DO School to Offer MD,DO degree?

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MedStudentWanna

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It's official. KCUMB, a DO school, is looking into offering applicants a dual degree -- MD, DO. If this catches on and other schools offer the same, imagine what that will do to the "apply to DO schools?" threads.

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link please
 
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If this is true, tons of people are going to throw in a KCUMB application just for that fact...

We are not considering an MD option, as the Texas College of Osteopathic Medicine Board of Regents approved during the third week of November.

What is this a reference to?
 
so let me get this straight.

There's going to be;

1. Jon Doe, MD
2. Jon Doe, DO
3. Jon Doe, MD DO

?
 
either way it's a bit early for a thread about it... it's just a proposal right now.
 
That seems a little redundant. Like saying you double majored with a BS in chemistry and a BA in chemistry.
 
i doubt this will happen, DO MD is DOoMeD to fail
 
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The e-mail posted is a real e-mail from the president of the school.. My father is a graduate of KCUMB and received the e-mail as well..
 
Just wondering, what's the point of having an MD and a DO?
 
I really don't get the point of that. I thought there was a movement in the community to regard the MD and DO degrees as pretty much equivalents nowadays. I almost feel like offering a "dual degree" undermines the value of a DO degree...not to mention, looks redundant.
 
I think it's a genius business move for the school. I bet it raises a few eyebrows and compels at least a few allopathic-purest to throw an app "thattaway." Perhaps the move even allows the school to raise its tuition. I wonder if other DO schools are seriously considering it? The dual acronym (repetitive or not), sounds hardcore and seems like it'd finally give DO schools the edge to begin competing for the same students MD schools are fighting for. I guess programs like Harvard and Hopkins will never have to worry about it, but it'd be REALLY interesting if some lower-tier MD programs began to offer a DO in addition to the traditional MD.

At the same time, I suppose I'm assuming all applicants consider DO school ONLY AFTER they get rejected from all of the MD programs. I've never met one (and mean no disrespect), but I bet there are those out there who really only ever wanted to be a DO.

Hmph...you know, I've never thought about it, but it would seem like if you can pass the COMLEX and USMLE, you really should get the street cred. Did you know that if you want to compete for an MD residency as a DO student, you HAVE to pass the USMLE? Just heard that the other day from a 3rd year at a DO school in AZ. Can anyone confirm?

Anyway, thanks for the post.
 
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The main reason they are doing it is for "student's best interest"..

The e-mail states that 63% of KCUMB graduates enter MD residencies and it is becoming more and more difficult for DO students to obtain these.
If the school offers a MD,DO degree, the LDCM (might be the wrong acronym) will recognize KCUMB as a MD school.

If the school is recognized by that organization then it puts all KCUMB graduates at an equal playing field with all MD graduates across the nation when it comes to obtaining residencies.
 
The main reason they are doing it is for "student's best interest"..

The e-mail states that 63% of KCUMB graduates enter MD residencies and it is becoming more and more difficult for DO students to obtain these.
If the school offers a MD,DO degree, the LDCM (might be the wrong acronym) will recognize KCUMB as a MD school.

If the school is recognized by that organization then it puts all KCUMB graduates at an equal playing field with all MD graduates across the nation when it comes to obtaining residencies.

that'd be amazing if it was true..
what would be more amazing is if they'd remove the comlex and just use the usmle
it'd take away alot of work..
 
It is a DOMD degree. Pronounced Doom'ed.

I'm getting one, I just tell everyone I'm going to be Doom'ed
 
'Half vampire, half lycan -- they're stronger than both.'

underworld_2_10.jpg
 
They should fuse the two to make it MDO, Doctor of Medicine and Osteopathy. That would look more badass.

Think about it. If DOs changed their degree name to MDO and MDs stuck with MD, everyone would be happy because the letters "MD" are in all medical degrees.
 
I see lots of logistical problems with the dual degree. In order to be awarded the MD, you'd probably have to take and pass the USMLE Step I/II/CS. That would be on top of the COMLEX requirements. Then there's the question of which Step III you would take. Probably COMLEX.
 
Some dual degrees make sense; this is not one of them. Can I get "DO" appended to my degree as long as I pass an elective OMM course?:rolleyes:
As long as that course was four semesters long and you took the comlex, why not?
 
As long as that course was four semesters long and you took the comlex, why not?

*whoosh*

My point was that it makes no sense for it to be a dual degree when the great majority of courses are shared between both levels of study. To give a dual degree when only one extra class or two is required for a DO is absurd/redundant.
 
