DO vs MD

[Skeeks]

ACGME Gen Surg, no not realistically. You can do an AOA residency in gen surg and contrary to popular belief there are actually some really good AOA residencies for gen surgery. Like you mentioned you realistically can get into good ACGME and AOA primary care residencies in FM, IM, OB/GYN, Psych and I have heard you can get into really good EM just maybe not top EM residencies. Other ACGME residencies that are DO friendly are Anesthesia and you can get into the top residencies in PMR pretty easily as a DO. PMR is one thing I am very interested in and you will find every big name PMR residency out there with DOs in their program. You can also go on to sub-specialize in PMR in pediatrics, sports medicine, pain management, and spinal injury.

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[QuantumQuark]

To determine if there is a meaningful difference in career prospects between attending a bottom tier MD school and a top tier DO school, in case an applicant should ever have to choose between them. I think it is a valid question.

I also think the answer is that historically nothing much has come of LCME probation (although twice in a decade has to be some kind of record), and historically MD degrees offer easier access to a wider variety of residencies, so there is a difference and an applicant would benefit from choosing the lower ranked MD school, all other things (family / geography / tuition / etc) being equal.

When did there become tiers of DO schools? Tiers usually are at least loosely correlated with the rank of the school and since DO schools are all unranked and are so few aren't they all basically the same tier/tierless.

I'm sure some schools are better than others but I feel like the term top tier DO is getting thrown around pretty loosely in this thread.

 

[mcloaf]

im sorry, i didn't realize that i was dealing with an expert in undergraduate medical education. there is no advantage to going to a do school. you'll be dealing with the implicit assumption that you're in a do program because you couldn't get into an md school. if you want to get into an md residency, you'll have to take the usmle as well as the comlex. you'll be dealing with discrimination from residency directors.

But yehhhboiii, think of the patients!

 

[Skeeks]

But yehhhboiii, think of the patients!

Well, there's one good example of why you could choose a DO school over an MD school.

 

[mcloaf]

Well, there's one good example of why you could choose a DO school over an MD school. You wont end up with the complete toolbags MD schools tend to attract.

Eh, considered typing out a response about how I'm sick of the role you're playing in this thread, which is that of the chip on the shoulder pre-osteo who picks arguments he can't win for no good reason except to be contrarian and stick it to MD's or whatever. Also considered just saying something mean about you, but that's pretty low hanging fruit at this point.

Enjoy the rest of your evening.
Live. Laugh. Love.

 

[touchpause13]

I'd say its totally reasonable to go DO over MD if:
-that school is better for your family
-that school is cheaper
-that school has a better location

As long as u also want to go into a DO friendly speciality, that is.

 

[NontradCA]

I just love the chip-on-the-shoulder thing about DOs when we all know Pre -Allo is a place full of self important mouth breathers whose only accomplishment in life is that of obtaining an MD acceptance as to mitigate any shrinking of the male genitalia.

I'm not going to med school to get a trophy wife who's gonna cheat on me, hear from my mother that she's proud, or for the prestige fat ugly middle aged men cuddle onto like the last trophy they'll ever receive. I want to practice medicine.

 

[Hemorrage]

I'd say its totally reasonable to go DO over MD if:
-that school is better for your family
-that school is cheaper
-that school has a better location

As long as u also want to go into a DO friendly speciality, that is.

These are literally the only reasons to ever go DO over MD. That being said, no one cares except on Pre-allo.

 

[yehhhboiii]

I just love the chip-on-the-shoulder thing about DOs when we all know Pre -Allo is a place full of self important mouth breathers whose only accomplishment in life is that of obtaining an MD acceptance as to mitigate any shrinking of the male genitalia.

I'm not going to med school to get a trophy wife who's gonna cheat on me, hear from my mother that she's proud, or for the prestige fat ugly middle aged men cuddle onto like the last trophy they'll ever receive. I want to practice medicine.

lol ok kid

 

[mcloaf]

I just love the chip-on-the-shoulder thing about DOs when we all know Pre -Allo is a place full of self important mouth breathers whose only accomplishment in life is that of obtaining an MD acceptance as to mitigate any shrinking of the male genitalia.

