do vs md bedside manner :)

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jringo1984

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i work at a hospital and i've noticed that the osteo docs seem to get along better w/ patients. i'll apply to do and md programs, but i was wondering if this is just a weird pattern at my hospital or they actually engrain the social aspect of doctoring more in do schools. (yes, i know there are some really good guys who are allo docs, too, just generalizing a bit here)
 
not that this is saying much but I completely agree with your statement. When I was shadowing DO vs MD, the DO's paid MUCH more attention to me and really tried to teach me while the MD's just sort of said "watch".. I shadowed a FP/NMM DO also and her bedside manner was really excellent compared to my own GP (MD).. again, not saying much.. sample size is too small but this seems to be what my friends are saying too..
 
I doubt there is anything at all in it. It's like me saying 'Yea, but MD's are smarter and have more medical expertise.'

They are both stereotypes which I doubt are true for most people.
 
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I've definitely found this to be true. I work in the ER at Tampa General Hospital and though some MD's certainly do have exemplary bedside manner, DO's as a whole stand above the allopaths in their presentation to patients. Certainly there are exceptions to this, but yes, in my experience it does seem that DO's are generally more patient-friendly than MD's.
 
I've seen some DOs with terrible bedside manner, prescribing the wrong drug, and I've seen the same on the MD side. Study hard and try your hardest to never forget why you got into medicine, and it won't matter which degree you get--your patients will have a good physician they can trust. 👍
 
But what if DOs were allowed to change their degree and get an MD? How would premeds decide which ones had the best bedside manner?
 
i work at a hospital and i've noticed that the osteo docs seem to get along better w/ patients. i'll apply to do and md programs, but i was wondering if this is just a weird pattern at my hospital or they actually engrain the social aspect of doctoring more in do schools. (yes, i know there are some really good guys who are allo docs, too, just generalizing a bit here)

Your bedside manner is determined by the choices you make and the way YOU choose to treat your patients. It has nothing to do with your degree. DO schools dont engrain the social aspect of doctoring into your head any more so than MD schools, and vice versa.
 
your bedside manner is determined by the choices you make and the way you choose to treat your patients. It has nothing to do with your degree. Do schools dont engrain the social aspect of doctoring into your head any more so than md schools, and vice versa.

qft.
 
I have noticed this is very true. I work in an ED and notice this all of the time. I had one OMM fellow tell me that DO's have better bed side manner due to the increased hands on curriculum during school. They get more hands on with other students by being in the OMM lab. This gets them comfortable touching and being close to people.
 
I'm sorry but this is absolutely ******ed. Why are people, MD or DO's, still making such blanket statements. I just finished my SMP at a DO school, and beleive it or not, there are immature *******s here; and, there is NOT a beside manner class! I know...astounding.

Be the doctor you want to be. I'm happy to be going to an allopathic school, and I will stay away from the so called dark side and treat patients with respect, no matter how hard that sounds.🙄
 
No truth to this at all. Like Lokhtar said, this is one of those silly statements that just divides physicians. You can be a dick and be a DO or Patch Adams and be an MD, etc.
 
jeez, i guess some people have some pretty thin skin. i was just asking if the osteo schools emphasize these mannerisms more than allo schools do. (a lot of nurses i work with were thinking this was the case). anyway, i don't want to get people's panties in a bunch, so if a mod could shut this thread down, i think it would be for the best. i apologize to anyone i've offended.
 
I"ve seen this first hand for several years as well. But lets not make generalizations. There are good and bad bedside manners for doctors that have an MD and DO. Just learn from the bad and good behavior.
 
No truth to this at all. Like Lokhtar said, this is one of those silly statements that just divides physicians. You can be a dick and be a DO or Patch Adams and be an MD, etc.

The real Patch Adams is a dick, so that isn't saying much. 😉
 
I"ve seen this first hand for several years as well. But lets not make generalizations. There are good and bad bedside manners for doctors that have an MD and DO. Just learn from the bad and good behavior.

In all honesty, the one difference I've consistently noticed between the MDs and DOs I've dealt with is that the DOs tend to be somewhat less haughty and arrogant. Granted, this doesn't automatically translate into better patient communication and "bedside manner" (whatever that actually means) but it does seem make the DOs more approachable. I honestly think this is because the DO schools examine a different applicant population and don't take so many hardcore douche "gunners" that get into medicine just to prove that they can handle any challenge or something.

