I was planning on shadowing a PA soon and was wondering about whether they are usually called Doctor or Mr? I don't think it's that big a deal to ask him but was hoping not to commit a faux pas.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Do you call a PA Doctor?
- Thread starter gschl1234
- Start date
I realize that they get a graduate degree which is not an MD, DO or Ph.D. but the confusing thing is that at the free clinic where I volunteer PAs are called "Doctors" always just like any MD or DO. I wouldn't want to offend anyone. Does anyone else have experience where they've heard PAs addressed as "Doctor"?
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2003
- Messages
- 4,007
- Reaction score
- 27
No one is gonna care one way or the other. You will most likely address that person on a fist name basis.
Now that seems a bit harsh seeing as the PAs don't ask to be called "Doctor" the manager of the free clinic calls them "Doctors" so everyone else follows. They don't correct her but I can see how it can be awkward, can't you?
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2003
- Messages
- 102
- Reaction score
- 0
Even if they have Ph.D.'s, in a clinical setting PA's are not to be called "doctor".
All the PA's I have met ask their patients to call them by their first name. (Many call them "doctor" anyway.)
All the PA's I have met ask their patients to call them by their first name. (Many call them "doctor" anyway.)
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2003
- Messages
- 8,394
- Reaction score
- 37
What's your source on this? It sounds suspiciously like one of those things "everybody knows" but nobody can actually validate.
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2003
- Messages
- 1,096
- Reaction score
- 8
Hey this is a very good point and I have read other peoples' comments in other forums about this very issue; in the clinical setting where I work the pa's are referred to as 'Dr' just like other people have described. I have tried to correct people, but it seems that the pa's themselves are encourgaing this line of thinking. It bothers me and I am not sure about what I should do. It makes me feel very uncomfortable and like there's something not right here.
Anymore ideas? I don't want to get my butt in trouble, so I just look the other way, but it's hard to have respect for them when they seem to be trying to pass for something they're not.
Anymore ideas? I don't want to get my butt in trouble, so I just look the other way, but it's hard to have respect for them when they seem to be trying to pass for something they're not.
- Joined
- May 7, 2003
- Messages
- 1,520
- Reaction score
- 25
It's a tough call... I guess I'd like to know whether, when the care team is away from patient areas, PAs are still addressed as 'Doctor' by the other staff members.
If they're actively encouraging people (patients especially) to call them 'doctor,' or introducing themselves as such, that's questionable at best and criminally fraudulent at worst. If they're just choosing not to get into it and don't always correct patients who say it first, that's a lot less of an issue for me.
Heck, I'm a lowly HCA, and patients call me 'doctor' sometimes. (It must be the scrubs and the stethoscope.) If I'm holding a thermometer in their mouth or sticking EKG leads to their naked chest, I'm not going to choose that vulnerable moment to lecture a patient on the various members of the care team, our education, and our roles. You (usually) don't need a Board-certified doctor to be the one to raise the head of your bed, but if you think you got one, then ultimately it matters not at all.
On the other hand, if asked if I am a doctor, the answer is unfailingly and obviously 'no,' and the same would be true if I were a PA. True, I'd get tired of explaining that NAs' job is to assist nurses, and PAs' job is to care for patients alongside docs, but I'd make the distinction whenever I felt there was confusion on the patient's part which might influence their understanding of or decisions about their care.
Another random thought: shouldn't the office have a little sign up near the check-in desk explaining 'What Is A PA?' I've seen those frequently, and it seems like they'd be handy.
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2003
- Messages
- 102
- Reaction score
- 0
To intentionally lead people to believe you're a physician in a clinical setting (when you are not) is indeed criminally fraudulent.
One PA I shadowed had on the back of his business card printed the explanation of what a PA is and is not. I thought that was cool.
One PA I shadowed had on the back of his business card printed the explanation of what a PA is and is not. I thought that was cool.
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2003
- Messages
- 1,096
- Reaction score
- 8
These are helpful comments. I don't know what the deal is here where I work but I personally like the idea of a clear sign explaining the breakdown of who is doing what. Also the idea of a business card saying the same thing. I'm all for good professional boundaries.
It might be a more subtle case of sin by omission. That by not saying anything when people say Dr, then you are passively allowing them to think that you are one - without actually saying "I am a Dr."
