Do skull bones move?

[Old brain]

Originally posted by Boomer
For those of you who've had practice in cranial, a funny story:

Maybe I should write this story up all scientific-like, and submit it to the AOA. Maybe that would be "scientific enough" (ha ha ha) to disprove cranial quackery.

Sounds a little hoakey to me.

What would make them teach it if it wasn't so?
Why do they think the cranial bones move, whats the history behind it that made them decide to teach it? There must be something to it. What made them think that cranial bones move?

I discovered it on my own by hearing it, in a similar fashion to the experiment I posted on the last post of the previous page. I did this independently without being taught the first thing about skull bones. I actually thought the skull was one bone at the time and had to look up the physiology. I heard the crack or click of the movements of the bones from that considered there was pressure and movement at the base of the skull and looked up the muscles and the bones to see what it was that was moving and why.

I had formed my theory in concept first, then I discovered the physiology that fit like a glove to the concept of the theory.(1997)

So that's how I came up with the idea that the bones of the skull move.

Where did they get the idea to teach this movement? Does anyone know the history behind this?

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[Fermata]

Whenever I go to the optometrist he measures to see if the distance between my eyes has increased any(to see if my brain is expanding).

It's gotton 1 mm bigger since last time(w00000000t!!11111)

 

[PACtoDOC]

That yamning thing is a load of crap. Did you ever stop to think that you were changing the length of the eustachian tube which caused an air release? That is what you are hearing!!

 

[Old brain]

Originally posted by Old brain

With my theory, I provided a reason for why the movement might exist.

I think it warrents further study.

Here's a little experiment you might try

This might be done the best the first time its tried so read it through before you try it for best results. According to my theory the yawn manipulates the skull bones, so if the bones shift from the yawn action, they will be shifted and a second attempt may be unable to shift them because they are already in the shifted position.

I want for you to listen for the sound of the bones moving so first
open the jaw wide and hold it in that position so that it is not moving and you don't confuse any sounds that the jaw might make because its not moving.

Second take a deep breath through the mouth as deep as you can and listen while you are breathing in, listen intently for a sound like a "crack"

It may not be the most scientific of methods but I cannot think of any other reason for the cracking sound other than the movement of the skull bones. When the jaw is open wide before the deep breath, there is no sound from the eustacian tubes. during the deep breath.

The sound, if you hear it is a clue to expanding our paradigm you can ignore it or dissmiss it, but you can't un-hear it after youv'e heard it.

Yes, I thought about it.
I'm talking about a crack sound, not a pop that can be heard when the pressure in the eustacian tubes is nullified, its not an air sound, its solid click clack crack clunk snapping sort of sound.
The eustachian tubes don't make the sound that I have heard and am talking about although I do realize the eustacian tubes make noise.

 

[PACtoDOC]

Well the discussion is over then. I had no idea you were the authority on eustachian tube noise. Do you realize that there are calclifcations in all the tendons and ligaments, and even in the BONES in the middle ear? But I am glad you ruled the eustachian noise out, because it shows your narrow sightedness. You truly have a calling as a manipulative specialist DO, and as a future AOA leader.!!

 

[Cowboy DO]

Ok, lets every one just take a deep breath......In with the good.....out with the bad. Its up and down, and circular....like a merry-go-round.

 

[Old brain]

I'm not an authority on eustacian tube noises. I tried to find a way to eliminate the eustacian tube noises. And the mandible noises. While a full yawn involves the eustacian tubes, as does swallowing, a simple deep breath does not seem to. When I first heard it I had to sort through a lot of sounds, I simplified it by eliminating the jaw and eustacian sounds you should only hear the air going in. I tried to eliminate the other noises if this makes me narrow sighted then consider that the sight must be narrowed to better focus on the details.

LOL a future AOA leader?
I should get a Nobel prize.

 

[PACtoDOC]

Listen Brain,

Your little 5th grade idea was keen, but you are not taking into account all the aspects of anatomy that you aren't equiped to understand at your level. When you take in a deep breath with your jaw open, your hypopharynx and nasopharyn both expand. Did you realize that the eustachian tubes move with these structures? Its the reason that you can hear similar noises when you swallow. You are probably just interpreting the sound differently because your mouth is wide freaking open when you do it. I am not putting down your idea, I am just putting down your conclusions. To hear you say "that is why I eliminated the eustacian tube noise" makes you sound like you are certain your tubes were not the cause. You simply cannot know that.

