DO; to remain separate or merge with MD?

[deleted103644]

I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure the "balancing of humors" is as outdated as diagnosing a woman who cannot conceive a child as "having serpents occupying the womb"....

My point was that's not "outdated", it's flat out wrong. DO schools seem to long for the good old days when osteopaths did not believe in pharmaceuticals.

There's no blood-letting course in the MD curriculum.

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[donkeykong1]

My point was that's not "outdated", it's flat out wrong. DO schools seem to long for the good old days when osteopaths did not believe in pharmaceuticals.

There's no blood-letting course in the MD curriculum.

Harvard has OMM CME courses
A number of schools have rotations in CAM. I posted some info about NYMC having one.
CAM includes treatments in homeopathy, acupuncture, cranial, to some extent OMM...

The united states is the only first world country that is grossly repulsed by alternative medicine and I'm not talking about the crap which quacks practice. There is a fine line between treatments that are supported with evidence and those which aren't. The leverage big pharma has in America's leading leads Physicians away from that line.

 

[deleted103644]

Harvard has OMM CME courses
A number of schools have rotations in CAM. I posted some info about NYMC having one.
CAM includes treatments in homeopathy, acupuncture, cranial, to some extent OMM...

The united states is the only first world country that is grossly repulsed by alternative medicine and I'm not talking about the crap which quacks practice. There is a fine line between treatments that are supported with evidence and those which aren't. The leverage big pharma has in America's leading leads Physicians away from that line.

Those aren't required courses and yes, I'm just as annoyed at CAM as OMM.

There are very good reasons for not believing in that hogwash. If something is real, it can be tested.

Sticking needles into someone (acupuncture) or massaging someone (OMM) can have soothing effects, but the principles behind both techniques are too flawed to be worth continuing.

 

[HalfListic]

Keep DO separate and eliminate the COMLEX.

Here's another realistic idea.

 

[sylvanthus]

Agreed if they really want to test us on OMM they can have a short test just on OMM. Otherwise USMLE should suffice.

 

[Vancomycin12]

My point was that's not "outdated", it's flat out wrong. DO schools seem to long for the good old days when osteopaths did not believe in pharmaceuticals.

There's no blood-letting course in the MD curriculum.

hilarious! Great analogy though...

Those aren't required courses and yes, I'm just as annoyed at CAM as OMM.

There are very good reasons for not believing in that hogwash. If something is real, it can be tested.

Sticking needles into someone (acupuncture) or massaging someone (OMM) can have soothing effects, but the principles behind both techniques are too flawed to be worth continuing.

I am annoyed at certain CAM. I think everything has its place and is VERY patient dependent. A lot of CAM is placebo. People just like to have something done to them and then they convince themselves that they feel better

This is the first time we disagree! Even though I dislike OMM, I have to defend it here. It is definitely more than just massage. As I said before, there ARE techniques that work, and there are also some that are ******ed. Definitely not even close to massage though.

 

[donkeykong1]

Those aren't required courses and yes, I'm just as annoyed at CAM as OMM.

There are very good reasons for not believing in that hogwash. If something is real, it can be tested.

Sticking needles into someone (acupuncture) or massaging someone (OMM) can have soothing effects, but the principles behind both techniques are too flawed to be worth continuing.

i don't think spinal manipulation can be considered a massage. anyhoo, its not like i'll be using OMM or any of the CAM stuff in the future...it's just good to be well read on CAM/OMM since if one is doing IM,FM,EM,Peds you're bound to get a patient that swears by that stuff or might simply inquire about their efficacy.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Agreed if they really want to test us on OMM they can have a short test just on OMM. Otherwise USMLE should suffice.

You should be allowed to option to choose whether you want to take the USMLE or the COMLEX as your primary medical board in my opinion and not both ( Unless you want to).

 

[azide10]

I don't know how I feel about all that yet, I'm only just applying now. Maybe I'll feel stronger about it in the future but I have a feeling I'll be more along the lines of "I came from this school, I have strong feelings about physicians coming out of this school and everyone else is a doctor so they are probably competent." Whatever is best for the profession is something I'll support.

I will say I find the need to get a DO LOR to be ridiculous. Why does a LOR from someone I followed around for maybe 16 hours have any impact? Why is the LOR from the MD I worked side by side with for months not sufficient? Schools want to know my experience with osteopathic medicine? Fine I'll tell them I shadowed a DO and describe some stuff in the secondaries. Or better yet, since every school wants to know about it just make a little section for it in the primary app.

