DO; to remain separate or merge with MD?

[deleted103644]

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Doubtful.

Have I said anything dishonest in this thread?

Also, no that's not how it works. If you want anyone to take you seriously, learn how to debate your views as an adult. Otherwise, practice self control...just because you see something at the top of your list doesn't mean you have to click it.

I have stated the facts as I see them. Just because something is potentially offensive to those who take OMM seriously does not change its veracity.

As for the participated tab - start a new thread and I won't participate. But this one will keep showing up, and if I'm called out or someone says something silly, I'll probably respond.

 

[NonTraditional3]

....and that's why they call him Johnny Drama!

 

[deleted103644]

....and that's why they call him Johnny Drama!

Haha, yes, I know. I need to change my username. It's very dated and I didn't even like any of the later seasons.

 

[Mehd School]

Whew.

Johnny just keeps on whistling the same tune. We get it. We all get it.

 

[psychgirrrl]

Whew.

Johnny just keeps on whistling the same tune. We get it. We all get it.

I was just going to write the same thing. Johnny, we can just all watch scrubs together (the first seasons) and not talk about OMM, politics, sex or religion and everything will be just fine. 😛

 

[deleted103644]

I was just going to write the same thing. Johnny, we can just all watch scrubs together (the first seasons) and not talk about OMM, politics, sex or religion and everything will be just fine. 😛

Haha, I'm sure we could all get along fine in the real world.

But on a thread about combining DO and MD degrees, you've got to expect someone will call out OMM for being a bit looney (it is).

And what's wrong with a discussion of sex? If you guys are going to insist on performing OMM on people, you might as well include a happy ending. 😛

 

[HalfListic]

I have stated the facts as I see them. Just because something is potentially offensive to those who take OMM seriously does not change its veracity.

.

Do I really need to explain this one more time? Johnny. Listen. No one objects to you saying something against OMM, AT Still or God himself! You can even have a negative opinion about my mom and I wouldn't care.

It's HOW you share your opinion. Get it? Its HOW you share your opinion. Understand? Not what. Not why. You get it now right?

If you want to critique OMM, great. I'll help you. here's how to do it. "OMM was created a long time ago and I can't see it's merit. I mean, it see,s like it's based in pseudoscience and that DO students are forced not only to learn this, but even more buzzard things like phrenology. I think that since the only difference between DO and MD is basically outdated therapies of questionable scientific base as well as continued praise of a man whose philosophy I can't find merit in, the DO schools should all be switched to MD schools." (this is basically what I gather your opinions are...but reguadless, this is a good way to share them)

The I could respond ad say something like, "while I agree that there may be some points in osteopathic education, such as phrenology, that seem pretty soft in the science department, OMM has actually been a pretty useful tool for some physicians I have known. And from what I hear, phrenology is taught mostly as a historical point in many of the schools today. I would love to see some more clinical studies to test the utility of OMM, but from what has been done and from my personal experience, I think it is a great complimentary tool, to accompany any other treatment available to physicians in this modern era. As for dissolving DO schools, I think that is a bit too drastic. Osteopathic medicine is a rich piece of medical history, but even more it is a relevant part of modern medicine! DOs came from a school of thought that took on what they thought was a glitch in their contemporary medial society. Led by AT Still, they had the guts to buck tradition and attempt to steer medicine to less invasive, more patient centered practices and this philosophy guides DOs still today. We will always strive to be cutting edge and to use all the advantages of modern medicine, but there will also be a goal to treat each patient holistically and as minimally invasive as possible, as to give the body a chance to utilize its natural healing capabilities. DOs are a team with our patients, and we recognize that many good MDs choose to practice the same way, which is great. So, in light of that, tossing aside the DO identity completely is both unlikely and undesirable to most DOs. One option would be for schools to offer a combined degree, such as MD, DO since we are all medical doctors, but DOs would have a diploma in osteopathic practices as well. That diploma could be opened to MDs as well, here's a link with more info..."

You: "I hear you, and I've read your link but I still think we're going to disagree on this. I have pretty strong feelings about OMM, here's why..."


Isn't this more productive?

Edit: and then we watch scrubs and give each other some OMM

 

[psychgirrrl]

Haha, I'm sure we could all get along fine in the real world.

But on a thread about combining DO and MD degrees, you've got to expect someone will call out OMM for being a bit looney (it is).

