way you worded it that you were speaking solely on your experience. However, if I had my choice of D.O. medical schools, then OSU would be my first choice for many reasons, then I would probably go with Marian, MSU, Touro-CA, or PCOM in no specific order. They are all good -- don't mistake my posts for saying PCOM isn't worthy of being a great school, I was just disagreeing with what you were saying about how PCOM is the only school that even compares with an MD school. There are over 125 allopathic medical schools in the United States, I would be willing to bet that the top 4-5 DO schools out perform a few, if not many of the lower tier MD schools. I don't wanna go down that rabbit hole, though.

 

[GBCrzzyy]

However, if I had my choice of D.O. medical schools, then OSU would be my first choice for many reasons, then I would probably go with Marian, MSU, Touro-CA, or PCOM in no specific order.

What do you like about Marian? I submitted my app there this cycle but haven't heard a whole lot about it on this forum. Just curious about your personal opinion on the school.

I'm really interested in RVU and UNECOM too. Does anyone have any info on UNECOM and how they usually perform in the match when it comes to non-primary care? I've looked at their list but I'm just not familiar with specific residency programs and how good they are so I have a hard time forming opinions on match lists. I'm more interested in how well schools have been doing in ACGME matches. I'm aware of the merger too which may or may not change things for the match.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

that was a typo haha, I didn't mean that it WAS. Also, why do I lose credibility? Are you under the impression that I meant the Ohio MD school or something? All three of those schools are public university affiliated osteopathic medical schools. Enlighten me, haha.

I dunno, I was in a hurry and it sounded good so I said it

Ohio State is different than Ohio University though, which is what I was getting at. It also occurred to me about this time that we weren't on the same page in that we were sharing our own anecdotal experience and weren't making absolute statements. So you ended up getting into the OK MD program? Solid work.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Damn what happened while I was gone LOL.

Again people have to realize DO schools don't have an extremely strong rep amongst the MD crowd unless it is within a certain region. An MD doc will know how good a school DMU or KCU is if he is practicing in Missouri, but wouldn't not squat about UNECOM or Rowan. Yes, legacy and decades to a century of churning docs does help rep, but docs not knowing what going on outside their backyard will still exist. Happens even in the MD world with fellowships that have multiple residencies apply to them (ex. anesthesia pain programs that don't know squat about the quality program that applicants from PM&R, psych, and neuro come from).

 

[AlteredScale]

Damn what happened while I was gone LOL.

Again people have to realize DO schools don't have an extremely strong rep amongst the MD crowd unless it is within a certain region. An MD doc will know how good a school DMU or KCU is if he is practicing in Missouri, but wouldn't not squat about UNECOM or Rowan. Yes, legacy and decades to a century of churning docs does help rep, but docs not knowing what going on outside their backyard will still exist. Happens even in the MD world with fellowships that have multiple residencies apply to them (ex. anesthesia pain programs that don't know squat about the quality program that applicants from PM&R, psych, and neuro come from).

Agreed. There are a fair share of KCU grads have ended up doing derm, plastics, and general surgery at KU Medical Center but the events in which this is done outside of the proximity of KC (and I'm talking university acgme programs) is very rare. We did have one match ENT at Tulane University this year but it's the outlier and shouldn't be used as the basis for ones decision to come to a school or not.


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[Ho0v-man]

Sorry, I misunderstood your post if that is what you meant when you mentioned PCOM being the only school MDs knew about. I didn't realize by the way you worded it that you were speaking solely on your experience. However, if I had my choice of D.O. medical schools, then OSU would be my first choice for many reasons, then I would probably go with Marian, MSU, Touro-CA, or PCOM in no specific order. They are all good -- don't mistake my posts for saying PCOM isn't worthy of being a great school, I was just disagreeing with what you were saying about how PCOM is the only school that even compares with an MD school. There are over 125 allopathic medical schools in the United States, I would be willing to bet that the top 4-5 DO schools out perform a few, if not many of the lower tier MD schools. I don't wanna go down that rabbit hole, though.