 

[bigmuny]

I don't know PACtoDOC this new evidence seems rather compelling to me. A little more anecdotal evidence like this and I might be convinced.

 

[Old brain]

Originally posted by PACtoDOC
Listen Brain,

Your little 5th grade idea was keen,

thanks (I like it to be simple)

I've heard the sounds of the eustacians, during road travel trough the elevations, in jets with pressurized cabins, even from wind or strong changes in air pressure. I've heard my ears "pop" Iv'e felt the difference in air pressure when it does, Ive heard the difference in the way the ear interprets sound when the pressure changes in the middle ear. The eustation tubes open for a short duration then close, once the air pressure is balanced thats it, they don't keep opening and closing which is why people chew gum on flights or after to open them and adjust the pressure by swallowing.

Hey I'm the first to admit this is anecdotal but the eustacian tubes are too small of a feature to make the big sound that I'm refering to. I've heard the eustacian tubes make noise when changing pressures but not the same noise.

But hey if nobody else hears it or has heard these bone moving sounds what difference does it make what I hear. I came up with the same conclusion that Sutherland did, I just went about it a different way at a different time without his knowledge.

 

[BamaAlum]

What would make them teach it if it wasn't so?

So they can have weekend courses to teach it to any and everyone. They can charge huge amounts of money for their courses and their graduates can go on to bill huge amounts for something that doesn't work. Its medical economics at its worse. Do you think they would teach it if it wasn't billable?

 

[Non-Trad DO]

Popping sounds when I yawn,.......hmmmm... TMJ problem?

 

[Old brain]

A fall on the coccyx or a pelvic distortion because of a difference in leg lengths can malposition the sacrum within the iliac bones which in turn could offset the occiput and there onwards the sphenoid, the temporal or the parietal bones. If uncorrected, other cranial bones such as the frontal, zygomatic or maxillary can be affected. In time, cranial nerves can be disturbed as they pass through foramina (holes) in some of the bones and drainage from venous sinuses, such as that running along the inner surface of the parietal sagittal suture, can be impaired.

I got that from here...

http://www.positivehealth.com/permit/Articles/Bodywork/goodman.htm

more on bone movement can be found there.

nice view, I would have liked to have seen this with the temporal bones included as well.

 

[Old brain]

This was interesting...

To test his theory, Dr. Sutherland filled a skull with dry beans to which he added water. This caused the skull bones to move along the suture lines and, ultimately, to disarticulate.

http://www.upledger.com/news/9509b.htm

***While CranioSacral Therapy and cranial osteopathy have differences, they are linked in history by two osteopaths who trusted their observations and continued undaunted on their quest to prove their theories.***

 

[PACtoDOC]

Brain,

You aren't speaking of any new information. This is same old BS they have been pounding into us for years in manip class. The only problem with it is that there is no evidence of it. I realize you may think the source you gave is credible, but there seriously has never been even one credible source to show the connection between the sacrum and cranial bones' motion. It is hokey at best, and ludacrious at worst!! I can pull up a source for any questionable treatment including using urine for chelation, but that does not mean the source is credible or the study was worthy of mention. Less than a handful of DO's you will ever meet will tell you that they believe in the cranial method. The vast majority not only disbelieve it but can't even feel any motion.

 

[Old brain]

I find it interesting and a lot of it was new to me

I went to ...

http://www.osteodoc.com/sutherland.html

I decided to email Mark E. Rosen, D.O
and asked :

I'm very interested in the movement of skull bones and
was wondering what type of evidence you might have to
support it.


Just a shot in the dark I suppose but I'll bring it if I get an intesting response.

 

[Dr JPH]

Originally posted by PACtoDOC
Less than a handful of DO's you will ever meet will tell you that they believe in the cranial method.

It may be a few more than that.

I have been busy lately, but trying to keep up with at least reading the posts.

I urge those of you who are still doubtful about cranial bone movement to dig up the research that NASA has done regarding noninvasive intracranial pressure measurement. I believe they used the same doppler machinery that was used in osteopathic studies.

Many of you have discredited several studies I cited because they were from osteopathic journals, so I figure if I gave you a more credible source, you would be happy.

I am going to talk to a professor this week to get a copy of the research and hopefully post it as soon as I can, but in the meantime, try an online search.

 

[Old brain]

I did a bit of a search
I found a couple of things from NASA...

Ballard RE, M Wilson, DE Watenpaugh, AR Hargens, LM Shuer, J Cantrell, and WT Yost. Noninvasive measurement of intracranial volume and pressure using ultrasound. American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics Life Sciences and Space Medicine Conference, Book of Abstracts, pp. 76-77, Houston, TX, 3-6 March 1996.

