DO schools

[stud247]

I got rejected everywhere this cycle. I did not apply to any DO schools. Now I am working to improve my application, but I will also add DO schools to my list of schools. But I wonder if I should even care about the MD schools any more? Part of my application will now include a 1yr SMP. it's expensive obviously. I was a splitter (high mcat, low gpa), but I feel I would have easily gotten into DO schools. So I wonder how much am I missing really if I were to go to a DO school? I am not sure about my specialty choice, but I would strongly consider radiology(a competitive specialty). I wonder if I would be at a great disadvantage by going DO or as long as my step1 scores are comparable, my chances to get in are comparable? I am confident that I would do on step1 as well as on the mcat.

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[binko]

This thread gonna get moved.

Also please use the search function and read the pre-DO forum. This question gets asked a LOT.

Basically you won't be at a significant disadvantage.

 

[ChairmanMao]

I got rejected everywhere this cycle. I did not apply to any DO schools. Now I am working to improve my application, but I will also add DO schools to my list of schools. But I wonder if I should even care about the MD schools any more? Part of my application will now include a 1yr SMP. it's expensive obviously. I was a splitter (high mcat, low gpa), but I feel I would have easily gotten into DO schools. So I wonder how much am I missing really if I were to go to a DO school? I am not sure about my specialty choice, but I would strongly consider radiology(a competitive specialty). I wonder if I would be at a great disadvantage by going DO or as long as my step1 scores are comparable, my chances to get in are comparable? I am confident that I would do on step1 as well as on the mcat.

Well what's you GPA and MCAT. Without these information, we have no idea to determine how competitive you are for MD schools

 

[stud247]

This thread gonna get moved.

Also please use the search function and read the pre-DO forum. This question gets asked a LOT.

Basically you won't be at a significant disadvantage.

i have used search. and basically most people say there is disadvantage or there isn't. but it is not discussed what i have to gain by making my application more competitive to get into MD schools.

 

[stud247]

Well what's you GPA and MCAT. Without these information, we have no idea to determine how competitive you are for MD schools

3.3/37. also i like florida(not a resident but it has 2 DO schools. i like that the one in bradenton has pbl and is relatively cheap. but ive never been there so i dont know how are the beaches. i really like miami beach and fort lauderdale just isnt quite as good. i think miami beach has a bigger shoreline, fewer waves and as a consequence cleaner, bluer water, and i like that there are so many tourists). and i like upper midwest (there are 2 MD schools, one of which accepts a lot of outofstaters, but they are unlikely to accept me) and my state schools(northeast) would be much cheaper and i am unsure about the location. i mention location because it could help me or hurt me while studying for step1.

 

[Bacchus]

With a 3.3 and 37 you should do some extra coursework and pull the GPA up to a 3.5. If you do that, you're going to do relatively well, I'd think. Browse the pre-osteopathic forums... they're a goldmine of information and you'll get legitimate advice that isn't pervaded with the OH NOES DO SCHOOLZ ARE TEH SUXORZ.

 

[Brown8472]

3.3/37. also i like florida(not a resident but it has 2 DO schools. i like that the one in bradenton has pbl and is relatively cheap. but ive never been there so i dont know how are the beaches. i really like miami beach and fort lauderdale just isnt quite as good. i think miami beach has a bigger shoreline, fewer waves and as a consequence cleaner, bluer water, and i like that there are so many tourists). and i like upper midwest (there are 2 MD schools, one of which accepts a lot of outofstaters, but they are unlikely to accept me) and my state schools(northeast) would be much cheaper and i am unsure about the location. i mention location because it could help me or hurt me while studying for step1.

If you are thinking Florida, you should probably be more specific about what attract you to that location. Because for us, the beach thing and the shoreline do not seem too interesting. Floridians don't get too excited about that subject after a while, it's always too hot or too humid or too many sharks or hurricanes.

 

[stud247]

With a 3.3 and 37 you should do some extra coursework and pull the GPA up to a 3.5. If you do that, you're going to do relatively well, I'd think. Browse the pre-osteopathic forums... they're a goldmine of information and you'll get legitimate advice that isn't pervaded with the OH NOES DO SCHOOLZ ARE TEH SUXORZ.

thats what i plan to do by enrolling in smp. but really my stats would be fine for DO. And I need to know what I have to gain by doing MD (keep in mind that even if there is a good chance that an m.d. school accepts me, i dont know which one, and it's possible that i'll hate something about it).

