Do skull bones move?

[Old brain]

Originally posted by medic8m
Dont feel to bad, craniosacral therapy earned its own section on the Quackwatch website.

Here is the section on the Quackwatch website.

http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/QA/osteo.html

This is what they say about the movement of skull bones...

"The theory underlying craniosacral therapy is erroneous because the cranial bones fuse by the end of adolescence and no research has ever demonstrated that manual manipulation can move the individual bones [17]."

according to [17],
This study that has to do with the motility of skull bones, is entirely based on the movement of one joint (sphenoid/occipital).

Mostly PRM (the Primary Respiratory Mechanism) and CR (Cranial Rhythm) are the subject of this alleged quackery. These are being taught today in class if you study to be a DO.

It is an interesting study though I wish they would have looked at the temporal bones.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[stomper627]

Originally posted by Old brain
That study was ten years ago, I think it was an example or two of how adept the people were. It didn't really have much on wether the bones moved or not and anyway it concluded...

Man....seriously....just shut up already.....
Here is some references you have cited....look at the friggin dates.....Id have to say 10 years is pretty good consider what you can come up with.....

1 TRIANCE, Edward. Osteopathy, Thorsons, 1986.
2 STILL, Andrew Taylor. The Philosophy and Mechanical Principles of Osteopathy, Hudson Kimberly Publ, 1902 USA.
3 SUTHERLAND, William Garner. The Cranial Bowl, 1939.
4 MAGOUN, Harold I. Osteopathy in the Cranial Field, 3rd Ed 1976.
5 DE JARNETTE, Major Bertrand. Cranial Technique, Nebraska, 1979-1980.
6 UPLEDGER, John E. & VREDEVOOGD, Jon D. Craniosacral Therapy, Chicago, 1983 + others.
7 KIMBERLY, Paul E. Cranial osteopathy and its application. Lecture Des Moines Still College of Osteopathy and Surgery, October 23 1948.
8 GOODMAN, J. Chairman's Letter, Cranial Osteopathic Association Newsletter, Summer 1996.
9 DE JARNETTE, M.B. Lecture notes and personal communication on SOT
10 SUTHERLAND, Adah S. and WALES. Anne L. Collected writings of William Gamer Sutherland 1914-1954, The Sutherland Cranial Teaching Foundation USA, 1967.


stomper

 

[Old brain]

Originally posted by stomper627
Man....seriously....just shut up already.....
Here is some references you have cited....look at the friggin dates.....Id have to say 10 years is pretty good consider what you can come up with.....

1 TRIANCE, Edward. Osteopathy, Thorsons, 1986.
2 STILL, Andrew Taylor. The Philosophy and Mechanical Principles of Osteopathy, Hudson Kimberly Publ, 1902 USA.
3 SUTHERLAND, William Garner. The Cranial Bowl, 1939.
4 MAGOUN, Harold I. Osteopathy in the Cranial Field, 3rd Ed 1976.
5 DE JARNETTE, Major Bertrand. Cranial Technique, Nebraska, 1979-1980.
6 UPLEDGER, John E. & VREDEVOOGD, Jon D. Craniosacral Therapy, Chicago, 1983 + others.
7 KIMBERLY, Paul E. Cranial osteopathy and its application. Lecture Des Moines Still College of Osteopathy and Surgery, October 23 1948.
8 GOODMAN, J. Chairman's Letter, Cranial Osteopathic Association Newsletter, Summer 1996.
9 DE JARNETTE, M.B. Lecture notes and personal communication on SOT
10 SUTHERLAND, Adah S. and WALES. Anne L. Collected writings of William Gamer Sutherland 1914-1954, The Sutherland Cranial Teaching Foundation USA, 1967.


stomper

Hey stomper, I sense a little hostility.

I only mentioned the age of the study so that if you read it you would know which study I was talking about. A method of differenciating it from the quackwatch "study"

I suppose I could have said the PubMed study instead perhaps that would have been more to your liking, I think the part you missed was more of the important part, that the study was a small example of how adept the practicioners were. That the study had very little if anything to do with the movement of cranial bones.

As you have listed, several studies have been brought to the table to support the movement of cranial bones, each one was analysed dissected ridiculed which is fair because they should be able to stand on their own, so I don't see anything wrong with that, they should be tested and questioned.

Very little has been brought to the table to show that skull bones do not move. I hope your not upset because I scrutinize it. I'm glad it was mentioned and welcome more studies, in fact I would welcome overwhelmingly indisputable evidence to support the cranial bones do not move, however I haven't seen that yet.

You seem to be a little irritated with me by this and this ...
"Please stop being a troll, posting these links, and answer my question.
stomper "

Well, I answered your question as best I could which by the way was not specifically directed to me in the first place, so why don't you answer my question?

So my question is:

Why would one side develop more than the other in most but not all people if the bones did not move?

 

[stomper627]

I dont know.