Space motion sickness and headaches are a significant problem among astronauts during spaceflight. Seventy-three percent of Shuttle astronauts exhibit symptoms of space motion sickness (Jennings et al., 1993), which may persist through the first three days of flight and have an adverse effect on crew performance and mission progress. Although the etiology of space motion sickness still remains unclear, the symptoms may result, in part, from alterations of intracranial circulation and pressure. In a Joint NASA/NIH Workshop on Research in the Microgravity Environment (20-21 January 1994), intracranial pressure (ICP) was identified as one of the most important parameters to investigate for problems of astronauts in space and for several diseases of patients on Earth. However, current techniques for monitoring ICP are invasive and thus impractical for use in space.

On Earth, abnormally-elevated ICP occurs in 50-75% of patients with severe head trauma (Miller et al., 1992). In cases where ICP increases to values above 20 mmHg, a 95% mortality rate has been observed. Secondary brain injury due to head trauma can therefore be greatly reduced by the prompt detection and treatment of elevated ICP. A noninvasive technique for monitoring ICP would aid not only the initial assessment of increasing ICP, but could also monitor the efficacy of treatment over an extended period of time without the high risk of infection and cost associated with invasive techniques.

Although the skull is often assumed to be a rigid container with a constant volume, sensitive measurements indicate that the skull expands with increases in ICP (Heisey and Adams; 1993, Heifetz and Weiss, 1981). Recent work in our laboratory has investigated the use of ultrasound to measure non-invasively these slight changes in intracranial volume that occur with changes in ICP. A new instrument based on a pulsed phase-lock loop concept has been developed to measure the ultrasonic phase velocity accurately in condensed matter (Yost and Cantrell, 1992). The instrument transmits a 500kHz ultrasonic tone burst through the cranium via a transducer placed on the head. The ultrasonic wave passes through the cranial cavity, reflects off the inner surface of the opposite side of the skull, and is received by the same transducer. The device then uses a phase comparison technique to quantify distance across the skull. Sensitivity of this method for measurement of intracranial distance (ICD) equals approximately 0.1?m.

We used the noninvasive ultrasound technique to measure distance from the forehead skin surface to the occipital bone during acute head-down tilt (HDT). We hypothesized that this distance would increase with recumbency and HDT relative to head-up position due to elevation of ICP. Seven healthy subjects (ages 26-53) underwent the following tilt angles: 90? upright, 30?, 0?, -6?, -10?, -6?, 0?, 30? and 90?. Each angle was maintained for 1 min. Average path length from forehead to occipital bone increased 1.038 ? 0.207 mm (mean ? standard error) at 10? HDT relative to 90? upright values (Torikoshi et al., 1995). When the protocol was repeated using external compression over the ultrasound transducer to minimize changes in cutaneous and subcutaneous tissues during tilt, maximum ICD increase was 0.166 ? 0.038 mm. Application of external compression greatly reduces, but probably did not totally eliminate, cutaneous pooling between the transducer and frontal bone. Therefore, we have since developed technique and hardware modifications to eliminate extracranial tissue contributions to ICD measurements.

To establish the relationship between intracranial diameter and known changes in ICP, we studied two fresh cadavera (< 24 hrs. post-mortem), one female (age 83) and one male (age 93). Causes of death were not ICP-related. A ventricular cannula was inserted into a frontal horn of the lateral ventricle through a burr hole in the frontal bone. Direct ICP measurements were made via a fiber-optic, transducer-tipped catheter (Camino Laboratories, San Diego, CA) inserted into the subdural space through a separate burr hole. An ultrasound transducer was then secured with an elastic band to the side of the head. ICD was continuously monitored while ICP was altered in a stepwise fashion by infusion/removal of saline from the lateral ventricle. Changes in ICD, or distance from one side of the skull to the other, were calculated over the last 10 sec at each pressure level. In both cadavera, ICD increased linearly (ICD = 0.003(ICP) - 0.016, r=0.91) with graded elevation of ICP, such that an ICP change of 15 mmHg caused a skull expansion of 0.029 mm. Magnitudes of cranial expansion observed in these cadavera were similar to those reported in the literature for cats (Heisey and Adams, 1993) and our results supported qualitative findings of Hiefetz and Weiss (1981) in humans. Although only two cadavera were studied, these results clearly indicate that the ultrasound technique is capable of measuring the small changes in ICD resulting from changes (positive and negative) in ICP.