 

[Ironmandoc]

There will be 40-50 DO schools opening in the next 25 years to accommodate the aging patient population and lack of primary care physicians. There was an article on AMSA a while back about it

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

There will be 40-50 DO schools opening in the next 25 years to accommodate the aging patient population and lack of primary care physicians. There was an article on AMSA a while back about it

To accompany the 12 new FM residencies added in Michsylvannia in the same time?
Honestly there aren't enough residencies right now to support all graduates by 2020 and the government is poor. So yah, in 20 years I'm going to feel bad for DO students.

 

[Rub A Dub GTI]

Here's another realistic idea.

Yes sir

 

[NonTraditional3]

There will be 40-50 DO schools opening in the next 25 years to accommodate the aging patient population and lack of primary care physicians. There was an article on AMSA a while back about it

Seems like a lot of work for 25 years..

 

[cliquesh]

To accompany the 12 new FM residencies added in Michsylvannia in the same time?
Honestly there aren't enough residencies right now to support all graduates by 2020 and the government is poor. So yah, in 20 years I'm going to feel bad for DO students.

At grand rounds a few weeks ago, we had a lecture about how in 2015 there will be more US graduates (MDs and DOs) than ACGME spots. There are, however, currently 2655 DO residency spots and 580 internships, so, yeah, by 2020 more people will be going unmatched.

 

[psychgirrrl]

At grand rounds a few weeks ago, we had a lecture about how in 2015 there will be more US graduates (MDs and DOs) than ACGME spots. There are, however, currently 2655 DO residency spots and 580 internships, so, yeah, by 2020 more people will be going unmatched.

What do you mean when you say people will be going unmatched? Do you mean people who want to become specialists will be unmatched or across the board there won't be enough residencies?

Supposedly the new health care law is going to provide more residency spots and hopefully, if this problem is being projected by now the medical community can be a little proactive and start thinking of a way to fix this problem.

 

[UrshumMurshum]

There will be 40-50 DO schools opening in the next 25 years to accommodate the aging patient population and lack of primary care physicians. There was an article on AMSA a while back about it

Normally I wouldn't believe such a claim, but with 3 schools opening this year and 11 schools currently applying:http://tinyurl.com/6qfko2h I can believe it.

 

[docmayer]

Normally I wouldn't believe such a claim, but with 3 schools opening this year and 11 schools currently applying:http://tinyurl.com/6qfko2h I can believe it.

 

[HalfListic]

What do you mean when you say people will be going unmatched? Do you mean people who want to become specialists will be unmatched or across the board there won't be enough residencies?

Supposedly the new health care law is going to provide more residency spots and hopefully, if this problem is being projected by now the medical community can be a little proactive and start thinking of a way to fix this problem.

This was my reaction too...surely they will open more residencies when they open 40-50 schools. At the very least, it's they need primary care, but will probably also add the specialties. An aging population need more than primary care.

Oh course, I have little knowledge or experience in this matter, but it seems highly illogical to open 50 schools and then not be ready with residency spots for the grads...

 

[cliquesh]

This was my reaction too...surely they will open more residencies when they open 40-50 schools. At the very least, it's they need primary care, but will probably also add the specialties. An aging population need more than primary care.

Oh course, I have little knowledge or experience in this matter, but it seems high illogical to open 50 schools and it it be ready with residency spots for the grads...

Residencies, for the most part, are created using money from the federal government. The US is 15trillion dollars indebt, so I wouldn't expect a drastic expansion in the number of residencies anytime soon.

 

[dntke1518]

Exactly, and it won't happen when there are unfilled spots (FM). They won't fund new programs if we still need FM and just for the sake to appease people who think they need to match to say a ROADs specialty

 

[UrshumMurshum]

Residencies, for the most part, are created using money from the federal government. The US is 15trillion dollars indebt, so I wouldn't expect a drastic expansion in the number of residencies anytime soon.

This is the sad reality of it all.

Right now neither of the political parties are rallying around a message of increasing residency positions. It won't become a disaster until the number of US grads are > Number of spots though. Right now the expansion is just being seen as pushing out IMGs and filling unfilled PCP slots.