And what's wrong with a discussion of sex? If you guys are going to insist on performing OMM on people, you might as well include a happy ending. 😛

Nothing wrong with discussing sex, it's just often very controversial.

Now Johnny, if I was in the business of happy endings I wouldn't be buried in books and have a lot more friends and money than I currently do.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Like I've said before, Johnny is a bit too forceful and what not, but he's a doctor not a politican so that's fine. He's fundamentally speaking the truth, we need to work towards a unified agency for a single degree and a single match and etc.

 

[Iliketoytles]

You have all upset them by continuing this banter.

 

[HalfListic]

Like I've said before, Johnny is a bit too forceful and what not, but he's a doctor not a politican so that's fine. He's fundamentally speaking the truth, we need to work towards a unified agency for a single degree and a single match and etc.

Yes, agreed. But what we are trying to teach Johnny is that when you try to punch someone with your words, they usually don't join your team afterwards. They will become defensive, or even fight back. If he wants to help combine the medical world, I think it's would be more effective to behave more diplomatically. Otherwise, you're just being an instigator.

I like Johnny's input, even of I don't agree with some of it... so I hope he chooses to stick around.

 

[HalfListic]

You have all upset them by continuing this banter.

Dammit, see now look what you guys have done

 

[COMedic2Doc]

Dammit, see now look what you guys have done

LOL yup, figured this one would be well on it's way to being pronounced (dead for those not following the current trend) by now....

 

[donkeykong1]

here's a long thread from a while back discussing OMM in the allopathic forums for anyone interested

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=721459

 

[aspDO]

Like I've said before, Johnny is a bit too forceful and what not, but he's a doctor not a politican so that's fine. He's fundamentally speaking the truth, we need to work towards a unified agency for a single degree and a single match and etc.

+1 👍

After reading "The DOs: Osteopathic Medicine in America" by Norman Gevitz, 2nd edition, The Johns Hopkins University Press, now I kinda understand the story, and more importantly the politics, behind DO and MD discussion.

Below are what I felt like after reading the book:

1) It's unfortunate that the ignorant attitude of Dr.Still against merging to the greater MD-world in time due to his great pride of his medical "invention" (OMM), which caused DOs a big self-identification problem today. But, I admit that he couldn't have predicted the handicap of public's perception of the DO for more than 125 years ago.

2) Things have changed, even the "chiropractors" started naming themselves as doctors (DC) today, which makes it harder to explain how a DO is different from other medical professions.

3) A unified title is definitely needed for graduates of American medical schools, MD & DO, which should exclude all non-American titles including Caribbean and international medical schools to keep the medical profession in America safe and under control. OMM is a good technique that should be a part of all American medical schools, be it elective or not. MD students can learn it as an elective rotation, whereas for DO students it could be a compulsory rotation.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

+1 👍

After reading "The DOs: Osteopathic Medicine in America" by Norman Gevitz, 2nd edition, The Johns Hopkins University Press, now I kinda understand the story, and more importantly the politics, behind DO and MD discussion.

Below are what I felt like after reading the book:

1) It's unfortunate that the ignorant attitude of Dr.Still against merging to the greater MD-world in time due to his great pride of his medical "invention" (OMM), which caused DOs a big self-identification problem today. But, I admit that he couldn't have predicted the handicap of public's perception of the DO for more than 125 years ago.

2) Things have changed, even the "chiropractors" started naming themselves as doctors (DC) today, which makes it harder to explain how a DO is different from other medical professions.

3) A unified title is definitely needed for graduates of American medical schools, MD & DO, which should exclude all non-American titles including Caribbean and international medical schools to keep the medical profession in America safe and under control. OMM is a good technique that should be a part of all American medical schools, be it elective or not. MD students can learn it as an elective rotation, whereas for DO students it could be a compulsory rotation.

I don't blame A.T Still, he thought he was doing a good thing and in that time he may have saved many with OMM as opposed to using Mg. However I believe that the progress of DO's from the 50's has been leading up to the eventual merger of the DO degree and the MD degree and the eventual creation of simply the MD being the general medical degree and the old DO schools providing opportunities to get a DO.

 

[deleted103644]

OMM is a good technique that should be a part of all American medical schools, be it elective or not. MD students can learn it as an elective rotation, whereas for DO students it could be a compulsory rotation.