 

[stud247]

If you are thinking Florida, you should probably be more specific about what attract you to that location. Because for us, the beach thing and the shoreline do not seem too interesting. Floridians don't get too excited about that subject after a while, it's always too hot or too humid or too many sharks or hurricanes.

i really like miami beach. i dont know much about the rest of florida. is it true that tampa area has a lot of shark attacks and that there are no tourists from abroad? then it kinda sucks. Ft Lauderdale is much closer. I think it's cool that I can go to the beach any day here. And if i want to party, there is the nikki beach.. I am not as physically active here because I basically swim 100yards and get out. And it's too hot to do some of the other sports. I just think that it's better than some of the places like St Louis or Washington.

 

[tdittyx2x3]

I was admitted to an MD school with 3.3/32.. so its definitely possible. I would absolutely apply to MD schools this second time around. What do you have to lose? The only real downsides are the cost and time for the applications (1k vs 300k.. people like to make a big deal about it but if you think about it.. its pennies in the long run) and with really solid SMP grades your app will look much better.

Did you learn your lesson last time? You need to apply VERY early, broadly, and only to the lower tier schools/all your state schools. I wouldn't hesitate to apply to 20 or 25. Try not to include too many schools you applied to this past cycle.

You should have gotten at least one interview with your stats so you need to troubleshoot your application. Was your personal statement too cookie cutter? Did you have a weak LOR? Did you fill out the secondaries thoughtfully? Were you complete at all your schools as early as possible? Make changes to your app accordingly. I hope you have some new EC's to tack on too...

 

[stud247]

I was admitted to an MD school with 3.3/32.. so its definitely possible. I would absolutely apply to MD schools this second time around. What do you have to lose? The only real downsides are the cost and time for the applications (1k vs 300k.. people like to make a big deal about it but if you think about it.. its pennies in the long run) and with really solid SMP grades your app will look much better.

Did you learn your lesson last time? You need to apply VERY early, broadly, and only to the lower tier schools/all your state schools. I wouldn't hesitate to apply to 20 or 25. Try not to include too many schools you applied to this past cycle.

You should have gotten at least one interview with your stats so you need to troubleshoot your application. Was your personal statement too cookie cutter? Did you have a weak LOR? Did you fill out the secondaries thoughtfully? Were you complete at all your schools as early as possible? Make changes to your app accordingly. I hope you have some new EC's to tack on too...

yeah i can do all those things. but the hardest part is getting good grades in SMP and paying a lot of $$ for it. to do that I must know that MD school is much more advantageous for me than a DO school.

 

[Bacchus]

SMP is not going to boost your undergraduate GPA... its graduate level courses. You would use a post-bacc to boost those grades.

 

[Pghboy18]

3.3/37. also i like florida(not a resident but it has 2 DO schools. i like that the one in bradenton has pbl and is relatively cheap. but ive never been there so i dont know how are the beaches. i really like miami beach and fort lauderdale just isnt quite as good. i think miami beach has a bigger shoreline, fewer waves and as a consequence cleaner, bluer water, and i like that there are so many tourists). and i like upper midwest (there are 2 MD schools, one of which accepts a lot of outofstaters, but they are unlikely to accept me) and my state schools(northeast) would be much cheaper and i am unsure about the location. i mention location because it could help me or hurt me while studying for step1.

Have you talked to anybody about your personal statement and how you present yourself in the application? Also, how many schools did you apply to?

I only ask because there are many, many people that we all know who have gotten into allo schools with numbers lower than yours. Don't automatically assume that you didn't get any love because of the low GPA. I wouldn't do an SMP unless it were absolutely necessary - the cost of those programs can be staggering, especially on top of undergrad and med school loans.