It's not my company so I just mind my own business and try and just do my job. Still, these are interesting comments and I appreciate the responses.
It might be a more subtle case of sin by omission. That by not saying anything when people say Dr, then you are passively allowing them to think that you are one - without actually saying "I am a Dr."
It's not my company so I just mind my own business and try and just do my job. Still, these are interesting comments and I appreciate the responses.
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2003
- Messages
- 55
- Reaction score
- 0
PAs should not be referred to as "Doctor" in clinical settings. The lay public associates "Doctor" with "Physician".
It is wrong for a PA to represent his/herself as a physician...and in many states illegal. There are ways to correct the patients and other staff members with tact...not only is it the right thing to do-it is an opportunity to spread info and awareness about the profession...
My lab coat not only says "PA-C" but also has "Physician Assistant" spelled on it, as do my business cards.
It is wrong for a PA to represent his/herself as a physician...and in many states illegal. There are ways to correct the patients and other staff members with tact...not only is it the right thing to do-it is an opportunity to spread info and awareness about the profession...
My lab coat not only says "PA-C" but also has "Physician Assistant" spelled on it, as do my business cards.
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2002
- Messages
- 520
- Reaction score
- 9
I think it is very noteworthy an ethical the way many of your are responding. I have worked with many Physician Assistants who do little to alter the misconceptions of the public toward their degree. I am glad to know that I was seeing the minority and not the beginnings of fraudulent behavior on a grand scale. I applaud your honesty. It is a shame that others do not have pride in their degree and wish to misrepresent themselves.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2003
- Messages
- 27
- Reaction score
- 1
while I think PAs should not misrepresent themselves (I have yet to see one who does) i understand the desire to not correct everyone who calls you Dr. As a medical student I am called Dr by people all the time and it takes too much time to correct everyone. I always introduce myself as a medical student and if they call me Dr afterwards then I let them.
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2003
- Messages
- 55
- Reaction score
- 0
Then...bottom line up front...you are wrong.
DocWagner, disappointed to hear that there are cases you have encountered, but glad to be part of an example that it isn't occuring en masse...
Besides, how can we build public confidence in the PA profession if they think we are physicians!
DocWagner, disappointed to hear that there are cases you have encountered, but glad to be part of an example that it isn't occuring en masse...
Besides, how can we build public confidence in the PA profession if they think we are physicians!
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2002
- Messages
- 1,057
- Reaction score
- 3
Listen folks, there is only so much one can do to deter a patient from calling you Dr. I practiced for 4 years full time as a PA and patients never stopped calling me Dr. I corrected them time and time again, but even then some of them said they felt more comfortable calling me that because they felt I really was their "Doc". Its funny the definitions people use for the word doc. I have it tattooed on my left bicep because as a corpsman with the Marines, I really was their "doc". Its really just a patient's way of respecting you when they don't otherwise know how. If you abide by all state laws, then you are covered. I had a sign in my lobby stating that I was a PA and not a physician. I wore a white coat that stated I was a physician assistant (spelled out), and I was always up front and introduced myself as PA Matt M. It is unrealistic to think you won't be called doc routinely, but you can only do so much before you lose your mind.
Ask any patient in a hospital today and most will tell you they dont know who is the doctor/PA/nurse/janitor. Even the white lab coat doesnt mean much anymore, as some nurses aids wear them, as well as the phlebotomists, x-ray techs, ect. If I had a dollar for every time a patient thought I was the doctor (I dont wear a white lab coat) I would be rich.
As health care professionals we must tell the patients who we are, but I know this falls on deaf ears many times. I agree that most patients will refer to the PA as "doctor" despite numerous corrections, name tags spelt out in huge lettering, ect. That is OK, but its NOT ok to tell the patient (or anyone else in the clinical setting) that you are a doctor. I am not saying that anyone here is telling the patient that they are the doctor, but last time I checked, use of the title is protected by law. Its a pet peeve of mine when I hear nurses aids/patient care techs/medical assistants call themselves "nurse". They are not nurses, and it is illegal for them as well to say that they are.
On a side note, most of the patients that I come across like being treated by a PA, they almost always spend more time with the patient, actually explain to them what is going on, and assist with care when needed. I often get requests from my patients to "see the PA that was just here" instead of the resident they just saw and spent all of 10 seconds with them. All of the PA's I work with from all different disciplines are all knowledgable professionals, and I really like working with them.