 

[HalfListic]

i don't blame a.t still, he thought he was doing a good thing and in that time he may have saved many with omm as opposed to using mg. However i believe that the progress of do's from the 50's has been leading up to the eventual merger of the do degree and the md degree and the eventual creation of simply the md being the general medical degree and the old do schools providing opportunities to get a do.

+1

 

[WorldChanger36]

I honestly don't think the two systems should merge. They have two different histories and two different stories. Both have made mistakes and have learned a lot from each other. Both need to be recognized as equals worldwide and both need to be held to the same expectations and criteria. The AOA and AMA need to merge their two accreditation boards for both medical schools and residencies and that is about all the merging that needs to happen. No for profit schools and strong affiliations with all kinds of healthcare networks and hospitals need to be required.

My two cents

 

[aspDO]

I honestly don't think the two systems should merge. They have two different histories and two different stories. Both have made mistakes and have learned a lot from each other. Both need to be recognized as equals worldwide and both need to be held to the same expectations and criteria. The AOA and AMA need to merge their two accreditation boards for both medical schools and residencies and that is about all the merging that needs to happen. No for profit schools and strong affiliations with all kinds of healthcare networks and hospitals need to be required.

My two cents

Unfortunately, they're not recognized as equals. Guess who is the losing side in the long run.

 

[aspDO]

 

[HalfListic]

I honestly don't think the two systems should merge. They have two different histories and two different stories. Both have made mistakes and have learned a lot from each other. Both need to be recognized as equals worldwide and both need to be held to the same expectations and criteria. The AOA and AMA need to merge their two accreditation boards for both medical schools and residencies and that is about all the merging that needs to happen. No for profit schools and strong affiliations with all kinds of healthcare networks and hospitals need to be required.

My two cents

Id actually LOVE for this to be the reality, but I think that aspDO is right here.

Unfortunately, they're not recognized as equals. Guess who is the losing side in the long run.

 

[se20001984]

👍

+1 👍

After reading "The DOs: Osteopathic Medicine in America" by Norman Gevitz, 2nd edition, The Johns Hopkins University Press, now I kinda understand the story, and more importantly the politics, behind DO and MD discussion.

Below are what I felt like after reading the book:

1) It's unfortunate that the ignorant attitude of Dr.Still against merging to the greater MD-world in time due to his great pride of his medical "invention" (OMM), which caused DOs a big self-identification problem today. But, I admit that he couldn't have predicted the handicap of public's perception of the DO for more than 125 years ago.

2) Things have changed, even the "chiropractors" started naming themselves as doctors (DC) today, which makes it harder to explain how a DO is different from other medical professions.

3) A unified title is definitely needed for graduates of American medical schools, MD & DO, which should exclude all non-American titles including Caribbean and international medical schools to keep the medical profession in America safe and under control. OMM is a good technique that should be a part of all American medical schools, be it elective or not. MD students can learn it as an elective rotation, whereas for DO students it could be a compulsory rotation.

 

[TXKnight]

+1 👍

After reading "The DOs: Osteopathic Medicine in America" by Norman Gevitz, 2nd edition, The Johns Hopkins University Press, now I kinda understand the story, and more importantly the politics, behind DO and MD discussion.

Below are what I felt like after reading the book:

1) It's unfortunate that the ignorant attitude of Dr.Still against merging to the greater MD-world in time due to his great pride of his medical "invention" (OMM), which caused DOs a big self-identification problem today. But, I admit that he couldn't have predicted the handicap of public's perception of the DO for more than 125 years ago.

2) Things have changed, even the "chiropractors" started naming themselves as doctors (DC) today, which makes it harder to explain how a DO is different from other medical professions.

3) A unified title is definitely needed for graduates of American medical schools, MD & DO, which should exclude all non-American titles including Caribbean and international medical schools to keep the medical profession in America safe and under control. OMM is a good technique that should be a part of all American medical schools, be it elective or not. MD students can learn it as an elective rotation, whereas for DO students it could be a compulsory rotation.

After reading this book I have these thoughts:

1- I think you take history in a vacuum. You are taking a snapshot and then try to insert in the present without the original framework. The orthodox (and the rest of them for that matter) practitioners had no idea about half of what they were doing, bloodletting, crazy adjuvants and many other things that would indeed harm the patient. How can Dr. Still have had an "ignorant attitude" when his techniques did indeed help the patients, many of them. You read that in the book, so you should know. You argue OMM has caused DO's a big self identification problem, but the problem with that is that OMM is one important part of DO's self identification itself.