 

[yellowtibby]

3.3/37. also i like florida(not a resident but it has 2 DO schools. i like that the one in bradenton has pbl and is relatively cheap. but ive never been there so i dont know how are the beaches. i really like miami beach and fort lauderdale just isnt quite as good. i think miami beach has a bigger shoreline, fewer waves and as a consequence cleaner, bluer water, and i like that there are so many tourists). and i like upper midwest (there are 2 MD schools, one of which accepts a lot of outofstaters, but they are unlikely to accept me) and my state schools(northeast) would be much cheaper and i am unsure about the location. i mention location because it could help me or hurt me while studying for step1.

I'm really surprised you didn't get in with a 3.3 and a 37. Was 3.3 your bcpm?

 

[stud247]

Have you talked to anybody about your personal statement and how you present yourself in the application? Also, how many schools did you apply to?

I only ask because there are many, many people that we all know who have gotten into allo schools with numbers lower than yours. Don't automatically assume that you didn't get any love because of the low GPA. I wouldn't do an SMP unless it were absolutely necessary - the cost of those programs can be staggering, especially on top of undergrad and med school loans.

I talked about my PS last year and I think it could be improved. So I am rewriting it. Basically I am working on improving my application. But if I want MD schools it's really important to do well during this first semester. If I had a 4.0gpa I am sure I could get in somewhere without any effort. But I really need to know why should I want to go to MD schools so badly over DO schools?
I applied to many schools in October, mostly lower tier, 1 interview(****ed up).

 

[stud247]

SMP is not going to boost your undergraduate GPA... its graduate level courses. You would use a post-bacc to boost those grades.

I am not looking to boost my ugrad gpa. I know that if you get straight A's in smp it still counts. I do not plan to get straight A's though(I might give it my best during Fall, but after December forget it). I don't have anything better lined up, already sent in my deposit.

 

[stud247]

I'm really surprised you didn't get in with a 3.3 and a 37. Was 3.3 your bcpm?

yes. and overall gpa was about the same.

 

[Bacchus]

That's why you didn't get in. You applied too late. Save your 40,000 and don't do the SMP. Apply as soon as possible and throw in some "top-tier" DO schools. Profit.

 

[Bacchus]

There's no reason to do the SMP... especially if you're going to half-ass the second half of it. It has to be taken seriously. If you do poorly the second half you basically F'ed yourself and you will be writing to FML because of it. Get serious and do things right.

 

[Longshanks]

I am not looking to boost my ugrad gpa. I know that if you get straight A's in smp it still counts. I do not plan to get straight A's though(I might give it my best during Fall, but after December forget it). I don't have anything better lined up, already sent in my deposit.

Why half-ass it? You're in the same boat I'm in (3.33 GPA so doing SMP), but if you only sail half way and then say F* it...what good will that do? I doubt that'll impress any adcoms. Sure, a straight 4.0 will be difficult but why not try for it? You have a year to improve you're application so do everything absolutely necessary to make it stronger.

 

[nlax30]

yeah i can do all those things. but the hardest part is getting good grades in SMP and paying a lot of $$ for it. to do that I must know that MD school is much more advantageous for me than a DO school.

I don't think you're going to find a good answer for this. It's so subjective, depends on MANY factors, and that part of your decision is still at least 4-5 years away.

If you've done any amount of reading on here then you've probably seen the general theme that there still is probably still some sort of/slight disadvantage when trying for a competitive MD residency as a DO. Beyond that there is going to be a LOT of variability among programs, among applicants, and anecdotal evidence at both extremes. There are still osteo residency programs remember, but a competitive specialty is a competitive specialty.... no matter MD or DO or who you are.

I know you would like something concrete but it's just not possible to come to point where you can say you have x% chance of matching radiology after a SMP and MD school, as opposed to y% chance of matching if you went straight into a DO school.

If you wanted to do MD in Florida then Miami would be your only shot as it's the only one that I know of (besides the 2 DO schools) that's friendly to non-FL residents.

 

[stud247]

There's no reason to do the SMP... especially if you're going to half-ass the second half of it. It has to be taken seriously. If you do poorly the second half you basically F'ed yourself and you will be writing to FML because of it. Get serious and do things right.

