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Discussion in 'Clinical Rotations' started by watermen, Apr 28, 2007.
So the rectal my podiatrist did on me doesnt count?
Here is ForbiddenComma's Official List of People Cool Enough to be Called Doctor:
And here is ForbiddenComma's Official List of People Too Wack to be Called Doctor:
I think they should sticky this list on every forum and in fact, make it into a pamphlet and distribute it at every university in the nation since 1) It is God's truth and 2) I wrote it, which refers to point #1.
ROFLMAO...Nice list, Comma.
well, yeah I mean what does each one do? If a podiatrist is a foot/ankle surgeon, and so is the foot/ankle orthopod, what goes to the podiatrist and what goes to the orthopedist?
I would think that would depend on who refers them, right? Some physicians will refer to a podiatrist they know for F&A problems and others will prefer an ortho surgeon. Many specialties have overlapping skills and procedures they perform. It is probably true that even most Foot & Ankle trained Orthopods don't do much feet but rather concentrate on ankles and other general orthopedics while Pods probably do more feet. However, with the exception of a few states in which Podiatrists can do ankle or above work, the cases are shared...often F&A call is shared.
I'll bet a gander at the Pods forum here will give more insight into any differences.
I'd like to propose amending the list to include George Clinton for his work as Dr. Funkenstein
i second the proposal on the floor.
Don't worry...he was just checking your extensor hallucis really really longus!
Yes! Someone holding a DPM degree is considered a physician (in the U.S. for sure, unsure about international standards), having the ability to do anything from prescribing medications to performing surgery. They have earned the right to a "Dr." title. (Similar to DDS/DDM degrees, you also refer to dentists, etc. as "Doctor TKTKTK.")
To be honest with you, when I am on clinical rotation, I called everyone "Dr". For God sake, unless the batch say "RN" on it, I called everyone Dr (even NP and RT too). Everyone seem happy and thus my rotation went smoothly.
Ya um... they definitely aren’t a physician. Just like dentists aren’t. Their schooling is different and their scope is finite (just like dentists). A physician is someone who has passed the required schooling in order to legally practice medicine and surgery, and all that it encompasses. This means that any MD and DO can perform brain surgery if they so choose. Their license allows this, now getting credentialed somehwhere is a different story. The same can be applied to heart surgery/ GI scoping/ etc. The same cannot be said for podiatrists. They are restricted to one region of the body, while, as above, physicians have no restrictions within any part of medicine. Hence, podiatrists cannot apply to residency in internal medicine or general surgery, etc.
While, me, on the other hand, *could* reapply to any residency I wanted at any point. Because I will have earned the degree which allows this.
Podiatrists are legally defined as physicians in the US. Just like MD/DOs, they can take patients' histories, perform physical examinations, prescribe medication up to schedule II, perform surgeries, and admit them to hospitals. Podiatrists have to option to become board certified in foot surgery and in reconstructive rearfoot/ankle surgery upon residency graduation. Some case examples include, but are not limited to: pilon fractures, ruptured Achilles repair, arthrodeses, total ankle replacements, etc. Education is similar; students take the same basic sciences as MD/DO students along with specific biomechanics, lower extremity anatomy, and pod med classes. Their APMLE boards are divided into three parts, just like the USMLE and the COMLEX. Upon graduation, students enter a mandatory 3-4 year surgical residency and have the option of fellowship afterwards. In their first year, they participate in medicine and surgery rotations like IM, rads, plastics, gen surg, etc. The second and third years are more focused on the foot and ankle and many F/A ortho attendings train them. Without a doubt, podiatrists are physicians that are just specialized upon entering professional school.
You bumped an 11 year old thread.
You are not a student yet. You have not started yet. You will know the limitations our licenses come with when you start residency and practice.
But yes, we are still referred to as "Doctor". I will not argue with you on that.
No, we do not have an unrestricted plenary license like you guys have. So you are correct in that regard.
While our schooling is different, we can and do still practice medicine and surgery, but only on the foot.
Take it easy. You are replying to a recently accepted pre-pod who is excited about her schooling.
No need for chest beating. Be kind.
Yes, all of the above is correct. However like I mentioned earlier, we do not have an unrestricted plenary license as NecFasc 92 (necrotizing fasciitis? Clever) alluded to.