I'm not going to med school to get a trophy wife who's gonna cheat on me, hear from my mother that she's proud, or for the prestige fat ugly middle aged men cuddle onto like the last trophy they'll ever receive. I want to practice medicine.

Whatever helps you sleep.

 

[La Presse]

I just love the chip-on-the-shoulder thing about DOs when we all know Pre -Allo is a place full of self important mouth breathers whose only accomplishment in life is that of obtaining an MD acceptance as to mitigate any shrinking of the male genitalia.

I'm not going to med school to get a trophy wife who's gonna cheat on me, hear from my mother that she's proud, or for the prestige fat ugly middle aged men cuddle onto like the last trophy they'll ever receive. I want to practice medicine.

Hmm...I'm going to med school for at least half of those things.

 

[1TB4RKSB4CK]

funny thread is funny

 

[Ismet]

Just a reminder to keep your discussions civil. Personal attacks are not allowed on SDN.

Thanks.

 

[Skeeks]

Eh, considered typing out a response about how I'm sick of the role you're playing in this thread, which is that of the chip on the shoulder pre-osteo who picks arguments he can't win for no good reason except to be contrarian and stick it to MD's or whatever. Also considered just saying something mean about you, but that's pretty low hanging fruit at this point.

Enjoy the rest of

Well, there's one good example of why you could choose a DO school over an MD school. You wont end up with the complete toolbags MD schools tend to attract.

I should and will apologize for that remark mcloaf. I dont know you personally and even if we disagree there is no reason I should make sweeping generalizations. I'm sorry for posting before thinking.
I am lucky enough to have both MD and DO acceptances at this point in the cycle. I'll admit I have a hard time when people focus so much on the negatives of going to an Osteopathic school because for some people these schools are the only medical schools they are going to get into and I can completely understand the frustration of finally realizing your dream (becoming a physician) only to have that accomplishment negated by the comments of others. I understand people are just being realistic but remember you are dealing with people's dreams and aspirations. Dont be a bucket of crabs. Whether its intentional or not many of these comments come off as being professional bullying and I dont like to see people bullied. Unfortunately that is exactly what I was doing. I do respect everyone's opinion, I just forgot that for a moment.

 

[yehhhboiii]

maybe if they think enough happy thoughts, they'll get that ortho residency they've always dreamed of

 

[willen101383]

While I hate feeding into some premed pissing contest here, I simply cannot recommend anyone go DO at this point in time. That being said, I am an DO MS4 applying purely allo into something other than medicine/family and I have plenty of interviews. But yeah go to Rosalind Franklin hands down.

 

[touchpause13]

While I hate feeding into some premed pissing contest here, I simply cannot recommend anyone go DO at this point in time. That being said, I am an DO MS4 applying purely allo into something other than medicine/family and I have plenty of interviews. But yeah go to Rosalind Franklin hands down.

What makes you say this?

 

[willen101383]

What makes you say this?

Like what many people say: its just an uphill battle. The attitude of the AOA sucks, and its pretty obvious they dont care about students/residents, or advancement of osteopathic medicine. It sucks having to deal with OMM, even though its a relatively small time sink, and i dont think it displaces learning anything else, but its just a pain to deal with. Especially if you never intend to use it in practice. It sucks having to take the USMLE if you want to put yourself on equal footing for ACGME programs (you dont HAVE to take it, but youd be dumb not to). Lastly, the quality of rotation sites is a big issue. Sad to say, but its true. Read some of the stories. Ive been relatively lucky, but speaking with MD 4th years ive been on rotations with, ive come to realize how uniform MD rotations are in comparison. That being said, I got a fine education I would say is on par with the other MD programs in my town for the most part.

So yeah, just an uphill battle and if you have a choice go MD. But if its going to come down to going DO or waiting like 3 years, doing a post bacc etc, to get into an MD school......do the DO.

 

[willen101383]

ACGME Gen Surg, no not realistically. You can do an AOA residency in gen surg and contrary to popular belief there are actually some really good AOA residencies for gen surgery. Like you mentioned you realistically can get into good ACGME and AOA primary care residencies in FM, IM, OB/GYN, Psych and I have heard you can get into really good EM just maybe not top EM residencies. Other ACGME residencies that are DO friendly are Anesthesia and you can get into the top residencies in PMR pretty easily as a DO. PMR is one thing I am very interested in and you will find every big name PMR residency out there with DOs in their program. You can also go on to sub-specialize in PMR in pediatrics, sports medicine, pain management, and spinal injury.