Fair enough. We differ in the sense that schools like osu and msu aren't on my radar because I'm not from those states. Bringing this back (finally) to a tier discussion, while I think the state funded DO schools are the best, it doesn't matter if you're not from one of those few states. If you're competitive enough to get into a state funded DO from out of state, then you're probably competitive for a state funded MD school too.

If you don't have a state DO school, the old established schools are probably the best.

This whole argument has really gotten out of hand. I never even wanted to go to PCOM. But I live in an area with a military base and the docs here are from all over the country. So I do think this opinion is more universal than you believe and that you may just be insulated from it due to you're own proximity to osu.


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[OrdinaryDO]

Fair enough. We differ in the sense that schools like osu and msu aren't on my radar because I'm not from those states. Bringing this back (finally) to a tier discussion, while I think the state funded DO schools are the best, it doesn't matter if you're not from one of those few states. If you're competitive enough to get into a state funded DO from out of state, then you're probably competitive for a state funded MD school too.

If you don't have a state DO school, the old established schools are probably the best.

This whole argument has really gotten out of hand. I never even wanted to go to PCOM. But I live in an area with a military base and the docs here are from all over the country. So I do think this opinion is more universal than you believe and that you may just be insulated from it due to you're own proximity to osu.


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I do not share a biased view for OSU at all. Everything I say about a school is genuine and true to what I believe given what information I have about each school. Moreover, you might have a pretty "universal" opinion, but one could argue this forum board is probably one of the most unique and universal pieces of mass information one could ask for -- which I have been a part of over the years. I'm not trying to turn this into a p***ing contest, I was just trying to find the rationale behind your statements for PCOM, which clearly many people would disagree with.

 

[MADD!!!]

I honestly didn't know how amazing of a school OSUCOM was until I applied there. Wow, they have a really good program setup there.

Like someone else said on one of these forums, for the majority public DO schools are for the win. Cheaper tuition, better GME, and tend to be associated with teaching hospitals.

But with that said, PCOM definitely takes the cake as being one of the best, if not the best, private DO schools.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I do not share a biased view for OSU at all. Everything I say about a school is genuine and true to what I believe given what information I have about each school. Moreover, you might have a pretty "universal" opinion, but one could argue this forum board is probably one of the most unique and universal pieces of mass information one could ask for -- which I have been a part of over the years. I'm not trying to turn this into a p***ing contest, I was just trying to find the rationale behind your statements for PCOM, which clearly many people would disagree with.

I don't know how to break this down for you any further. This has been my experience. If premeds or MDs know anything about DO schools, on average they seem to be most familiar with PCOM or KCU. That's my point. This has been my experience in the real world. Obviously things are very different on SDN because SDN is not at all representative of the real world. But even in this thread, someone referred to it as "almost an MD school" and I've heard docs say that about it who've never even been to PA. You're the only one vehemently disagreeing with me.

I imagine that OSU is actually a better school due to state funding. Same with Rowan, TCOM, etc. I don't actually know because it's a moot point if your not from Oklahoma so I didn't waste my time. However, if you're not from that region, no one has a clue how good it is, but most are familiar with PCOM.

It's amazing that in the past you've raved about how great BCOM and VCOM-Auburn are but spend so much energy putting down a school that blows them out of the water.

My overall point is that few, if any, DO schools are as well recognized as PCOM to most of the world.


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[gergles]

Damn what happened while I was gone LOL.

Again people have to realize DO schools don't have an extremely strong rep amongst the MD crowd unless it is within a certain region. An MD doc will know how good a school DMU or KCU is if he is practicing in Missouri, but wouldn't not squat about UNECOM or Rowan. Yes, legacy and decades to a century of churning docs does help rep, but docs not knowing what going on outside their backyard will still exist. Happens even in the MD world with fellowships that have multiple residencies apply to them (ex. anesthesia pain programs that don't know squat about the quality program that applicants from PM&R, psych, and neuro come from).