Applying late was definitely not the only reason. Some schools rejected me right away(Urochester in Nov). The one that interviewed me made the invitation before the end of October.. I saw some link which listed the 10-90%ile range and at most schools it started at 3.4+. Georgetown smp students tend to get interviews at several schools if they get good grades during the first part of the semester. So if i get those, it no longer matters how I do during the 2nd semester. If I get accepted before Dec25, I stop right there.
What are considered the good DO schools? I read on DO forums that PCOM is considered the best. But I think Philadelphia is just like Washington. Is Nova any good? I like the pbl curriculum for Erie-Bradenton, but I heard that gulf coast sucks.

 

[stud247]

Why half-ass it? You're in the same boat I'm in (3.33 GPA so doing SMP), but if you only sail half way and then say F* it...what good will that do? I doubt that'll impress any adcoms. Sure, a straight 4.0 will be difficult but why not try for it? You have a year to improve you're application so do everything absolutely necessary to make it stronger.

If I apply early then most schools will make their decisions on me before the 1st semester is over. The only exception might be the smp home school. It might give me a late spring interview. May I ask why you're putting all this effort into MD acceptance? I mean of course there must be at least a small difference in reputation when you're applying to residencies. But if it's small, then it may not justify all this work.

 

[Longshanks]

Applying late was definitely not the only reason. Some schools rejected me right away(Urochester in Nov). The one that interviewed me made the invitation before the end of October.. I saw some link which listed the 10-90%ile range and at most schools it started at 3.4+. Georgetown smp students tend to get interviews at several schools if they get good grades during the first part of the semester. So if i get those, it no longer matters how I do during the 2nd semester. If I get accepted before Dec25, I stop right there.
What are considered the good DO schools? I read on DO forums that PCOM is considered the best. But I think Philadelphia is just like Washington. Is Nova any good? I like the pbl curriculum for Erie-Bradenton, but I heard that gulf coast sucks.

We're not trying to attack you, but understand your logic or help you out here, at least I am. I just don't see the logic in that. You're going to apply, spend your money on and take an SMP the same year and only work hard for one semester... if you apply that year no one is going to see grades, its not on AMCAS. Sure you can send an update but you'll still be judged on an application that is essentially identical to your previous application. If you can't put in two solid semesters at an SMP what makes you think, or lead an adcom to believe, that you can put in four solids years in medical school?

edit: To answer you're reply to me above, I'm putting in this effort so I can try to get into either MD or DO. I'm applying to both and whichever is the right fit for me (the school, location, and money) is where I'll go. I'd be ecstatic if I got into either a SUNY or NYCOM or any other med school for that matter (I'm just using the NYC area as an example because I'd like to be back home).

 

[stud247]

I don't think you're going to find a good answer for this. It's so subjective, depends on MANY factors, and that part of your decision is still at least 4-5 years away.

If you've done any amount of reading on here then you've probably seen the general theme that there still is probably still some sort of/slight disadvantage when trying for a competitive MD residency as a DO. Beyond that there is going to be a LOT of variability among programs, among applicants, and anecdotal evidence at both extremes. There are still osteo residency programs remember, but a competitive specialty is a competitive specialty.... no matter MD or DO or who you are.

I know you would like something concrete but it's just not possible to come to point where you can say you have x% chance of matching radiology after a SMP and MD school, as opposed to y% chance of matching if you went straight into a DO school.

If you wanted to do MD in Florida then Miami would be your only shot as it's the only one that I know of (besides the 2 DO schools) that's friendly to non-FL residents.

Thank you. I really was looking for those numbers. I did the search and found something like this for the caribbean. I basically found that if there are no other factors involved, then a 250 from a caribbean would make you less competitive for radiology(or ortho/etc) than a 230 from a u.s. md. That led me to drop img from my consideration. I didnt find such horrifying statistics for the DO grads.
I cannot apply to miami. For out-of-state residents they list a 3.6gpa as the minimum for consideration.

 

[Bacchus]

Applying late was definitely not the only reason. Some schools rejected me right away(Urochester in Nov). The one that interviewed me made the invitation before the end of October.. I saw some link which listed the 10-90%ile range and at most schools it started at 3.4+. Georgetown smp students tend to get interviews at several schools if they get good grades during the first part of the semester. So if i get those, it no longer matters how I do during the 2nd semester. If I get accepted before Dec25, I stop right there.
What are considered the good DO schools? I read on DO forums that PCOM is considered the best. But I think Philadelphia is just like Washington. Is Nova any good? I like the pbl curriculum for Erie-Bradenton, but I heard that gulf coast sucks.