2- Not isolated to DO's. True to any physician, read the resident and other forums and see how many NP's, PA's, DNP's and other providers, call themselves doctors. This causes confusion in the genreal public.

3- Contradicting points.
a) unified titles to " keep the medical profession in America safe and under control" safe from whom? under control? are there not boards and other safeguards to keep it safe and reliable? under control? how is not under control now? why is it unsafe? do we not have reliable boards and other accreditation?
b) The unified title you suggest negates your suggestion about OMM "MD students can learn it as an elective rotation, whereas for DO students it could be a compulsory rotation"

In short, I think you an issue against the title and nothing else. There are real identification problems, but those stem from varied sources including the lack of knowledge of the public and the role of OMM in real practice. I can elaborate, but it's beyond the point.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

After reading this book I have these thoughts:

1- I think you take history in a vacuum. You are taking a snapshot and then try to insert in the present without the original framework. The orthodox (and the rest of them for that matter) practitioners had no idea about half of what they were doing, bloodletting, crazy adjuvants and many other things that would indeed harm the patient. How can Dr. Still have had an "ignorant attitude" when his techniques did indeed help the patients, many of them. You read that in the book, so you should know. You argue OMM has caused DO's a big self identification problem, but the problem with that is that OMM is one important part of DO's self identification itself.

2- Not isolated to DO's. True to any physician, read the resident and other forums and see how many NP's, PA's, DNP's and other providers, call themselves doctors. This causes confusion in the genreal public.

3- Contradicting points.
a) unified titles to " keep the medical profession in America safe and under control" safe from whom? under control? are there not boards and other safeguards to keep it safe and reliable? under control? how is not under control now? why is it unsafe? do we not have reliable boards and other accreditation?
b) The unified title you suggest negates your suggestion about OMM "MD students can learn it as an elective rotation, whereas for DO students it could be a compulsory rotation"

In short, I think you an issue against the title and nothing else. There are real identification problems, but those stem from varied sources including the lack of knowledge of the public and the role of OMM in real practice. I can elaborate, but it's beyond the point.

We have two seperate standards LCME/ACGME & USMLE v.s COCA/AOA & COMLEX. The latter is less reliable than the former in many regards. Having the LCME standards and the USMLE become the main environment for DO students while maybe keeping a separate standardized test for OMM is the ideal situation.
Personally I don't think the title is the issue here. The issue is that your degree is constantly being tied and associated with an enormous amount of crap, either by virtue of the AOA's stubbornness and inability to change, or the COCA accrediting what can be called only be called stand alone shacks that are barely qualified to educate students beyond second year. The reality is that if COCA continues to opperate under a walmart style of opperation, the AOA continues to block even the most basic of changes in the curriculum or in making residency quality go up, then the DO degree will be as big a joke as the Carib MD.

Finally OMM's role in a real practice is limited to pain relief. Which for most physicians is a limited tool, since they are more likely to refer you to a PT, who will do the actual work instead of the doctor wasting time and money when he could be seeing other patients who are likely irritably waiting.

 

[aspDO]

After reading this book I have these thoughts:

1- I think you take history in a vacuum. You are taking a snapshot and then try to insert in the present without the original framework. The orthodox (and the rest of them for that matter) practitioners had no idea about half of what they were doing, bloodletting, crazy adjuvants and many other things that would indeed harm the patient. How can Dr. Still have had an "ignorant attitude" when his techniques did indeed help the patients, many of them. You read that in the book, so you should know. You argue OMM has caused DO's a big self identification problem, but the problem with that is that OMM is one important part of DO's self identification itself.

2- Not isolated to DO's. True to any physician, read the resident and other forums and see how many NP's, PA's, DNP's and other providers, call themselves doctors. This causes confusion in the genreal public.

3- Contradicting points.
a) unified titles to " keep the medical profession in America safe and under control" safe from whom? under control? are there not boards and other safeguards to keep it safe and reliable? under control? how is not under control now? why is it unsafe? do we not have reliable boards and other accreditation?
b) The unified title you suggest negates your suggestion about OMM "MD students can learn it as an elective rotation, whereas for DO students it could be a compulsory rotation"

In short, I think you an issue against the title and nothing else. There are real identification problems, but those stem from varied sources including the lack of knowledge of the public and the role of OMM in real practice. I can elaborate, but it's beyond the point.

