DO surgery residency

[yadave]

Ok so after reading several threads, being totally confused I have decided to post one of my own and ask the forbidden question:

How hard is it to get a MD surgery residency if you go to a DO school?

Surgery is what I want to go into...specificaly cardio-vascular surgery and I do not think that with my credentials I will be able to get into an allo school and to be honest the more I look into being a DO the more appealing it becomes. I love the concept of not just treating a symptom but rather looking at the bigger picture...I would LOVE to be a DO and it would be a great honor and privelage for me. However, I want to open doors for myself in the surgery area. How would one go about applying for the MD surgical residencies? Are there seperate board exams, etc? Please if someone could take the time to explain in detail it would help me out a lot in making decisions for my upcoming commitments/future...

thank u

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[0529710]

Hey, I go to PCOM. I love it, by the by.

1. Surgery is huge here.
a) There is actually an argument that osteopathic schools are better funded than allopathic schools. More funding = better opportunities for students, in some cases.
(i) For instance, check this out: http://www.pcom.edu/vtour_041108/pcom_ginsburg_suite.html This is a part of our campus tour which highlights that PCOM has a laproscopic simulator. Note the last line: "PCOM is the first medical school in Philadelphia, and one of only a few in the country, to own such a device."
2. I just heard a fourth year surgical resident from KCOM talk about her experience in front of us first-years. She was asked if she ever experienced bias(prejudice); she said no. She was asked (something along the lines of) if she felt her skills were apt for a career in surgery. She said absolutely. She said (more or less) that her skills were as good as any surgical resident's, and maybe enhanced given her osteopathic training.

So yes, surgery is definitely an option. Personally, I'm really glad I chose osteopathic medicine. My experience with allopathic schools was very disheartening. Indeed, I know one girl who was all set to go to Drexel (allopathic), but just really hated the place, so came here instead. Not saying non-osteopathic medical schools are lacking anything...just that, my experience with osteo has been phenomenal, comparatively.

Anecdotal, I know, but useful info for anyone deciding between the too. Really, it doesn't matter. Go wherever you want. In the end the physician you become depends entirely on you.

 

[DrMidlife]

I thought up (what I think is) a pretty good analogy for this last night.

MD surgery residents are Fred Astaire, and DO ACGME surgery residents are Ginger Rogers. DO's have to perform just as fabulously as MDs, but backwards, in heels.

What MD's have to do:
1. not screw up
2. get great grades, evaluations, and board scores
3. organize 3rd/4th years to be auditioned & ready to interview by ~January of 4th year (this is supported at MD schools)
4. do audition rotations in programs where you want to apply, and blow the PD away

DO's have to do all of the above, plus:
1. ace two sets of board exams (COMLEX + USMLE)
2. fight w/school to push lengthy OMM/rural/FP rotations to late in 4th year to accomodate auditions & interviewing (likely using vacation and allocated board study time to get auditions done)
3. beg for audition rotations with ACGME programs, some of which don't take DOs, which effectively adds a whole 'nother application process to the mix
4. may need to be the inaugural DO ambassador during audition, dispelling remaining myths held about quackery or weak education etc, and/or undoing damage done by any previous horrible DO candidates whether they went to your school or not
5. bypass the DO match entirely (you can't try for ACGME residencies and DO residencies simultaneously - if you match DO, you're punted from ACGME)
6. reconcile how an ACGME residency works with the 5 state rule, possibly requiring an additional intern year before residency, or the filing of a rule 42 exception

Now, I'm still just a premed, so I probably have misrepresented this somewhat, and I assume I'll get corrected shortly.

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

2. fight w/school to push lengthy OMM/rural/FP rotations to late in 4th year to accomodate auditions & interviewing (likely using vacation and allocated board study time to get auditions done)

]

I think this one depends on your school. we dont have to do an omm rotation ever.

here is what our 4th year looks like for my class

Required Rotations (8 weeks Total)
Family Medicine – 8 weeks
OR
Family Medicine – 4 weeks
PLUS
Rural, Community, or International Medicine – 4 weeks

True electives – Remainder of 4th year
Can chose almost any rotation
Can do it almost anywhere
DMU has to be able to arrange agreements and/or contracts
Physician supervisor must be credentialed by University

 

[DrMidlife]

I think this one depends on your school...

Absolutely. I'm not trying to claim that DO schools shouldn't require some rotations, or that every DO school makes you do extended primary care rotations in 4th year. This is published info on a school's website, so 4th year requirements shouldn't be a surprise.

What I am trying to claim is that it can be an uphill battle with your school to try to schedule your required 4th year rotations later in the year, so that you can predictably schedule auditions in summer/fall, so that you're set up to interview at the same time as MDs.

 

[DrMidlife]

...Surgery is what I want to go into...specificaly cardio-vascular surgery...

It's my understanding that these are separate specialties, btw. There's thoracic surgery (aka cardiothoracic) and there's vascular surgery. The two overlap with each other, and also with interventional radiology and with general surgery etc.