DOs should just graduate "MD with Special Qualifications in Osteopathy"
 
So assuming this is true, um, why? This may seem cynical but I'll bet there's a financial incentive, and that alone is motivating the decision to offer a dual degree. It just seems too pointless to be for any other reason, but I'm open to suggestions.
 
Ok, since DO is essentially the same thing as an MD, except for including OMM, this doesn't make any sense. The DO/MD degree would be the exact same thing as the DO degree. MD training plus OMM = DO = proposed MD/DO.

:smack:

Edit: Oh, okay. I guess this part is a pretty good reason to make the dual degree.

"But having that dual degree offers access by our students and graduates to programs currently or increasingly restricted to graduates of LCME accredited institutions."
 
The main reason they are doing it is for "student's best interest"...

So are they basically admitting that you are better off going MD than DO?
 
wow a one-time poster...Strong Source
I seriously doubt the poster would fake an email from the president of the school.
I am a recent KCUMB graduate and received the same email yesterday.

Its an interesting idea.

So are they basically admitting that you are better off going MD than DO?
No, I don't think so. DO's still have their own residencies in a number of very competitive specialties (e.g. radiology, ortho, ENT, neurosurgery), none of which are available to MD graduates. I just think its a nice thing having the school accredited by the LCME.
 
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So are they basically admitting that you are better off going MD than DO?

Not at all. The school just seems to be doing what they need to do to protect the best interests of its students. Im against the idea of a dual degree but i can understand where the administration is coming from. KCUMB is one of the strongest DO programs out there and its students have proven this continually. The AOA has put the older DO schools in a bad situation by allowing new schools to pop up everywhere without increasing residency programs. The older schools have depended on these residency spots for their students for decades. Even though KCUMB has done really well matching in competetive DO residency's in the past its reasonable to assume that more students will increase competition. At the very least it will make it more difficult to get audition rotations at certain programs. In the DO world audition rotations are pretty much everything. The only way school can solve this problem would be to make sure we are competetive for the allo match. Not being able to use VSAS is a big roadblock. There is still a hesitancy for some allo programs, especially those outside the midwest, to accept KCUMB grads(or DO's in general) on equal footing with MD applicants. The LCME accredidation solves those both those issues. Honestly, this is just the AOA reaping what it has sewn.
 
If you want to be a DO for the right reasons, you don't care about having "MD" next to your name. And many other DO schools seem to be doing very well in regards to matching their students into MD residencies. I know when I looked at some lists, more than twice as many students matched MD than DO. So what exactly is making it difficult for KCUMB students to match into MD residencies? Obviously there are less spots in MD residencies as the size of MD classes increase, but if other DO schools are doing fine, I would say KCUMB is just using this "MD/DO" to try and make up for possible weaknesses they may have. And this program would do just as much injustice to the MD profession as it does to the DO.

On the flip side, I don't think it is fair that DO students can match into both DO and MD programs, but MD students can only match MD. They should have the same opportunity (and obviously would need training in OMM), although I'm not sure how many would take advantage of the opportunity.
 
If you want to be a DO for the right reasons, you don't care about having "MD" next to your name. And many other DO schools seem to be doing very well in regards to matching their students into MD residencies. I know when I looked at some lists, more than twice as many students matched MD than DO. So what exactly is making it difficult for KCUMB students to match into MD residencies? Obviously there are less spots in MD residencies as the size of MD classes increase, but if other DO schools are doing fine, I would say KCUMB is just using this "MD/DO" to try and make up for possible weaknesses they may have. And this program would do just as much injustice to the MD profession as it does to the DO.

On the flip side, I don't think it is fair that DO students can match into both DO and MD programs, but MD students can only match MD. They should have the same opportunity (and obviously would need training in OMM), although I'm not sure how many would take advantage of the opportunity.
Sigh, what "possible weaknesses" are you referring to? Our graduates match as well as any other DO school in the country. Yes, even PCOM-PA. And like every other DO school, we match more people into allopathic residencies than osteopathic ones. Those select allopathic residencies that persist in holding grudges against non-LCME schools (i.e. DO's) do not reserve such prejudices against KCUMB.

Your attitude of "well they don't want DO's, but our school doesn't need to send our students there because we're better anyhow" is naive. Unfortunately, it is shared by too many other DO-students that have yet to go through the residency match. KCUMB's attitude is, these residencies would prefer to take students of LCME-accredited programs, hence they are electing to make themselves LCME-accredited to help our students. This is a direct response by Pletz addressing concerns of recent KCUMB alumni (which I guarantee is shared by graduates of other DO programs), and I applaud her for it.
 
