Do skull bones move poll

[jhug]

THAT is why 99% of the time you and i are on the same page...very well articulated!!!

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[MichelleVsMedSt]

J
michelle- as was stated earlier, there is something in "the touch" that is therapeutic...holding someones hand, rubbing an owie, whatever...and getting someone to buy into a treatment is also therapeutic- that's why you see 10% of men taking placebo instead of viagra who claim to have better "performance"...cranial is *at best* a placebo...so should we be taught, tested, and held responsible for fallacy-laced placebo treatments? I would say that is unethical and wrong...quite un-osteopathic.

Yes I am well aware of the placebo effect. I especially enjoy the studies that say painful injections seem to be the most effective cure, followed then by big red pills, with little white pills being the least effective. I think thats pretty much a cop-out to just toss it in the pile of placebo effects. You can do that with anything you don't understand the mechanism of. I have always found myself very lucky to be surrounded by family and friends who think what I am doing is complete quackery. Everytime I would try a new technique on them, cranial or whatever, they would give it to me straight if I was just hurting them or it wasn't doing a damn thing, and when things would work, they were always suprised. In fact, we have a "home remedy for headaches" where one person just squeezes really hard on the forehead and occiput, usually resulting in maybe 50% improvement. One day I begged my aunt to let me do the CV4 on her after a nap, 3 tries with the home remedy and 6 tylenol over a 3 hour period hadn't fixed her terrible headache. As I was doing it, her light sensitivty disappeared and 15 minutes later the headache was completely gone.

Maybe that was a completely isolated case, but thats a pretty amazing placebo to convert the non-believer. I hav tons more stories like that and i know other people do too. Or maybe it was "something in my touch." Why is that easier to believe? I mean, we're getting pretty touchy-feely with that one, aren't we? I understand being held by loved ones makes us feel better, there's no arguing that...but being held by someone you think is doing quackery and you don't really want them touching you in the first place? Hmmm....do we need to start delving into energy studies at that point? Now there's a sticky field of study...did I infuse her with my "healing positive energy"? I mean, I know professors who completely believe that and have claimed to diagnose tenderpoints from across the room b/c they can "sense the bad energy" around that area.

 

[FizbanZymogen]

not to be mean but your the type of student who keeps DO's from being taken seriously in the allo match.

 

[Dr JPH]

not to be mean but your the type of student who keeps DO's from being taken seriously in the allo match.

I dont think thats the case.

If program directors and MDs (as well as MD students) cant look to the individual rather than judging a group based on a few members than they are the ones in trouble.

Imagine if my entire opinion of the allopathic world was based on Andrew Weil and Robert Rey. Scary.

 

[FizbanZymogen]

I'm not saying its right JP, I'm just saying its one of the main reasons. I mean look at the poll so far about 33% polled really believe skull bones move. That's quite a large representation and the PD's see things like that as reinforcement for their bias.

 

[Dr JPH]

I'm not saying its right JP, I'm just saying its one of the main reasons.

Not a chance.

Main reasons:

1. Lower board scores
2. PDs being unfamiliar with the programs
3. Lack of precedence of DOs at that program
4. Lack of rotation time at that hospital/program
5. Greater familiarity with the students from their own institution

The day that a PD says "They teach cranial at DO schools so I'm not taking a DO into my program" is the day I will eat my surgical cap. And my used 7 1/2s.

 

[FizbanZymogen]

Well we can agree to disagree. And yes two PD's I spoke with did say becuase DO's are taught psuedo-science along with medicine it makes them less credible in their eyes compared to their MD counterparts (both PD's are from the Seattle area).

 

[Dr JPH]

What programs?

And if they are turning away good DO candidates simply because they had a few hours of cranial teaching during school then their programs likely have more serious issues than "pseudo-trained" residents.

 

[FizbanZymogen]

These PD's aren't just turning away DO's they are weighing them against MD's who are competing for the same spots. So if you have an MD and a DO and both scored about the same on the USMLE these PD's are saying that the MD has more credibility in their minds, end of story with these guys. I won't personally name anyone person but one the PD's is from a respected Anesthesia program out here and the other from a respected Neuorology program.

 

[Old brain]

That is how the Bone: Inion is formed and all other shapes of the bones are shaped by the stresses of the surrounding musculature etc smile it makes you happy

 

[cremaster2007]

I've only seen the sutures move when you apply a footplate and saw through them. Just my observations during my 4 months of neurosurgery as a student......

 

[hyperbaric]

That is how the Bone: Inion is formed and all other shapes of the bones are shaped by the stresses of the surrounding musculature etc smile it makes you happy

Why, oh why did you bring this back to life? I guess this would be an appropriate time to utilize one of the new, super, duper smilies.

 

[DeLaughterDO]

Why, oh why did you bring this back to life? I guess this would be an appropriate time to utilize one of the new, super, duper smilies.

You know, I was wondering the same thing myself when I saw this had been resurrected after almost 6 months of blessed dormancy.

oh well.

F McF P

jd

 

[71263]

As I am joining this late, I have no idea whether or not anyone mentioned what Im about to say, nor do I care.

But you know, technically the jaw is part of the skull, so yes.

 

[Bleurberry]

"You can try to DIScredit the cranial theory all you want and it doesn't make it NOT so"

It most certainly does. That is precisely what we need to do to practice scientific medicine. We need to throw out bizarre, discredited procedures.

You have the burden of proof all backwards. We don't come up with bizarre theories and then tell skeptics "OK. Now it's your turn to *disprove* it. If you don't, then I'll consider it correct." The quality, peer-reviewed research shows that Sutherland's theory is bunk and that the therapeutic techniques are unfounded. Cranial therapists make extraordinary claims; they need to demonstrate their theories with GOOD research, not crap written by Upledger for the JAOA. Give me large sample size, double blind, placebo-controlled, third party studies, then we can talk.