As stated previously, we have developed a new technique for quantifying changes in distance across the skull irrespective of changes in skin thickness. To evaluate the technique, four subjects underwent a tilt protocol similar to that outlined above. Briefly, subjects were secured in the upright posture to a tilt table, and an ultrasound transducer was secured to the side of the head using an elastic bandage. ICD was continuously monitored for one minute of each tilt angle: 90? HUT, -10? HDT, and 90? HUT (tilting from upright to -10? is estimated to increase ICP approximately 15 mmHg; Murthy et al., 1992). The change in ICD measured with our modified technique averaged 0.025 ? 0.008 mm at 10? HDT relative to upright values. Magnitudes of skull expansion observed in this pilot study agree well with results of our cadaver study. While further hardware developments are necessary to optimize the technique, our investigations to date support pulsed phase-lock loop ultrasound as a viable technique for measuring changes in intracranial dimensions and for monitoring ICP on Earth and in space.

ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS

We thank Karen Hutchinson, David Chang, and Dr. Gary Heit for technical assistance. Supported by NASA Ames Commercial Technology Office grant 307-51-12-12 and NASA grants 199-26-12-34 and 199-14-12-04.

REFERENCES


Heisey and Adams, Neurosurg. 33:869-877, 1993.
Hiefetz and Weiss, J. Neurosurg. 55:811-2, 1981.
Jennings et al., Aviat. Space Environ. Med. 64:423(27), 1993.
Miller et al., J Neurotrauma 9:S317-26, 1992.
Murthy et al., Physiologist 35:S184-5, 1992.
Torikoshi et al., J. Grav. Physiol., in press, 1995.
Yost and Cantrell, J. Acoust. Soc. Am. 91:1456-68, 1992.


I got that from here...

http://spacephysiology.arc.nasa.gov/abstracts/abstracts_96.html

************************************

Also

The principle is based upon detecting skull movements which occur with fluctuations in ICP.

Although the skull is often assumed to be a rigid container with a constant volume, we and others have demonstrated that the skull moves on the order of a few ?m in association with arterial pressure (systolic/diastolic) and changes in ICP pulsations.

from here...

http://www-nesb.larc.nasa.gov/NNWG/VOL8.2/TASKS/ARC/arc82_1.html

*****************************************

The principle is based upon detecting skull movements which occur with fluctuations in ICP (see figure 2). Although the skull is often assumed to be a rigid container with a constant volume, we and others have demonstrated that the skull moves on the order of a few ?m in association with changes in ICP.

from here...

http://www-nesb.larc.nasa.gov/NNWG/VOL7.1/TASKS/ARC/arc71_1.html

***********************************

 

[Seaglass]

So you're calling a change in diameter of <.5mm proof that skull bones move? And that this change can be palpated? PUH-LEASE.

I don't know anything about their technique beyond the brief details, but the difference they're measuring may certainly be explained by other changes besides expanding skull (They admit they had problems with tissue swelling). And to say that this difference is clinically useful or apparent is bologna.

C

 

[PACtoDOC]

I have to agree with the last poster! How can anyone palpate a change in something even as small as 1mm? And then once you convince everyone that the movement occurs, how do you relate it to any real treatment? Its simply insane and makes us DO's look like crazy nut cases.

These studies were basically like every other cranial study I have ever been shown. 7 patients, 2 cadavers, and you call that a reliable study? Could you get a drug approved past the FDA with numbers like this?

 

[Old brain]

I decided to email Mark E. Rosen, D.O
and asked :

I'm very interested in the movement of skull bones and
was wondering what type of evidence you might have to
support it.

he responded:



Basically there is no evidence to support sutural fusion. Original
research
was done by Todd and Lyon (physical anthropologists) in the 1920s,
looking
for a way to age specimens based upon degree of sutural fusion. The
original research essentially found that it was impossible to age
skulls
using these indicators. Their research is cited by Gray's anatomy as
proof
that the sutures fuse, but the actual data does not support this
conclusion
at all. All subsequent papers citing this data also seemed to have
never
read the original paper... It is quite typical of modern myth making.

There is plenty of research that supports articular flexibility in the
boney
cranium... Contact the Cranial Academy for a research bibliography.


http://www.cranialacademy.org


I went to the link and couldn't find any useful information to further the quest.

I doubt if I'll write them snail mail as I'm kinda lazy that way but here's the address:

The Cranial Academy
8202 Clearvista Parkway #9-D
Indianapolis, IN 46256

If someone wants to write them before boning out tuition and ask for evidence, go for it.

