Do you know anyone that failed out of med school?

[AnkleGuy]

Do you know anyone that failed out of medical school? Do you know why they failed out? I'm struggling and I wonder why other students fail out.

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[NeurologyHopeful2018]

Do you know anyone that failed out of medical school? Do you know why they failed out? I'm struggling and I wonder why other students fail out.

Are you M1? I would be worried if you aren't struggling right now.

 

[deleted480308]

Do you know anyone that failed out of medical school? Do you know why they failed out? I'm struggling and I wonder why other students fail out.

My class lost more than 10 although a few came back to repeat a year

One quit to be a housewife, one for financial reasons, at least one for health reasons, 5-6 for various failing of courses in preclinical year, the boards got a few of us

 

[AnkleGuy]

My class lost more than 10 although a few came back to repeat a year

One quit to be a housewife, one for financial reasons, at least one for health reasons, 5-6 for various failing of courses in preclinical year, the boards got a few of us

So freaking cut throat man. For how hard it takes to get in there should be extensive programs to keep them in the program.... it's so unfair especially with that debt they have to pay off.

 

[masaraksh]

So freaking cut throat man. For how hard it takes to get in there should be extensive programs to keep them in the program.... it's so unfair especially with that debt they have to pay off.

I think the opposite. I think schools budget (instead of remodeling classrooms and spending money on useless things) and students tuition should go towards a small insurance policy which refunds say ~75% of tuition dollars if a student is to fail out/be asked to leave for academic reasons.

IMO, once you're in, med schools try really hard to keep you in. Actually, its pretty hard to fail out, and too many people who shouldn't be (imo) still get pushed through the system.

I think having such an insurance fund and failing/removing students that are clearly not cutting it is the much better path.

 

[AnkleGuy]

I think the opposite. I think schools budget (instead of remodeling classrooms and spending money on useless things) and students tuition should go towards a small insurance policy which refunds say ~75% of tuition dollars if a student is to fail out/be asked to leave for academic reasons.

IMO, once you're in, med schools try really hard to keep you in. Actually, its pretty hard to fail out, and too many people who shouldn't be (imo) still get pushed through the system.

I think having such an insurance fund and failing/removing students that are clearly not cutting it is the much better path.

That insurance fund sounds like a great idea. Some people who are not qualified to be doctors keep going because they don't want to be in tremendous debt without anything to show for it.

 

[Goro]

Do you know anyone that failed out of medical school? Do you know why they failed out? I'm struggling and I wonder why other students fail out.

My school loses 2-6 people /year, the vast majority of these in Fall of OMSI. Of these, > 50% take a LOA.

Of these, mental health issues are the #1 cause.
I'd say poor coping skills to life events would be #2.
#3: didn't want to be here in the first place.
#4: all the other uncommon causes...professionalism issues, inability to "get" medical school; never figured out good time mgt skills, failing COMLEX.

EDIT: it's very common for M1s/OMS1s to struggle for the first third of the Fall semester. People are learning the heard way that what worked in UG doesn't work in med school, and/or are adjusting to drinking from the firehose (while running after the fire engine).

A little light reading:
Goro's Guide to Success in Medical School (2017 edition)

 

[NeurologyHopeful2018]

My school loses 2-6 people /year, the vast majority of these in Fall of OMSI. Of these, > 50% take a LOA.

Of these, mental health issues are the #1 cause.
I'd say poor coping skills to life events would be #2.
#3: didn't want to be here in the first place.
#4: all the other uncommon causes...professionalism issues, inability to "get" medical school; never figured out good time mgt skills.

This is at UCSF - the top med school in the country with arguably the most brilliant students in the world?

 

[Goro]

This is at UCSF - the top med school in the country with arguably the most brilliant students in the world?

When we faculty go to medical education conferences, the stories about weak students we hear are all the same...from JAB to Harvard, Albany to Yale, Western to BU or U WA to Nova, depressingly the same.

Just as an example, do not underestimate the damage that Tiger Parents (who come in all sizes, colors and cultures) can do to their kids.

As for UCSF being the top school, if you ask five people for opinions, you're going to get six different answers!

 

[AnkleGuy]

When we faculty go to medical education conferences, the stories about weak students we hear are all the same...from JAB to Harvard, Albany to Yale, Western to BU or U WA to Nova, depressingly the same.

Just as an example, do not underestimate the damage that Tiger Parents (who come in all sizes, colors and cultures) can do to their kids.

As for UCSF being the top school, if you ask five people for opinions, you're going to get six different answers!

You guys talk about failing students at conferences?

 

[Planes2Doc]

My school loses 2-6 people /year, the vast majority of these in Fall of OMSI. Of these, > 50% take a LOA.

Of these, mental health issues are the #1 cause.
I'd say poor coping skills to life events would be #2.
#3: didn't want to be here in the first place.
#4: all the other uncommon causes...professionalism issues, inability to "get" medical school; never figured out good time mgt skills.

EDIT: it's very common for M1s/OMS1s to struggle for the first third of the Fall semester. People are learning the heard way that what worked in UG doesn't work in med school, and/or are adjusting to drinking from the firehose (while running after the fire engine).