DISCLAIMER:

As of now, KCUMB is considering making their medical school program a dual DO, MD program. This has not happened yet, and it all still needs to be taken to committees, etc, at KCUMB before the AOA, LCME, etc all get their say in what happens.
 
Terpskins, any idea how this would affect you as an alumni?? I mean, assuming the LCME signs off on this as the school is right now, do you think you would have the option to use the DO, MD behind your name??
 
I actually saw (online) an MD,DO physician. For the life of me, I'll never know why. But then again there are those who get MBBS,MD which is well two medical degrees....
 
I think it's a genius business move for the school. I bet it raises a few eyebrows and compels at least a few allopathic-purest to throw an app "thattaway." Perhaps the move even allows the school to raise its tuition. I wonder if other DO schools are seriously considering it? The dual acronym (repetitive or not), sounds hardcore and seems like it'd finally give DO schools the edge to begin competing for the same students MD schools are fighting for. I guess programs like Harvard and Hopkins will never have to worry about it, but it'd be REALLY interesting if some lower-tier MD programs began to offer a DO in addition to the traditional MD.

At the same time, I suppose I'm assuming all applicants consider DO school ONLY AFTER they get rejected from all of the MD programs. I've never met one (and mean no disrespect), but I bet there are those out there who really only ever wanted to be a DO.

You are correct. I have competitive stats for an MD program, but I applied to 2 allopathic schools and 5 osteopathic. I prefer osteopathic schools, because I want to learn OMM.

Hmph...you know, I've never thought about it, but it would seem like if you can pass the COMLEX and USMLE, you really should get the street cred. Did you know that if you want to compete for an MD residency as a DO student, you HAVE to pass the USMLE? Just heard that the other day from a 3rd year at a DO school in AZ. Can anyone confirm?
It varies by residency. Some allopathic residencies accept the COMLEX, but some require the USMLE. I believe this is due to some programs being dually accredited, but I'm not entirely certain of this.
 
You are correct. I have competitive stats for an MD program, but I applied to 2 allopathic schools and 5 osteopathic. I prefer osteopathic schools, because I want to learn OMM.

Which brings up a good question. Are there training programs for MD's to learn OMM? Anyone know of any? Just a random thought passing through my head.
 
If you want to be a DO for the right reasons, you don't care about having "MD" next to your name. And many other DO schools seem to be doing very well in regards to matching their students into MD residencies. I know when I looked at some lists, more than twice as many students matched MD than DO. So what exactly is making it difficult for KCUMB students to match into MD residencies? Obviously there are less spots in MD residencies as the size of MD classes increase, but if other DO schools are doing fine, I would say KCUMB is just using this "MD/DO" to try and make up for possible weaknesses they may have. And this program would do just as much injustice to the MD profession as it does to the DO.

On the flip side, I don't think it is fair that DO students can match into both DO and MD programs, but MD students can only match MD. They should have the same opportunity (and obviously would need training in OMM), although I'm not sure how many would take advantage of the opportunity.

This is a pretty naive way to look at things. Its not so much an issue of the MD besides your name as it is the LCME approval. Honestly, if i went to a school that was MD/DO i would drop the MD after i got into the residency i wanted. Its not about the name. It just seems to be the easiest way to solve the catch-22 the AOA has put DO grads in. KCUMB could build a gigantic hospital and start a bunch of residency programs and hope there is enough patients to fill the beds. However, that seems kind of difficult. Either way i doubt the idea will be popular among students and alumni. Kansas City and Missouri as a whole is a pretty DO heavy state. You will probably find more osteopathic purists here than you will anywhere else. The problem is people are going assume that this issue is about getting rid of the DO rather than opening up new opportunities for DO's. Im not saying I support this thing though, im still too much of an osteopathic purist.
 
I actually saw (online) an MD,DO physician. For the life of me, I'll never know why. But then again there are those who get MBBS,MD which is well two medical degrees....

MBBS, MD if obtained in Europe and such is different because the MD is a research degree like a PhD.

I've seen someone with an MD, DO online too. I was looking up a PI's research and he was listed on multiple websites as MD, DO. :confused:
 
Terpskins, any idea how this would affect you as an alumni?? I mean, assuming the LCME signs off on this as the school is right now, do you think you would have the option to use the DO, MD behind your name??
Meh, beats me. :oops:

The last time something remotely similar to this happened was when UC Irvine switched from an osteopathic to an allopathic program in response to California's medical board not providing DO's license to practice medicine. All prior graduates from Irvine were subsequently "permitted" to change their titles, though some didn't bother to.

What I'm most curious of is whether or not students will be required to take both USMLE and COMLEX. Heheh, not fun. :cool:

MBBS, MD if obtained in Europe and such is different because the MD is a research degree like a PhD.