As health care professionals we must tell the patients who we are, but I know this falls on deaf ears many times. I agree that most patients will refer to the PA as "doctor" despite numerous corrections, name tags spelt out in huge lettering, ect. That is OK, but its NOT ok to tell the patient (or anyone else in the clinical setting) that you are a doctor. I am not saying that anyone here is telling the patient that they are the doctor, but last time I checked, use of the title is protected by law. Its a pet peeve of mine when I hear nurses aids/patient care techs/medical assistants call themselves "nurse". They are not nurses, and it is illegal for them as well to say that they are.
On a side note, most of the patients that I come across like being treated by a PA, they almost always spend more time with the patient, actually explain to them what is going on, and assist with care when needed. I often get requests from my patients to "see the PA that was just here" instead of the resident they just saw and spent all of 10 seconds with them. All of the PA's I work with from all different disciplines are all knowledgable professionals, and I really like working with them.
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2004
- Messages
- 28
- Reaction score
- 0
I def agree with professional boundaries after all thats the point of the PA-MD relationship, but it would be virtually impossible and actually unfair to have a sign breaking down who is doing what. PAs are only limited to what they can and cant do at the MDs discretion. For the most part PAs can do just about everything an MD can so there shouldnt be too many differences on that breakdown and it would probably make it more confusing for the patient or whomever is reading the sign, as to what the difference is. I think the business card idea is great, but it should be more focused on the PA and the MDs education rather than a list of what they can and cant do. Because it is really the amount of years of schooling that we get that sets us apart not what are capable of doing. Even a sign in a healthcare institution with the same information would be helpful.
In reference to what the PA should be called, in my experience it is either Mr/Mrs or simply by the first name but that is up to the PA. Any PA who accepts being called Dr is unprofessional. I understand the frustration with explaining our role to people, but once you become a PA it is something that you take on as part of your role, after all PAs are focused on patient education, and educating them about our profession is one of them.
- Joined
- Nov 19, 1998
- Messages
- 145
- Reaction score
- 1
From my experience, patients do call PAs doctors all of the time, but I have yet to see a PAs introduce themselves as such. Actually it is really no big deal as long as PAs function within their scope. It makes no difference to the quality of care a PA provides.
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2002
- Messages
- 520
- Reaction score
- 9
First and foremost, to be called "doctor" you need a doctorate.
Secondly, in a clinical situation, it is understood that "doctor" is in reference to a MD/DO...not a PharmD, PhD, DPT, or JD.
If a patient needs to be corrected, then correct them. Pretty easy.
I was called "Dr." when I was a PT, that created unfair and unrealistic expectations. I neither deserved nor wanted that title unless I earned it.
Secondly, in a clinical situation, it is understood that "doctor" is in reference to a MD/DO...not a PharmD, PhD, DPT, or JD.
If a patient needs to be corrected, then correct them. Pretty easy.
I was called "Dr." when I was a PT, that created unfair and unrealistic expectations. I neither deserved nor wanted that title unless I earned it.
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2001
- Messages
- 1,785
- Reaction score
- 23
Although I know you didn't go into this in detail, just wanted to point out something.
Much of the reason that the PA can spend so much time with the patient is because they usually work a set number of hours so it doesn't matter how much they accomplish. They can just leave the rest for the resident or on call PA. Residents on the other hand, are given so a certain amount of work to do (a very large amount) and must finish it before they leave. So spending the time the PA does with the patient, the resident would leave at 11pm each night, wheras the PA leaves at 4pm no matter what. All while making twice what the resident makes. Yeah, thats not gonna breed any resentment whatsoever.
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2003
- Messages
- 20
- Reaction score
- 0
<<<Much of the reason that the PA can spend so much time with the patient is because they usually work a set number of hours so it doesn't matter how much they accomplish.>>
Thats a pretty broad statement. At some facilities that may be the case but its definately not the case everywhere.
<< Residents on the other hand, are given so a certain amount of work to do (a very large amount) and must finish it before they leave. So spending the time the PA does with the patient, the resident would leave at 11pm each night, wheras the PA leaves at 4pm no matter what.>>
Youre right PA's generally dont have to finish their work. And they aren't generally given a large amount of work either lol.