That said, I'd also like to mention that far too many doctors have absolutely terrible "bedside manner" and that this should be a major arena of improvement for medical schools and GME. I've been especially appalled by the demeanors of many of the FMGs I've encountered - are doctors deliberately trained to be mean in other countries or something? Yeesh.
 
I doubt there is anything at all in it. It's like me saying 'Yea, but MD's are smarter and have more medical expertise.'

They are both stereotypes which I doubt are true for most people.


Too true!!
 
In all honesty, the one difference I've consistently noticed between the MDs and DOs I've dealt with is that the DOs tend to be somewhat less haughty and arrogant. Granted, this doesn't automatically translate into better patient communication and "bedside manner" (whatever that actually means) but it does seem make the DOs more approachable. I honestly think this is because the DO schools examine a different applicant population and don't take so many hardcore douche "gunners" that get into medicine just to prove that they can handle any challenge or something.

That said, I'd also like to mention that far too many doctors have absolutely terrible "bedside manner" and that this should be a major arena of improvement for medical schools and GME. I've been especially appalled by the demeanors of many of the FMGs I've encountered - are doctors deliberately trained to be mean in other countries or something? Yeesh.

Boy do I have some stories that I could share on that topic. I will just tell one story.

FMG starts a program where all members of the cardiology floor and team have to walk up one level of stairs (from 2nd to the 3rd) and not take the elevator to the 3rd floor (clinic was located on the 2nd floor along with the emergency room, cath lab). So one day the FMG that started this program decided to take the elevator up to the 3rd floor. A nurse that worked on the 4th floor said jokingly, "now, why are you not taking the stairs?" The FMG responded back by saying, "I'm a doctor, you are not. So I can do what I want." This FMG built a bad rep. I looked at the website to see if he was still employed in the cardiology department and he isn't. So he must have left for a different job.
 
Boy do I have some stories that I could share on that topic. I will just tell one story.

FMG starts a program where all members of the cardiology floor and team have to walk up one level of stairs (from 2nd to the 3rd) and not take the elevator to the 3rd floor (clinic was located on the 2nd floor along with the emergency room, cath lab). So one day the FMG that started this program decided to take the elevator up to the 3rd floor. A nurse that worked on the 4th floor said jokingly, "now, why are you not taking the stairs?" The FMG responded back by saying, "I'm a doctor, you are not. So I can do what I want." This FMG built a bad rep. I looked at the website to see if he was still employed in the cardiology department and he isn't. So he must have left for a different job.[/quote
Sorry for my noobness but FMG=???
 
I always find this to be such a BS statement and hate to hear people keep going on like DOs are all soooo much nicer. I know lots of people in DO schools in Fl. and some of them are the shadiest people I know, others are amongst some of the most insecure people I know. I don't think all DOs are necessarily better and not all MDs are better.

There are arrogant docs on both sides and good docs on both sides. I know several academic physicians that are MDs which are some of the best docs I have met and shadowed.

Likewise, all of my past physicians have been MDs by chance, not because of prejudices. And almost all of them, except the few I had in USF's student health services, were great physicians. I've heard of a lot of the hometown Indian MDs I know spoken of with great reverance by strangers and friends alike who have either worked with them or been their patients.
 
It's so hard to draw a generalization like that. Some DOs don't care. Some MDs don't care.
 
I always find this to be such a BS statement and hate to hear people keep going on like DOs are all soooo much nicer. I know lots of people in DO schools in Fl. and some of them are the shadiest people I know, others are amongst some of the most insecure people I know. I don't think all DOs are necessarily better and not all MDs are better.

There are arrogant docs on both sides and good docs on both sides. I know several academic physicians that are MDs which are some of the best docs I have met and shadowed.

Likewise, all of my past physicians have been MDs by chance, not because of prejudices. And almost all of them, except the few I had in USF's student health services, were great physicians. I've heard of a lot of the hometown Indian MDs I know spoken of with great reverance by strangers and friends alike who have either worked with them or been their patients.