I've seen someone with an MD, DO online too. I was looking up a PI's research and he was listed on multiple websites as MD, DO. :confused:
One of KCUMB's internal medicine faculty Dr. Pinzur is an MD/DO. She finished an MD in the Ukraine prior to moving to the states, then obtained her DO from NYCOM and completed an internal medicine residency.
 
Ok, since DO is essentially the same thing as an MD, except for including OMM, this doesn't make any sense. The DO/MD degree would be the exact same thing as the DO degree. MD training plus OMM = DO = proposed MD/DO.

:smack:

Edit: Oh, okay. I guess this part is a pretty good reason to make the dual degree.

"But having that dual degree offers access by our students and graduates to programs currently or increasingly restricted to graduates of LCME accredited institutions."

Total waste of money to go down this road for a student, and foolish for a school to do this. Steer clear of things like this.
First, having an MD that isn't LCME accredited is basically the equivalent of having an offshore MD. It perhaps is the letters some patients are more comfortable seeing, but professionally in the US, you are not going to be the equivalent of and MD from an LCME accredited school. You won't be regarded the same by residencies, won't be regarded the same in the match, etc. Sort of like in law where there are folks who get JD's from non-accredited law schools and find themselves severely limited career-wise because they took an outside path. The degree letters aren't what opens the doors, it's a degree received through a particular accrediting body that opens the doors. You don't need the MD, you need the LCME blessing. Heck, I could sell you a piece of paper that says I am decreeing you an MD, but try to use that to get a job. So this is a huge scam and I wouldn't recommend it for anyone unless they themselves have some personal, self loathing issue with practicing with different letters on their white coat.

Second, if KCUMB is suggesting that DO is simply an MD who knows OMM, they are severely undermining the underpinnings of osteopathy, and this would be a huge step toward eliminating it. Osteopathy isn't about OMM, it's about philosophical differences in the approach to medicine, which have been gradually eroding. The DOs broke away from the MD fold decades ago, and tried to set up their own field, because they found the allopathic practice of medicine philosophically wrong. It wasn't about OMM, it was ideological. If they now want back in, they need to lose the DO degree and come back, not try to create a new "DO/MD" degree that basically concedes that they like different letters but not to be outside of the fold. You either have philosophical differences with MD or you don't. If you don't, then get your school LCME accredited and make your school be an MD program. You can still offer OMM as a non-accredited elective -- several MD programs do this, along with things like alternative medicine and acupuncture.

Also it should be noted that most MD programs aren't offering OMM not because they can't, but because they don't buy into it. As mentioned, a few places offer optional electives in it, much as they might for alternative medicine, accupuncture, etc. So outside of the osteopathy world, most physicians don't see OMM as adding something necessary to your skillset. As such, most in the MD world wouldn't look at a dual MD/DO program where the only difference was OMM particularly favorably. You'd always be better off in the eyes of the allopathic establishment in getting an MD from an allopathic school and taking an elective in OMM someplace than to go to a school that offers a joint degree.

So yeah, this is a silly idea by a school that is apparently conceding that its student body doesn't really want to be DO. If a lot of places feel like this, it may be time for the AOA to approach the LCME and talk about merging osteopathy out of existence and back into the fold.
 
...

What I'm most curious of is whether or not students will be required to take both USMLE and COMLEX. ...

If it's not LCME accredited, you aren't going to be "required" to take the USMLE. But the message the school is sending by talking about using MD letters is that their student body wants to be MDs, not simply DO. Which means they probably will take USMLE because the allopathic route is what they are pushing for. This whole "dual degree" notion is silly because it reduces all of osteopathy to OMM, which, FWIW, is offered as a non-credit elective at a number of allopathic schools already. If that's really the only difference between MD and DO these days, then osteopathy's course has run and it should be eliminated, have the schools merged back into allopathic governance, and concede that the distinctions are now reduced to the optional OMM elective some allo places are offering. You either have philosophical differences, or you don't. If the only difference truly is OMM and the letters on your jacket (which based on this "dual degree" osteopaths don't even like), then the end of osteopathy has arrived -- it has been a failed experiment. It happens. Tell the AOA to disband and merge osteopathy out of existence. No more separate residencies. Fewer boards on SDN. Much more standardized care and rules. Less patient confusion.
 
Total waste of money to go down this road for a student, and foolish for a school to do this. Steer clear of things like this.
First, having an MD that isn't LCME accredited is basically the equivalent of having an offshore MD.

They are considering LCME accreditation. Strawman short-circuited ...
 
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