 

[Dr JPH]

Originally posted by Boomer
Tell that to the PhDs who teach anatomy at EVERY American medical school (DO and MD alike).

If the sutures do actually fuse (and are not connected by non-osseaous tissue) then why is it so easy to disarticulate a skull?

 

[Old brain]

Here's a slide show...

http://www.icnr.com/prof/cranialacademy/2003annualconference.html

It shows a lot of teeth mostly (reminds me of Quiznos) but it does have a few slides involving bone movement. Well, see for yourself acrobat reader is pretty common (pdf file).

 

[Old brain]

Why do we have muscles on top of our heads?

 

[PACtoDOC]

Sorry Brain, but any presentation that tries to sell nutritional supplements in addition to its main message is looney!! And how about that kid in the first picture with the obviously malformed jaw? Where is his "after" picture? There are only 2 other before and after pictures in the whole set, and one is a guy in his 30's or so who shows no change other than skin color. The young girl before and after simply shows that she has aged!! There are millions of people who have had orthodontic braces, and how many of these people suffer from supposed cranial issues? So yes, I saw for myself and this is simply not convincing.

 

[Old brain]

A little more about the sutures of the temporal bone, the shared foramen, the focus on the styloid process as a key component.


SUTURES & ARTICULATION
The temporals present a highly delicate, ballerina ?on ?points suture with the zygomae; a rolling overlap, or squamous suture with the parietals; a modified and robust interdigitated suture with the occiput; a harmonic (plain) suture with the sphenoid; and an open no contact border with the condylar and basilar portions of the occiput at the cranial base.
The temporals are the most superficial of the four bones that meet the pterion. They are one of three bones that form the asterion.
Each temporal articulates with a maximum of five bones: sphenoid, occiput, parietal, zygomae and the fronal.

DETAILED ANATOMY & MUSCULATURE
The temporals hold the organ of hearing and balance in the inner ear. The CN7 (facial nerve) weaves through the petrous portion, making two right angles. The CN8 (vestibulocochlear nerve) passes through the same foramana, the internal acoustic meatus.
Additional temporal landmarks worth noting include the foramen lacerum (shared with the sphenoid), the jugular foramen (shared with the occiput), the temporomandibular fossa and its saddle joint architecture, and the styloid process (whose attachments form a small but important ingredient in temporal motility)....

I got that from here...

http://www.joanmailing.com/tmjd.htm

This is the first article that I have found to relate the styloid process to the motility of the temporal bone similar my own theory of temporal movement.

 

[DD214_DOC]

If the bones weren't fused, then why do the different plates not fall apart when someone dies and begins to decompose? Obviously something would have to "hold" them close together that would decompose along with it.

I figured the link I posted regarding the discovery of the proteins that aid in the fusion of the plates would have ended this stupid argument.

 

[Old brain]

Originally posted by JKDMed


I figured the link I posted regarding the discovery of the proteins that aid in the fusion of the plates would have ended this stupid argument.

STANFORD, Calif. - Stanford University Medical Center researchers have identified a protein responsible for ensuring correct skull growth in newborn mice. The protein, called Noggin, inhibits fusion of bony plates in the skull until developmentally appropriate. The scientists hope that Noggin may one day replace surgery as a way to treat premature skull fusion in infants.

From your article, the protein identified INHIBITS or prevents skull fusion.


A point for motility I figure

 

[Blackbeard]

Im a second year student, and having just finished the cranial OMM exam and lectures, i cant say im buying the operators ability to detect this motion. And neither do the people who wrote this journal article.

Man Ther. 2004 Feb;9(1):22-9. Related Articles, Links


Inter- and intraexaminer reliability in palpation of the "primary respiratory mechanism" within the "cranial concept".

Sommerfeld P, Kaider A, Klein P.

