DO vs Dental

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orangeman25

orangeman25

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On a purely objective way, is getting into DO school easier or harder than getting into dental school. I was having this convo with a dental student the other day. What do you all think?
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it's like comparing apples to oranges honestly. just different routes.
 
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It's like asking whether it's harder to get into vet school or med school- vet school has far more applicants per seat and have a far more difficult prerequisite curriculum (https://aavmc.org/data/files/vmcas/prereqchrt14.pdf -you need chem, bio, physics, orgo, biochem, micro, and genetics at many schools), but they don't have to take the MCAT, so it's hard to say which is more difficult. They're just different.
 
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Mad Jack said:
It's like asking whether it's harder to get into vet school or med school- vet school has far more applicants per seat and have a far more difficult prerequisite curriculum (https://aavmc.org/data/files/vmcas/prereqchrt14.pdf -you need chem, bio, physics, orgo, biochem, micro, and genetics at many schools), but they don't have to take the MCAT, so it's hard to say which is more difficult. They're just different.
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I actually think VET is harder then med.so few spots. But lots of premed take those classes (taken all those plus more)

orangeman25 said:
On a purely objective way, is getting into DO school easier or harder than getting into dental school. I was having this convo with a dental student the other day. What do you all think?
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So hard to compare. MCAT vs DAT etc.
 
orangeman25 said:
On a purely objective way, is getting into DO school easier or harder than getting into dental school. I was having this convo with a dental student the other day. What do you all think?
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You are comparing apples to oranges. Dental school is not easy to get into at all. If I am not mistaken it might be harder to get into than a DO school. It might have something to do with many doctors saying that Dentistry is "easy money".

My school happens to have a Dental school and a DO school, we also have a Podiatry program as well.
 
It's dependent on the specific school.

Some DO schools are not even remotely competitive (avg MCAT for all test takers, below avg gpa).

Obviously, there are dental programs that are very competitive.
 
DoctorSynthesis said:
I actually think VET is harder then med.so few spots. But lots of premed take those classes (taken all those plus more)



So hard to compare. MCAT vs DAT etc.
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Yea from my understanding of it the difficulty of getting into a program goes like this:
Vet>MD=PA>DO=Dent>Pod

But obviously thats not set in stone, thats just the trend I have heard of... Vet being hard just because as someone mentioned, a lack of spots. This lack of spots is also what makes PA pretty tough too.

However, the challenge getting in has nothing to do with how challenging the degree actually is. Also there are obviously outliers because one could have a very easy time getting into their state med school vs Harvard, so that skews it a lot. Some competitive Dent programs will be as competitive as some PA programs for example. But as for just pure challenge of the material, as I have seen it, Vet=MD=DO=Dent=Pod (and mayyybe even throw PA in there - some programs you basically go through the basic science years with med students). All routes require a great deal of hard work, they are just in different areas (human body, human mouth, horse, human foot, etc).
 
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Awesome Sauceome said:
Yea from my understanding of it the difficulty of getting into a program goes like this:
Vet>MD=PA>DO=Dent>Pod

But obviously thats not set in stone, thats just the trend I have heard of... Vet being hard just because as someone mentioned, a lack of spots. This lack of spots is also what makes PA pretty tough too.

However, the challenge getting in has nothing to do with how challenging the degree actually is. Also there are obviously outliers because one could have a very easy time getting into their state med school vs Harvard, so that skews it a lot. Some competitive Dent programs will be as competitive as some PA programs for example. But as for just pure challenge of the material, as I have seen it, Vet=MD=DO=Dent=Pod (and mayyybe even throw PA in there - some programs you basically go through the basic science years with med students). All routes require a great deal of hard work, they are just in different areas (human body, human mouth, horse, human foot, etc).
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Its harder to get into PA school than DO???
 
you have to compare the threshold for >50% chance at each (assuming, broad, early applications and no red flags). For DO, I believe this is around 3.20/3.20/24.

Dental, I am not sure, but I would assume a comparably poor DAT and a 3.2 would not have >50% chance.
 
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Seth Joo said:
Its harder to get into PA school than DO???
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As someone who entertained the idea of going to PA school when I first got interested in medicine, I would argue that it is.

