DO schools no longer doing GPA replacement!

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DokterMom said:
If they were to delay implementing the policy change for a year, it would go a long way to restoring goodwill --
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What if implementing this policy in 2018-2019 was their original goal and by claiming to implement it 2017-2018 and then "delaying it" allows them to gain goodwill by doing nothing? If they said they were gonna implement this policy in 2018-2019, a lot of people would complain that its too soon and by this "delay" , they avoid that backlash as well.
 
Astra118 said:
What if implementing this policy in 2018-2019 was their original goal and by claiming to implement it 2017-2018 and then "delaying it" allows them to gain goodwill by doing nothing? If they said they were gonna implement this policy in 2018-2019, a lot of people would complain that its too soon and by this "delay" , they avoid that backlash as well.
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Slow clap...applause...roaring of the crowd.
 
libertyyne said:
Take out the applicants that will matriculate at MD from the top end of that and you are likely to be left with applicants with high 20s MCATs matriculating. It's not like the lower MCAT scorers are going to suddenly become more appealing to do schools . Would you rather take a 4.0 , 17 or a 2.7 ,30?
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It's a shame that we're never really going to know the answer to how much impact this policy has. Median grades are going to stay the same since the vast majority are not significantly affected. We'd really need something like a DO MSAR to watch the 10th percentiles for GPA.

All were likely to get are a lot of angry posts in the Pre-Osteo forums from people with old failing marks that are disappointed with their cycle
 
Astra118 said:
What if implementing this policy in 2018-2019 was their original goal and by claiming to implement it 2017-2018 and then "delaying it" allows them to gain goodwill by doing nothing? If they said they were gonna implement this policy in 2018-2019, a lot of people would complain that its too soon and by this "delay" , they avoid that backlash as well.
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evil geniuses
 
Nietzsche's Barber said:
Ok...so the average pre-med is from an upper-class background. Meaning that plenty of opportunity existed to succeed, correct? Are you agreeing with me now? I'm not sure what you are getting at...because a minute ago you were talking about what you called 'an outlier'.

And no offense taken. I was above every average at my current school
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The average pre-med matriculant
We have I think over 50k applicants and like less than half get in.
 
gonnif said:
Sorry, short rant. The director of application services sent a letter to all prehealth advisors yesterday telling of the contract they signed with their actual application processing company stating that it was in their contract to stop this grade replacement (presumably the processor's system wasnt designed to handle it). They started using that system in May of 2015 and it was announced months before that to applicants. Hence from early 2015 they knew this. That pisses me the F*CK OFF!

So my argument isnt with the substance of the policy but the way it was done.

Ok, rant over

we now return you to your previously scheduled thread already in progress
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So they knew since 2015 that they were going to do this? Or did I misinterpret your post?
 
Nietzsche's Barber said:
Ok so now think about this...

If you look at my short post history, I spilled the beans that I grew up dirt poor and in foster care. I'm sure that many other applicants have been in the exact same situation. Did they all get in? No. Some did...the one's who did things right the first time regardless of situation or those who went on to show their stuff in advanced level coursework.

Not everyone with a sob story messes up or repeats classes that they failed (maybe they go on to ace their last 60 credits or something similar). And not everyone with a sob story gets to go to medical school.

How much work are you willing to do? How much are you willing to sacrifice? That's what separates those who get in vs. those who don't.

Again, people have done far more with way less. There are enough applicants to choose from...the problem is you are going on this rant about how there are special snowflakes who deserve this or that...life is harsh my friend.
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Agreed. Having to work hard during undergrad is not really an excuse for a terrible GPA. Mine is not amazing, but it's pretty close to the median for MD schools, and I worked ~80 hours a week and raised two girls while getting my degree. I've sacrificed a lot of time with my family for the Navy, and I had to sacrifice even more to get my degree and make my application decent. We'll see if it paid off.
 
I just feel bad for people who have now wasted their money on retaking classes for grade replacement. It's really crappy to not give any advance notice so that people can plan accordingly and not waste their hard earned time and money.
 
I downed two hacker pschorr weisse brews reading through this thread so I'm uniquely qualified to offer my opinion.

What was done here is akin to throwing a ball at someone's face and saying "watch out" 0.3 seconds before it hits them in the face.

Not cool, bruh.

No quarrel with the removal of grade replacement, but early warning would have been considerate...
 
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Nietzsche's Barber said:
At my previous job, do you know what my boss would tell me if I told him I was depressed or had a family tragedy? Get back to work or I will find someone else to replace you. This my friend, is real life!!!
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Not anymore, if a boss acts like this today and there is really something going on that boss loses their job.

