DO unfriendly NY programs?

[LadyGrey]

Just to ward off accusations of bitterness, I'm very satisfied with the interviews that I've got, and accept that maybe I just didn't make the numbers cutoff at the programs that rejected me.

But I haven't ruled out the alternate hypothesis that the programs where I won't be interviewing just don't consider DOs. I still think that DO students shouldn't be too obsessed with this, and should just apply to where they'd consider going, but I'm wondering what other osteopathic applicants' experiences have been with these programs:

NY Hospital Queens
NYU Bellevue
Mt. Sinai
NY Presbyterian

FWIW, I took both Step 1 & 2 of the USMLE, and have 2 digits of 99 on both, so if it was purely a numbers game, they're using some insane cutoffs. On interviews so far, I've gotten extremely positive feedback on my grades, LORs, and Dean's Letter. *shrug* Maybe this is true of lots of their applicants, and they turn away tons of people whose apps are the same as mine, but you can see why I'm starting to suspect that it could be a "DOs need not apply" policy, right?

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[turkdlit]

I second your suspicions Grey...I'm a 99 on Step 2, year off for research, perfect SLORs, concurrent MPH degree, 5+ publications...but a DO after my name earned me rejections from those 4 places as well.

It is what it is...

 

[Drawing Dead]

I know someone last year that got an interview with NY Hospital Queens, and I don't think her app. was spectactular. I do think she rotated there, which may have made the difference. Some places only interview who rotated at their program (allo and osteo).

The other 3 I'm not so sure about, really never heard anyone tell me they interviewed or matched there. The allo programs I am most familiar with matching DO's are Jacobi, Maimo, Lincoln, St. Lukes-Roosevelt, NSUH Manhasset (LI, not NYC I know).

 

[that dr. jack]

I'm a DO and interviewed at NYHQ last year. i had decidedly average stats but did have a prestigious research fellowship and a publication under my belt, so maybe that helped.

they were wonderful, very nice place and an overall great interview experience, but overall i didn't want to live in NYC that much so i ranked them like 8th or something, although higher than any of the other NYC places i interviewed.

 

[2009EM]

Also a DO student applying to NYC programs.

I have the same stats as ladygrey and have so far been rejected from NYPresby and NYHQ. I have an interview at Bellevue though I rotated there so not sure how much that plays into it. Haven't heard the official no from Mt. Sinai although it is late in the game and I am beginning to consider the silent rejection. Just throwing my two cents in

 

[LadyGrey]

Ah the silent rejection... I think I have a silent rejection from Northshore at this point.

Good to know about rotating at Bellevue. That's one useful thing about having an unofficial list of potentially unfriendly programs -- maybe future DO applicants could help their chances there by rotating at those places, rather than at places more likely to take them with or without an audition there.

 

[drguy22]

Also a DO student applying to NYC programs.

I have the same stats as ladygrey and have so far been rejected from NYPresby and NYHQ. I have an interview at Bellevue though I rotated there so not sure how much that plays into it. Haven't heard the official no from Mt. Sinai although it is late in the game and I am beginning to consider the silent rejection. Just throwing my two cents in

essentially everyone who rotates through Bellevue get an interview.

 

[turkdlit]

Also a DO student applying to NYC programs.

I have the same stats as ladygrey and have so far been rejected from NYPresby and NYHQ. I have an interview at Bellevue though I rotated there so not sure how much that plays into it. Haven't heard the official no from Mt. Sinai although it is late in the game and I am beginning to consider the silent rejection. Just throwing my two cents in

Didn't Mount Sinai have 2 unmatched positions in a recent match? Seems like they could use some of the quality DO applicants here

 

[Drawing Dead]

Didn't Mount Sinai have 2 unmatched positions in a recent match? Seems like they could use some of the quality DO applicants here

Yes, but they probably are very selective, and then fill the unmatched spots with other MDs that didn't get their highly competitive programs. The scramble process is less veiled, and programs can actually sit back and pick from the pool of unmatched applicants.

 

[roja]

I believe there was a thread not to long ago about Mt. Sinai and thier policy regarding DO's. If you try a search, it will probably pop up.

Being a DO does unfortunately take you out of the running for some programs. However, there are many great programs that recognize that there are good and bad within allopathic and osteopathic and won't care which initials are after your name.