1) Even many of his students told him to change the name to MD due to the identification problem of DOs. He only took them as "trojan horses" who wanted to spoil his "sacred" profession. Then, as in the California case, many successful DOs just escaped to the MD world, but continued using their OMM skills in healing people even as MDs. Time has changed quite a bit since then, and things are getting harder to explain yourself to general public as a DO in an MD world. Is it really that hard to melt the OMM ego in the pool of medicine like a piece of ice, but in return, gain the whole pool itself?

2) Actually, it's always been solely isolated to DO-MD discussion. Honestly, have you ever heard of any discussion between a "nurse" and a "nurse + OMM"? If you read that part of the history of medicine in America, then you'd have seen that chiropractors earned the name "Doctor of Chiropractor" (DC) title after just imitating OMM techniques from the DOs. It's a sad story about the father DD and son BJ, who killed his father to get the whole share of the DC world. In that turmoil, a visionary person should have seen the incoming threat to his invention (OMM), and should have found ways to merge to MD world to keep his invention safe. OMM's value has been discussed in the medical world, and some part of it seem like working, whereas some don't. There've been many things changed in the MD world, which used to be harmful to patients, but the whole profession evolved and thus stayed strong, now getting stronger. There's no way to change this fact. It's a desperate fight against them. And, for the God's sake, why fighting them? We're not living in an America of 125 years ago.

3) I'm leaving this discussion to FMG world. It's deep and full of politics, which I pretend to stop saying only that much and stop talking. I'd recommend you the same, too.

 

[HalfListic]

1) Even many of his students told him to change the name to MD due to the identification problem of DOs. He only took them as "trojan horses" who wanted to spoil his "sacred" profession. Then, as in the California case, many successful DOs just escaped to the MD world, but continued using their OMM skills in healing people even as MDs. Time has changed quite a bit since then, and things are getting harder to explain yourself to general public as a DO in an MD world. Is it really that hard to melt the OMM ego in the pool of medicine like a piece of ice, but in return, gain the whole pool itself?

2) Actually, it's always been solely isolated to DO-MD discussion. Honestly, have you ever heard of any discussion between a "nurse" and a "nurse + OMM"? If you read that part of the history of medicine in America, then you'd have seen that chiropractors earned the name "Doctor of Chiropractor" (DC) title after just imitating OMM techniques from the DOs. It's a sad story about the father DD and son BJ, who killed his father to get the whole share of the DC world. In that turmoil, a visionary person should have seen the incoming threat to his invention (OMM), and should have found ways to merge to MD world to keep his invention safe. OMM's value has been discussed in the medical world, and some part of it seem like working, whereas some don't. There've been many things changed in the MD world, which used to be harmful to patients, but the whole profession evolved and thus stayed strong, now getting stronger. There's no way to change this fact. It's a desperate fight against them. And, for the God's sake, why fighting them? We're not living in an America of 125 years ago.

3) I'm leaving this discussion to FMG world. It's deep and full of politics, which I pretend to stop saying only that much and stop talking. I'd recommend you the same, too.

I really enjoyed your #1 and #2 thoughts...thanks for sharing them. I think your question "why" is the heart of the issue...

 

[TXKnight]

We have two seperate standards LCME/ACGME & USMLE v.s COCA/AOA & COMLEX. The latter is less reliable than the former in many regards. Having the LCME standards and the USMLE become the main environment for DO students while maybe keeping a separate standardized test for OMM is the ideal situation.
Personally I don't think the title is the issue here. The issue is that your degree is constantly being tied and associated with an enormous amount of crap, either by virtue of the AOA's stubbornness and inability to change, or the COCA accrediting what can be called only be called stand alone shacks that are barely qualified to educate students beyond second year. The reality is that if COCA continues to opperate under a walmart style of opperation, the AOA continues to block even the most basic of changes in the curriculum or in making residency quality go up, then the DO degree will be as big a joke as the Carib MD.

Finally OMM's role in a real practice is limited to pain relief. Which for most physicians is a limited tool, since they are more likely to refer you to a PT, who will do the actual work instead of the doctor wasting time and money when he could be seeing other patients who are likely irritably waiting.