For everyone else to think about, the current advice has now changed to "Do an SMP." There are really only a handful of legitimate SMPs out there, think about how competitive these programs just became, the competition will be ruthless.
 
gonnif said:
under 40% of MD applicants matriculate
under 33% of DO applicants matriculate

View attachment 213128
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I find this statistic to be misleading. There is no data comparing the acceptance rates. The lower matriculation rate could be attributed to students who were accepted to both MD and DO that opted to go MD.

Sent from my SM-G930V using SDN mobile
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
For everyone else to think about, the current advice has now changed to "Do an SMP." There are really only a handful of legitimate SMPs out there, think about how competitive these programs just became, the competition will be ruthless.
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I wonder if this decision will ultimately lead to more SMPs being started. Schools have a lot of money to gain from them...
 
tessellations said:
I wonder if this decision will ultimately lead to more SMPs being started. Schools have a lot of money to gain from them...
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Them right now
7554.png
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Agreed. Having to work hard during undergrad is not really an excuse for a terrible GPA. Mine is not amazing, but it's pretty close to the median for MD schools, and I worked ~80 hours a week and raised two girls while getting my degree. I've sacrificed a lot of time with my family for the Navy, and I had to sacrifice even more to get my degree and make my application decent. We'll see if it paid off.
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Both amazing and inspiring. I wish you nothing but the best of luck. I look forward to seeing your success!!!
 
Nietzsche's Barber said:
Both amazing and inspiring. I wish you nothing but the best of luck. I look forward to seeing your success!!!
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Yeah we'll see. Tons of people like that, so I view it more as just proof that having to put in work doesn't necessitate failure.
 
I don't know much about SMP's but are there any DO schools that have SMP programs or are part of larger institutions that do have SMP programs?

If so, I'm curious if they expanded their SMP programs in the time they knew the grade policy change was eminent.
 
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Astra118 said:
I don't know much about SMP's but are there any DO schools that have SMP programs or are part of larger institutions that do have SMP programs?

If so, I'm curious if they expanded their SMP programs in the time they knew the grade policy change was eminent.
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I think Rowan has an SMP (in Biomedical Sciences), from a quick look up. Not sure if there are other DO SMPs, but I wouldn't be too surprised if there were.

Edit: Looks like from this thread that there are quite a few DO SMPs, including the Touros.
 
efle said:
It seems wrong to know this was coming for years and keep that quiet though, no? Not just apathetic, but wrong. People that were trying to repair half a dozen fail grades with a semester of postbacc might drop right back below screens now even having retaken their class. Maybe people would've gone SMP if they knew they'd need 3x as much postbacc work as they thought to get up to 3.3-3.4, that kind of thing. It seems to really punish a small group of people late to realize their interest in medicine out of laziness from AACOMAS.

To me it would be like AMCAS announcing in May 2016 that they were only going to display the new MCAT score this cycle, having quietly planned this since 2014. Tough luck for the minority that took the old test but then needed a gap year. Their fault for not being ready to apply when they took it.
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gonnif said:
I have to disagree. The sudden announcement of this, with a short implementation window (as in the next cycle) while AACOM had contractually committed to this in the end of 2014 or early 2015, as they formally explained in a followup email, is what is immoral. People have spent time, money, effort to fulfill the rules as they were told and then the rules change in the middle of the game with out a 2 or 3 lead time as AAMC did with the 2015 MCAT.
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DokterMom said:
I agree completely -- I don't disagree with the policy change; only with the implementation schedule. Many people have based several years worth of hard work and several thousands of dollars to retake classes to follow this particular admissions pathway. It is well within AACOM's rights to change their policies, but to change the rules suddenly and announce that they are effective immediately -- while they knew for years that they might -- well, it's just wrong.

If they were to delay implementing the policy change for a year, it would go a long way to restoring goodwill --
Click to expand...

That is how the real world works outside of academia. Spending time/money on grade replacement is a risk. This is simply a tabulation and how information is presented change. This is not a sudden change in requirements or change in rules. Another way to look at it, there used to be a way to hide your poor grades from DO schools, they corrected their algorithm so that you couldn't, ie it is more transparent.

Again, I'm not saying that it was a good policy to do what they did, after all, I can't see any benefits that they derived from this. But, other than a gut emotional response, I have a hard time seeing how it is an application service's moral obligation to save applicants time/money. If someone goes out of their way to cost them time/money, I can understand. But, every action/inaction by regulatory bodies, both government and private "screws over" part of the population and their best laid plans.

I also have a hard time seeing this impacting that many applicants. It will shift GPAs, but will it ultimately affect the outcome of applicant cycles? None of us know for sure, but I can't imagine it having a huge affect.
 
tessellations said:
I think Rowan has an SMP (in Biomedical Sciences), from a quick look up. Not sure if there are other DO SMPs, but I wouldn't be too surprised if there were.