But I do know that my professors wasted 2 months of my time in OMM teaching me something I have no desire to use....nor has it been proven...REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THE DAMN BONES MOVE OR NOT...to work.
Then they tell me, its ok to not to feel anything....as it takes most practicioners many classes to feel it and treat it....then 85% of my class can feel it? Hmmm......
Then to ask one of my professors to tell me what is wrong with me with a cranial eval. He tells me I have a normal rhythm for someone of my age. I tell him I am scheduled for a root canal in the morning as I have an absecessed tooth (which would disrupt my rhythm!!!!)....AND HE GETS UPSET WITH ME.

Look if you want to practice this hocus pocus....fine. Be my guest. I dont want to, and think it makes osteopathic medicine a laughing stock, and I really wish that it would stop being tested on for national boards.....
I am done with your stupid posts....as you seem to be the majortiy of the posters.....
stomper

 

[VentdependenT]

Thats hilarious.

 

[Old brain]

Well, I think the learning curve has crested here. To all those who participated, thanks for representing.

What have I learned from this?

That the evidence to support bone movement is feeble yet there is more evidence to support movement than there is against it, and that not enough conclusive evidence was presented to be conclusive. What I have learned from this was not enough in itself to convince me or change my mind. Thanks again for trying.

 

[Cowboy DO]

go away.

 

[PACtoDOC]

Old Brain,

You have a bright future as an AOA leader!!! But try to remember, it is not the job of the masses to disprove the thoerists, but it is indeed the theorists job to disprove the masses. No one is going to waste the time to do a study to disprove cranial because it would be like doing a study to prove that the earth is flat in response to a few idiots who think it is!! The basic scientific facts alone disprove the theorists, and thus the theorists have to come up with some rather compelling data to support their claim. Brain, you need to be more open minded about realism and less open minded about witchcraft.

 

[The Pod Squad]

Recently a paper was published that radiographically demonstrated proprioceptive insoles can change the frontal plane position of the cranial bones and atlas:

Rothbart BA 2013. Prescriptive Insoles and Dental Orthotics Change the Frontal Plane Position of the Atlas (C1), Mastoid, Malar, Temporal and Sphenoid Bones: A Preliminary Study. Journal of Cranio Manidibular and Sleep Practice, Vol 31(4):300-308.

This paper makes moot the discussion of whether the cranial bones can move or not.

 

[Kevin Baker]

Recently a paper was published that radiographically demonstrated proprioceptive insoles can change the frontal plane position of the cranial bones and atlas:

Rothbart BA 2013. Prescriptive Insoles and Dental Orthotics Change the Frontal Plane Position of the Atlas (C1), Mastoid, Malar, Temporal and Sphenoid Bones: A Preliminary Study. Journal of Cranio Manidibular and Sleep Practice, Vol 31(4):300-308.

This paper makes moot the discussion of whether the cranial bones can move or not.

"Until then, the current study should be
considered investigational (not definitive) and must be
interpreted with discernment."

I don't think the question is whether they move or not. There are a host of papers showing minuscule movements. The issue I've always had is whether the 0-2 degrees in this study, or the less than 1mm movement seen in other studies, can be picked up by someone with enough training. That said, I wouldn't gather much from an n=4, unblinded, non placebo controlled study. For all we know this is noise and normal variation or a biased observer.

 

[The Pod Squad]

Hi Kevin,

Your points are well taken, and yes, this is an investigation (not definitive) study. However, what has proven to be of interest is the very close correlation (that we are are seeing) between frontal plane movements of 1-2 degrees and TMJ/headache symptoms.

Frontal plane divergencies as little as 0.25 degrees can be picked up by someone trained to do so (e.g., orthogony DC or radiologist). The study was unblinded since it was considered improbable that the cranial bones 'float' from day to day (which is possible but hightly improbable). And n=4 for this type of study is substantial: Each patient had 4 radiographs, so 24 radiographs were measured (e.g., n=24).

Noise, highly improbable - how does one generate sufficient disruptive noise in standard xrays? Biased observer - not so. The radiologist who took the radiographs was not involved in the study (e.g., had no idea of what was being investigated). Normal variation, then you would be arguing that the cranial bones have free mobility and move around randomly.

Thank you for taking your time to respond. Your input is appreciated.

 

[The Pod Squad]

Error Corrrection: N=16 (not 24)

 

[MedicineMike]

Sure, cranial bones move. Does this mean cranial omm works? No.

 

[The Pod Squad]

I need to clarify and be more specific: This study radiographically demonstrated that proprioceptive insoles (and dental orthotics) can change the frontal plane position of the cranial bones (specifically, the mastoid, malar, temporal and sphenodi bones) and atlas. The outcome of this study provides a compelling argument that one must maintain a global vision when using proprioceptive insoles.

 

[Petypet]

No statistics, no control group, and in a journal with an impact factor of 1. This study provides nothing but a line on someone's CV.

 

[The Pod Squad]

I disagree. Demonstrating frontal plane mobility of the cranial bones and atlas using a proprioceptive insole underneath the foot has tremendous clinical relevance. Before this study was done, there was no published paper demonstrating this link (the radiographs provide that data).