<<All while making twice what the resident makes. Yeah, thats not gonna breed any resentment whatsoever>>
Only a simpleton would feel resentment.
rob
Thats a pretty broad statement. At some facilities that may be the case but its definately not the case everywhere.
<< Residents on the other hand, are given so a certain amount of work to do (a very large amount) and must finish it before they leave. So spending the time the PA does with the patient, the resident would leave at 11pm each night, wheras the PA leaves at 4pm no matter what.>>
Youre right PA's generally dont have to finish their work. And they aren't generally given a large amount of work either lol.
<<All while making twice what the resident makes. Yeah, thats not gonna breed any resentment whatsoever>>
Only a simpleton would feel resentment.
rob
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2002
- Messages
- 1,057
- Reaction score
- 3
WBC,
You haven't a clue in the world. Before I went to medical school, I worked as a PA where I saw a set number of patients on my schedule. I did not leave at 5:00 PM when I was behind and there were still 5 people to be seen. Your experience with PA's is obviously very little. Oh, and if you think a resident will resent a PA because they make more money, then I suppose residents also resent RN's, attendings, pharmacists, and hell even the custodial crew if you want to break down salaries into actual hourly earnings. I think you have looked into one too many a hot lamp my friend.
You haven't a clue in the world. Before I went to medical school, I worked as a PA where I saw a set number of patients on my schedule. I did not leave at 5:00 PM when I was behind and there were still 5 people to be seen. Your experience with PA's is obviously very little. Oh, and if you think a resident will resent a PA because they make more money, then I suppose residents also resent RN's, attendings, pharmacists, and hell even the custodial crew if you want to break down salaries into actual hourly earnings. I think you have looked into one too many a hot lamp my friend.
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2001
- Messages
- 1,785
- Reaction score
- 23
My experience with PAs is limited to 2 facilities, but in I have been exposed to several PAs at these facilities. At both, on a University Hospital, the other a VA hospital. I did a year of internal medicine internship in addition to my 2 years of clincal exposure in medical school. My interactions have generally been exactly as I mentioned above.
Situations I have been in:
The PA takes 3 hours to see one straightforward consult in the ER. Why? Don't know, but at 4pm they checked out the 2 admits they were in charge of to the on call resident, who, by the way also had to cross cover on 40 patients.
PA on cardiolgy team leaves promptly at 4 pm daily, any leaves everyone wondering, what did she do today? No notes to her name, 1 admit under her belt. And thats it? Resident writes the other 9 notes and all the orders.
And several other similar episodes.
I am not talking about outpatient clinics. I am talking about hospital based PAs that I have seen in action. Of course this is not all of them. But the percentage that do leave at 4pm no matter what and leave their work for the resident are a decent percentage and it creates a lot of tension and resentment.
Situations I have been in:
The PA takes 3 hours to see one straightforward consult in the ER. Why? Don't know, but at 4pm they checked out the 2 admits they were in charge of to the on call resident, who, by the way also had to cross cover on 40 patients.
PA on cardiolgy team leaves promptly at 4 pm daily, any leaves everyone wondering, what did she do today? No notes to her name, 1 admit under her belt. And thats it? Resident writes the other 9 notes and all the orders.
And several other similar episodes.
I am not talking about outpatient clinics. I am talking about hospital based PAs that I have seen in action. Of course this is not all of them. But the percentage that do leave at 4pm no matter what and leave their work for the resident are a decent percentage and it creates a lot of tension and resentment.
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2002
- Messages
- 1,057
- Reaction score
- 3
Well there you have it WBC. I guess we should all change our opinions of the PA profession based on your extensive double blind placebo controlled viewpoint. I am only razzing you WBC. Just want you to keep an open mind of the PA profession while you overread all those films we order to keep you in business. It honestly sounds like you just have not met the good ones in my former profession. Even as a soon-to-be physician, there are many of my PA colleagues that I would trust my life with over many a doctor. Anyway, good luck with Rads!
Matt
Matt
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2002
- Messages
- 2,394
- Reaction score
- 532
I had the misfortune of working with several PA's who did nothing to correct pts who thought they (PA's) were doctors. One went so far as to yell at me when I informed the pt of the difference (bad move on his part). It's one thing when a pt continues to call a PA "Dr." after repeated attempts by the PA to explain the difference...quite another to let a new pt think a PA is a doctor.