I have a friend/classmate who has like 15 ACGME gen surg interviews. Hasnt matched yet, but he has plenty of interest. Just sayin. EM is extremely DO friendly, and you will find DOs in MOST ACGME programs. When I applied, I went through every ACGME EM program, and checked their resident lists. I would say there were only maybe 10 or 15 that had no DO residents. ALSO, in EM getting a "top" (assuming the pre allo definition of "top" is some big name ivory tower site) isnt as important, as lets say medicine. Level 1 trauma center with good pathology, good teaching, good hours, happy residents? Youll find that at MOST EM programs, that dont fulfill that pre allo "top" status. And this works both ways. You dont need a big name to have a great program that is going to have superb training. Which is the better EM program in baltimore? Hopkins or U Maryland? Hint....its not hopkins.

 

[circulus vitios]

I have a friend/classmate who has like 15 ACGME gen surg interviews. Hasnt matched yet, but he has plenty of interest. Just sayin. EM is extremely DO friendly, and you will find DOs in MOST ACGME programs. When I applied, I went through every ACGME EM program, and checked their resident lists. I would say there were only maybe 10 or 15 that had no DO residents. ALSO, in EM getting a "top" (assuming the pre allo definition of "top" is some big name ivory tower site) isnt as important, as lets say medicine. Level 1 trauma center with good pathology, good teaching, good hours, happy residents? Youll find that at MOST EM programs, that dont fulfill that pre allo "top" status. And this works both ways. You dont need a big name to have a great program that is going to have superb training. Which is the better EM program in baltimore? Hopkins or U Maryland? Hint....its not hopkins.

For people who like numbers,

For students and graduates of osteopathic medical schools (“Osteo”), the largest numbers were matched to:
Internal Medicine (Categorical) (413)
Family Medicine (380)
Pediatrics (Categorical) (254)
Emergency Medicine (178)
Anesthesiology PGY-1 and PGY-2 (175)
Psychiatry (Categorical) (159)
Obstetrics-Gynecology (130)
Physical Medicine & Rehab PGY-1 and PGY-2 (118)
Medicine-Preliminary (PGY-1 Only) (104)

Source: Results and Data: 2013 Main Residency Match, http://www.nrmp.org/match-data/main-residency-match-data/

 

[Skeeks]

For people who like numbers,



Source: Results and Data: 2013 Main Residency Match, http://www.nrmp.org/match-data/main-residency-match-data/

Thanks for the info guys, I hadn't seen these facts yet.

 

[touchpause13]

Yeah that's a cool link- thanks!

 

[Trastuz]

Having compared some of my rotations to those of my DO friends, I must admit that their rotations often seemed superior at least in terms of being able to practice technical skills. I never got to first assist in surgery, for example, because there was always someone in the hierarchy who outranked me and wanted the opportunity. On the other hand I did think there was a much greater emphasis on didactic learning on my rotations.

Regardless of whether you think one school's rotation design is better than the other, it's absolutely ridiculous to say that med school is a more important factor in your training than residency. Med school is where you go to get into residency. Residency is where you learn how to be a (good) doctor. Therefore, my opinion is you should go to the school that can land you the best residency.

 

[La Presse]

Is it relatively easy for a DO grad to match ACGME Gen Surg?

 

[circulus vitios]

Is it relatively easy for a DO grad to match ACGME Gen Surg?

I don't know about easy, but page #31 shows about 30 DOs matching into categorical surg per year, and about 20 matching into prelim surg per year.

 

[verynice]

I would choose the DO school. I want to be a physician and I don't care about the letters behind my name. I would not mind having to work around residencies that aren't DO friendly. But that's just my opinion

 

[Espadaleader]

I would choose the DO school. I want to be a physician and I don't care about the letters behind my name. I would not mind having to work around residencies that aren't DO friendly. But that's just my opinion

You're living in a dream world. You must not understand the reality of medicine. If you want to do a ACGME residency, you are at a disadvantage PERIOD if you do DO. Now, if you do not want to do a ACGME residency, you are fine. However, I will restate this again, you are at a disadvantage PERIOD if you do DO. Only someone that does not understand medical education would say something like this. Do you really think residency programs will take DO students over MD students? No, because that's not fair to MD students. DOs can do AOA/ACGME residencies. MDs can only do ACGME residencies. So, as the number of MD students increases and DO students increases, the yield on DOs going to ACGME resdiencies will decrease. PERIOD.