I know it stings, (I rememer my own rejections) but it has little to do with you as a person.

sounds like you are doing well, and I would try and just focus on that.

 

[ggmk]

NYHQ has already pre-matched a DO applicant with low board scores for their up-coming class so they've filled their "quota." There are plenty of MD applicants with below average stats that are interviewing there and it's sad that NYHQ feels the need to prove themselves this way. If you do a search, there's also post by a NYHQ resident making arrogant comments about themselves and IMGs. I guess that's just how they roll over there and maybe it's better off that you don't end up working there. Of course they won't ever admit turning you down because you're DO, it's because you are not a "good fit" so Let them attract like-minded people that are.

The EM community usually prides itself as being down-to-earth compared to other specialtis and could care less about one's background/upbringing when evaluating someone. Unfortunately,I doubt programs like NYHQ will change soon because backward feelings and practices didn't change overnight with anything else throughout history. However It's comforting to know that in the case of NYHQ, change might happen sooner than later given the age of some of the leaders there.

I'd say DOs and IMGs just stop applying to programs like NYHQ/Mt Sinai/NY Pres...etc so they don't end up taking your application fees and insult your intelligence with "not a good fit." Let's see how they like seeing their number of applications drop. Oh yeah, and in Mt Sinai's case, scrambling with "the pool" of "quality" MD applicants, that in reality others don't want or didn't choose EM in the first place. That's really smart and competitive. I hope PDs like that sleep better at night knowing that they've done a great job at keep their programs pure from DOs and IMGs.

 

[Drawing Dead]

NYHQ has already pre-matched a DO applicant with low board scores for their up-coming class so they've filled their "quota." There are plenty of MD applicants with below average stats that are interviewing there and it's sad that NYHQ feels the need to prove themselves this way. If you do a search, there's also post by a NYHQ resident making arrogant comments about themselves and IMGs. I guess that's just how they roll over there and maybe it's better off that you don't end up working there. Of course they won't ever admit turning you down because you're DO, it's because you are not a "good fit" so Let them attract like-minded people that are.

The EM community usually prides itself as being down-to-earth compared to other specialtis and could care less about one's background/upbringing when evaluating someone. Unfortunately,I doubt programs like NYHQ will change soon because backward feelings and practices didn't change overnight with anything else throughout history. However It's comforting to know that in the case of NYHQ, change might happen sooner than later given the age of some of the leaders there.

I'd say DOs and IMGs just stop applying to programs like NYHQ/Mt Sinai/NY Pres...etc so they don't end up taking your application fees and insult your intelligence with "not a good fit." Let's see how they like seeing their number of applications drop. Oh yeah, and in Mt Sinai's case, scrambling with "the pool" of "quality" MD applicants, that in reality others don't want or didn't choose EM in the first place. That's really smart and competitive. I hope PDs like that sleep better at night knowing that they've done a great job at keep their programs pure from DOs and IMGs.

First of all, just take a deep breath and calm down. I understand this time of year is frustrating and leaves people a little more short tempered than usual. There is no reason to stop applying to these programs, especially since they get interviews at NYHQ and Bellvue if they rotate there, and supposedly a DO prematched to NYHQ. And whatever someone's "stats" are, what does that matter? The program wanted that person, and that's what they are looking for.

We as DO's have no right to even complain about MD programs not taking us, especially since no one but DO's can match osteo programs. Is this not hypocritical?

 

[ggmk]

We as DO's have no right to even complain about MD programs not taking us, especially since no one but DO's can match osteo programs. Is this not hypocritical?

Hypocritical? No. It's actually very different if you think about it.

Osteo PDs have no say in matching MD applicants or not. It's decided by the forces above them, most likely citing the difference in OMM training as a reason. Whether we agree with it or not, it's a more valid reason than taking your money and then calling you "not a good fit." If you don't agree with the forces above, take it up with them like plenty of DOs that already are.

The Allo PDs on the other hand, are responsible for every decision they personally make. It disgusts me if these decisions are made taken into any account of one's pedigree, including DOs, IMGs, state school, ivy league, boarding school, magnet school, home school...whatever, and EM doctors are supposed be the ones that don't even judge a patient's background or financial status, but they will judge a colleague or future physician by pedigree. That's hypocirtical, AND disgusting.

It's gets even more disgusting when PDs and residents play mind games with you and themselves, calling you "not a good fit," or having quotas based on pedigree, or feeling the need to explain why they ended up matching IMGs, all of this in attempt to make themselves fit into the self-perceived image of a "competitive" program. It's sad and tiring.