 

[psychgirrrl]

Residencies, for the most part, are created using money from the federal government. The US is 15trillion dollars indebt, so I wouldn't expect a drastic expansion in the number of residencies anytime soon.

We do a lot of things while we are in debt, I understand being skeptical of this expansion but I think us being in debt is just a reality it doesn't mean that money won't be invested in education...if we vote consciously, of course. If you are speaking about the current state of congress and the cutting of everything domestic, then yes, I completely agree with you.

Also, something could be done to encourage students to go into FM so we can justify more programs for FM and other specialties.

 

[HalfListic]

Residencies, for the most part, are created using money from the federal government. The US is 15trillion dollars indebt, so I wouldn't expect a drastic expansion in the number of residencies anytime soon.

Exactly, and it won't happen when there are unfilled spots (FM). They won't fund new programs if we still need FM and just for the sake to appease people who think they need to match to say a ROADs specialty

Ok, I see what you guys are saying here. But how many FM spots remain unfilled? are there enough for 60-70% of 50 DO schools graduates to fill and then some? If so, then new spots need to be open, right?

Also, I do understand the government is in debt, but when the number is 15 trillion, it actually becomes a non issue. A 25% change in government funding to residency programs one way or the other won't even be a drop in the bucket. A trillion is difficult to comprehend.

Government spending is controlled by what makes sense politically (for the most part) not by how much debt we are in. And with healthcare and "fiscal responsibility" both being hot topics for the next decade, I could see spending going either way.

 

[deleted103644]

This was my reaction too...surely they will open more residencies when they open 40-50 schools. At the very least, it's they need primary care, but will probably also add the specialties. An aging population need more than primary care.

Oh course, I have little knowledge or experience in this matter, but it seems high illogical to open 50 schools and it it be ready with residency spots for the grads...

By whose logic? If people want to go to medical school, the government is willing to pay for their loans, and the COCA has lax standards and allows for-profit institutions, you'd be nuts not to open a DO school right now. Who cares what happens to the students? You can still profit.

This is why the various guys behind the Caribbean schools are now opening DO programs.

 

[psychgirrrl]

By whose logic? If people want to go to medical school, the government is willing to pay for their loans, and the COCA has lax standards and allows for-profit institutions, you'd be nuts not to open a DO school right now. Who cares what happens to the students? You can still profit.

This is why the various guys behind the Caribbean schools are now opening DO programs.

Do you have any proof for this claim? I am not trying to say you are wrong but I would like to be informed about this as I am choosing DO as my path.

 

[donkeykong1]

Do you have any proof for this claim? I am not trying to say you are wrong but I would like to be informed about this as I am choosing DO as my path.

the guys who started RVUCOM had backgrounds in startings chools like SABA or AUC. the same holds true for the proposed school in rhode island.

 

[deleted103644]

Do you have any proof for this claim? I am not trying to say you are wrong but I would like to be informed about this as I am choosing DO as my path.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2008/0929/060.html

I believe most of the main Caribbean schools are planning to set up new DO schools in the US, but would have to dig a bit more for the articles.

 

[donkeykong1]

Residencies, for the most part, are created using money from the federal government. The US is 15trillion dollars indebt, so I wouldn't expect a drastic expansion in the number of residencies anytime soon.

sure not drastic. but the number of residencies under the ACGME and AOA is increasing annually. and yes mainland schools (MD/DO) are expanding. they will expand to a point though. hopefully not beyond taking over the spots FMG/IMGs take in the match.

 

[psychgirrrl]

the guys who started RVUCOM had backgrounds in startings chools like SABA or AUC. the same holds true for the proposed school in rhode island.

That's interesting, I am glad this is being discussed because I will keep these things in mind when choosing the school I attend (If I get to choose at all).

About opening new residencies, I remember hearing on NPR that the new health care law, which expands medicaid will provide funding for more residencies spots starting in 2016. However, the law is in the supreme court right now, so as always, it is up to the lawyers.

 

[deleted103644]

sure not drastic. but the number of residencies under the ACGME and AOA is increasing annually. and yes mainland schools (MD/DO) are expanding. they will expand to a point though. hopefully not beyond taking over the spots FMG/IMGs take in the match.

Do you really think the only goal of expansion is to shut out FMGs?

With for-profit DO schools opening up, the arguments for cutting off Caribbean US IMGs would also apply to them.