Now is that to say its harder to get into a PA school than a super competitive DO program (think CCOM or PCOM or something), things become muddy... But I do in fact think that overall it is easier to get into DO school than PA school. There are some crappy DO schools out there with some really low standards. Whereas almost all PA schools have very high matriculant GPA's, not to mention most programs require at LEAST 1,000 hours of clinical experience, with many requiring 2,000-3,000...

Its an interesting field with short schooling and good pay and you can do at least 75% of what a clinical physician does on a day to day basis. I can see why it is competitive.
 
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Awesome Sauceome said:
As someone who entertained the idea of going to PA school when I first got interested in medicine, I would argue that it is.

Now is that to say its harder to get into a PA school than a super competitive DO program (think CCOM or PCOM or something), things become muddy... But I do in fact think that overall it is easier to get into DO school than PA school. There are some crappy DO schools out there with some really low standards. Whereas almost all PA schools have very high matriculant GPA's, not to mention most programs require at LEAST 1,000 hours of clinical experience, with many requiring 2,000-3,000...

Its an interesting field with short schooling and good pay and you can do at least 75% of what a clinical physician does on a day to day basis. I can see why it is competitive.
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THIS. If it weren't for the bottom 5-10 DO programs, the competitiveness threshold would be significantly higher.
 
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user3 said:
THIS. If it weren't for the bottom 5-10 DO programs, the competitiveness threshold would be significantly higher.
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What I think is cool/interesting is that some new schools such as MUCOM are really raising the bar. They want it to be as competitive as MD schools, they want to attract the same caliber of applicants.
 
If these generalizations must be made, it's definately DO>dental. Osteopathic medical school is...Medical school... the bar intuitively is set higher. But, the numbers back that up as well...

Here is the most recent list I found around sdn:

Touro-NY: ?/30.8
Touro-Ca: 3.47/3.40/30.1
CCOM: 3.60/3.55/29.4
RVU: 3.60/3.57/28.33
DMU: 3.68/3.68/28.2
RowanSOM: 3.63/3.55/28
NYITCOM: 3.6/28
UNTHSC-TCOM: 3.59/3.51/28
COMP: 3.56/3.51/28
COMP-NW: 3.55/3.49/28
AZCOM: 3.51/3.44/28
LECOM-B: 3.50/3.40/28
UNECOM: 3.5+/28
NSU: 3.49/3.40/28
PCOM: 3.46/3.37/28 (2016)
TUNCOM: ?/28
MSUCOM: 3.57/27.57
OU-HCOM: 3.65/3.61/27.42
KCOM: 3.56/3.47/27
LECOM-E/SH: 3.48/3.35/27
ATSU-SOMA: 3.42/3.32/27 (2016)
PCOM-Ga: ?/27 (2015)
MUCOM: 3.57/3.49/26.28
OSU-COM: 3.61/3.54/26
KCUMB: 3.60/3.53/26
CUSOM: 3.55/3.23/26
WCU: 3.5/3.4/26
ACOM: 3.4/26
LMU: ?/26
PNWU: 3.40/3.31/25.76
VCOM-CC: 3.61/3.55/25 (2015)
VCOM-VC: 3.59/3.52/25 (2015)
WVSOM: 3.4/3.4/25
KYCOM: 3.5/3.4/24


As you can see, the bottom 1/3 has at least an avg gpa of 3.5, which is similar to dental school and an average mcat of 25, which is the average test takers score. The average DAT score is around 17 (correct me if im wrong) and accepted score is 19.

Now, the MCAT is a whole different monster than the DAT. For some people the DAT might be harder, but the passage based style of the mcat is what makes it so uniquely difficult to so many...

Also keep in mind that those numbers were for the BOTTOM 1/3. Even MD schools have similar lower stats for some schools in the midwest and south. As it turns out, DO schools follow the same trend, albeit a little lower. Schools like Rowan, CCOM, and Touro are way more competitive than most dental schools.

if you want to compare DO to dental, location location location matters. I could argue that Touro NY, stats wise, is probably more difficult to gain acceptance to than most NY dental schools except maybe nyu, columbia, and cornell
 
TheBoiii said:
If these generalizations must be made, it's definately DO>dental. Osteopathic medical school is...Medical school... the bar intuitively is set higher. But, the numbers back that up as well...