I've worked with 5 different PA's over the years, and I can say that only one was conscientious enough to take the time to clarify the matter.
I've worked with 5 different PA's over the years, and I can say that only one was conscientious enough to take the time to clarify the matter.
D
deleted6669
WBC-
I'm sure that there are lazy follks in every profession .....
I have always had the good forthune to work in settings where the pa's and md/do staff work as colleagues and have the same responsibilities in terms of # pts sen and end of shift responsibilities. I take sign outs from md's and on occassion will sign out a pt at the end of the shift if they are going to be waiting a while for a study like a c.t. or vq scan that won't be done for a while. in our dept the pa and md stats are very similar in terms of pts seen/hr and outcomes.
I'm sure that there are lazy follks in every profession .....
I have always had the good forthune to work in settings where the pa's and md/do staff work as colleagues and have the same responsibilities in terms of # pts sen and end of shift responsibilities. I take sign outs from md's and on occassion will sign out a pt at the end of the shift if they are going to be waiting a while for a study like a c.t. or vq scan that won't be done for a while. in our dept the pa and md stats are very similar in terms of pts seen/hr and outcomes.
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2001
- Messages
- 11,749
- Reaction score
- 24
There isn't anything tricky about those. In the clinical setting "doctor" is the appropriate term for each of those.
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2002
- Messages
- 520
- Reaction score
- 9
Serfes,
In a clinical setting, Doctor is a term patients use when referencing the "Physician" 99 times out 100. When a patient says "MY doctor yadda yadda" they don't mean physical therapist or pharmacist. When doing rotations as a medical student, there was a PhD and medical student...he was NOT called "doctor" for obvious reasons. It only creates confusion in the hospital setting. I certainly do not own the copyright for the term "doctor", but I can tell you what is accepted practice.
When I was a PT, I worked with several PT,PhD's and NONE of them used the term "doctor" in the hospital or in the clinic. When a nurse or patient screamed "doctor" (the ultimate litmus test)...only the Physicians turned around.
This is not a scientific study.
Really...it isn't as confusing as one thinks. Professionals tend not to make this a problem.
In a clinical setting, Doctor is a term patients use when referencing the "Physician" 99 times out 100. When a patient says "MY doctor yadda yadda" they don't mean physical therapist or pharmacist. When doing rotations as a medical student, there was a PhD and medical student...he was NOT called "doctor" for obvious reasons. It only creates confusion in the hospital setting. I certainly do not own the copyright for the term "doctor", but I can tell you what is accepted practice.
When I was a PT, I worked with several PT,PhD's and NONE of them used the term "doctor" in the hospital or in the clinic. When a nurse or patient screamed "doctor" (the ultimate litmus test)...only the Physicians turned around.
This is not a scientific study.
Really...it isn't as confusing as one thinks. Professionals tend not to make this a problem.
If a nurse or patient screamed "doctor", I would turn around and I am just an EMS worker - not because I have some sort of inflated self-worth, but because obviously something important is happening and either I need to help or get the heck out of the way...
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2003
- Messages
- 50
- Reaction score
- 1
Dentists and optometrists aren't usually referred to as physicians either. You said earlier that you didn't want to be called "Dr." as a PT because you hadn't earned it and did not deserve the title. I think anyone who possesses a doctorate (whether it's a PharmD, DPT, or whatever) has certainly earned it. What's so hard about saying "Hi, I'm Dr. X, your pharmacist," or "Hi, I'm Dr. Y, your physical therapist." Physicians do it all the time when they specify what type of doctor they are. I understand if you're saying that it isn't usually done in practice, but I'm trying to understand why it shouldn't be.
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2003
- Messages
- 55
- Reaction score
- 0
We've gone to splitting hairs here I believe...
The original post was asking about PAs being referred to as "Doctor" in clinical settings.
It is true that "Doctor" is equated to "Physician" in these settings. PAs have a responsibility to ensure that they are not represented as Physicians...you may not be able to change the behavior of calling someone wearing a white coat and writing orders and doing exams "doctor", but they should make it clear that they aren't physicians.
The original post was asking about PAs being referred to as "Doctor" in clinical settings.