I would not be surprised if they keep expanding spots in MD schools to shut out DOs as well.

 

[deleted103644]

That's interesting, I am glad this is being discussed because I will keep these things in mind when choosing the school I attend (If I get to choose at all).

About opening new residencies, I remember hearing on NPR that the new health care law, which expands medicaid will provide funding for more residencies spots starting in 2016. However, the law is in the supreme court right now, so as always, it is up to the lawyers.

The debt plan also gutted GME funding, so I wouldn't hope for any increases any time soon.

 

[HalfListic]

By whose logic? If people want to go to medical school, the government is willing to pay for their loans, and the COCA has lax standards and allows for-profit institutions, you'd be nuts not to open a DO school right now. Who cares what happens to the students? You can still profit.

This is why the various guys behind the Caribbean schools are now opening DO programs.

First of all...I went back and edited my sentence. Typing on a phone is not a fun time.

But to answer, this is only by my own logic. I fully admit that I am not that knowledgeable in this area so I am just trying to figure it out.

But I think that your view might be a little too cynical and not entirely accurate. Its true that its a great time to open more schools, even financially. But as ridiculous as the government is at times, I don't think that there will be a situation where we have thousands of medical student who complete a full program, and then have no where to even fulfill a primary care residency.

We have a need of more doctors, so if we open up 50 new schools, there will have to be an increase of residency programs (or increased numbers in existing programs or both).

 

[deleted103644]

First of all...I went back and edited my sentence. Typing on a phone is not a fun time.

But to answer, this is only by my own logic. I fully admit that I am not that knowledgeable in this area so I am just trying to figure it out.

But I think that your view might be a little too cynical and not entirely accurate. Its true that its a great time to open more schools, even financially. But as ridiculous as the government is at times, I don't think that there will be a situation where we have thousands of medical student who complete a full program, and then have no where to even fulfill a primary care residency.

We have a need of more doctors, so if we open up 50 new schools, there will have to be an increase of residency programs (or increased numbers in existing programs or both).

I think you're seriously underestimating the political climate.

Right now, GME funding spots are scheduled to get slashed, not increased.

The only way to have more residency spots would be for hospitals to actually pay for them (most are not in a position to do this).

Which political party do you expect to increase GME funding?

The Republicans hate Medicare (source of the funding) and the Democrats have no love of doctors (majority are Republican, earn too much to be liberal and too little to be worth courting for fundraising).

 

[donkeykong1]

Do you really think the only goal of expansion is to shut out FMGs?

With for-profit DO schools opening up, the arguments for cutting off Caribbean US IMGs would also apply to them.

I would not be surprised if they keep expanding spots in MD schools to shut out DOs as well.

US MD schools would have to exponentially increase their class sizes to match the number of ACGME residencies-this is not happening there simply is no money in this economy to start up enough schools. Secondly, the primary argument for cutting off US IMGs is not b/c they're grads of for-profit schools.

given the proliferation of more and more dual acgme/aoa programs and the partnership of the 2 organizations to come up with a common way to hold these programs accountable, I see no reason why the ACGME would shut out DOs.

 

[donkeykong1]

The debt plan also gutted GME funding, so I wouldn't hope for any increases any time soon.

here's a list of all the new aoa residencies/fellowships which opened up in 2012:

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/Education/Pages/new-aoa-approved-ogme-programs.aspx

 

[HalfListic]

That's interesting, I am glad this is being discussed because I will keep these things in mind when choosing the school I attend (If I get to choose at all).

About opening new residencies, I remember hearing on NPR that the new health care law, which expands medicaid will provide funding for more residencies spots starting in 2016. However, the law is in the supreme court right now, so as always, it is up to the lawyers.

take most of what good ol Johnny D says with a grain of salt. He can be a bit extreme.

For profit is a big topic, but has little to do with practicing medicine and a students medical education or their career later. RVU has already done very well with every stat out there and their students are matching just fine in residencies like any other good DO school.

 

[deleted103644]

US MD schools would have to exponentially increase their class sizes to match the number of ACGME residencies-this is not happening there simply is no money in this economy to start up enough schools. Secondly, the primary argument for cutting off US IMGs is not b/c they're grads of for-profit schools.

given the proliferation of more and more dual acgme/aoa programs and the partnership of the 2 organizations to come up with a common way to hold these programs accountable, I see no reason why the ACGME would shut out DOs.