Here is the most recent list I found around sdn:

Touro-NY: ?/30.8
Touro-Ca: 3.47/3.40/30.1
CCOM: 3.60/3.55/29.4
RVU: 3.60/3.57/28.33
DMU: 3.68/3.68/28.2
RowanSOM: 3.63/3.55/28
NYITCOM: 3.6/28
UNTHSC-TCOM: 3.59/3.51/28
COMP: 3.56/3.51/28
COMP-NW: 3.55/3.49/28
AZCOM: 3.51/3.44/28
LECOM-B: 3.50/3.40/28
UNECOM: 3.5+/28
NSU: 3.49/3.40/28
PCOM: 3.46/3.37/28 (2016)
TUNCOM: ?/28
MSUCOM: 3.57/27.57
OU-HCOM: 3.65/3.61/27.42
KCOM: 3.56/3.47/27
LECOM-E/SH: 3.48/3.35/27
ATSU-SOMA: 3.42/3.32/27 (2016)
PCOM-Ga: ?/27 (2015)
MUCOM: 3.57/3.49/26.28
OSU-COM: 3.61/3.54/26
KCUMB: 3.60/3.53/26
CUSOM: 3.55/3.23/26
WCU: 3.5/3.4/26
ACOM: 3.4/26
LMU: ?/26
PNWU: 3.40/3.31/25.76
VCOM-CC: 3.61/3.55/25 (2015)
VCOM-VC: 3.59/3.52/25 (2015)
WVSOM: 3.4/3.4/25
KYCOM: 3.5/3.4/24


As you can see, the bottom 1/3 has at least an avg gpa of 3.5, which is similar to dental school and an average mcat of 25, which is the average test takers score. The average DAT score is around 17 (correct me if im wrong) and accepted score is 19.

Now, the MCAT is a whole different monster than the DAT. For some people the DAT might be harder, but the passage based style of the mcat is what makes it so uniquely difficult to so many...

Also keep in mind that those numbers were for the BOTTOM 1/3. Even MD schools have similar lower stats for some schools in the midwest and south. As it turns out, DO schools follow the same trend, albeit a little lower. Schools like Rowan, CCOM, and Touro are way more competitive than most dental schools.

if you want to compare DO to dental, location location location matters. I could argue that Touro NY, stats wise, is probably more difficult to gain acceptance to than most NY dental schools except maybe nyu, columbia, and cornell
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What the heck are you talking about???
 
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You do realize that this exact same type of list could be made for dental schools, since many dental schools also have GPA averages of 3.6+.. Do you honestly think greater than a 1/3 of dental schools have a GPA avg of less than 3.5? If you want to add any credibility to your point make a side by side list of dental and DO school average GPAs and Test Scores and then compare. Also while your at it throw some acceptance rates in there too.. Since you care so much.
 
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Dipdoc said:
You do realize that this exact same type of list could be made for dental schools, since many dental schools also have GPA averages of 3.6+.. Do you honestly think greater than a 1/3 of dental schools have a GPA avg of less than 3.5? If you want to add any credibility to your point make a side by side list of dental and DO school average GPAs and Test Scores and then compare. Also while your at it throw some acceptance rates in there too.. Since you care so much.
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That's a lot of work lol, if someone else wants to take that offer I'd be more than happy to see if i'm wrong or not.

Also, the MCAT point is BIG. So many people deter from pre-med to pre-dental and/or other health professions bc their mcats are too low/they find it too difficult.

To all those saying dat>mcat, im curious, did you take both (practice or real thing) and do better on the mcat (percentile wise)?
 
user3 said:
THIS. If it weren't for the bottom 5-10 DO programs, the competitiveness threshold would be significantly higher.
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The "bottom" DO schools don't exist to reward people for their academic achievements. They exist to provide physicians for areas of the country that there is a shortage. That is why their stats are low.

Awesome Sauceome said:
As someone who entertained the idea of going to PA school when I first got interested in medicine, I would argue that it is.

Now is that to say its harder to get into a PA school than a super competitive DO program (think CCOM or PCOM or something), things become muddy... But I do in fact think that overall it is easier to get into DO school than PA school. There are some crappy DO schools out there with some really low standards. Whereas almost all PA schools have very high matriculant GPA's, not to mention most programs require at LEAST 1,000 hours of clinical experience, with many requiring 2,000-3,000...