Yeah I know I was painting with a broad brush. I'm sure there are arrogant DOs, nice MDs, etc out there. The sample size of docs I've dealt with is obviously small but like anyone else that's all I have to work with.

But I generally stand by the FMG observation. While there are some good FMGs out there, the good experiences that myself and my wife have had with them have been far outwighed by the negative ones. In that regard, FMG behavior also seems to vary by nationality; the ones I've dealt with from Western Europe, the Caribbean and India have generally been good but ones from Eastern Europe and China have often been appallingly bad.
 
Yeah I know I was painting with a broad brush. I'm sure there are arrogant DOs, nice MDs, etc out there. The sample size of docs I've dealt with is obviously small but like anyone else that's all I have to work with.

But I generally stand by the FMG observation. While there are some good FMGs out there, the good experiences that myself and my wife have had with them have been far outwighed by the negative ones. In that regard, FMG behavior also seems to vary by nationality; the ones I've dealt with from Western Europe, the Caribbean and India have generally been good but ones from Eastern Europe and China have often been appallingly bad.

again, more generalizations. I've met good and bad FMGs. Quite a few FMGs from India were not that great while quite a few were bloody brilliant and the best of physicians.
 
I don't buy this statement either. I don't think you can make generalizations like this. It's like saying that all Southerners are hospitable and nice and Northerners are rude and mean, which is bullcrap. I have lived in the north and currently live n the south and think it's not a regional thing but a personality thing. I have met rude MD's and DO's. The doctor who I am trying to model myself after is an MD. He is an orthopod and is very conservative in his practice. He wants to save surgery for a last resort and would rather try medical or phyical therapy interventions to cure ailments. This is the type of surgeon I want to be. I think people who say DO's are more personable and have better bedside manner are trying to find ways to show that DO is better than MD when they are equal in my eyes. Who cares what other people do? All that matters is what you do.
 
again, more generalizations. I've met good and bad FMGs. Quite a few FMGs from India were not that great while quite a few were bloody brilliant and the best of physicians.

What the bloody hell is your avatar?
 
What the bloody hell is your avatar?

Why the need to curse???? I'd answer you but I think you were pretty rude in the way you asked the question and find that offensive.

it is a common symbol though so its not that hard to figure it out yourself.
 
Why the need to curse???? I'd answer you but I think you were pretty rude in the way you asked the question and find that offensive.

it is a common symbol though so its not that hard to figure it out yourself.

You have to be kidding. Bloody hell is a curse in England, not here. They even use it on advertisements in Australia. Heck, even Stewie Griffin uses it and he is my role model. And, no, I can't make it out that I why I asked.

P.S. Calm down.

http://www.wherethebloodyhellareyou.com/tvc/index.html

Stewie_griffin.jpg
 
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Why the need to curse???? I'd answer you but I think you were pretty rude in the way you asked the question and find that offensive.

it is a common symbol though so its not that hard to figure it out yourself.

thats not a curse anywhere but England! Im curious too now. It looks arabic or something.
 
No, it's Ohm in devanagari script, it's Hindu.
 
DOs are taught to treat the whole person, body mind and spirit in school.
Research from AAMC has statistically shown that patients are more satisfied with the bedside manners of DOs than MD. While anyone can
teach themselves to be more cogniznant of another's needs, this philosophy has been ingrained in DOs throughout medical school and residency. Some will ignore what they have been taught for the sake of
expediency.

prettyperky
 
DOs are taught to treat the whole person, body mind and spirit in school.
Research from AAMC has statistically shown that patients are more satisfied with the bedside manners of DOs than MD. While anyone can
teach themselves to be more cogniznant of another's needs, this philosophy has been ingrained in DOs throughout medical school and residency. Some will ignore what they have been taught for the sake of
expediency.

prettyperky

Prettyperky: Can you show me this research?

Lokhtar: Thanks.
 
DOs are taught to treat the whole person, body mind and spirit in school.
Research from AAMC has statistically shown that patients are more satisfied with the bedside manners of DOs than MD. While anyone can
teach themselves to be more cogniznant of another's needs, this philosophy has been ingrained in DOs throughout medical school and residency. Some will ignore what they have been taught for the sake of
expediency.

prettyperky

Yup, I'd like to see this research too.
 