I'm not saying everything is perfect, I just pointed out inconsistencies in OP's argument, though OP and you have valid points
I agree with those bolded points.
I personally don't care about the DO/MD title much. I plan to get in MD or DO, study hard, get the best boards i can get and move on to be the best doc I can be. I happen to be a non-trad and to like the idea of focusing in the underserved and also frontier medicine, which is kind of a "niche" for DO's so I can care less of title wars.
Funny thing is that all the attendings (MD/DO) I've talked to can care less about the title itself, and do not think of the other a "less" qualified. Now I've heard the older guard is different.
Your point is well taken.👍

 

[TXKnight]

1) Even many of his students told him to change the name to MD due to the identification problem of DOs. He only took them as "trojan horses" who wanted to spoil his "sacred" profession. Then, as in the California case, many successful DOs just escaped to the MD world, but continued using their OMM skills in healing people even as MDs. Time has changed quite a bit since then, and things are getting harder to explain yourself to general public as a DO in an MD world. Is it really that hard to melt the OMM ego in the pool of medicine like a piece of ice, but in return, gain the whole pool itself?

2) Actually, it's always been solely isolated to DO-MD discussion. Honestly, have you ever heard of any discussion between a "nurse" and a "nurse + OMM"? If you read that part of the history of medicine in America, then you'd have seen that chiropractors earned the name "Doctor of Chiropractor" (DC) title after just imitating OMM techniques from the DOs. It's a sad story about the father DD and son BJ, who killed his father to get the whole share of the DC world. In that turmoil, a visionary person should have seen the incoming threat to his invention (OMM), and should have found ways to merge to MD world to keep his invention safe. OMM's value has been discussed in the medical world, and some part of it seem like working, whereas some don't. There've been many things changed in the MD world, which used to be harmful to patients, but the whole profession evolved and thus stayed strong, now getting stronger. There's no way to change this fact. It's a desperate fight against them. And, for the God's sake, why fighting them? We're not living in an America of 125 years ago.

3) I'm leaving this discussion to FMG world. It's deep and full of politics, which I pretend to stop saying only that much and stop talking. I'd recommend you the same, too.

There's plenty of info here on sdn about this problem (title wars) in the allopathic/resident forums. Go check it out, I'm too lazy to get the links for you.

You failed to mention that the many DO's that "escaped" (as you present it) their DO degree for an MD actually did not see those great benefits they expected. Except maybe the psychological satisfaction and the benefit to not having to explain what a DO can do. I don't have a copy of the book on me right now, when I have the book handy I'll get the page number for you.

Now, you present some valid points, but don't invalidate the whole profession on the assumption that Dr. Still's "ignorance" is the source of the doom of DO's. After all, there's always an MD school that you can apply to.

 

[UCFKnight]

Johnnydrama makes me laugh. Ignorance is bliss. Ask why Mr. Drama and I will be sure to elaborate.

 

[aspDO]

There's plenty of info here on sdn about this problem (title wars) in the allopathic/resident forums. Go check it out, I'm too lazy to get the links for you.

You failed to mention that the many DO's that "escaped" (as you present it) their DO degree for an MD actually did not see those great benefits they expected. Except maybe the psychological satisfaction and the benefit to not having to explain what a DO can do. I don't have a copy of the book on me right now, when I have the book handy I'll get the page number for you.

Now, you present some valid points, but don't invalidate the whole profession on the assumption that Dr. Still's "ignorance" is the source of the doom of DO's. After all, there's always an MD school that you can apply to.

Actually, there used to be a Floor#1 dedicated to all MDs, and a Floor#2 dedicated to all DOs, at the same hospital in Los Angeles. And, those "many" DOs used to do great with their OMM skills. They were legends at the time. People were flooding to Los Angeles to get healed via those DOs. However, the rapid changes in the healthcare business, including HMOs, PPOs, etc. had put extra parameters in their equation as well as MDs' jealousy against their reputation. When things got tougher as time passed, AOA did nothing to prove that a DO = MD + OMM, which caused many DOs to find a sag-way to keep their career going, and they eventually converted. IMHO, the shame isn't on them, but AOA.

 

[TXKnight]

Actually, there used to be a Floor#1 dedicated to all MDs, and a Floor#2 dedicated to all DOs, at the same hospital in Los Angeles. And, those "many" DOs used to do great with their OMM skills. They were legends at the time. People were flooding to Los Angeles to get healed via those DOs. However, the rapid changes in the healthcare business, including HMOs, PPOs, etc. had put extra parameters in their equation as well as MDs' jealousy against their reputation. When things got tougher as time passed, AOA did nothing to prove that a DO = MD + OMM, which caused many DOs to find a sag-way to keep their career going, and they eventually converted. IMHO, the shame isn't on them, but AOA.