Its an interesting field with short schooling and good pay and you can do at least 75% of what a clinical physician does on a day to day basis. I can see why it is competitive.
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Its actually easy to compare PA to DO. Some PA schools (good ones) like USC take MCAT. There scores are around 25 I believe. Its higher then pod (low 20s). Things that require MCAT makes it simple. Things that don't (dental vet) is harder. I would argue hardest is vet then dental then md then do then pa then pod then chiro but its hard to say really. It also depends on the individual school. Some DO schools are harder to get into then MD. I would say Harvard MD is harder then LECOM dent. I would say Harvard dent is harder to get into the Oakland MD. These generalizations are useless...
 
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I also know for a fact that some of the top 10 schools of that list have acceptance rates of </= 4%
 
TheBoiii said:
That's a lot of work lol, if someone else wants to take that offer I'd be more than happy to see if i'm wrong or not.

Also, the MCAT point is BIG. So many people deter from pre-med to pre-dental and/or other health professions bc their mcats are too low/they find it too difficult.

To all those saying dat>mcat, im curious, did you take both (practice or real thing) and do better on the mcat (percentile wise)?
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MCAT is harder then DAT. I looked at DAT questions no where near as hard (expect that visual thing trying to determine the difference between a degree in two angles). Dent school is harder then med maybe. It takes manual skills. But then if you consider surgery that takes manual skills. Ugh comparasions between fields is useless.
 
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@TheBoiii
I don't recall saying that the DAT is more difficult than the MCAT. We're talking overall admissions here, which takes into account a multitude of factors. Also we're not taking Med school vs dental school admissions, we're talking about SPECIFICALLY DO vs dental school admissions. Don't throw MD schools in there because that definitely skews the argument. Some ppl may deter from pre-med to pre-dental but an overwhelming majority of dental students never even had a desire to go to medical school. What about those who switch from MD to DO because of lower stats? I can assure you that the percentage of DO's who wanted to be MD's is MUCH higher than the percentage of Dentists who wanted to be physicians.
 
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Dipdoc said:
@TheBoiii
I don't recall saying that the DAT is more difficult than the MCAT. We're talking overall admissions here, which takes into account a multitude of factors. Also we're not taking Med school vs dental school admissions, we're talking about SPECIFICALLY DO vs dental school admissions. Don't throw MD schools in there because that definitely skews the argument. Some ppl may deter from pre-med to pre-dental but an overwhelming majority of dental students never even had a desire to go to medical school. What about those who switch from MD to DO because of lower stats? I can assure you that the percentage of DO's who wanted to be MD's is MUCH higher than the percentage of Dentists who wanted to be physicians.
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Sure you are, as those obtaining a DO degree are in medical school.
 
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Dipdoc said:
I don't recall saying that the DAT is more difficult than the MCAT. We're talking overall admissions here, which takes into account a multitude of factors. Also we're not taking Med school vs dental school admissions, we're talking about SPECIFICALLY DO vs dental school admissions. Don't throw MD schools in there because that definitely skews the argument. Some ppl may deter from pre-med to pre-dental but an overwhelming majority of dental students never even had a desire to go to medical school. What about those who switch from MD to DO because of lower stats? I can assure you that the percentage of DO's who wanted to be MD's is MUCH higher than the percentage of Dentists who wanted to be physicians.
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The mcat point was just a general question, not directed specifically towards you.

The bolded is probably true but that doesn't have any effect on which is harder. I will probably get a lot of heat from this but I can't believe that many people have a passion for teeth. Many people also don't go into medicine for the passion of it either, but that number is still lower imo.

In any case, I believe we digressed. This argument really cant be made on either side. I will argue however that a physicians role in society is much more difficult than a dentists (responsibility wise). of course this will be considered extreme view, but fire away...

FYI to those following, he is a dental student and i am an accepted DO med student. Now it makes sense right? lolz
 
@TheBoiii
I can agree with you on that last point, but unfortunately that's not what we're actually debating here. We're talking about admissions remember? The less responsibility is part of what makes dentistry such a family friendly and appealing profession when coupled with such a high income.. but again what does this have to do with one being more difficult to get into than the other? Which like a previous poster has already said, "is like comparing apples and oranges." Because I honestly believe it's extremely difficult to compare with all the variables that need to be taken into account.
 