To be honest, I believe it comes down to the individual. You can take the most hollistic minded person and stick them in that evil stereotypical MD program (you know, that "treat the disease, treat the disease, treat the disease" stereotype) and you'll still get someone with great bed side manner. You take also take the most narrow minded 'treat the disease' premed and stick him in the best of the best DO program and he'll still come out with a crap bedside manner. Of course very few of us are at the extremes.
 
I don't buy this statement either. I don't think you can make generalizations like this. It's like saying that all Southerners are hospitable and nice and Northerners are rude and mean, which is bullcrap. I have lived in the north and currently live n the south and think it's not a regional thing but a personality thing. I have met rude MD's and DO's. The doctor who I am trying to model myself after is an MD. He is an orthopod and is very conservative in his practice. He wants to save surgery for a last resort and would rather try medical or phyical therapy interventions to cure ailments. This is the type of surgeon I want to be. I think people who say DO's are more personable and have better bedside manner are trying to find ways to show that DO is better than MD when they are equal in my eyes. Who cares what other people do? All that matters is what you do.

I even admitted I was speaking in sweeping generalizations. You see, I don't suffer from the osteopathic inferiority complex that many around here seem to have; I was merely reporting an observation made based on a sample size that I full well realized was insufficient. I also specifically stated that it was a mild difference in behavior and that it probably didn't translate into anything perceptible on the patient end. Sheesh. If it makes you feel any better, you're right!

(Oh and BTW, I used to live in the Northeast and went to Ohio for college. The last time I came back to the Northeast to visit I was very surprised with the sort of rudeness I witnessed - it was worse than I'd remembered. But I suppose I'm just one of those people thinking with the blinders on - after all, each and every one of us is exactly the same and things like "regional differences" are merely illusions perpetuated by those crude and narrow-minded types, right?)
 
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Why the need to curse???? I'd answer you but I think you were pretty rude in the way you asked the question and find that offensive.

it is a common symbol though so its not that hard to figure it out yourself.

How is that a common symbol?...

Also, I'm afraid I have to side with dozitgetchahi here (btw, I have absolutely no idea how to pronounce your name in my head). A bunch of disclaimers are placed into these posts just so you people wouldn't react this way (e.g. "this is bull****"). Let's have an open mind here, shall we?

While I agree that there's no logical reason why a physician with a DO degree would be any different from an MD-wielding physician...isn't there the slight possibility that there might still be some difference? In the grand scheme of things, no two things are actually equal on all levels. We already know that DO schools look for different qualities and characteristics when choosing their students as compared to MD schools. Aren't pre-meds who decide to apply MD-only sometimes arrogant, obnoxious, and just a little close-minded? Who's to say that the difference in applicants accepted by MD and DO schools (not to say there's not much overlap; there is) can't carry over to actual practice?

My point is: it's not the osteopathic program that somehow makes a medical student holistic and more "patient-centered"...it's the type of applicants that decide that they want to do osteopathic medicine. They may have different values and goals going in that translate to the differences one may see in practice. Hence, it IS individual, but an individual may be more likely to want to go MD, or more likely to want to go DO; it may be skewed depending on the quality you're looking at.

My two cents; don't kill me now. 🙄
 
How is that a common symbol?...

Also, I'm afraid I have to side with dozitgetchahi here (btw, I have absolutely no idea how to pronounce your name in my head). A bunch of disclaimers are placed into these posts just so you people wouldn't react this way (e.g. "this is bull****"). Let's have an open mind here, shall we?

While I agree that there's no logical reason why a physician with a DO degree would be any different from an MD-wielding physician...isn't there the slight possibility that there might still be some difference? In the grand scheme of things, no two things are actually equal on all levels. We already know that DO schools look for different qualities and characteristics when choosing their students as compared to MD schools. Aren't pre-meds who decide to apply MD-only sometimes arrogant, obnoxious, and just a little close-minded? Who's to say that the difference in applicants accepted by MD and DO schools (not to say there's not much overlap; there is) can't carry over to actual practice?