It is true that "Doctor" is equated to "Physician" in these settings. PAs have a responsibility to ensure that they are not represented as Physicians...you may not be able to change the behavior of calling someone wearing a white coat and writing orders and doing exams "doctor", but they should make it clear that they aren't physicians.
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2002
- Messages
- 1,057
- Reaction score
- 3
Offices that use PA's are required to have a framed notices in the waiting room explaining that PA's are being utilized, and that they are not physicians. PA's are required to wear name tags that state that they are physician assistants. Patients also have a responsibilty to read these labels and notices.
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2002
- Messages
- 520
- Reaction score
- 9
Oh for crap sake!
If you want to cause utter confusion, go ahead call yourself professor for all I care.
Serfes, you asked me to justify my reason, I gave you the conventional thinking and practice...it stands for JD's as well. When was the last time you called your Lawyer "Doctor"?
Give me a break eh? I never say "I am Dr. Wagner, your Emergency Medicine Physician", rather just "Dr. Wagner".
As for turning around when someone calls "Doctor", MWilding...do what you want...I think you probably knew what I was saying.
If you want to cause utter confusion, go ahead call yourself professor for all I care.
Serfes, you asked me to justify my reason, I gave you the conventional thinking and practice...it stands for JD's as well. When was the last time you called your Lawyer "Doctor"?
Give me a break eh? I never say "I am Dr. Wagner, your Emergency Medicine Physician", rather just "Dr. Wagner".
As for turning around when someone calls "Doctor", MWilding...do what you want...I think you probably knew what I was saying.
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2003
- Messages
- 20
- Reaction score
- 0
i'm not sure if it was the movie "Fletch" or what, but this whole post reminds me of a scene in this movie where all these docs got together and instead of the formal introductions, they all just nodded to each other and said "doctor...doctor...doctor...doctor...doctor..." it was pretty funny. =)
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2003
- Messages
- 50
- Reaction score
- 1
Calm down. I asked a simple question. If you don't want to answer it then don't respond. Easy enough.
I wasn't asking what the standard practice is. I was asking for a reason why certain doctorates shouldn't retain the title of "Dr." If you're saying it's because people automatically think of a physician when they hear doctor, then why doesn't the same apply to all non-physician doctorates?
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2004
- Messages
- 549
- Reaction score
- 0
The movie is called "Spies like us" and youre right its hilarious. I also like the part where they have to keep flipping through the book when attempting to preform an appendectomy.
Serfes,
All non-physician/clinical doctorates should not be called "Dr" in the inappropriate setting, unless of course its the patient then you would call the Dr. soandso out of respect, I would assume. I guess it comes down to judgement, but I can't beleive you dont see the inherent confusion when you just start calling everybody doctor.
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2002
- Messages
- 1,057
- Reaction score
- 3
I am with Dr. Wagner 100%. The bottom line is that the only people who routinely use the title Dr in and around medicine are physicians. My wife goes to an Endo that uses clinical pharmacists, PharmD's, and the one time they introduced themself as Dr. "soandso" was the last time they did it to my wife. They did not bother to say that they were a pharmacist, and that pissed me off. I honestly could probably get past the title Dr. for some of these people if they always used their real title along with it. Hello, I am Dr. "soandso", the clinical PHARMACIST. I can also swallow the Pods and the Optometrists using it in the clinical setting but I think they should have to explain themselves as well. Unless you are able to practice unrestricted medicine across all body systems, one should not be confusing patients by using the term Dr. The Pods and the OD's made it through the legislative BS to be called Dr. but lets not let it get out of control. If not we will be calling nurse EdD's Dr. in the clinical setting one day soon, or chiros, or hell, even hospital administrators with a PhD. And funny enough, my father who is a lawyer has this one judge he frequently goes before that requires each lawyer to call each other "Dr. soandso". How funny is that? And imagine how crowded the "reserved for Dr. " parking will get if this trend continues.