So taking all other factors personally important to the individual into consideration (e.g. how much one is willing to fork out for tuition), one's top choice should be the DO school closest to their top (realistic) choices for GME because it will be the most well known because of its proximity?

 

[OrdinaryDO]

I don't know how to break this down for you any further. This has been my experience. If premeds or MDs know anything about DO schools, on average they seem to be most familiar with PCOM or KCU. That's my point. This has been my experience in the real world. Obviously things are very different on SDN because SDN is not at all representative of the real world. But even in this thread, someone referred to it as "almost an MD school" and I've heard docs say that about it who've never even been to PA. You're the only one vehemently disagreeing with me.

I imagine that OSU is actually a better school due to state funding. Same with Rowan, TCOM, etc. I don't actually know because it's a moot point if your not from Oklahoma so I didn't waste my time. However, if you're not from that region, no one has a clue how good it is, but most are familiar with PCOM.

It's amazing that in the past you've raved about how great BCOM and VCOM-Auburn are but spend so much energy putting down a school that blows them out of the water.

My overall point is that few, if any, DO schools are as well recognized as PCOM to most of the world.


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First things first, you don't have to "break it down for me any further," because I point blank addressed the fact that I misunderstood your earlier posts as generalized comments and I completely understand they are YOUR thoughts and opinion from YOUR experiences...I have no clue why you think I didn't get that, because I clearly do.

Secondly, "SDN is not at all representative of the real world"? Are we all a bunch of robots hanging around sending auto-prompts from server to server? Communication is great, because it can be accomplished multiple ways. One being here on SDN where REAL people talk about REAL information shared about other schools. My reason for bringing SDN into this mix is because SDN is so diverse and offers opinions and information from all corners of the world. I would venture to say that SDN is probably one of the most diverse medical networking sites on the internet.. Also, to be quite frank I am in no way, shape, or form "vehemently disagreeing with you..." If you feel this way, then you are misunderstanding my posts. You made a very direct statement a while ago that very specifically targeted PCOM as the only school worthy of being mentioned in the same breath as another MD school. My reply was simply that it was not in fact true. You have to actually read my posts before making unsubstantiated claims.

Sorry, I misunderstood your post if that is what you meant when you mentioned PCOM being the only school MDs knew about. I didn't realize by the way you worded it that you were speaking solely on your experience. However, if I had my choice of D.O. medical schools, then OSU would be my first choice for many reasons, then I would probably go with Marian, MSU, Touro-CA, or PCOM in no specific order. They are all good -- don't mistake my posts for saying PCOM isn't worthy of being a great school, I was just disagreeing with what you were saying about how PCOM is the only school that even compares with an MD school. There are over 125 allopathic medical schools in the United States, I would be willing to bet that the top 4-5 DO schools out perform a few, if not many of the lower tier MD schools. I don't wanna go down that rabbit hole, though.

Lastly, you say I have "raved" about BCOM and VCOM, but in reality I have only spent time talking about those schools for the sake of those who asked me questions specifically. I didn't go out of my way to rave about any university. Moreover, I never once put down PCOM, which I clearly stated MULTIPLE times.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Most people don't use SDN and thus have not gotten into all of the minutiae of the differences between DO schools. SDN is not representative at all of the general premed/medstudent population and that's just a fact.

I was going to fire back with more, but I'm just over this. Think what you want, do what you want, just stop. I've just stopped caring. I feel like I'm losing IQ points via diffusion from this conversation. All the best.


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[FlatIsJustice]

Most people don't use SDN and thus have not gotten into all of the minutiae of the differences between DO schools. SDN is not representative at all of the general premed/medstudent population and that's just a fact.

I was going to fire back with more, but I'm just over this. Think what you want, do what you want, just stop. I've just stopped caring. I feel like I'm losing IQ points via diffusion from this conversation. All the best.


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It's almost impossible for you to be losing IQ via diffusion from any conversation. Diffusion works to move from higher to lower concentrations.