The primary argument is not the for profit one, it's that the accreditation requirements are too lax.

The same is true of COCA vs the LCME. It is much easier to set up a new DO school than a new MD school, and it has nothing to do with the different philosophies.

 

[donkeykong1]

take most of what good ol Johnny D says with a grain of salt. He can be a bit extreme.

For profit is a big topic, but has little to do with practicing medicine and a students medical education or their career later. RVU has already done very well with every stat out there and their students are matching just fine in residencies like any other good DO school.

no .their match was terrible. mostly aoa matches at small community hospitals. the acgme matches were mostly community programs too. attrition was high as well.

 

[psychgirrrl]

take most of what good ol Johnny D says with a grain of salt. He can be a bit extreme.

For profit is a big topic, but has little to do with practicing medicine and a students medical education or their career later. RVU has already done very well with every stat out there and their students are matching just fine in residencies like any other good DO school.

His name is Johnny Drama after all, I am just glad to have the information available to me, I think I am intelligent enough to make conclusions by looking at what's out there.

I thought RVU only started last year and that they didn't have a graduating class yet. Is this true? If so, which stats have been produced by them and where can I see them?

 

[donkeykong1]

His name is Johnny Drama after all, I am just glad to have the information available to me, I think I am intelligent enough to make conclusions by looking at what's out there.

I thought RVU only started last year and that they didn't have a graduating class yet. Is this true? If so, which stats have been produced by them and where can I see them?

here's the rvu match results:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=897556

 

[HalfListic]

I think you're seriously underestimating the political climate.

Right now, GME funding spots are scheduled to get slashed, not increased.

The only way to have more residency spots would be for hospitals to actually pay for them (most are not in a position to do this).

Which political party do you expect to increase GME funding?

The Republicans hate Medicare (source of the funding) and the Democrats have no love of doctors (majority are Republican, earn too much to be liberal and too little to be worth courting for fundraising).

You are right with your facts, but again you are extreme in your interpretation and predictions with them. Its actually really simple, either party will increase spending if there is a huge increase in schools as was discussed earlier.

Republicans don't hate medicare and Dems don't hate doctors...BOTH sides just like to be elected, so they talk and debate and make promises to appeal to their constituents. This is not new. 'NO NEW TAXES"- usually means Im trying to get the republican vote-but when Im in office, Ill raise taxes if needed. This is the same for any spending

here's a list of all the new aoa residencies/fellowships which opened up in 2012:

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/Education/Pages/new-aoa-approved-ogme-programs.aspx

this is a good example

 

[HalfListic]

no .their match was terrible. mostly aoa matches at small community hospitals. the acgme matches were mostly community programs too. attrition was high as well.

I guess thats a relative statement...who are you comparing to? this is a brand new DO school...

But, what you say isn't false, but Im not sure it was terrible.

I thought this was a pretty fair breakdown from the thread:

"Let me get the negative out of the way first. The ACGME match list (with the nice exception of drexel and CC, which are always great to see) was really sparse there and wasnt that everyone's concern all along? Why was ACGME IM nearly a no show? There are a shockingly low number of surgery spots among all the residency types.The military match, which everyone made a big deal about, was not as special as hyped when you see what the military matches actually were. And as someone else said, there is a match vs enrollment size discrepancy which, while not necessarily bad, is a pretty bad looking thing until we figure out why. The critical analyst side of me is very underwhelmed, partially because I got my hopes after the strong military match results (which really, was the strong military match quantity, we never had a quality measure til now). I have yet to shake the idea that there is some serious ACGME resistance to the school.


Now onto the good stuff. HOLY CRAPAMOLE 2 orthos and an ENT out of the bat. HOLY CRAPAMOLE Doctor's for ortho! And bravo on spreading residencies across the country so well (it matter much more than you'd think, and looks really good on you). Now after crapping on the military match above, there is nothing wrong with your military match, and the quantity should speak volumes, it just was way too hyped for a regular (but in no way poor) accumulation of spots and fields. Hell, you did damn good for a first year school. Be proud of that.

NOTE: You can call me a hater. I'm just trying to be a tough analyst. I think I've always defended as much as I've attacked RVU. A tough analysis (and honest compliments) are deserved here more than anywhere else because so many places and people do still consider the school an experiment to be played out and observed."

 

[donkeykong1]

The primary argument is not th for profit one, it's that the licensing requirements are too lax.