MJM
MJM
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2003
- Messages
- 111
- Reaction score
- 0
hey pac2doc
im a little biased here(first year pod student) and im definatly not trying to start a fight
but do you really feel that slighted by pods calling themselves doc
i mean we put in 4 years plus 2-3 for residency we have prescribing rights, and can perform surgeries without supervision
personally i plan on introducing myself to pts in the hospital as "hi i am doctor x, im a podiatrist" b/c its just seems like proper form for any doctor
id imagine most oral surgeons/ MDs/and DOs feel the same
however i am sure i wont always be that proper when im busy/lazy/tired whatever
in those cases id probably just introdce myself as dr.x and go about treating the pt...however...if the pt asked for advice on something outside of my scope i would definatly explain my training and get someone better suited for the job...
but then again im sure most specialists would do the same if asked about something outside there range of expertise...
so i guess i am just asking what makes us pods so much different in your eyes?
-j
im a little biased here(first year pod student) and im definatly not trying to start a fight
but do you really feel that slighted by pods calling themselves doc
i mean we put in 4 years plus 2-3 for residency we have prescribing rights, and can perform surgeries without supervision
personally i plan on introducing myself to pts in the hospital as "hi i am doctor x, im a podiatrist" b/c its just seems like proper form for any doctor
id imagine most oral surgeons/ MDs/and DOs feel the same
however i am sure i wont always be that proper when im busy/lazy/tired whatever
in those cases id probably just introdce myself as dr.x and go about treating the pt...however...if the pt asked for advice on something outside of my scope i would definatly explain my training and get someone better suited for the job...
but then again im sure most specialists would do the same if asked about something outside there range of expertise...
so i guess i am just asking what makes us pods so much different in your eyes?
-j
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2002
- Messages
- 1,057
- Reaction score
- 3
I am certainly not questioning the value of podiatrists nor the credentials that make them doctors. But you ask what makes them different in my eyes, and I will tell you. When I refer a patient to the endocrinologist, the orthopedist, the dermatologist, the or the cardiologist, I can rest assured knowing that they have all graduated from accredited schools that have to mirror basic the same curriculum. They all are required by virtue of their board passage to be able to treat anything and everything, although we know that most of them choose not to treat anything but their specialty. My definition of a "doctor" is someone who could theoretically break open the medical emergency kit on an airplane trip and provide life sustaining care to someone with asthma, seizures, anaphylaxis, an MI, and not just be able to treat from the tibial tuberosity down! I think Pods serve a great purpose, and I have my orthotics in my shoes as we speak. My great friend and former office partner was a Pod, and he was marvelous. But his limitations shined through often and these limitations were things I would expect any physician in any specialty to have a basic knowledge of. I guess what I am asking you now is why are Pods "special" enough to be grouped outside the other doctorate level allied healthcare providers like Opto's, Dentists, DPT's, PharmD's, etc. None of these providers go by the title physician....and because they did not attend medical school. The absolute only way that Pods will ever gain the respect as physicians that they probably deserve is to be absorbed into the "full scope" physician profession. But truth be told, if Pod schools overnight became medical schools, how many of the graduates would be willing to or desire to become foot and ankle specialists? My guess is that it would go from about 100% to 5% overnight. Pods serve their purpose, but they should not be called physicians. As long as they have a DPM somewhere on their nametage or labcoat, then I wouldn't care of they called themselves doctor X. Hell, DO's fought this same battle 30 years ago but DO's are unarguably full scope physicians now in all 50 states, and everyone knows their curriculum is full scope in addition to their residency. Oh, actually, I do have a quick solution to this problem. Allow Pod students to sit for the USMLE and then if they pass it is a mute point. This would be interesting to look at.
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2003
- Messages
- 111
- Reaction score
- 0
hey pac2doc
thanks for the reply
i would like to be clear that i never sought to group pods as a seperate catergory from dentists, in my eyes we have the same general scope of practice except of course one does mouths the other feet..as far as pharmd's, they are docs in my book too
as far as DPT's and OD's go...I realy cant group them in anywhere simply because I am not aware of their range of practice and what they are or are not allowed to do, or their schooling, in that regards my ignorance keeps me from commenting on them..