Edit: Looks like from this thread that there are quite a few DO SMPs, including the Touros.
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Look's like Wu Tang was right. Cash Rules Everything Around Me
 
mimelim said:
That is how the real world works outside of academia. Spending time/money on grade replacement is a risk. This is simply a tabulation and how information is presented change. This is not a sudden change in requirements or change in rules. Another way to look at it, there used to be a way to hide your poor grades from DO schools, they corrected their algorithm so that you couldn't, ie it is more transparent.

Again, I'm not saying that it was a good policy to do what they did, after all, I can't see any benefits that they derived from this. But, other than a gut emotional response, I have a hard time seeing how it is an application service's moral obligation to save applicants time/money. If someone goes out of their way to cost them time/money, I can understand. But, every action/inaction by regulatory bodies, both government and private "screws over" part of the population and their best laid plans.

I also have a hard time seeing this impacting that many applicants. It will shift GPAs, but will it ultimately affect the outcome of applicant cycles? None of us know for sure, but I can't imagine it having a huge affect.
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I'd agree if the prevailing views among COMs were that info they wanted was being hidden and they'd prefer to have averaged data and do replacement calculations themselves. I'd always assumed COMs liked the system as it had been for years and would not, at the very least, have any reason to want the impending change hidden from everyone until the last moment. But if this reflects the will of the COMs then sure, nothing wrong done by AACOMAS
 
😉

I personally don't see what the big fuss is about. Grade replacement was a disaster!!! You know it, I know it.

When AACOMAS sends its applicants, they are not sending us their best, they're sending us people with lots of problems, problems that they are bringing here! If it were up to me, this would have been gone a LONG time ago!
 
gonnif said:
To quote a formal communication from AACOM director of application services to all premed advisors

"In fact, under our contract with Liaison International (AACOMAS vendor), they only agreed to implement this policy for the first year of the contract with AACOM, and have done so outside of their contract requirements for a second year while we coordinate communication about this change. "

That system with Liasion International went into effect in the 2015 cycle (with major rollout issues). The new system was announced in early 2015, so when did they sign this contract that made them obligated to do this change? Yeah, they knew and made no attempts at an organized outreach of any kind
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while we coordinate communication about this change." :laugh: 👎:boom::wtf:
 
"
😉

I personally don't see what the big fuss is about. Grade replacement was a disaster!!! You know it, I know it.

When AACOMAS sends its applicants, they are not sending us their best, they're sending us people with lots of problems, problems that they are bringing here! If it were up to me, this would have been gone a LONG time ago!

"

I really, really hope that was a joke...
 
mwsapphire said:
You know, I'm pre allopathic, and I withdrew two classes this semester. I withdrew Orgo, and I don't think I need to explain that lol. But I also withdrew a molecular bio class due to a terrible professor who was not willing to curve anybody's grade and who's average grade in the class was below a C-. When I realized I was gonna mess up orgo, I was thinking of retaking so that I wouldnt need tot ake the lab again, but my prof urged me to Withdraw. I did, and after the W deadline, I learned that the AMCAS gpa calculation ( for allopathic schools) did not have grade replacement. I feel like most people who come close to bombing a class realize they should withdraw, and I feel like this policy will only disrupt people with low grades in undergrad total.

Oh btw, I'm new! Hello, everybody!
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Welcome! I had three withdrawals myself, no one cared.
 
OOohhh thank you ! One of the biggest reasons I joined is so that people could tell me a W or two is fine and that it won't undermine a good gpa, or an upwards trend. ( because there's th e overall gpa, then freshman, sophomore , and junior year breakdowns and I was wondering that it would like i had an upwards trend if I had two W's before doing well? If that makes sense)
 
^ Okay that post had to do with my W's,, not with the policy, and yes I realize this is ridiculously unfair. I was just talking about a different topic, my W's but otherwise decent gpa in the making.
 
This is part of the long con IMHO. They are merging residencies, next thing they will merge lcme/coca, after that amcas aaomcas, then MD, DO. Ultimately we will end up with a MODD degree.
 
What they've done is just plain wrong. Whether or not grade replacement is a good policy is up for debate. If they had announced it would take effet in 1-2 years, I sincerely doubt there would be this much outcry. But to let people people invest time, money, and emotions into something that really only benefits them in the realm of medical school admissions, then yank it away like this? That doesn't sit well with me at all. Frankly, I don't think the word "immoral" is entirely inappropriate in this situation. I know a few people who this affected greatly and I feel really bad for them.