Department of Medical Computer Sciences at the University of Vienna, Austria. [email protected]

Inevitable subjectivity makes interexaminer reliability of manual assessment procedures a special matter of concern. The cranial concept (CC), one aspect of osteopathy, deals with very subtle changes that have to be palpated. One of the main principles of the CC is the primary respiratory mechanism (PRM), which is hypothesized to be a palpable physiological phenomenon that occurs in rhythmic cycles, called flexion- and extension-phase, which are independent from cardiac and respiratory rates. Palpation of the PRM is one of the first steps in assessment within the CC. An inter- and intraexaminer reliability study design for repeated measures was used in this study. Forty nine healthy subjects were palpated simultaneously twice, once at the head and once at the pelvis. PRM-frequency (f), the mean duration of the flexion phase and the mean ratio of flexion- to extension-phase were used as the main outcome measures. Inter- and intraexaminer reliability and correlations to the respiratory rates were analysed for all three parameters. Inter- as well as intraexaminer agreement could not be described beyond chance agreement, as the range within the 95% limits of agreement (e.g. for f=6.6 cycles/90 s) for all cases resembled the total range of values (e.g. for f=7 cycles/90 s) that were produced. A significant effect of the examiners' respiration was found for both examiners at the pelvis (P=0.004 for one examiner, P <0.0001 for the other examiner), and for one examiner only at the head (P=0.0017). No correlation could be found for the subjects' respiratory rates. In conclusion, PRM-rates could not be palpated reliably and under certain conditions were influenced by the examiners' respiratory rates. These results do not support the hypotheses behind the PRM. The role of PRM palpation for clinical decision making and the models explaining the PRM should therefore be rethought.

PMID: 14723858 [PubMed - in process]

 

[Old brain]

Here's a personal experience account brought about by asking do skull bones move...

hummer
Member
Posts: 1003
From:
Registered: Feb 2000
posted 03-11-2004 10:29 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes they do.....I liked the post from Debbie T, it explains it, to my belief, and experience....
I get the plates in my head adjusted all of time....I go to an Osteopath.....I have a brain injury...my skull is pretty screwed up....

The doctor talks to me and tells me things...but the article, Debbie wrote of, really makes me see, for the first time, what the Doctor has tried to explain to me....

that my brain is some times starving....from lack of those cerebrospinal fluids the article spoke of....When he works on my head....sometimes I can hear...from the inside of me...as the fluid begins to move, again....it is a very strange sensation...the difference in how your mind feels....there is an instant relief....I guess along the lines of getting a drink of water when you are really thirsty....

I don't actually ever really feel the plates in my head moving...but they have been doing that to me for years and years.....

Thank you, Debbie, for posting the article...
Blessings to us all....
Hummer

I got that post from here...
http://neuro-mancer.mgh.harvard.edu/ubb/Forum107/HTML/008966.html

 

[subtlewonder]

q

 

[PACtoDOC]

Thanks for making our argument Subtle!! The fact is, many alternative therapies are known to work without a scientific basis, but none of them are taught to the extent that Cranial is in DO schools. We literally spend about 3 months of Cranial, whereas accupunture was never even discussed in our program. Allopathic programs should no more teach accupunture for 3 months than DO programs teaching Cranial for 3 months. I would be in favor of a minimal philosophical lecture on Cranial that allows one the basics of the principles involved if they wish to expand their knowledge on it later. That is how most alternative therapies are taught in most schools....a cursory survey.

 

[Dr JPH]

Originally posted by PACtoDOC
We literally spend about 3 months of Cranial, .

At PCOM we do about 4 hours of cranial - that includes lecture and lab. The school provides continuing education for those students who want to expand their knowledge base in OCF.

 

[carpe diem]

Not convinced that the bones move as much as the cranial rhthym might suggest they move. I was (maybe still) a skeptic but I did feel a definite motion (pressure, something) that was NOT in sync with regular respiration. I surmised after lab that what I was feeling was blood flow through superficial veins but after looking at the anatomy I am not sure. But I did feel something. And when I have a sinus headache, I can feel the pressure change when I palpate deeply around my frontal and anterior ethmoidal cells.


Carpe

 

[DireWolf]

Even if they do move, which I doubt, the movement is so miniscule that any medical benefit would be negligible.

 

[Old brain]

In the words of Rudolph Virchow, the highly honored German pathologist, "Absence of proof does not necessarily demonstrate proof of absence."

Research And Observations That Support The Existence Of A Craniosacral System Upledger


by JOHN E. UPLEDGER Copyright ? 1995 by UI Enterprises


I was searching around and I found this. I don't think this one has been brought to the table here so I thought I'd bring it. Its a bit long with a long list of references. It can be found here...

http://www.upledger.com/news/p-mon.htm

 

[Dr JPH]

Originally posted by JKDMed
I like DOs and all, but the idea that FUSED BONES move is ****ing stupid.

Interesting that a premed has such a strong opinion

 

[bigmuny]

Originally posted by Old brain
In the words of Rudolph Virchow, the highly honored German pathologist, "Absence of proof does not necessarily demonstrate proof of absence."