Well that really sucks.Good post. I think AOA should do more indeed.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Well that really sucks.Good post. I think AOA should do more indeed.

SDN is pretty much becoming the boiling pot of anti-AOA sentiments. It is quite beautiful, maybe we will manage to scare them a bit.

 

[TriagePreMed]

SDN is pretty much becoming the boiling pot of anti-AOA sentiments. It is quite beautiful, maybe we will manage to scare them a bit.

It's actually a bit ironic how the AOA/COCA are desperate to open so many programs to increase the Osteopathic presence that they don't see that in the long term these people are flooding in just to get a medical education and actually will be against the AOA and their power will diminish.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

It's actually a bit ironic how the AOA/COCA are desperate to open so many programs to increase the Osteopathic presence that they don't see that in the long term these people are flooding in just to get a medical education and actually will be against the AOA and their power will diminish.

No matter what they do the AOA will be hurt unless they peacefully allow for the general integration of the DO and MD and basically do what it takes to make DO students indistinguishable from low to mid tier MD students in the match. Furthermore if they continue to open up for-profit schools or schools that aren't physically connected to major hospitals like Alabama COM, or not require their schools to maintain an OPTI that can maintain at least half of their class ( Min) along with a few competitive specialties then they will also lose support.

 

[deleted103644]

SDN is pretty much becoming the boiling pot of anti-AOA sentiments. It is quite beautiful, maybe we will manage to scare them a bit.

SDN is the only reason many MD students even know what a DO is.

 

[deleted103644]

Johnnydrama makes me laugh. Ignorance is bliss. Ask why Mr. Drama and I will be sure to elaborate.

Enlighten me, you fount of osteopathic wisdom. Regale me with your tales of mighty OMM.

 

[iPhysician]

SDN is the only reason many MD students even know what a DO is.

You have some personal issues to work out.

You take pot shot after pot shot and have very little substance to any of your arguments. Don't you feel funny coming to a premed DO forum and spouting jargon?

 

[aspDO]

Here's my thought for a fair resolution:

Let MD and DO schools remain the same, even AOA may remain the same. Let ACGME start giving the "MD degree" at the end of its residency education, and AOA give "DO degree" at the end of its residency education.

Many FMGs coming from different parts of the world (India, China, Europe, Arabic countries, etc.) don't have an MD degree, at all. But, they gain it via ACGME residencies or even via fellowships. I had shadowed many physicians from Europe who did it this way. On the contrary, although DOs match to ACGME residencies like their FMG colleagues, they aren't given the MD degree. Why?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Here's my thought for a fair resolution:

Let MD and DO schools remain the same, even AOA may remain the same. Let ACGME start giving the "MD degree" at the end of its residency education, and AOA give "DO degree" at the end of its residency education.

Many FMGs coming from different parts of the world (India, China, Europe, Arabic countries, etc.) don't have an MD degree, at all. But, they gain it via ACGME residencies or even via fellowships. On the contrary, although DOs match to ACGME residencies like their FMG colleagues, they aren't given the MD degree. Why?

There's complication in that idea as some people after receiving their MD go onto be pharm reps or medical officers at NIH without any graduate training because they learn they cannot stand medicine. Within a degree at the end of medical school you produce a problem for many students. Otherwise the idea is nice.

 

[deleted103644]

You have some personal issues to work out.

You take pot shot after pot shot and have very little substance to any of your arguments. Don't you feel funny coming to a premed DO forum and spouting jargon?

I didn't really set out to post here. The iOS app defaults to unread messages without regards to forum. I saw something ridiculous and replied. Now this thread appears in my participated section too.

As for my arguments, which ones do you object to?

 

[aspDO]

There's complication in that idea as some people after receiving their MD go onto be pharm reps or medical officers at NIH without any graduate training because they learn they cannot stand medicine. Within a degree at the end of medical school you produce a problem for many students. Otherwise the idea is nice.

Here's my thought for a fair resolution:

Let MD and DO schools remain the same, even AOA may remain the same. Let ACGME start giving the "MD degree" at the end of its residency education, and AOA give "DO degree" at the end of its residency education.

Many FMGs coming from different parts of the world (India, China, Europe, Arabic countries, etc.) don't have an MD degree, at all. But, they gain it via ACGME residencies or even via fellowships. I had shadowed many physicians from Europe who did it this way. On the contrary, although DOs match to ACGME residencies like their FMG colleagues, they aren't given the MD degree. Why?