However, there are AWESOME AOA residencies and if you don't want a ACGME residency and don't want to do a ACGME fellowship that a DO is a great career path!

Watch this video from AAMC. The argument is unassailable.

 

[Espadaleader]

""

 

[Espadaleader]

Its not about DO vs. MD, its about creating more residencies so both DO and MD students can become excellent physicians to care for our country!

 

[verynice]

You're living in a dream world. You must not understand the reality of medicine. If you want to do a ACGME residency, you are at a disadvantage PERIOD if you do DO. Now, if you do not want to do a ACGME residency, you are fine. However, I will restate this again, you are at a disadvantage PERIOD if you do DO. Only someone that does not understand medical education would say something like this. Do you really think residency programs will take DO students over MD students? No, because that's not fair to MD students. DOs can do AOA/ACGME residencies. MDs can only do ACGME residencies. So, as the number of MD students increases and DO students increases, the yield on DOs going to ACGME resdiencies will decrease. PERIOD.

However, there are AWESOME AOA residencies and if you don't want a ACGME residency and don't want to do a ACGME fellowship that a DO is a great career path!

Watch this video from AAMC. The argument is unassailable.

Yes, I understand this. I would rather get a good education from an institution that is in good standing so that I could be the best physician possible because being a doctor is not about me. That's just my personal preference though.

 

[Skeeks]

Yes, I understand this. I would rather get a good education from an institution that is in good standing so that I could be the best physician possible because being a doctor is not about me. That's just my personal preference though.

Well put. Esada, does that video count DO not matching into ACGME or DO not matching into AOA?

 

[Espadaleader]

I am pretty sure that it counts only DOs going into ACGME. Honestly, DO programs are awesome because you're pretty much guaranteed to match. Only a DO can do DO residency. MD residencies are used by competitive DOs and internationals so low tier MD programs will really be sent reeling. Just my opinion though.

 

[ace12345]

I am pretty sure that it counts only DOs going into ACGME. Honestly, DO programs are awesome because you're pretty much guaranteed to match. Only a DO can do DO residency. MD residencies are used by competitive DOs and internationals so low tier MD programs will really be sent reeling. Just my opinion though.

Yeah that is a great video. You have to wonder how this is going to affect med school choices. It seems like many SDNers support going to the cheapest school, but perhaps that ideology will need to change as a result of the residency shortages? Not sure

 

[notbobtrustme]

Yes, I understand this. I would rather get a good education from an institution that is in good standing so that I could be the best physician possible because being a doctor is not about me. That's just my personal preference though.

Then any MD school will do that for you. Even the ones on probation. Going on probation is very rarely a measure of educational quality. Schools go on probation for the stupidest things like not having enough locker space at rotation sites.

 

[notbobtrustme]

I am pretty sure that it counts only DOs going into ACGME. Honestly, DO programs are awesome because you're pretty much guaranteed to match. Only a DO can do DO residency. MD residencies are used by competitive DOs and internationals so low tier MD programs will really be sent reeling. Just my opinion though.

Low tier MD >>> DO >>>>>> IMGs. The lowest MD school will have a match list that would be the envy of any DO school.

 

[touchpause13]

There is an attitude of prestige here on SDN that drives me nuts. So much emphasis gets put match lists and top whatever the hell schools. I understand some people go to a prestigious university to get into a prestigious med school to get into a prestigious residency. But you know what? Not everyone cares about stuff like that.

Maybe I'm biased because I transferred out of a prestigious university cuz I hated it. But seriously I *just* want to be a doctor. I want to do primary care in the midwest and DO suits me just fine for that goal

 

[touchpause13]

There is an attitude of prestige here on SDN that drives me nuts. So much emphasis gets put match lists and top whatever the hell schools. I understand some people go to a prestigious university to get into a prestigious med school to get into a prestigious residency. But you know what? Not everyone cares about stuff like that.