So in regards to that statement, they are correct. We are specialized from the beginning.
Podiatric medical students take the same academic coursework as their allopathic and osteopathic counterparts. Many of our schools integrate MD or DO students in the same classroom for the first two years (e.g. RFUMS' Chicago Medical School and Scholl S. of Podiatric Med), until they part ways to their respective clinical courseworks.
In any specialty, someone who specializes in heart surgery, per se, cannot perform brain surgery. To refer to what you were saying, they, too, are restricted to one region of the body -- it's just that they become restricted starting in residency - while we in year no. 3 of medical school.
The only difference between podiatric medicine and MD/DO training is that instead of rotating through different specialties the last two years of our medical school training to figure out where we would like to specialize for residency, we know exactly that we will be specializing in lower extremity surgery. (And to be clear, we still rotate among other specialties -- radiology, neurology, vascular thoracic -- these years and throughout residency to become well-rounded physicians.)
So if you think of it that way -- the only real difference (in terms of training) between DPM and MD/DO training is the last two years of medical school.
They have a clinical doctorate and perform surgery, obviously you refer to them as doctor
True, but I also know that as the field becomes increasingly popular among student career options and relevant with the rise of diabetic populations, the scope of licensure can increase with.
The licenses themselves are different. We do not have an unrestricted plenary license. Period.
We are currently working towards that, hence the push for podiatric medical students to prepare for and take a modified USMLE.
Telling me the scope of license can increase solely due to an aging diabetic population and the popularity of this field is premature.
Applications to podiatric medical schools were down the last 3 years. Go look at the numbers. Popularity is not a driving factor. An aging diabetic population has been used to entice prospective students from multiple programs including optometry and PA. That issue is not exclusive to podiatry.
Getting schools to agree on what our scope is, if surgery should be mandatory, getting all 9 schools to restructure their curriculum to cover all topics MD/DO programs do, re-examining board learning outcomes and modifying them to cover a knowledge base that will get us an unrestricted license, pushing APMA and ACFAS to work together instead of the elitism that comes with surgical versus none-surgical foot medicine that you choose to practice after residency. These are the things you should be examining and presenting to naysayers who try to put our profession down. Not anecdotes on how current healthcare trends should increase our scope.
I have no problem with you pushing the parity of this field. We need people who can speak accurately and with a level head for our profession. But do not go in chest beating without knowing the specific technical details and acknowledging what we do better and what we lack. It will only reinforce the idea that podiatric medicine is amateur and niche.
Our education is extremely similar MD/DO curriculums in terms of depth and volume. Even then, we still have a ways to go to get on the same level licensing wise.
Gain the respect of your MD/DO colleagues with your knowledge, accurate facts, and personality.
Just out of curiosity and not at all intending to be rude, what exactly would be the purpose of this? At that point why not just become an MD/DO student/school?
No offense taken!
Bluntly speaking, I did not have competitive grades for MD/DO. I was also already 1 year into non-SMP Masters.
Family and relatives had the mindset of "MD or GTFO".
I was considering Optometry, PA, and podiatry.
Optometrists are very well trained but the real world pathology they see are few and far in-between. I wanted something more hands on.
PA value wise is amazing. Short amount of school, amazing pay, the chance to jump departments if you desire. But I wanted something that would push my limits in terms of career ceiling and skill set.
Podiatric medicine fit. Wound care, limb salvage, surgery if viable. Very procedure based.
Applied and just wanted to see how far I could get. I'm liking it a lot more than I thought I would.
Just realized you were referring to the USMLE push.
The point is parity.
We do not want to take care of your patients if it does not pertain to the foot and ankle.
However there is some discrepancy in insurance. Even if we perform the exact same type of surgeries that F&A orthos do, some insurances do not reimburse at the same rate.
The objective of pushing for a plenary license isn't to take on more work or do things we are not trained to do. It is to get equal pay insurance wise for doing the same exact procedures.
There are a lot of students at DPM programs who had all other "physician" doors closed off to them, even after reinvention and MCAT retakes. Were it not for the Podiatry route, the world would have been short that many good doctors. However, as long as there are separate training systems, other doctors will continue to look down on the profession, hence the push for USMLE and maybe one day in bubblegum rainbow happy land, MD residencies for foot and ankle that DPMs can apply for, similar to how DOs could do MD residencies.