And when you submit those SMP grades (as legally obliged to) to your new school they can say, "Bye-Bye we don't need you failing first year."

 

[stud247]

We're not trying to attack you, but understand your logic or help you out here, at least I am. I just don't see the logic in that. You're going to apply, spend your money on and take an SMP the same year and only work hard for one semester... if you apply that year no one is going to see grades, its not on AMCAS. Sure you can send an update but you'll still be judged on an application that is essentially identical to your previous application. If you can't put in two solid semesters at an SMP what makes you think, or lead an adcom to believe, that you can put in four solids years in medical school?

edit: To answer you're reply to me above, I'm putting in this effort so I can try to get into either MD or DO. I'm applying to both and whichever is the right fit for me (the school, location, and money) is where I'll go. I'd be ecstatic if I got into either a SUNY or NYCOM.

I understand it's illogical that 1 semester of smp should make a difference. For many schools - it doesn't. But there are several that consistently take same year smp applicants. I hope you do not intend to take smp and apply only a year later.
SUNYs are cheap. But theyre located not in canada and not in the tropics. Heard that Downstate had a terrible atmosphere. I wonder how humiliated I will be if I do this smp, get into Downstate off the waitlist in June and then do poorly and end up in FM. I could end up in FM without all this needless effort.

 

[stud247]

And when you submit those SMP grades (as legally obliged to) to your new school they can say, "Bye-Bye we don't need you failing first year."

no, that's a myth. they cant do that unless they write in my acceptance letter "must maintain a certain gpa".

 

[Bacchus]

no, that's a myth. they cant do that unless they write in my acceptance letter "must maintain a certain gpa".

Every acceptance comes with some clause stating you must maintain academic performance.

If you want to play Russian Roulette with an acceptance, go ahead but you have already received good advice in this thread:

1) Raise your undergrad GPA to a 3.5 or so
2) Apply DO
3) Apply early
4) Scrap the SMP and save yourself the money

 

[aznb0y129]

no, that's a myth. they cant do that unless they write in my acceptance letter "must maintain a certain gpa".

Downstate only says you need to get at least a C in all of your classes before you matriculate.

 

[Bacchus]

Downstate only says you need to get at least a C in all of your classes before you matriculate.

That's better than PCOM's, "...maintain academic performance." does that mean?

 

[drizzt3117]

Some schools will want you to finish the SMP. Some do not require it.

I think it's in your advantage to pursue the MD as opposed to DO if you're dead set on competitive specialties. SMP might help you but it also might not, because your profile is not one that traditionally benefits strongly from a SMP.

 

[Optimator]

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[Bacchus]

That's awesome advice, especially considering DO's have their own residencies - in the competitive specialties. Is everyone this friggin' stupid? Big fish, small pond? Nobody?

Advice will vary.

 

[drizzt3117]

That's awesome advice, especially considering DO's have their own residencies - in the competitive specialties. Is everyone this friggin' stupid? Big fish, small pond? Nobody?

There are many reasons that you'd want to attend a MD program for research-driven fields such as radiology, I didn't really elaborate on them but in general it will be in your best interest to attend a MD school because they tend to be more research focused. It's not impossible to match into the field from a DO program but I still think the OP would be best served attending a MD school, especially since his stats are competitive for one.

 

[Optimator]

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[Optimator]

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[Longshanks]

I understand it's illogical that 1 semester of smp should make a difference. For many schools - it doesn't. But there are several that consistently take same year smp applicants. I hope you do not intend to take smp and apply only a year later.
SUNYs are cheap. But theyre located not in canada and not in the tropics. Heard that Downstate had a terrible atmosphere. I wonder how humiliated I will be if I do this smp, get into Downstate off the waitlist in June and then do poorly and end up in FM. I could end up in FM without all this needless effort.

I'm done with my SMP this semester, at least in terms of classes, but will be finishing my research project through the summer and next semester and my lab is hoping to have at least two publications by the fall, so I'm applying this year.