My point is: it's not the osteopathic program that somehow makes a medical student holistic and more "patient-centered"...it's the type of applicants that decide that they want to do osteopathic medicine. They may have different values and goals going in that translate to the differences one may see in practice. Hence, it IS individual, but an individual may be more likely to want to go MD, or more likely to want to go DO; it may be skewed depending on the quality you're looking at.

My two cents; don't kill me now. 🙄


wait so maybe there's an inverse correlation between proper bedside manner and academic performance in undergrad....



........ * sinks away slowly into the shadows, waiting for explosion * .........
 
wait so maybe there's an inverse correlation between proper bedside manner and academic performance in undergrad....



........ * sinks away slowly into the shadows, waiting for explosion * .........

Actually I think you may have hit the nail on the head...based on my observations I must say I generally agree with you.

***Disclaimer*** - Now I'm not saying this is an absolute correlation. I'm sure there are exceptions. Viewer discretion is advised, tax, title, and registration extra, batteries not included, view at your own risk, etc.

*Waits for bigger and even more violent explosion*
 
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I have noticed this is very true. I work in an ED and notice this all of the time. I had one OMM fellow tell me that DO's have better bed side manner due to the increased hands on curriculum during school. They get more hands on with other students by being in the OMM lab. This gets them comfortable touching and being close to people.

As much as I'm empathetic to the argument that MD's and DO's are "the same", I completely agree with the plausibility of the above scenario and its result.
 
Yup, I'd like to see this research too.


Actually I've heard there's research on the bedside manner thing, and other facets. I don't have the citations yet, lemme work on it if I can extend out my gnat-sized short term memory long enough to make it happen.
 
My point is: it's not the osteopathic program that somehow makes a medical student holistic and more "patient-centered"...it's the type of applicants that decide that they want to do osteopathic medicine. They may have different values and goals going in that translate to the differences one may see in practice. Hence, it IS individual, but an individual may be more likely to want to go MD, or more likely to want to go DO; it may be skewed depending on the quality you're looking at.

My two cents; don't kill me now. 🙄

Why can't it be, in part, a little of both?
I like your point, though, and it's patently true, at PCOM anyhow,
that the admissions do take the "whole person" into account.
I think many students would be shocked to find out that it's not just a
catch phrase, or even an excuse, but a reality and purposeful in its aim.
 
Why can't it be, in part, a little of both?
I like your point, though, and it's patently true, at PCOM anyhow,
that the admissions do take the "whole person" into account.
I think many students would be shocked to find out that it's not just a
catch phrase, or even an excuse, but a reality and purposeful in its aim.

Well, in reality I DO think it's both the individual and the program, but having never gone through the program yet and having only dealt with a LOT of pre-meds, I can't say the latter with any degree of certainty. However, I certainly do hope, regardless of what current med students are saying here 🙂p), that osteopathic medical programs do somehow foster and/or encourage this type of behavior.
 
i would also like to see the article which suggests that osteopathic physicians have a significantly better bedside manner. i want to see the criteria used, among other things.

i see posts like this all the time. while i appreciate the reflection, generalizations like this seem a bit silly and school-boyish to me. bedside manner is more of a function of the individual than ones education. i think if on average DOs have a better bedside manner it is more likely due to the population characteristics than something learned in the classroom. in my estimation, there isnt anything much difference in the overall education of a DO these days.
 
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Let’s hypothetical assume that DO’s have better bedside manner than MD’s. You have to ask yourself this question “Why is there a difference, and where does that difference originated from?” A good answer would be the sample population. Those who attain an allopathic medical school are your traditional students straight from undergraduate degree. Osteopathic medical schools are more willing to pick non-traditional students for matriculation compared to allopathic medical schools. If this assumption is correct, then you have to ask yourself, Is there a statistical difference in personalities between the types of students matriculating at allopathic compared to osteopathic medical schools?

I think the answer to that question is YES!

Let's say that some people see osteopathic medical school as a backup, which some people do. Now, I know for a fact, I have met some people who would not matriculate into osteopathic medical school as a backup. What does that say for those who don't care if they attain an osteopathic or allopathic medical school? I know there's a difference between those two samples in terms of personalities.

 
Personally, I feel that either a M.D. or a D.O. can be an outstanding Doctor. However, the inferiority complex prevalent in this thread is very noticeable. Who cares about the letter by you name. Just work hard and cultivate some humility and good bed side manner will be second nature. Those letter mean nothing. It just sounds like everyone wants to make themselves feel better.
 