If you want to be a CT (thoracic) surgeon, you do a 5+ year general surgery residency, and then do 2+ additional years in a CT residency or fellowship. And then you get paid to operate on hearts.

Vascular is pretty much the same, but there are now integrated vascular residencies, where you're done in 5+ years instead of doing GS + fellowship. And then you get paid to operate on aortas and IVCs and extremity vasculature etc.

 

[Old_Mil]

Anecdotal stories aside, go to the NBME website and crunch the numbers from their reports. IM, FM, Peds all have DOs who match in the 15%-20% range. EM is around 10%. Surgery? 2.5%.

Without a doubt it is harder to break into surgery as a DO than as an MD.

 

[yadave]

harder as in REALLY HARD? or just a bit harder?

what exactly does it mean whe you say harder

 

[JaggerPlate]

Anecdotal stories aside, go to the NBME website and crunch the numbers from their reports. IM, FM, Peds all have DOs who match in the 15%-20% range. EM is around 10%. Surgery? 2.5%.

Without a doubt it is harder to break into surgery as a DO than as an MD.

Are these percents representative of all applicants that applied and were successful, or the percent of DOs in said fields? These are all numbers for DOs applying MD? Nothing about the % who applied both and were pulled from MD after matching DO?? Anything about the MD applicants that were also rejected from said programs? Etc, etc, etc ...

It may be harder (numerically) for a DO to break into (MD?) surgery, or surgery in general (though I would like to see numbers of applicants to AOA approved spots), but it clearly isn't impossible. One should be practical, not pessimistic.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

No, one should be smart. Usually those who know they have a chance at an allopathic gen surg program will not even bother with osteopathic. However, I feel if anyone is interested in surgery, osteopathic may be the way to go. Mich, Ohio, Philly have strong gen surg programs.

 

[beastmaster]

(i) For instance, check this out: http://www.pcom.edu/vtour_041108/pcom_ginsburg_suite.html This is a part of our campus tour which highlights that PCOM has a laproscopic simulator. Note the last line: "PCOM is the first medical school in Philadelphia, and one of only a few in the country, to own such a device."

Can I go play with that thing?

I'm in philly for 3 more days. Who do I have to call...

 

[Gut Shot]

I love the concept of not just treating a symptom but rather looking at the bigger picture...

Are you kidding? Treating just the symptoms is awesome!

Sincerely,

All MDs

 

[yadave]

Are you kidding? Treating just the symptoms is awesome!

Sincerely,

All MDs

Yea Im sure you think so....

you know, i talked to my cousin today (she goes to JH for medical school) and she told me that as much as she loves medicine, she has a very strong respect for D.Os.

I agree with her. I think D.Os need the respect that they truely deserve at thsi point. They do EVERYTHING plus more and sadly we are still dealing with this stigma situation...how sad....

ok that was my little two cent moment...

 

[Gut Shot]

Yea Im sure you think so....

Oh, I know so! My allopathic medical school even went so far as to reword their H&P's to better reflect our symptom-treating paradigm. No longer is it a "chief complaint," but a "chief symptom." All elements of the history, psychosocial assessment, physical exam and laboratory assessments unrelated to the presenting symptom were done away with. Orders and consults dropped 95% overnight. Hand 'em some pills and show 'em the door!

 

[yadave]

Oh, I know so! My allopathic medical school even went so far as to reword their H&P's to better reflect our symptom-treating paradigm. No longer is it a "chief complaint," but a "chief symptom." All elements of the history, psychosocial assessment, physical exam and laboratory assessments unrelated to the presenting symptom were done away with. Orders and consults dropped 95% overnight. Hand 'em some pills and show 'em the door!

i think tihs is where u break the awkward silence from my end with a huge "JUSTTTTT KIDDING"....anytime now....

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

harder as in REALLY HARD? or just a bit harder?

what exactly does it mean whe you say harder

Harder as in; If you want to do an MD surgery residency go to an US MD school.

If your an awesome Osteo student, doors will be open to you in both realms, but MD programs were created to take MD's fair and simple, we are somewhat privileged to be in their programs.

 

[Gut Shot]

i think tihs is where u break the awkward silence from my end with a huge "JUSTTTTT KIDDING"....anytime now....

You're right, I am kidding, but I'm also sick of this "treating the whole person not just the disease/symptom" hogwash that is continuously promulgated through this forum. Between med school and residency, I'm in my 8th year of allopathic medical training. The notion that my education has been targeted solely towards the pharmacologic treatment of symptoms, at the expense of addressing deeper issues, is offensive to me. With the exception of OMM, which is used by only a small percentage of practicing DOs, the modern clinical practice for both allopathic and osteopathic physicians is essentially identical.

In short, there are good reasons to choose DO, but thinking you'll be learning some superior holistic approach is, at best, wishful thinking.