Dipdoc said:
@TheBoiii
I can agree with you on that last point, but unfortunately that's not we're actually debating here. We're talking about admissions remember? The less responsibility is part of what makes dentistry such a family friendly and appealing profession when coupled with such a high income.. but again what does this have to do with one being more difficult to get into than the other? Which like a previous poster has already said, "is like comparing apples and oranges." Because I honestly believe it's extremely difficult to compare with all the variables that need to be taken into account.
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I just wanted to point out, like you said, DO schools attract students who are often sub-par for MD schools. this is true. But you should also really accept that dental schools attract students who are often sub-par for medical school (md or do)...the low stats for DO are mainly just regional and urm heavy ones - hence i kept saying location matters. Md schools are just so super competitive that those with just 1 flaw in their app often deter to DO. This is not the case with dental. If my own experince means anything, i know many people who decided on dentistry after giving up on premed altogether. You can't possibly be argueing that most of those same kids would have gotten into DO schools. Yeah, maybe like the top schools, but the average joe dental school < most DO schools. There are also more dental schools than DO schools, 60 something vs 30 something
 
@TheBoiii

Dentistry does not attract applicants that are 'sub-par' for medical school. Please go to the dental forum and look at the stats of recently accepted non-urm students. Your claims are erroneous. Why do you feel such a desperate need to say that DO is more difficult without any sufficient evidence, why can't you just accept that they are clearly different? I'm curious, do you have something to prove?
 
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Dipdoc said:
@TheBoiii

Dentistry does not attract applicants that are 'sub-par' for medical school. Please go to the dental forum and look at the stats of recently accepted non-urm students. Your claims are erroneous. Why do you feel such a desperate need to say that DO is more difficult without any sufficient evidence, why can't you just accept that they are clearly different? I'm curious, do you have something to prove?
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You should visit the DO school specific threads and do the same, touro has 30/3.5++ students.

I am accepting that they are different, i even said that this arguement was pointless several times, but you keep wanting me to publish numbers when in fact you haven't published any at all...

I have no super ego for DO schools...i even said that they're less than md in competitiveness... but i will say that they attract stronger students than dentistry does, because in the end, a physicans job is "worth more" than a dentists in society.
 
@TheBoiii
Why would I look at the stats of ONE DO school and compare it to the average of all dental schools? How does that make any sense whatsoever? Also I only told you to publish numbers once if it was 'that important to you'.. Like I said before I accept that they're different. I don't really care if one is harder than another but I'm not going to let you just make up things to desperately try to prove that DO is harder. And did you just say that it attracts stronger applicants 'because' they're worth more in society? Since when does the value to society determine how conpetitive a program is? Which do you think has better value to society, plastic surgery or primary care? Pediatrics or Dermatology? Which do you think is more competetive?? I'm done with this debate, your arguments lack logic.
 
Dipdoc said:
@TheBoiii

Dentistry does not attract applicants that are 'sub-par' for medical school. Please go to the dental forum and look at the stats of recently accepted non-urm students. Your claims are erroneous. Why do you feel such a desperate need to say that DO is more difficult without any sufficient evidence, why can't you just accept that they are clearly different? I'm curious, do you have something to prove?
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Agreed. And as far as I can tell, dental schools don't to grade replacement either.
 
@GypsyHummus

Very true, there is no such thing as grade replacement in dental school. I had completely forgotten about that. This might even mean the the GPA avgs of a lot of these DO schools could be much lower...
 
Dipdoc said:
@GypsyHummus

Very true, there is no such thing as grade replacement in dental school. I had completely forgotten about that. This might even mean the the GPA avgs of a lot of these DO schools could be much lower...
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As someone looking into both fields (and needing to decide asap), I get the sense that the MCAT is a tougher than the DAT with the exception of the visual stuff, but the lack of grade replacement really hurts. Grade replacement bumped me up from sub 3.0 to 3.3, it essentially saved my app.

I know that I would be super thrilled to get into either one, but from what I have gathered talking to diff schools, it is a harder to get into Dental programs.