I'm not telling not to let MD/DO schools give MD/DO degrees. Let them continue to give it. But, let also the ACGME give the "MD title" after its residency training, as well as AOA to give the "DO title".

Foreign medical graduates come to US for residency and fellowship training. They carry with them many different naming conventions for their medical degrees. But, at the end of their ACGME residency training, they are given the "MD title". Why a DO cannot be given an MD title at the end of an ACGME residency training? A DO isn't taught any OMM or DO specific training during an ACGME residency program. So, it's nothing to do with AOA but ACGME.

 

[HalfListic]

I'm not telling not to let MD/DO schools give MD/DO degrees. Let them continue to give it. But, let also the ACGME give the "MD title" after its residency training, as well as AOA to give the "DO title".

Foreign medical graduates come to US for residency and fellowship training. They carry with them many different naming conventions for their medical degrees. But, at the end of their ACGME residency training, they are given the "MD title". Why a DO cannot be given an MD title at the end of an ACGME residency training? A DO isn't taught any OMM or DO specific training during an ACGME residency program. So, it's nothing to do with AOA but ACGME.

If its true about the foreign students, then I don't see the problem with this line of thought. maybe Im missing something too? But seems like another decent idea...

 

[aspDO]

If its true about the foreign students, then I don't see the problem with this line of thought. maybe Im missing something too? But seems like another decent idea...

Foreign medical graduates even have to go through an equivalency process via ECFMG organization before applying to residency programs. Caribbean medical school graduates, too. But, they're given the "MD title" at the end. I shadowed several attending physicians who went through this process and were given the "MD title" in the USA. I wanna be given the same (or a better) opportunity as a DO to choose my title after my ACGME residency as the foreign medical graduates were.

 

[sylvanthus]

Foreign medical graduates even have to go through an equivalency process via ECFMG organization before applying to residency programs. Caribbean medical school graduates, too. But, they're given the "MD title" at the end. I shadowed several attending physicians who went through this process and were given the "MD title" in the USA. I wanna be given the same (or a better) opportunity as a DO to choose my title after my ACGME residency as the foreign medical graduates were.

I think that is entirely reasonable.

 

[deleted103644]

Foreign medical graduates even have to go through an equivalency process via ECFMG organization before applying to residency programs. Caribbean medical school graduates, too. But, they're given the "MD title" at the end. I shadowed several attending physicians who went through this process and were given the "MD title" in the USA. I wanna be given the same (or a better) opportunity as a DO to choose my title after my ACGME residency as the foreign medical graduates were.

Why even bother keeping the degrees separate then? Just switch all DO programs to MD (and lump the DO pseudoscience with CAM BS so it can all be jettisoned together).

 

[sylvanthus]

The AOA will never give up the power/money. The least they can do is give us the option to do what FMG/IMGs do when they attend an MD residency.

 

[PBLI4M]

In an effort to stimulate some thought provoking discussion here, Id like to present this question that has been debated for a long time and continues to be a point of question among pre-meds, med students, physicians, etc.

As future DOs, its obviously important not only to know the history or Osteopathic medicine, but of all medicine. And not only to know the history, but to also put thought into how we will shape the future of medicine. Will you fight to absolve the DO degree and have the schools convert to allopathic? Or will you seek to distinguish DOs as peers in medicine and leaders in patient care? Or will you sit back and let others decide? Why?

So what do you think? I have an opinion on the matter that I will share after things get rolling so that I don't introduce any bias. ***One request is that we keep it professional and respectful. For the bulk of your comment, try to explain your opinion rather than critique other opinions. Keep it classy SDN 😎*** (if possible, state if you are pre DO, MD, current student, or current physician)

They have already tried merging them once in the past, obviously failing. However, I do believe once the D.O. profession becomes as significant as M.D., we will see the beginning of the change.

 

[HalfListic]

They have already tried merging them once in the past, obviously failing. However, I do believe once the D.O. profession becomes as significant as M.D., we will see the beginning of the change.

Yeah, I posted an article about it earlier in the thread...

I'm not totally sold on the idea, but it something to think about.

Also, what do you mean by significant?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The AOA will never give up the power/money. The least they can do is give us the option to do what FMG/IMGs do when they attend an MD residency.

And that is?