End soapbox.

 

[yadave]

You're right, I am kidding, but I'm also sick of this "treating the whole person not just the disease/symptom" hogwash that is continuously promulgated through this forum. Between med school and residency, I'm in my 8th year of allopathic medical training. The notion that my education has been targeted solely towards the pharmacologic treatment of symptoms, at the expense of addressing deeper issues, is offensive to me. With the exception of OMM, which is used by only a small percentage of practicing DOs, the modern clinical practice for both allopathic and osteopathic physicians is essentially identical.

In short, there are good reasons to choose DO, but thinking you'll be learning some superior holistic approach is, at best, wishful thinking.

End soapbox.

well I suppose I cant argue with you since you have the experience and I dont...so ill take your word for it....

i still dont understand why DOs dont have a M in their title..doesnt matter to me but it just doesnt make sense if they are still medical doctors

 

[cyclohexanol]

i still dont understand why DOs dont have a M in their title..doesnt matter to me but it just doesnt make sense if they are still medical doctors

Politics.

 

[goooooober]

Gut Shot is right. This "treating the whole person, not just symptoms" is one of the most ridiculous slogans used by DO schools. As your training progresses and you work along side MDs more, you realize how stupid it is. As far as respect for DOs, respect is earned and never given. If DOs as a group want respect, they need to earn it the same way MDs do, at an individual level by continuing to work hard and focusing on taking excellent care of patients. That will earn you respect and help dispel negative beliefs about DOs.

Getting into allo surgery is very difficult, but doable. As mentioned though, there are some very respectable DO programs out there as well. You do not need to go to MD school to get into allo surg. Just do well in classes and of course the USMLEs. Then go to big name programs and do SubIs, focus on taking excellent care of patients. People will notice and support you. It is a myth that none will judge you and even mistreat you sometimes. As a matter of fact, silently, you have much less room to screw up, so the pressure will be on. But keep your head high and take excellent care of your patients. The rest will work out.

Good luck.

Goooooober D.O.
General Surgery Resident
PGY2
University of *********

 

[goooooober]

Gut Shot is right. This "treating the whole person, not just symptoms" is one of the most ridiculous slogans used by DO schools. As your training progresses and you work along side MDs more, you realize how stupid it is. As far as respect for DOs, respect is earned and never given and if DOs as a group want respect, they need to earn it the same way MDs do, at an individual level by continuing to work hard and focusing on taking excellent care of patients. That will earn you respect and help dispel negative beliefs about DOs.

Getting into allo surgery is very difficult, but doable. As mentioned though, there are some very respectable DO programs out there as well. You do not need to go to MD school to get into allo surg. Just do well in classes and of course the USMLEs. Then go to big name programs and do SubIs, focus on taking excellent care of patients. People will notice and support you. It is a myth that none will judge you and even mistreat you sometimes. As a matter of fact, silently, you have much less room to screw up, so the pressure will be on. But keep your head high and take excellent care of your patients. The rest will work out.

Good luck.

Goooooober D.O.
General Surgery Resident
PGY2
University of *********

 

[Khirurg]

I couldn't have said it better than Gooober.
Let me just give you might personal experience, since i am finishing allo surgery residency and going into Cardiothoracic surgery.
It is no question, harder to get into allo program as a DO. Every interview that i had, i had to explain myself, why did i choose to go DO. You have to work harder and show that you will be a really good resident. Don't go to places that have never taken a DO, because they probably won't take you, unless you are something really special. And i suggest that you drop that nonsense "treat the whole person", because it will definitely cost you a spot. DO are treated as second rate people by surgery residencies for the most part, except for those that have track record of taking us. Our program would take one a year, until this year when they took three for categorical spots. I guess we worked hard enough and showed ourselves well enough.
I terms of CT fellowships - if you come from DO general surgery program you will be treated as a second rate citizen again, but you'll match, as CT is not really competitive anymore. The top programs are out of reach probably. If you finish MD residency, playing field is level.

 

[J1515]

i still dont understand why DOs dont have a M in their title..doesnt matter to me but it just doesnt make sense if they are still medical doctors

Because it doesn't make a difference. To go through the effort of rewriting all the laws and hospital policies just so we could have an "M" in our name doesn't make any sense. People who don't know what a DO is will be equally as confused as to what MDO or MD-DO means. All it will do is make some of the insecure MD rejects who used DO as a backup feel better about themselves now that they have an M in their name.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Because it doesn't make a difference. To go through the effort of rewriting all the laws and hospital policies just so we could have an "M" in our name doesn't make any sense. People who don't know what a DO is will be equally as confused as to what MDO or MD-DO means. All it will do is make some of the insecure MD rejects who used DO as a backup feel better about themselves now that they have an M in their name.

So, you're a DO student? I always imagined you to be an MD student ...

 

[J1515]

So, you're a DO student? I always imagined you to be an MD student ...

Yes. 4th year DO.