Research And Observations That Support The Existence Of A Craniosacral System Upledger


by JOHN E. UPLEDGER Copyright ? 1995 by UI Enterprises


I was searching around and I found this. I don't think this one has been brought to the table here so I thought I'd bring it. Its a bit long with a long list of references. It can be found here...

http://www.upledger.com/news/p-mon.htm

Do you know who Upledger is? Look into it.

 

[Old brain]

Originally posted by bigmuny
Do you know who Upledger is? Look into it.

Why don't you tell me?
see I'm looking into it

 

[docslytherin]

from the cranial academy website:

"Craniosacral therapy" was developed by John Upledger, DO, in the 1970s. He studied Cranial Osteopathy as part of his osteopathic medical training, and then founded a system of therapy called "craniosacral therapy." It is defined as "a gentle, hands-on method of evaluating and enhancing the function of the craniosacral system - the physiological body system comprised of the membranes and cerebrospinal fluid that surrounds and protects the brain and spinal cord."13 Dr. Upledger states, "The requirements to do craniosacral therapy were dedication, compassion and sensitivity ... not organic chemistry, neurology, materia medica or other science courses."14 The Upledger Institute trains licensed health care practitioners "including osteopaths, medical doctors, doctors of chiropractic, doctors of oriental medicine, naturopathic physicians, psychiatric specialties, psychologists, dentists, nurses, physical therapists, occupational therapists, acupuncturists, massage therapists and other professional body workers."

 

[bigmuny]

Ahh, someone found the answer. I'm surprised Old Brain, you being all cranial gungho and all, that you had not ever heard of Dr. Upledger. Obviously an unbiased source of info, and a known visionary and powerhouse in the research community. I wonder how much money he pulls in peddling his nonsense. At least he admits you don't need to know any science(actually probably frowned upon) to practice cranial, which is good because it isn't.

 

[Larry Renal]

I am of the feeling that we as students should be open minded to EVERY treatment modality, and not just accept from professors/literature what is TRUE or REAL or THE BEST. Just because I cant feel cranial motion (and I can't--not even close) dosen't mean it's not there. My big problem with it is the way a lot of these guys talk about it. For example, one prof said that i needed to "clear the seaweed" from my classmate's head. Then he placed his hand a foot above her head and said he said that he could feel the seaweed restricting her motion. When another classmate presented to the clinic with a drug hypersensitivity rash, another prof asked her what was going on internally with her that allowed the rash to manifest itself. Yes, we need to be open minded, but this crazy talk is not really helping anyone believe in cranial osteopathy (or a lot of OMM for that matter).

 

[stomper627]

I am a skeptic of cranial and thought that the 2 months of LECOM cranial education was a waste of my time....although it did provide plenty of nap time. Now, do I believe it doesnt exist? I dont know. Dont care. I didnt feel it, and was annoyed when the professors tell us that its ok not to feel it....that it takes "most people extensive classes to feel it", then about 85% of the class claims they feel it (hmm.....perhaps just wanting to please the profs????).
The issue I have is that last year during cranial I actually had an abscessed tooth, and was in quite a bit of pain. My partner asked our guru to see what he could find on me, and just stated that I had a normal rhythm. Well, when I told him that I was scheduled for a root canal the next morning for the abscess, he just shrugged his shoulders and left, never having answered the question. I mean he should have felt it, right?
My real question is IF it does exist, what effect would it have on collision sports? I mean many of us have purposely put our heads in hundreds of violent collisions and received no harm. If the skull bones DO move, wouldnt it change the dynamic forces for every hit? Much like a chaos theory?
stomper

 

[Old brain]

open sutures (inhale)

closed sutures (exhale)

The arrows seem to point out the direction of micro movement.
This science has been developed through study, research and clinical application over the last fifty years by Dr. M.B. DeJarnette.

from here...

http://www.optimumclinic.com/w_cranial_motion.html

 

[stomper627]

Thats great oldbrain....but you have yet to answer my question regarding collision sports, such as hockey, football, rugby, wrestling, boxing, etc....why wouldnt the movement of the cranial bones effect the blow that is sustained to the head, causing extensive damage to the bones, brain, mater, etc? I mean if the bones move, they would not always be in the best position to absorb the blow that is directed to it.
Please stop being a troll, posting these links, and answer my question.
stomper

 

[Old brain]