 

[LadyGrey]

turkdlit: I had the same thought about Sinai. The people left in the Scramble who actually want EM are people they already had the chance to rank (like DOs). The other Scrambling applicants are people who actually wanted to do something else -- wow, great pool.

It disgusts me if these decisions are made taken into any account of one's pedigree, including DOs, IMGs, state school, ivy league, boarding school, magnet school, home school...whatever, and EM doctors are supposed be the ones that don't even judge a patient's background or financial status, but they will judge a colleague or future physician by pedigree. That's hypocirtical, AND disgusting.

I think it's impossible to ignore pedigree entirely. I don't think it should be the exclusive way of judging an applicant, but it's going to inform someone's judgment in some way, and there's not much we can do about it. (Maybe some day I'll be a PD with my own unfair biases against, say, "snooty Ivy kids.")

It's gets even more disgusting when PDs and residents play mind games with you and themselves, calling you "not a good fit," or having quotas based on pedigree, or feeling the need to explain why they ended up matching IMGs, all of this in attempt to make themselves fit into the self-perceived image of a "competitive" program. It's sad and tiring.

I agree, it can be frustrating when you're in the undesirable category. But I can understand the PD's predicament, too. It's not just a "self-perceived" image, it's an applicant-perceived, and other-program perceived, image. Even the most DO-positive, IMG-positive PD is going to hesitate before accepting too many of us, because if there are too many of us, that makes the program look worse to other applicants and possibly drives away some good US MD applicants. Sucks, but really I'm more interested for now in how we can work the system as it is, rather than ranting about how we wish it could be in a fantasy world where PDs can look directly into applicants' souls and pick the best future docs, without having to look at initials or school or board scores.

 

[Drawing Dead]

It's not just a "self-perceived" image, it's an applicant-perceived, and other-program perceived, image. Even the most DO-positive, IMG-positive PD is going to hesitate before accepting too many of us, because if there are too many of us, that makes the program look worse to other applicants and possibly drives away some good US MD applicants.

This is a good point as well. The PD is thinking that if they take too many DO's, then thats spots he's taking from MD's, which is not fair to them, since we exclusively have DO spots, thanks to the "Powers above".

And in my previous post, when I mentioned hypocracy, I mean all the way to the top of the AOA. The AOA is constantly sending out information about which hospitals won't credential AOA trained physicians. At the same time, trying to figure out how to keep osteo programs from closing due to lack of funding/matching applicants. All they need to do is extend the olive branch.

And lastly, your attitude is awful. You're acting like the guy who asks the homecoming queen to the prom and gets turned down. Now you would rather sit at home on prom night hoping she gets into a drunk driving accident rather than asking someone else, going, and having a good time. Maybe even a good enough time that she notices and wishes she went with you.

Chill out, there's plenty of programs out there. I'm sure you will do EM, one way or another. Just because certain instutions are very selective doesn't mean they are the best. And, while you're dissing programs have you even considered any osteopathic programs?

 

[turkdlit]

And lastly, your attitude is awful. You're acting like the guy who asks the homecoming queen to the prom and gets turned down. Now you would rather sit at home on prom night hoping she gets into a drunk driving accident rather than asking someone else, going, and having a good time. Maybe even a good enough time that she notices and wishes she went with you.

Bad analogy...

I think the problem is simpler than what you're implying - DOs are allowed to apply to allopathic institutions, and should be given full consideration, by law. Although a program is well within their right to pick who they want to interview, and exclude DOs, its unethical. For those of us who have worked very hard, trying to do well on boards shine on our rotations, its discouraging to be turned down at top institutions for MD candidates with similar applications.

Everyone here wants to get into the best residency they can, once location and other factors are figured out. I want to do residency in NYC. Although I have interviews, they are not at the top programs, which may help me get better job/academic placement after I graduate. I'm not some academic elitist or anything, but in general, better program = more doors open. If I had an MD behind my name I would have gotten interviews at these places, and so would LadyGrey given her great application.

 

[Drawing Dead]

If you're worried about a job, here's a little information for you.

#1- There are 30,000 EM physician jobs in the United States, and only 15,000 employed EM docs. The opportunities are there MD or DO.