 

[MedicineMike]

I disagree. Demonstrating frontal plane mobility of the cranial bones and atlas using a proprioceptive insole underneath the foot has tremendous clinical relevance. Before this study was done, there was no published paper demonstrating this link (the radiographs provide that data).

So you're telling me that if I ever Rx insoles to someone for their feet, that I should consciously be worried about their cranial bones shifting?

 

[The Pod Squad]

If my memory serves me correctly, when I took the Hippocratic Oath, I swore to do no harm to my patients (more precisely I swore "never do harm to anyone"). So, yes. now that it has become apparent (to me) that proprioceptive insoles can move the cranial bones (away from orthogonal if inappropriately prescribed or fitted), I would certainly use due diligence (to make sure I was doing no harm) if I were to Rx insoles. And that means, evaluating the entire patient, not just the foot.

Just my opinion.

 

[MedicineMike]

If my memory serves me correctly, when I took the Hippocratic Oath, I swore to do no harm to my patients (more precisely I swore "never do harm to anyone"). So, yes. now that it has become apparent (to me) that proprioceptive insoles can move the cranial bones (away from orthogonal if inappropriately prescribed or fitted), I would certainly use due diligence (to make sure I was doing no harm) if I were to Rx insoles. And that means, evaluating the entire patient, not just the foot.

Just my opinion.

So please tell me how I should monitor my patient's cranial bone movement?

 

[The Pod Squad]

I suggest you might consider contacting physicians/physical therapists/orthogonal chiropractors/naturopaths who specialize in Ascending Postural Distortional Patterns and their interaction with Descending Postural Distortional Patterns. If you do a Google search you will find hundreds of sites offering such training.

 

[tactical]

I don't believe that cranial bones move at all. You cited an impressive list of articles but they are all from the osteopathic community which makes them fundamentally biased towards acceptance of cranial manipulation.

JAOA. Exactly.

 

[MedicineMike]

I suggest you might consider contacting physicians/physical therapists/orthogonal chiropractors/naturopaths who specialize in Ascending Postural Distortional Patterns and their interaction with Descending Postural Distortional Patterns. If you do a Google search you will find hundreds of sites offering such training.

So glad you didn't say cranial. I just won't rx those so that I don't have to refer them to a quack

 

[Petypet]

I suggest you might consider contacting physicians/physical therapists/orthogonal chiropractors/naturopaths who specialize in Ascending Postural Distortional Patterns and their interaction with Descending Postural Distortional Patterns. If you do a Google search you will find hundreds of sites offering such training.

Just lost all remaining credibility. Clearly this is probably the same author from that novel journal article. This is why osteopathic research will never be taken seriously. Crappy researchers, doing crappy research, in crappy journals, with the audacity to call it novel. Some day the AOA will wake up and stop force feeding us stuff developed 100 years ago. If they want to advance this field we need some pioneers that actually devote good research to demonstrating the mechanisms of cranial, chapman's points, etc. Otherwise teach this crap in chiropractic school.

 

[costales]

Just lost all remaining credibility. Clearly this is probably the same author from that novel journal article.

How dare you insult the Father of Chronic Pain Elimination!

http://www.rothbartsite.com/About_Professor_Rothbart.html

Known as the Father of Chronic Pain Elimination, Professor/Dr. Rothbart uses his 40 years experience as a physician and researcher, his passion for medicine, his forward-thinking and commitment to explore new approaches to help people suffering from chronic musculoskeletal pain to get their life back.

Bachelors of Science (BSc - Major in Chemistry and Biology)
Doctor of Podiatric Medicine (DPM)
Doctor of Natural Medicine (DNM)
Licentiate (Masters) in Education

Professor/Dr. Rothbart has an international practice in Portugal where he treats people from all over the world using Rothbart Proprioceptive Therapy. Due to the demand for his therapy, for those who cannot travel to his office, he has also developed a highly successful approach - Long Distance Rothbart Proprioceptive Therapy - to treat patients via long distance.

(1) For payment, please use PayPal by simply clicking on the yellow Pay Now button appearing at the right hand side of this page.

(2) The cost of your Initial Phone Consultation is 100 euros. If you are using a credit card (that bills you in currency other than euros) your card automatically makes the conversion from your country's currency into euros.​

 

[MedicineMike]

Just lost all remaining credibility. Clearly this is probably the same author from that novel journal article. This is why osteopathic research will never be taken seriously. Crappy researchers, doing crappy research, in crappy journals, with the audacity to call it novel. Some day the AOA will wake up and stop force feeding us stuff developed 100 years ago. If they want to advance this field we need some pioneers that actually devote good research to demonstrating the mechanisms of cranial, chapman's points, etc. Otherwise teach this crap in chiropractic school.

This. Couldn't agree more

 

[sleepdoc17]

the title of this post is too funny.
The answer really depends on who you ask: DO class of 1965 vs DO class of 20**.

In a very related topic - I think that all D.O.'s should do a little research into the evidence (not) supporting cranial sacral. Look for the JAOA article about" the 'elephant' in the room. "