Maybe I'm biased because I transferred out of a prestigious university cuz I hated it. But seriously I *just* want to be a doctor. I want to do primary care in the midwest and DO suits me just fine for that goal

 

[KnuxNole]

Yes, I understand this. I would rather get a good education from an institution that is in good standing so that I could be the best physician possible because being a doctor is not about me. That's just my personal preference though.

Going to med school IS all about you though. Never base decisions based on other people. Do what you want.

 

[notbobtrustme]

There is an attitude of prestige here on SDN that drives me nuts. So much emphasis gets put match lists and top whatever the hell schools. I understand some people go to a prestigious university to get into a prestigious med school to get into a prestigious residency. But you know what? Not everyone cares about stuff like that.

Maybe I'm biased because I transferred out of a prestigious university cuz I hated it. But seriously I *just* want to be a doctor. I want to do primary care in the midwest and DO suits me just fine for that goal

Some of us want to be something more than a PCP. For example, I'm leaning towards Cards or Heme-Onc. Going DO would be a major disadvantage along every step of the road. Getting into a strong residency program, matching into a fellowship and then going onto practice all have major hurdles for this path. And the vast majority of students will not be PCPs and in that case, going DO is a disadvantage, period.

 

[Skeeks]

Some of us want to be something more than a PCP. For example, I'm leaning towards Cards or Heme-Onc. Going DO would be a major disadvantage along every step of the road. Getting into a strong residency program, matching into a fellowship and then going onto practice all have major hurdles for this path. And the vast majority of students will not be PCPs and in that case, going DO is a disadvantage, period.

I really dont know the statistics behind this so please fill me in but I thought the majority of physicians were practing in FM, IM, EM, OBGYN, Psych, and Peds. Is that not the case?

 

[notbobtrustme]

I really dont know the statistics behind this so please fill me in but I thought the majority of physicians were practing in FM, IM, EM, OBGYN, Psych, and Peds. Is that not the case?

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1475191
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/where-have-all-the-primary-care-doctors-gone/

Basically, 80-90% of all IM residents will go on and practice specialty medicine. Only about 20% of med students end up in PCP fields.

 

[ES2]

Some of us want to be something more than a PCP. For example, I'm leaning towards Cards or Heme-Onc. Going DO would be a major disadvantage along every step of the road. Getting into a strong residency program, matching into a fellowship and then going onto practice all have major hurdles for this path. And the vast majority of students will not be PCPs and in that case, going DO is a disadvantage, period.

This isn't accurate, there are plenty of DO cardiologist. According to the Match data, most DO residents who applied to cardiology or hematology matched.

Osteopathic match rates for Cardiology and Hemotology were 65 and 63 percent respectively.
Allopathic match rates were 85% and 83% respectively.
So yes, there is a discrepancy between MD and DO here; however, it is not as night and day as people make it look.

http://b83c73bcf0e7ca356c80-e8560f4...t/uploads/2013/08/chartingoutcomessms2011.pdf

 

[yehhhboiii]

yeah it's easy to say that you want to be a pcp now when you have little, if any, experience with primary care
see how you feel once you start getting clinical experience. maybe you'll find that you love otolaryngology and hate adjusting meds for diabetes and hypertension all day
there are a ton of people who go into medical school knowing for sure that they're going into a certain field and then they realize that it wasn't what they thought it was and something else really clicked for them
you don't want to limit your options because you want to prove to people that you don't care about prestige (lol)

 

[notbobtrustme]

This isn't accurate, there are plenty of DO cardiologist. According to the Match data, most DO residents who applied to cardiology or hematology matched.

Osteopathic match rates for Cardiology and Hemotology were 65 and 63 percent respectively.
Allopathic match rates were 85% and 83% respectively.
So yes, there is a discrepancy between MD and DO here; however, it is not as night and day as people make it look.

http://b83c73bcf0e7ca356c80-e8560f4...t/uploads/2013/08/chartingoutcomessms2011.pdf

How is it not accurate? I just said it's tougher to become a cardiologist/oncologist and you proved it with data.

 

[sobored]

There is an attitude of prestige here on SDN that drives me nuts. So much emphasis gets put match lists and top whatever the hell schools. I understand some people go to a prestigious university to get into a prestigious med school to get into a prestigious residency. But you know what? Not everyone cares about stuff like that.