#2- I recently attended a dinner here where one of the largest EM staffing firms in the country invited all of the EM programs in the city, allo and osteo to be wined and dined and enticed to join their group. They didn't care if we were MD or DO, they just were looking for EM physicians.

The point I'm trying to make is it really doesn't matter where you train, the opportunities will be there. Do some programs have advantages over others? Of course. I won't argue that. And you can argue that it's discriminatory what certain allopathic institutions do, and how it's unethical, and blah blah blah, but at the end of the day, it's their choice who they take. They will take who they feel is the "best fit" for them, by their definition. And you should always be careful what you say on here. This website isn't as anonymous as you may think. And if someone was on here posting about how other people shouldn't apply to certain programs, and how they take people with inferior applications, or that they should interview DO's because it's the law and the ethical thing to do, they would be looked upon as someone who has a chip on their shoulder and with an attitude that would be malignant in their program.

Let me ask a question to everyone on here. If an OSTEOPATHIC medical school was good enough for you, why isn't an OSTEOPATHIC residency good enough for you?

 

[ggmk]

DD: Ladygrey, Turkdlit and I have made valid points, critiquing how some programs make their decisions. I don't know why you keep on spinning it out of focus by offering job advices, calling people names(prom queen whatever), and threatening our free speech by telling us to be careful of what we say.

And who ever said anything about Osteo programs not being good enough? Maybe you're at an Osteo program yourself with chip on the shoulder?

If you are going to continue talking about Osteo programs, then please stay in focus of this thread. Maybe you can share with us which Osteo programs you're talking about in NYC.

 

[LadyGrey]

And lastly, your attitude is awful. You're acting like the guy who asks the homecoming queen to the prom and gets turned down. Now you would rather sit at home on prom night hoping she gets into a drunk driving accident rather than asking someone else, going, and having a good time. Maybe even a good enough time that she notices and wishes she went with you.

What? Dude, read my original post. I'm not sitting home on prom night; I'm perfectly content with the prom dates I have. This thread is about sharing information that might be useful to other people. For example, maybe some DOs who wants to go to Bellevue can say hmm, looks like I only have a shot if I rotate there, let me rotate there. Then this hypothetical DO gets an interview. Yay for that Bellevue-wanting DO!

Chill out, there's plenty of programs out there. I'm sure you will do EM, one way or another. Just because certain instutions are very selective doesn't mean they are the best. And, while you're dissing programs have you even considered any osteopathic programs?

Uh, thanks, I'm sure I'll do EM, too. But I'm confused -- which is it? Did I say some institutions were the best, or did I diss them? Or did I somehow do both?

And yeah, I am considering some osteopathic programs. Advice from DOs, though, has been that my future options are broader if I go allopathic.

 

[LadyGrey]

And you should always be careful what you say on here. This website isn't as anonymous as you may think. And if someone was on here posting about how other people shouldn't apply to certain programs, and how they take people with inferior applications, or that they should interview DO's because it's the law and the ethical thing to do, they would be looked upon as someone who has a chip on their shoulder and with an attitude that would be malignant in their program.

Is this directed at me, or at someone else? Either way, threatening people isn't cool.

Let me ask a question to everyone on here. If an OSTEOPATHIC medical school was good enough for you, why isn't an OSTEOPATHIC residency good enough for you?

Like ggmk said, I don't hear anybody saying that an osteopathic residency isn't good enough. Again, just trying to share info about what allopathic residencies think we're not good enough, so people can make more informed decisions about aways, likelihood of getting an interview at all, etc.

 

[Drawing Dead]

Um, I was never talking to you. Calm down

 

[Old_Mil]

Let me ask a question to everyone on here. If an OSTEOPATHIC medical school was good enough for you, why isn't an OSTEOPATHIC residency good enough for you?

Because I'm allergic to Osteopathy, and I run a serious risk of anaphylaxis if I'm exposed to it again.

 

[countthestars]

So for those of you that got interviews at Jacobi, Lincoln and St. Lukes-Roosevelt, what were your stats? I'm a first year at NYCOM really interested in EM and would love to match at Jacobi or St. Lukes. I see from their previous residents that there is usually one from NYCOM.

 

[roja]

I can't speak to much to jacobi, but for SLR, one of the best ways is to do a rotation during your fourth year. If you like research, consider spending some time at one of these institutions doing research.

One of the best ways to get an 'in' is to get to know the people there.