 

[Dr Tony T. Chopper]

I'm not a mod, but we should try to keep this civil if we intend to get anywhere.

 

[gergles]

It's almost impossible for you to be losing IQ via diffusion from any conversation. Diffusion works to move from higher to lower concentrations.

So it still works its just all about the framing. Ho0v is a shining beacon that is the pinnacle of IQ and in a converation with those with lesser IQ his IQs diffuses to them.

I'm not a mod, but we should try to keep this civil if we intend to get anywhere.

Was OP trying to get somewhere?

 

[AlteredScale]

Friendly reminder to keep the discussion civil and professional please. Thanks.

 

[Dustbowl12]

Lol. DO MD crap is overblown. People pinpoint at problem that deserves 2-3% of our attention and make it into a discussion that takes 20% of our time. Noone cares. If you want to be a physician then go either one.

And this myth that new programs have issues is completely false, outside of maybe LUCOM all the new schools are creating and have created significant GME, have made strides to have research and better rotation sites.

In the end dont forget a good number of DOs schools emphasize rural and primary care and that brings about unique considerations

 

[DeezNutzonUrChin]

Lol. DO MD crap is overblown. People pinpoint at problem that deserves 2-3% of our attention and make it into a discussion that takes 20% of our time. Noone cares. If you want to be a physician then go either one.

And this myth that new programs have issues is completely false, outside of maybe LUCOM all the new schools are creating and have created significant GME, have made strides to have research and better rotation sites.

In the end dont forget a good number of DOs schools emphasize rural and primary care and that brings about unique considerations

I agree. The former director of the Mayo clinic surgery programs says he wants someone creative, common sense, and good motor skills, the academic background didnt matter much infact he hated IV league students. On the other hand I had some guy from Harvard barely making a living still emphasizing how bad DO's are.
The opinion will vary from person to person.

As a closing point, with all the hate LUCOM gets I hope they take me, I just want a medical school.

 

[AlteredScale]

Lol. DO MD crap is overblown. People pinpoint at problem that deserves 2-3% of our attention and make it into a discussion that takes 20% of our time. Noone cares. If you want to be a physician then go either one.

And this myth that new programs have issues is completely false, outside of maybe LUCOM all the new schools are creating and have created significant GME, have made strides to have research and better rotation sites.

In the end dont forget a good number of DOs schools emphasize rural and primary care and that brings about unique considerations

Choosing MD opens up a world of opportunities like a career in academic medicine/matching into a strong university residency (look at any DO match list in terms of Internal Medicine and you'll see 90-95% of that list going to community programs). It makes matching into any surgical program easier (almost all DO matches to surgery minus 1 or 2 are AOA/community). It makes a career as a prospective clinician scientist easier (DO schools in total take in less than 10% of NIH funding). It allows for strong mentorship with professors who are leaders in their respective clinical departments (many DO schools don't even have clinical departments with dedicated professors, yes I'm aware this is because there's no strong hospital affil). Is it impossible to do these things at a DO school? Of course not. Look here or here or here. What I'm getting at here (and I'm sure this is old news for 99.8% of you) is that there are usually more resources to get you to these types of goals when one is at an MD program.

I want to address the fact that DO schools are somewhat inclusive to this area of rural and primary care as I feel this is somewhat of a facade to state that MD schools "only" focus on the things I listed above (which are things that the majority of DO schools lack). UC Davis, UC Irvine, UCLA, UCSD all have a rural-PRIME track that is focused on serving and eventually working in underserved regions. Now this isn't to say DO programs don't do the same (because they do) but it is also a focus of many many MD programs as well and they are good at it (UW, UCSF, UNC-Chapel Hill, UMichigan, UCLA all rank at the top for Primary Care).

Now don't get me wrong, MD schools have their own areas to improve upon but I think us saying that "nothing's wrong, nothing needs to be improved, a doctors a doctors a doctor, we are good here" really makes it hard to continuously grow as a profession and open up a new area of resources (more research funding, more faculty) and opportunities (multiple MedEd tracks).