The same is true of COCA vs the LCME. It is much easier to set up a new DO school than a new MD school, and it has nothin to do with the different philosophies.

primary argument for a PD to take a US MD over a IMG/FMG MD/MBBS regardless of board score, is that the latter finished their studies outside the US and are now hoping to leech off tax payer money funded residency spots.

i don't think its really an issue of licensing or accreditation (see TCMC which was on probation for only about 6 months by the LCME). both the COCA and LCME have problems with individual MD/DO schools. i agree the for-profit thing is a mess on the COCA side. maybe rvu will be forced to convert into a non-profit corp? who knows and who cares unless one is an rvu student. its not really an issue of cheapening the DO degree. all degrees are cheapened these days...MD degrees are available online for offshore degree mills

 

[donkeykong1]

I guess thats a relative statement...who are you comparing to? this is a brand new DO school...

But, what you say isn't false, but Im not sure it was terrible.

I thought this was a pretty fair breakdown from the thread:

"Let me get the negative out of the way first. The ACGME match list (with the nice exception of drexel and CC, which are always great to see) was really sparse there and wasnt that everyone's concern all along? Why was ACGME IM nearly a no show? There are a shockingly low number of surgery spots among all the residency types.The military match, which everyone made a big deal about, was not as special as hyped when you see what the military matches actually were. And as someone else said, there is a match vs enrollment size discrepancy which, while not necessarily bad, is a pretty bad looking thing until we figure out why. The critical analyst side of me is very underwhelmed, partially because I got my hopes after the strong military match results (which really, was the strong military match quantity, we never had a quality measure til now). I have yet to shake the idea that there is some serious ACGME resistance to the school.


Now onto the good stuff. HOLY CRAPAMOLE 2 orthos and an ENT out of the bat. HOLY CRAPAMOLE Doctor's for ortho! And bravo on spreading residencies across the country so well (it matter much more than you'd think, and looks really good on you). Now after crapping on the military match above, there is nothing wrong with your military match, and the quantity should speak volumes, it just was way too hyped for a regular (but in no way poor) accumulation of spots and fields. Hell, you did damn good for a first year school. Be proud of that.

NOTE: You can call me a hater. I'm just trying to be a tough analyst. I think I've always defended as much as I've attacked RVU. A tough analysis (and honest compliments) are deserved here more than anywhere else because so many places and people do still consider the school an experiment to be played out and observed."

it's a long story. i know you're trying to be optimistic. but it's a below average match. read the rest of that thread for more info.

 

[psychgirrrl]

You are right with your facts, but again you are extreme in your interpretation and predictions with them. Its actually really simple, either party will increase spending if there is a huge increase in schools as was discussed earlier.

Republicans don't hate medicare and Dems don't hate doctors...BOTH sides just like to be elected, so they talk and debate and make promises to appeal to their constituents. This is not new. 'NO NEW TAXES"- usually means Im trying to get the republican vote-but when Im in office, Ill raise taxes if needed. This is the same for any spending





this is a good example

My opinion is that physicians as individuals may not have a lot of political power (can't form superpacs due to economic reasons) but as a whole we sure have a lot of political power. It seems though that we take on a lot of crap silently but this does not have to be the case. Like everything else, everyone is quiet until a crisis starts and when it starts people come together and fight for solutions. Well, at least that's my experience. We can unite and put our patients on our side, our communities on our side and most importantly stand up for each other regardless of the letters after our name. I don't think MDs are better trained than DOs or vice-versa. We have to put our differences aside and stand up for medical education as a whole and for our patients who need us to take care of them.

 

[deleted103644]

primary argument for a PD to take a US MD over a IMG/FMG MD/MBBS regardless of board score, is that the latter finished their studies outside the US and are now hoping to leech off tax payer money funded residency spots.

i don't think its really an issue of licensing or accreditation (see TCMC which was on probation for only about 6 months by the LCME). both the COCA and LCME have problems with individual MD/DO schools. i agree the for-profit thing is a mess on the COCA side. maybe rvu will be forced to convert into a non-profit corp? who knows and who cares unless one is an rvu student. its not really an issue of cheapening the DO degree. all degrees are cheapened these days...MD degrees are available online for offshore degree mills

This is an argument I see on SDN a lot, but I haven't seen it in any official statements. Usually the concern is lax standards.