as far as pods who want to be mds...dude i just feel bad for those guys..but that really is a topic for another thread...i am not sure how they fit into this debate....b/c lets face it..there are plenty of do's and dds that wanted to be md's but arent...doesnt make them less of docs in my eyes
as far as our training goes...i dont know when your friend graduated pod school, but our training/residencies are being changed pretty drastically, as of right now we are all supposed to learn EM and IM in school and we rotate through EM and IM in our residencies to get the basics, which include things like dealing with MI's, and seizures...but of course we are not trained as well as mds/do in that regard...actually in NJ and a few other states, DPM's are licensed to give pts their "yearly checkup", same in NY(although the laws are a little diff in NY) but i imagine we know enough to save a life if we were the last option for someone..though i doubt any DPMs are gonna push an MD out of the way if someone starts convulsing on a plane
but acording to your def of what makes an md/do different...then any EMT or PA should be called a doctor...and a pathologist/ radiologist/infectious disease specialist, who hasnt been in the ER in 20 yrs shouldnt...because even though they were trained to perform all of the procedures you mentioned, they probably wouldnt feel comfortable doing so having not done one since they were residents...
im not saying a DPM isnt a different degree than an MD, or that I am going to be as well trained as an MD in areas outside of my scope....I am just saying that in the hospital..i feel everyone should identify themselves and their specialty..but since we are all gonna get lazy...we should just treat the pt as best as we can...and not worry about whose doctorate is more of a doctorate...
-j
thanks for the reply
i would like to be clear that i never sought to group pods as a seperate catergory from dentists, in my eyes we have the same general scope of practice except of course one does mouths the other feet..as far as pharmd's, they are docs in my book too
as far as DPT's and OD's go...I realy cant group them in anywhere simply because I am not aware of their range of practice and what they are or are not allowed to do, or their schooling, in that regards my ignorance keeps me from commenting on them..
as far as pods who want to be mds...dude i just feel bad for those guys..but that really is a topic for another thread...i am not sure how they fit into this debate....b/c lets face it..there are plenty of do's and dds that wanted to be md's but arent...doesnt make them less of docs in my eyes
as far as our training goes...i dont know when your friend graduated pod school, but our training/residencies are being changed pretty drastically, as of right now we are all supposed to learn EM and IM in school and we rotate through EM and IM in our residencies to get the basics, which include things like dealing with MI's, and seizures...but of course we are not trained as well as mds/do in that regard...actually in NJ and a few other states, DPM's are licensed to give pts their "yearly checkup", same in NY(although the laws are a little diff in NY) but i imagine we know enough to save a life if we were the last option for someone..though i doubt any DPMs are gonna push an MD out of the way if someone starts convulsing on a plane
but acording to your def of what makes an md/do different...then any EMT or PA should be called a doctor...and a pathologist/ radiologist/infectious disease specialist, who hasnt been in the ER in 20 yrs shouldnt...because even though they were trained to perform all of the procedures you mentioned, they probably wouldnt feel comfortable doing so having not done one since they were residents...
im not saying a DPM isnt a different degree than an MD, or that I am going to be as well trained as an MD in areas outside of my scope....I am just saying that in the hospital..i feel everyone should identify themselves and their specialty..but since we are all gonna get lazy...we should just treat the pt as best as we can...and not worry about whose doctorate is more of a doctorate...
-j
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2003
- Messages
- 102
- Reaction score
- 0
Maybe we should just abandon all the ego-stroking titles and just call ourselves by our names. That's what PA's tend to do. I like to be "Tim". Let our respect come out of our quality of service, not out of our academic titles.
I doubt this idea would ever catch on among "doctors" of any type. They work very hard to get the title, and many want to be reminded of it on a daily basis.
I doubt this idea would ever catch on among "doctors" of any type. They work very hard to get the title, and many want to be reminded of it on a daily basis.
What a silly thread. J, it doesnt matter what others on this forum think about your training as a pod, unless you went to pod school and graduated you dont know what a pods training entails.
You are a human being who is trained to help others. That in itself is admirable. You are a doctor in any setting and should be addressed as such as long as you are treating inside your scope of practice.
If any doc tells you they can treat any part of the body and wont refer you to a person who has expertise in that area, then if I were you I would hop, walk, limp, whatever it took to get away from that person.
This so called "full scope stuff ", PA is talking about is crap.
. J, it doesnt matter what others on this forum think about your training as a pod, unless you went to pod school and graduated you dont know what a pods training entails.You are a human being who is trained to help others. That in itself is admirable. You are a doctor in any setting and should be addressed as such as long as you are treating inside your scope of practice.
If any doc tells you they can treat any part of the body and wont refer you to a person who has expertise in that area, then if I were you I would hop, walk, limp, whatever it took to get away from that person.
This so called "full scope stuff ", PA is talking about is crap.