Some people really knock Downstate's "atmosphere" because they haven't seen how much Brooklyn has changed. Is it still in a rough area? Yeah, but its a lot better than it was 10 years ago and I've only heard good about the school from the doctor's where I clerk during summers (I don't clerk at downstate but another high volume er in new york).

 

[drizzt3117]

DO's HAVE THEIR OWN RESIDENCIES.

Meditate on the above phrase as if it were a koan.

right, but they also have relatively few in the competitive specialties and they're also not evenly distributed throughout the country. There are only 14 osteopathic radiology residency programs compared to more than 100 allo programs. They also aren't necessarily very highly regarded programs compared to the allo residencies, which is why some DO students will take the USMLE and apply in the allo match, in which they will be at a disadvantage.

 

[Optimator]

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[drizzt3117]

In the competitive specialties, DOs don't preferentially apply allo, you're referring to the relatively uncompetitive specialties.

If you want a competitive specialty, I submit that it's easier to achieve as a DO than an MD.

With reference to highly regarded, there are plenty that are indeed highly regarded. Of course, if you want a career in academic medicine, I agree with you, go MD (but certainly not Caribbean).

did you even read the post? There's >14< total DO radiology programs compared to 100+ allo programs, which in general also have more seats per program. Currnetly I believe the radio of MD/DO seats is about 8:1...

 

[Optimator]

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[drizzt3117]

What's the ratio of MDO students?

actually it looks like it's a bit under 5:1 right now.

 

[Optimator]

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[drizzt3117]

What about in the competitive specialties? DOs have a disproportionate number of people pursuing primary care.

They don't break it out on the AOA site, they say ~40% of DO grads matching are in "other specialties" whatever that means.

 

[rkells]

There seems to be a new DO school popping up every year, some of them even "for-profit". I suspect that if accreditation were just as easy, these for-profit DO schools would have been for-profit MD schools, but it seems that it is easier for DO schools to get their DO accreditation. It's a shame, because there are some solid DO schools (PCOM etc), but with new sub-par and for-profit DO schools opening up everywhere, the stigma of a DO degree being a "quack" degree will probably take a little longer to fully shed. That's something you'll have to live with, the constant defense of your degree, for the rest of your life.

 

[Bacchus]

There seems to be a new DO school popping up every year, some of them even "for-profit". I suspect that if accreditation were just as easy, these for-profit DO schools would have been for-profit MD schools, but it seems that it is easier for DO schools to get their DO accreditation. It's a shame, because there are some solid DO schools (PCOM etc), but with new sub-par and for-profit DO schools opening up everywhere, the stigma of a DO degree being a "quack" degree will probably take a little longer to fully shed. That's something you'll have to live with, the constant defense of your degree, for the rest of your life.

You could live with that... but who honestly cares? For the majority of physicians they're not going to be at a loss for patients. Also, there might be new schools every year, but atleast its an address towards the shortage of physicians in the country. Also, the only for-profit school is RVU and the DO community pretty much is pissed at the AOA for allowing it.

 

[Jadyn21]

Honestly, those stats you listed should be enough to get you into an MD school..


However, Radiology is a specialty notorious for being board heavy when selecting it's residents. If you rock Step I, you shouldn't have a problem matching. There are plenty of students in our school right now that got mid 30s on the MCATs and are planning to go into competitive specialties..

Also, you might want to ask some advice on the Rads forum...

 

[chocolaterie]

There seems to be a new DO school popping up every year, some of them even "for-profit". I suspect that if accreditation were just as easy, these for-profit DO schools would have been for-profit MD schools, but it seems that it is easier for DO schools to get their DO accreditation. It's a shame, because there are some solid DO schools (PCOM etc), but with new sub-par and for-profit DO schools opening up everywhere, the stigma of a DO degree being a "quack" degree will probably take a little longer to fully shed. That's something you'll have to live with, the constant defense of your degree, for the rest of your life.

As someone who has worked in for profit education and now state funded education I am adverse to the former. Please cite where you received your information. There is just one - RVU, as stated by a previous poster. If there are more, please list. If not, please use due diligence to research your facts before sharing (it helps to decrease the spread of misinformation).

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Dude, just take a few cake classes and raise the gpa .1 or .2. 37 mcat = semi godlike.