There's also a problem with the taxpayer funding argument: most of those Caribbean MDs are US citizens anyway. Why should they be less deserving of US tax money than a foreigner going to a US MD or DO school? I don't think this is a good argument in general, but even if you take it for granted it isn't a clear cut case against the Caribbean MD grads.

 

[HalfListic]

it's a long story. i know you're trying to be optimistic. but it's a below average match. read the rest of that thread for more info.

I'm trying to be objective too, I mean, I thought most DO schools had similar beginnings...I don't think any new school is above average. right? (and like it was pointed out, they even had a couple Ortho surgeons and an ENT, so not everyone shuns RVU it seems).

But yes I'll read the rest of the thread. :thumb up:

edit: I read it and still think the same. This was a good start to what could become one of the better DO schools. Its true that there will be drama over the for profit business, but the same could be said about DO students 10 years ago or less.

My opinion is that physicians as individuals may not have a lot of political power (can't form superpacs due to economic reasons) but as a whole we sure have a lot of political power. It seems though that we take on a lot of crap silently but this does not have to be the case. Like everything else, everyone is quiet until a crisis starts and when it starts people come together and fight for solutions. Well, at least that's my experience. We can unite and put our patients on our side, our communities on our side and most importantly stand up for each other regardless of the letters after our name. I don't think MDs are better trained than DOs or vice-versa. We have to put our differences aside and stand up for medical education as a whole and for our patients who need us to take care of them.

This is very true and has been my experience as well. Even as a small group of undergrads, I was able to help organized and gain gov't funding for a statewide Autism program in my state. I think a lot of SDNers are a bit pessimistic or inexperienced about what they actually can achieve, which is a bit sad.

So, I am glad you have had similar experiences and know the power of a group of like minded professionals. Thats really how things get done! There is PLENTY of money, everywhere, even when we are "in debt"

 

[donkeykong1]

This is an argument I see on SDN a lot, but I haven't seen it in any official statements. Usually the concern is lax standards.

There's also a problem with the taxpayer funding argument: most of those Caribbean MDs are US citizens anyway. Why should they be less deserving of US tax money than a foreigner going to a US MD or DO school? I don't think this is a good argument in general, but even if you take it for granted it isn't a clear cut case against the Caribbean MD grads.

Its extremely difficult for a foreign student to get into a US MD/DO school let alone stay around for the acgme/aoa match. the point about caribMDs being US citizens is well taken and yeah its not clear cut since PDs aren't all like-minded but that's the main argument i've heard of so far.

 

[psychgirrrl]

This is very true and has been my experience as well. Even as a small group of undergrads, I was able to help organized and gain gov't funding for a statewide Autism program in my state. I think a lot of SDNers are a bit pessimistic or inexperienced about what they actually can achieve, which is a bit sad.

So, I am glad you have had similar experiences and know the power of a group of like minded professionals. Thats really how things get done! There is PLENTY of money, everywhere, even when we are "in debt"

You are a cool dude (?are you a dude?)

I appreciate your optimism and it seems that a lot of people going into this field are cup half empty kind of people. We have to be optimistic but keep reality on our side as well. I worked in the Autism field for 3 years surrounded by lots of hardship, we take pride in small victories and keep up the fight everyday!

About the "debt" I am on your side as well citing debt as a reason to gut education is inexcusable and again if we, the people want something we can get it with enough organization and perseverance. Of course there will be struggles but things will work it is in the public's interest for medical students to finish their education and practice in this country.

 

[HalfListic]

You are a cool dude (?are you a dude?)

I appreciate your optimism and it seems that a lot of people going into this field are cup half empty kind of people. We have to be optimistic but keep reality on our side as well. I worked in the Autism field for 3 years surrounded by lots of hardship, we take pride in small victories and keep up the fight everyday!

About the "debt" I am on your side as well citing debt as a reason to gut education is inexcusable and again if we, the people want something we can get it with enough organization and perseverance. Of course there will be struggles but things will work it is in the public's interest for medical students to finish their education and practice in this country.

yes, a dude-thanks for guessing correctly and its good to have another optimist on SDN (which seems to be heavy of the "realist" side)

Woking in Autism has a lot of ups and downs, so nice work sticking it out. Ive loved it too and hope to continue in the field either professionally or at least through volunteer depending on where my medical degree takes me.