Pods are doing a lot of good work out there, and saving a lot of limbs and by extension, lives. It is sad to see it get a bad rap on SDN by some practicing physicians.
Nope. You are incorrect. As a pediatrician I could LEGALLY do brain surgery if I so choose. It would just be impossible to find any hospital/ center/ etc crazy enough to credential me. But legally I could. Because as a physician I will have earned that legal responsibility. You, on the other hand, have not. Sure, you’re a doctor because you’ve earned a doctorate but you aren’t a physician, kid.
First, uncalled for. Second, sure you could choose to go through a different residency program to practice a different field w/ an MD/DO degree; however, you have to go through residency again. Unless trained, a solely-pediatrics physician cannot simply perform brain surgery even if it is a pediatrics patients. You could in case of an emergency, but that's a dif situation..
Lastly, not that I want to get into legalities or argue further, but yes, individuals holding a DPM degree are considered 'physicians' by U.S. law -- Social Security Act—Sec. 1861(r), Regulations No. 5—405.231(a),(b). They are physicians as long as they do what their license allows, which is anything pertaining to the medicine and surgery of the lower extremity.
No, you don't understand. Yes, legally I will be able to. Any MD/DO can LEGALLY perform brain surgery on anyone at any time, but you just won't find a place to get credentialed. This has nothing to do with residency, the degree allows the legal capacity to do this.
Legally, it depends on the state on weather DPMs are “physicians” as a term. In many states, they are.
Chiropractors are also physicians in some states, so the term doesn’t really have as much weight to it like it once did.
Moving the goal post much? Look, pods are dope. It’s a sweet gig but you guys aren’t physicians. You are restricted to the X region. Which is cool, but that doesn’t define a physician.
Either way I never discussed what legally defines a physician. I used legal restrictions to add credence to what constitutes a physician. Not the same thing.
What is your reasoning, though? Physicians are defined as any "professional who practices medicine, which is concerned with promoting, maintaining, or restoring health through the study, diagnosis, and treatment of disease, injury, and other physical and mental impairments" -- and in that sense, podiatrists are physicians. Both legally and semantically.
What exactly is your definition of a Physician?
Are DOs "real physicians"?
The same curriculum? If so, Pods and DOs at 3 schools take the same classes the first two years. DO curriculum is diffrent than MD.
Is it the same Boards? DPMs dont take the same boards as MDs, but not all DOs take the same boards.
Is it doing a MD residency? DPMs dont do MD residencies, but not all DOs practicing have done to MD residencies.
You should definitely call DPMs Dr. They earned the title, they went through residency, they operate, they independently prescribe. They are not midlevels and their degree is relevant in clinical settings. Same goes for dentists and optometrists for sure.
Pods aren’t destroying medicine. The rise of poorly trained and overly confident midlevels are.
Idk if I would refer to a DNP as Dr because the DNP does not grant them privileges higher than a NP and NPs are NOT physicians in any clinical settings. They are nurses. I don’t mean to say this despairingly, it’s simply fact. Secure, good and confident NPs don’t pretend to be doctors and they are an invaluable part of a team.
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Hell yes I call them doctor.
But I refer to every NP as "midlevel" or "nurse" or their first name and will never ever use the word "physician".
Dude you're an MS3 at a DO school if I remember correctly. You're not a physician either.
Did I miss a section of this thread where DNP’s were calling themselves physicians?
Nah, but it won’t be long until they get laws passed to do so. The nursing lobby is huge.
You cannot be more wrong. A pediatrician cannot do brain surgery unless he is a neurosurgeon. There is a reason that hospital won't give you credential for brain surgery because you do not have the training to do so. Just like a dentist cannot do LeFort surgery (an oral surgeon on the other hand can), or pharmacist cannot administer general anesthesia even though they know a lot about drugs. If you do not believe me, you can always open your own clinic and credential yourself to do brain surgery to see what will happen (having denied a credential is not the reason why you cannot do brain surgery, it mainly because you do not have the capacity to perform surgery, that's why). FYI, a podiatrist can have credential at hospital to do lower extremity surgery while you cannot.