Maybe I'm biased because I transferred out of a prestigious university cuz I hated it. But seriously I *just* want to be a doctor. I want to do primary care in the midwest and DO suits me just fine for that goal

You are missing the point at an overwhelming level on this issue. Some people care about prestige and go to big names for that reason, but the main reason why most people want to go to these programs is because they will absolutely make you a better physician because they see so many different cases. You will get all the bread and butter cases, and all the zebra cases you can imagine - these are undoubtedly aspects of residency training that make you a really good physician. The "prestigious" academic medical centers provide exceptional training, and you will understand what I'm talking about when you start med school. You will see that you don't "just want to be a doctor," but you want to be excellent, and exposure to many different cases at a rigorous level will help you get to that goal.

 

[yehhhboiii]

This isn't accurate, there are plenty of DO cardiologist. According to the Match data, most DO residents who applied to cardiology or hematology matched.

Osteopathic match rates for Cardiology and Hemotology were 65 and 63 percent respectively.
Allopathic match rates were 85% and 83% respectively.
So yes, there is a discrepancy between MD and DO here; however, it is not as night and day as people make it look.

http://b83c73bcf0e7ca356c80-e8560f4...t/uploads/2013/08/chartingoutcomessms2011.pdf

that's nice except percentages don't mean much by themselves
look at the absolute number of people who got in
think about self-selection bias

 

[ES2]

that's nice except percentages don't mean much by themselves
look at the absolute number of people who got in
think about self-selection bias

Yes, it is a smaller sample size for DO applicants, and there probably is some bias.

How is it not accurate? I just said it's tougher to become a cardiologist/oncologist and you proved it with data.

It's not accurate because being a DO is not a "major disadvantage" for specialties like Cardiology and Hem/Onc. Furthermore, I didn't prove anything other than the fact DO's who applied for these specialties matched more often than not. If OP is smart enough to land one of these residencies as an MD, chances are they can do it as a DO as well.

 

[notbobtrustme]

It's not accurate because being a DO is not a "major disadvantage" for specialties like Cardiology and Hem/Onc. Furthermore, I didn't prove anything other than the fact DO's who applied for these specialties matched more often than not. If OP is smart enough to land one of these residencies as an MD, chances are they can do it as a DO as well.

It is a major disadvantage. You are looking at people who get into programs that let them get into competitive fellowships. You are missing a whole 'nother gating mechanism when applying to ACGME residencies. DOs consistently match to weaker programs and that limits their ability to apply to competitive fellowships like Cards/Heme-Onc. You are looking past that gate and there's still a DO bias from those who attended more rigorous residencies.

And a 20% decrease in match rates is a major disadvantage, especially when you are talking about major career choices.

And no, just because you can match as an MD doesn't mean you can match as a DO. Hell, even lower tier MD schools can have a tough time matching into the most competitive residencies and specialties. Doing so from a DO is going to be impossible. There won't ever be a DO that graduates from JHU Osler Internal Medicine no matter how good of an applicant they are.

 

[ES2]

It is a major disadvantage. You are looking at people who get into programs that let them get into competitive fellowships. You are missing a whole 'nother gating mechanism when applying to ACGME residencies. DOs consistently match to weaker programs and that limits their ability to apply to competitive fellowships like Cards/Heme-Onc. You are looking past that gate and there's still a DO bias from those who attended more rigorous residencies.

And a 20% decrease in match rates is a major disadvantage, especially when you are talking about major career choices.

And no, just because you can match as an MD doesn't mean you can match as a DO. Hell, even lower tier MD schools can have a tough time matching into the most competitive residencies and specialties. Doing so from a DO is going to be impossible. There won't ever be a DO that graduates from JHU Osler Internal Medicine no matter how good of an applicant they are.

I think you missed my point, I'm not talking about competitive residencies. I'm talking about two specialties that you mentioned having an interest in: cardiology and hem/onc.

 

[notbobtrustme]

I think you missed my point, I'm not talking about competitive residencies. I'm talking about two specialties that you mentioned having an interest in: cardiology and hem/onc.

You don't get to Cards/Heme-Onc unless you get into a competitive residency.