Originally posted by stomper627
Thats great oldbrain....but you have yet to answer my question regarding collision sports, such as hockey, football, rugby, wrestling, boxing, etc....why wouldnt the movement of the cranial bones effect the blow that is sustained to the head, causing extensive damage to the bones, brain, mater, etc? I mean if the bones move, they would not always be in the best position to absorb the blow that is directed to it.
Please stop being a troll, posting these links, and answer my question.
stomper

I'm not really sure I understand your question. If cranial bones move then they probably do absorb some of the blow and distributes the impact. If they do move they don't move much. They don't roam about the head. I don't think most of them move much at all, but I think the bones that do move the most would be the temporal bones, now I don't know if it has to do with the movement of the bones but I suspect it does that if you get hit in the mastoid process you go down while a similar force to the forehead might just make you mad.
Is it because the temporals move more affecting the csf pressure more, jostling the brain?
Could be.
If you get hit with a "stone cold stunner" the mandible jambs into the fossa of the temporal bones, it's the same thing, bam your out for the count, well you don't have to worry about the count cause you won't hear it. I don't think the bones move a whole lot on the top of the skull its underneath where I think most of the action is.

I hope this helps to answer your question, if not, try a different question and replace the above with I dunno.

 

[Old brain]

Originally posted by bigmuny
Anyone know if after blunt force trauma to the head, does the skull just crack and crush at the site of impact or does it bust open along supposedly open suture lines?

I think this is a good question that has gone on unanswered.

My guess is that it would probably depend on the site of impact.

For example a blow over a sinus might fracture the outer layer of the bone, if the suture of the bone was interdigitated and thicker it might also absorb a lot of the blow, but how could you tell? When I say interdigitated, I mean it like when you put your hands in front of you and cross the fingers, each fits in the other hand. The fingers of the bones fit into each other. The advantage of the fingers is that each is thin and can be more flexible for that reason, so they are not as likely to break. When forced, I can only imagine that these "fingers" of bone work with a dominoe type effect, in other words the force is absorbed by the first finger closest to the source, that bends or gives until it is pushed against the next finger (on an ajoining bone) which gives or bends until it hits the next finger back on the bone originally traumatized, etc, etc until the force is absorbed completely, or all of the fingers break, so I figure that it is likely that the sutures would absorb the bulk of the shock and that they are built to be able to do so.

The above only applies to the interdigitated sutures not other types and since its only a guess. I too would like to hear from others on this.

 

[Old brain]

Did you ever notice in your studies of skull bones that the bones are mostly paired? Thats not so astonishing in itself, but what is interesting, is that they usually in most people develop differently.

One side is usually dominant, compared to the other with noticeable differences. The articulations may be wider on one side, the foramen may be larger, the styloid process may be a quarter of an inch longer on one side. The ridges and bumps are thicker and stronger reenforcing one side more that the other.

The only reason that I can see for this to happen is because one side moves more than the other side.

The side that does not move, is restricted, underdeveloped and generally weaker than the side that does.

So my question is:

Why would one side develop more than the other in most but not all people if the bones did not move?

 

[medic8m]

Originally posted by stomper627
I am a skeptic of cranial and thought that the 2 months of LECOM cranial education was a waste of my time....although it did provide plenty of nap time. Now, do I believe it doesnt exist? I dont know. Dont care. I didnt feel it, and was annoyed when the professors tell us that its ok not to feel it....that it takes "most people extensive classes to feel it", then about 85% of the class claims they feel it (hmm.....perhaps just wanting to please the profs????).
The issue I have is that last year during cranial I actually had an abscessed tooth, and was in quite a bit of pain. My partner asked our guru to see what he could find on me, and just stated that I had a normal rhythm. Well, when I told him that I was scheduled for a root canal the next morning for the abscess, he just shrugged his shoulders and left, never having answered the question. I mean he should have felt it, right?
My real question is IF it does exist, what effect would it have on collision sports? I mean many of us have purposely put our heads in hundreds of violent collisions and received no harm. If the skull bones DO move, wouldnt it change the dynamic forces for every hit? Much like a chaos theory?
stomper

Dont feel to bad, craniosacral therapy earned its own section on the Quackwatch website.

Here is a link from PubMed

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8090842&dopt=Abstract

 

[Old brain]

That study was ten years ago, I think it was an example or two of how adept the people were. It didn't really have much on wether the bones moved or not and anyway it concluded...

"Further studies are needed to verify whether craniosacral motion exists, examine the interpretations of craniosacral assessment, determine the reliability of all aspects of the assessment, and examine whether craniosacral therapy is an effective treatment."

that it was not conclusive.

It does however show that we are scientifically beginning to explore the possibility.