Personally, I thought it was a good policy. The system obviously favors people who know they want to be a doctor from the beginning, as it probably should. They are focused from freshman year of college, go to the MD schools and then essentially control their own destiny from that point on in terms of residencies. And then there are people who maybe didn't realize they wanted to be a doctor until later in college, or after they graduated! Or maybe they didn't have the emotional maturity to do well in college at the very beginning. Or maybe it was something else entirely. But this policy gave people a second chance. It basically says, "Look. You're behind the curve in the admissions game, but it's not over yet." And it lets people work hard, prove themselves, and go to a DO school where they might not become a plastic surgeon or something extremely prestigious, but you know what? They might. Or maybe they don't want to do that. And maybe they decide that investing the money to redo two years of college isn't worth it. And that's completely fine.

Bottom line: I think that this policy hurt a lot of people for no good reason. And I think that giving people second chances is a good thing.
 
What comes next for osteopathic schools? Will they implement the same 32 hour rule LSU has? It will be interesting how they go about that....
 
gonnif said:
The residency merger was the end result of a project started in the late 1990s called "Physician 2015" which was in fact the attempt at a grand unification of MD, DO and DPM, in all areas. However the web of entrenched power holders from across all levels of national, state, local, professional, and specialty groups in the form of societies, associations, boards and other organizations could not be overcome. It really was the decline of osteopathic hospitals and the inability for them to fill their residency slots and the allopathic side to get more slots that was the main driver. The osteopathic organizations (AOA, COCA, AACOM) are not nearly as well funded or in as much a position of power over their colleges as the allopathic side is. AACOMAS is not nearly as well run as AMCAS and I see it being pushed by the schools trying to keep up. I wonder if it will be some college pulling out of AACOMAS that will be first of some collaboration with LCME and COCA first
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7drHiqrh.jpg
 
libertyyne said:
I think the DO average matriculant gpa will drop and they will end up taking people from the same pool of applicants. This policy won't magically bring applicants with higher gpa into the pool and DO schools still have to fill their classes.
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Ehh not necessarily. Its possible that they keep the same GPA by overlooking other things like ECs.
 
Nietzsche's Barber said:
I understand that it's not fair. But again, this is the generation that believes actions do not have consequences and that Jim or Sally deserves to be what they want to be regardless of past history. That's not the way the real world works. And it's not like these students don't have any options: post-bacc, SMP, grad school, etc.

The easiest way was stolen, and that's why they are having a meltdown.
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I have no horse in this race but I think the meltdown is more about the fact that they spent large amounts of money and time on something that is now without practical value. If they knew that this was going to happen maybe they would have focused their efforts on a different path.
 
I'm glad I got accepted this year. AACOMAS sent an email and I replied and said "bad idea" especially since DO schools attract a lot of nontraditional students like myself. They might as well merge with AMCAS if they're going to take it away at least save next years applicants time and money
 
Nietzsche's Barber said:
Yeah...I don't really understand how people can have so many terrible grades. I would take a few W's over a few F's/D's/C's any day.

But at the end of the day, the people who want to become physicians will do so. Now, people will have to overcome the good ole' fashion way.

[Edit] And now they have a (poorly written) petition. Some would say that if they only put this much time and energy into their coursework this would not be a big deal...(OMG I sound like my DAD!)
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At my undergrad, the withdraw deadline was about a month into the semester. Any "withdrawal" after that would be marked as a failure. Just throwing that out there. Schools have different policies globally.

This will not affect a ton of people, and ultimately affected my GPA by relatively little because of the awkward method that my undergrad used for credit hours that made it impossible to find courses elsewhere with equivalent or greater credit hours for equivalent courses.

That said, it really is unfair to the individuals, including nontrads that have old low undergrad grades and have already paid and enrolled in retakes only to be told that the policy is changing overnight. I have no problem with the change and its purpose, but not having a couple years transition is akin to the old MCAT saying that starting next month they will be throwing in all this psych and sociology and changing the format and scoring of the exam when students are in the middle of studying for the old one. That's not what the AAMC did. They gave people years of notice.

Sure, AACOMAS may not "owe" applicants anything, but its still a dick move to make the change overnight.
 
I think this is wrong in that it was implemented without enough notice, and those who don't think this is a big deal are either lacking in empathy or have little insight into just how expensive it is to take college courses nowadays. This is literally thousands of dollars down the drain for those who planned their strategy around the old policy.
 
mwsapphire said:
"
😉

I personally don't see what the big fuss is about. Grade replacement was a disaster!!! You know it, I know it.

When AACOMAS sends its applicants, they are not sending us their best, they're sending us people with lots of problems, problems that they are bringing here! If it were up to me, this would have been gone a LONG time ago!

"
I really, really hope that was a joke...
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Read his username
 
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