Hmmm....let's see...

Of the docs who stand out in my mind, I've known 1 outstanding DO, 2 outstanding MDs, 1 MD surgeon who was amazing with a scalpel but terrible with listening, and an MD psychiatrist who didn't give two shakes about the mental state of his patients.

^^More anecdotal evidence, not to be confused with generalizable or reportable data. 😉
 
In that regard, FMG behavior also seems to vary by nationality; the ones I've dealt with from Western Europe, the Caribbean and India have generally been good but ones from Eastern Europe and China have often been appallingly bad.[/quote]



I have to disagree with you on this one....I am from Eastern Europe (Ukraine), and I have 2 aunts and 1 uncle who are FMG's practicing here. They are incredibly talented, warm and caring physicians. They have a great relationship with their patients, and always try to do their best for patients' health.

I also once had an appointment with an elderly Polish doctor (who had recently come from Poland). He amazed me in the regard that he was able to very quickly assess what was wrong with me just by pure physical examination, not using any diagnostic equipment. Doctors here in the US often rely on lab results for answers, and many lose track of the ability to diagnose illness by physical examination and listening carefully to the patient.
 
Besides the obvious sample bias coupled c anecdotal evidence, remember that correlation doesn't imply causation. There are much stricter criteria for that.
 
Has everyone take statistics? Because it appears that everyone is trying to give examples that are NOT representative of the entire population as evidence supporting their claim: “Well, I met two doctors, one was nice, and the other wasn’t. One received his education here. The other doctor received his education there; therefore, that proves my point!”

How representative is that? I made a previous post trying to address what a major contributing factor could be: one readily accepts traditional students (allopathic) while the other readily accepts traditional and non-traditional students (osteopathic). It’s obvious that there is a difference in the population sample between the two schools of medicine. We’re going to be doctors, and we need evidence based medicine. This implies, what’s the statistical difference in bed-side manner?

Let’s hypothetical say, 80% of DO’s have a bed-side manner that can quantifiably met a minimum criteria of having a positive bed-side manner. Let’s also hypothetical say 60% of MD’s have a bed-side manner that can quantifiably met a minimum criteria of having a positive bed-side manner. Right there, there’s a statistical difference (that I made up) between DO’s and MD’s.

Unless we have this data, trying to show through example is almost pointless. Let’s say cell-phones have a 0.01% chance for contributing to cancer because of radiation. Let’s said I made this claim on this thread. I bet anything, I will hear people screaming, “Well, I don’t have cancer!” Duh, you fall within the 99.99% chance where cell-phones didn’t increase your probability for developing cancer.
 
i work at a hospital and i've noticed that the osteo docs seem to get along better w/ patients. i'll apply to do and md programs, but i was wondering if this is just a weird pattern at my hospital or they actually engrain the social aspect of doctoring more in do schools. (yes, i know there are some really good guys who are allo docs, too, just generalizing a bit here)


How representative is that? I made a previous post trying to address what a major contributing factor could be: one readily accepts traditional students (allopathic) while the other readily accepts traditional and non-traditional students (osteopathic). It's obvious that there is a difference in the population sample between the two schools of medicine. We're going to be doctors, and we need evidence based medicine. This implies, what's the statistical difference in bed-side manner?

Let's hypothetical say, 80% of DO's have a bed-side manner that can quantifiably met a minimum criteria of having a positive bed-side manner. Let's also hypothetical say 60% of MD's have a bed-side manner that can quantifiably met a minimum criteria of having a positive bed-side manner. Right there, there's a statistical difference (that I made up) between DO's and MD's.

Why does any of this matter, statistically supported or not?

Suppose that some study shows, beyond the shadow of a statistical doubt, that DOs have better bedside manners than MDs. And....?? Does this make you feel better about attending an osteo school? Does it validate your life somehow?

And suppose that we realize that the studies that state that DOs have better bedside manners are 100% crap. Will this make you regret choosing to go DO? Are you going to drop out of your osteo med school because of that? Does your life lack all meaning now?

Honestly, why the heck does any of this matter?
 
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