Now, tuition is a diff story. HAVE YOU SEEN HOW MUCH TUITION IS AT THESE PLACES FOR DMD PROGRAMS????
 
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Dipdoc said:
@GypsyHummus

Very true, there is no such thing as grade replacement in dental school. I had completely forgotten about that. This might even mean the the GPA avgs of a lot of these DO schools could be much lower...
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Dipdoc said:
@TheBoiii
Why would I look at the stats of ONE DO school and compare it to the average of all dental schools? How does that make any sense whatsoever? Also I only told you to publish numbers once if it was 'that important to you'.. Like I said before I accept that they're different. I don't really care if one is harder than another but I'm not going to let you just make up things to desperately try to prove that DO is harder. And did you just say that it attracts stronger applicants 'because' they're worth more in society? Since when does the value to society determine how conpetitive a program is? Which do you think has better value to society, plastic surgery or primary care? Pediatrics or Dermatology? Which do you think is more competetive?? I'm done with this debate, your arguments lack logic.
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you twisted what i said. worth more =/= better value TO society. yes, derm is worth more than pediatrics TO STUDENTS because the lifestyle and money is better. TO SOCIETY, pediatrics may be worth more.

I don't believe that many students even use the grade replacement. Even if they do, it will mostly be non trads. No i dont have evidence of this via numbers. not going to look that up..

@GypsyHummus are you nontrad?
 
Also, can anyone who actually, somehow, applied to both dental and DO schools chime in. not sure if thats possible in the same year though?
 
@GypsyHummus

Tuition for dental school is insanely high right now, fortunately I was able to get into my state school which cut down the cost a bit. But either way I still think dentistry is worth it! Dentistry can be a very rewarding field if you do choose to go this route!
 
Dipdoc said:
@GypsyHummus

Tuition for dental school is insanely high right now, fortunately I was able to get into my state school which cut down the cost a bit. But either way I still think dentistry is worth it! Dentistry can be a very rewarding field if you do choose to go this route!
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thats kind of what everyone was saying about pharmacy a few years ago...their job market and admission standards have since utterly collapsed.
 
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I think TheBoiii and Dipdoc might be the same person...
 
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Good old MD vs DO but with a little twist "dental." Well played, troll. Well played.
 
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yawn....I have to finish my wife's cook first. But I jump in. DO admission is just as hard as dental; look at the statistic 1/3 of all D.O. applicants matriculate; the same ratio for dental; GPA is about the same with dental being slightly higher, but it does not mean any thing in this inflated GPA age. Both DAT and MCAT tests are scored on scaled standard, so it does not matter which test is harder, only the top half of those test-takers can get in anyway. Now a ***** (cannot remember the name) mentioned that physician job is worth more to the society than dentist; that is so wrong. In fact both professions are at the mercy of each other. I saw physicians trembling at the dental chairs (who wouldnt?); and you better hope that when that time comes and you must have full mouth extractions/reconstruction, that dentist holding the scapel know what he doing, or you would be "toothless" for a very wrong reason.
 
@user3
And I've heard people call medicine a rewarding career too, what's your point? What happened to pharmacy could never happen to dentistry. Do you know how ridiculously easy and cheap it is to start a pharamacy school? Do you realize starting a dental school is actually more expensive and difficult than starting a medical school simply because of the cost of the clinics alone.. Why do you think there's so few of them?

Edit: you can't just open a 'for-profit' dental school. Dental schools barely make enough profit as is, why do you think tuition is insanely high? We don't have hospitals the cover the cost of our rotations.
 
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Dipdoc said:
@user3
And I've heard people call medicine a rewarding career too, what's your point? What happened to pharmacy could never happen to dentistry. Do you know how ridiculously easy and cheap it is to start a pharamacy school? Do you realize starting a dental school is actually more expensive and difficult than starting a medical school simply because of the cost of the clinics alone.. Why do you think there's so few of them?

Edit: you can't just open a 'for-profit' dental school. Dental schools barely make enough profit as is, why do you think tuition is insanely high? We don't have hospitals the cover the cost of our rotations.
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Hasn't there been a spate of new dental schools opening recently?
 
If you don't have to take the MCAT, it is easier IMO... Most people can get a 3.7 GPA at a flagship state school... MCAT is a more difficult test than DAT/PCAT/GRE etc...
 
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