 

[Dustbowl12]

Choosing MD opens up a world of opportunities like a career in academic medicine/matching into a strong university residency (look at any DO match list in terms of Internal Medicine and you'll see 90-95% of that list going to community programs). It makes matching into any surgical program easier (almost all DO matches to surgery minus 1 or 2 are AOA/community). It makes a career as a prospective clinician scientist easier (DO schools in total take in less than 10% of NIH funding). It allows for strong mentorship with professors who are leaders in their respective clinical departments (many DO schools don't even have clinical departments with dedicated professors, yes I'm aware this is because there's no strong hospital affil). Is it impossible to do these things at a DO school? Of course not. Look here or here or here. What I'm getting at here (and I'm sure this is old news for 99.8% of you) is that there are usually more resources to get you to these types of goals when one is at an MD program.

I want to address the fact that DO schools are somewhat inclusive to this area of rural and primary care as I feel this is somewhat of a facade to state that MD schools "only" focus on the things I listed above (which are things that the majority of DO schools lack). UC Davis, UC Irvine, UCLA, UCSD all have a rural-PRIME track that is focused on serving and eventually working in underserved regions. Now this isn't to say DO programs don't do the same (because they do) but it is also a focus of many many MD programs as well and they are good at it (UW, UCSF, UNC-Chapel Hill, UMichigan, UCLA all rank at the top for Primary Care).

Now don't get me wrong, MD schools have their own areas to improve upon but I think us saying that "nothing's wrong, nothing needs to be improved, a doctors a doctors a doctor, we are good here" really makes it hard to continuously grow as a profession and open up a new area of resources (more research funding, more faculty) and opportunities (multiple MedEd tracks).

Very few med students want to be a physician scientist. In this very specific subtype of physician I agree the opportunities for DOs are less.

Some community hospitals are great and some people prefer it (example cedars sinai)


Overall you make really important and relevant points. I agree that DO programs need to increase research, and improve a bit more on consistent clinical education. But the problem is definitely overblown and taken out of proportion.

The image of DO programs is painted and portrayed disproportionately negatively on SDN and it is scary to premeds, inaccurate, and undermines the profession rather than help (despite pure intention)

I believe its best to reach out to COCA AOA at your local schools or directly to address these issues

 

[FistLength]

Very few med students want to be a physician scientist. In this very specific subtype of physician I agree the opportunities for DOs are less.

Some community hospitals are great and some people prefer it (example cedars sinai)


Overall you make really important and relevant points. I agree that DO programs need to increase research, and improve a bit more on consistent clinical education. But the problem is definitely overblown and taken out of proportion.

The image of DO programs is painted and portrayed disproportionately negatively on SDN and it is scary to premeds, inaccurate, and undermines the profession rather than help (despite pure intention)

I believe its best to reach out to COCA AOA at your local schools or directly to address these issues

They image AlteredScale presented is very accurate. Some people do not care about going to university centers, but there are a lot that want to specialize into cardiology, hem/onc, or go to a university for surgical training. It is more difficult for a DO to do that. Prospective students should be aware of this point and be fully informed of what they are getting themselves into. I love my DO school and extremely happy with my choice, but I always tell people to go MD if they can (non carribean) for the reasons listed in AlteredScale's post. Where is the inaccuracy that you mentioned?

 

[jo_da]

Having had extremely terrible experiences with some DO grads I stumbled on this thread. The bad residents are all from the Tier 4 schools. At this point I am not sure if I'm going to trust a DO anymore unless they are from Tier 1. I only knew PCOM previously and actually had pleasant encounters with students and residents from there.

DO bias is learned.

 

[Goro]

Having had extremely terrible experiences with some DO grads I stumbled on this thread. The bad residents are all from the Tier 4 schools. At this point I am not sure if I'm going to trust a DO anymore unless they are from Tier 1. I only knew PCOM previously and actually had pleasant encounters with students and residents from there.

DO bias is learned.

Never good idea to necro bump and 8-year-old thread