I apologize for my harsh tone. I once thought that CS sounded neat and plausible. Then I tried to argue with some docs and scientists that knew the real science and they completely (and I now see correctly) trashed my arguments. One of the most important marks of a good doctor, is the willingness to change his/her mind in light of contrary evidence. We can get so fooled by placebo, that we always need to question our practices.

The articles below describe the consensus of the scientific and medical community and why they don't believe in CS.

http://faculty.une.edu/com/shartman/sram.pdf

http://faculty.une.edu/com/shartman/Library/H-N%202004-05 on K-L in SRAM.pdf

Design me a double blind study for OMM, I'll make it happen. In other words, how do you get a physician to convince himself/herself that he/she is unsure whether they are applying the proper technique or a sham technique?

Also, the study you cite shouldn't dissuade you from the efficacy of cranial. It's a flawed analysis, to say the least.
Keep an open mind, or don't. Either way is fine.

 

[MaximusD]

I cannot prove that the bones are moving. BUT I do feel something. I don't know if its the bone or if I'm feeling through to the pulsations of the arteries or CSF fluctuations. What I do know is that I have stopped people's pain. I have stopped migraines and helped insomnia by doing the CV4 technique. I have treated tension headaches by doing suture spreading techniques. Thats not faith, its results.

Could be placebo effect, as I'm sure you know --

 

[Dr JPH]

Pure observation of skulls show us that in the great majority of people the sutures between the skull bones fuse by the 3rd decade of life.

I dont know how much more clear you can be.

Every time something comes out in the literature regarding cranial, the cranialites change their story.

If something comes out supporting their theories the response is "See, I told you so."

If something comes out against their theories the response is "Well...actually we think we're feeling (blah blah blah), and that wasnt tested in this article."

Fine.

If you want to palpate the movements of fused bones or the movement of CSF through the ventricles, then go for it.

But dont charge people.

Dont tell them its a proven treatment.

And for Gods sake, dont tell people its "OMT".

Cranial was developed long after AT Still left this earth. OMT is supposed to be the manual relief of musculoskeletal restriction in order to maintain health and restore normal function.

Realigning bones that are fused together or adjusting the flow of fluid deep within the cranium doesnt fit into this model.

IMO its an embarassment to the osteopathic community and is one of the things holding our profession back in some areas.

If you want proof of this, take 3 people who consider themselves cranialites and give them a simple inter-examiner reliability study. Have them each palpate someones skull and then write down their diagnosis. You will be lucky to get 2 similar answers.

Have you ever seen such a study published by the pro-cranial crowd? No, and you wont.

Want to know what happens when you do this sort of study? "Well, after I palpated the head and made my diagnosis the body has an innate ability to change...every time I touch a patient I cause a change and therefore the next person will naturally feel something different." Riiiight.

And if you need any more convincing as to the cultist nature of this nonsense, simply do some reading and listen to the talks given by the holy goddess of cranial, Viola Fryman. "You must accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior in order to be a good physician." Oh yes...and not one person in the audience flinches...in fact, they give her standing ovations.

There you have it. I disproved cranial.

Now I need to go change into my jumpsuit and drink some Kool-Aid...there is a comet coming tonight.

JPHazelton
(Former OMM Fellow and student of several cranial courses)

 

[Old brain]

Radiographic Evidence
of Cranial Bone Mobility


This is the first study to determine that cranial mobility can be visualized and measured on x-ray. It yielded the interesting finding that cranial mobility can be quantified.

Conclusion
This pilot study supports the observation that cranial mobility can be recorded and measured on x-ray...





http://www.icnr.com/craniojournal/cranialbonemobility.htm

 

[werd]

i don't think skull bones move. well, in infants they can... but probably shouldn't

 

[FinchHead]

Hmm, there are still people who think OMM is real? Even if the skull bones move, why the hell would that effect anything?

 

[Pansit]

Hmm, there are still people who think OMM is real? Even if the skull bones move, why the hell would that effect anything?

OMM is definitely real. The majority of techniques are simple and definitely makes complete sense in regards to the musculoskeletal system. That is not the question. It's cranial that is debated. I for one will not believe in it, until I have seen evidenced-base proof. As physicians we are trained to approach medicine that way.

 

[Pianodoc]

From Dr. Weil's website regarding a question about the difference between MD and DO:

As you may know, I'm a great advocate of osteopathic manipulative technique (OMT), especially of cranial therapy. I've found it extremely useful for a wide range of problems, from headaches to hyperactivity in children, disturbed sleep cycles and asthma. It works through very gentle pressure applied with the hands to the head. The aim is to free up restrictions in the movement of the cranial bones and allow the subtle natural rhythms of the central nervous system to express themselves in a balanced fashion.

Unless you're specifically looking for manipulative therapy, I doubt very much that switching to a D.O will make much difference in your medical care. Don't confuse osteopathy with chiropractic. Although both use manipulation, chiropractors do not get the same medical training and do not have the same medical privileges that osteopaths do. To find a physician in your area trained in osteopathic manipulation look on the American Academy of Osteopathy's Web site (www.academyofosteopathy.org).

Andrew Weil, M.D.

 

[DocRawk]

http://www.cranialsubluxations.com/interior_view_of_base_of_skull.htm

fair use, educational

As a pre-med, I'm not sold one way or the other on cranial yet, but a chiropractic website is one basket I will never put any eggs in...

 

[medhacker]

Call it whatever you want

Something does move when you do the cranial rhythm thing, believe you me, something moves, take it from a non-believer, I felt it

 

[Iquitos]

skull + vice= bones moved