A little light reading:
Goro's Guide to Success in Medical School (2017 edition)

Spot on! This was my class in a nut shell.

 

[Goro]

You guys talk about failing students at conferences?

Yes. We do posters, seminars and publish papers on the them.

Here's a few:
Predicting success and failure of medical students at risk for dismissal. - PubMed - NCBI
http://www.med-ed-online.org/pdf/L0000029.pdf
When are students most at risk of encountering academic difficulty? A study of the 1992 matriculants to U.S. medical schools. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[AnkleGuy]

Yes. We do posters, seminars and publish papers on the them.

Here's a few:
Predicting success and failure of medical students at risk for dismissal. - PubMed - NCBI
http://www.med-ed-online.org/pdf/L0000029.pdf
When are students most at risk of encountering academic difficulty? A study of the 1992 matriculants to U.S. medical schools. - PubMed - NCBI

Do you guys ever come to the conclusion that some are just not smart enough or able to memorize quick enough? Seems like all of these reasons are because of psychological issues

 

[Styrene]

Do you know anyone that failed out of medical school? Do you know why they failed out? I'm struggling and I wonder why other students fail out.

None from my school so far (MS2 since a few weeks ago). There are so many chances academically, at least at my school. One person left a few months through first year, but he apparently said he just didn't like it and mistakenly decided on med school when debating med school vs. hard science MS/PhD. He's now doing an MS (I think).

 

[psychMDhopefully]

Yes. We do posters, seminars and publish papers on the them.

Here's a few:
Predicting success and failure of medical students at risk for dismissal. - PubMed - NCBI
http://www.med-ed-online.org/pdf/L0000029.pdf
When are students most at risk of encountering academic difficulty? A study of the 1992 matriculants to U.S. medical schools. - PubMed - NCBI

Didnt read any of the articles, biggest predictor of success in medical school is probably parent income level, parent education level, people who have parents that can afford to put them in elite education from kindergarten through college are usually the ones getting AOA.

 

[Goro]

Do you guys ever come to the conclusion that some are just not smart enough or able to memorize quick enough? Seems like all of these reasons are because of psychological issues

I have had very, very few students who, as I mentioned above, didn't get medical school. One of my worst students had to repeat not one, but two years! He's an anesthesiologist now; probably killing patients somewhere in the Northwest,.

Didnt read any of the articles, biggest predictor of success in medical school is probably parent income level, parent education level, people who have parents that can afford to put them in elite education from kindergarten through college are usually the ones getting AOA.

I think what you refer to, in truth, leads to success in getting into med school. But the biggest predictors of success are MCAT (weakly), pre-clinical GPA and use of a variety of reference resources.

 

[precisiongraphic]

I have had very, very few students who, as I mentioned above, didn't get medical school. One of my worst students had to repeat not one, but two years! He's an anesthesiologist now; probably killing patients somewhere in the Northwest,.

Up here in Seattle, this is not very comforting...thanks Goro!

 

[Goro]

Up here in Seattle, this is not very comforting...thanks Goro!

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

[Stagg737]

So freaking cut throat man. For how hard it takes to get in there should be extensive programs to keep them in the program.... it's so unfair especially with that debt they have to pay off.

I think my school lost around 20 people from the initial white coat ceremony (class size started at 275). 3-4 dropped in the first week or two. 2-4 failed out. Lost 6 to fellowships (number of fellowship positions was increased, so they join the class behind us) and anther 5-6 had to repeat a year (mostly for academic issues, 1 for cheating). 3-4 left sometime during first 2 years by choice (that I know: 1 for health reasons, 1 realized they hated it, 1 reapplied to MD schools during 1st year and got in). As far as I know we didn't lose anyone due to boards or during 3rd/4th year but I could be wrong. Idk about other schools, but mind tries pretty hard to keep students here while still holding us to acceptable standards.

Do you guys ever come to the conclusion that some are just not smart enough or able to memorize quick enough? Seems like all of these reasons are because of psychological issues

I had 2 people in my class who legitimately busted their butts and still failed out. One failed out first semester (failed 2 classes and several practicals) and one failed second semester. I really don't know how the latter even got into out school as her stats were far below our average or even the minimum our school supposedly took.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

I think my school lost around 20 people from the initial white coat ceremony (class size started at 275). 3-4 dropped in the first week or two. 2-4 failed out. Lost 6 to fellowships (number of fellowship positions was increased, so they join the class behind us) and anther 5-6 had to repeat a year (mostly for academic issues, 1 for cheating). 3-4 left sometime during first 2 years by choice (that I know: 1 for health reasons, 1 realized they hated it, 1 reapplied to MD schools during 1st year and got in). As far as I know we didn't lose anyone due to boards or during 3rd/4th year but I could be wrong. Idk about other schools, but mind tries pretty hard to keep students here while still holding us to acceptable standards.



I had 2 people in my class who legitimately busted their butts and still failed out. One failed out first semester (failed 2 classes and several practicals) and one failed second semester. I really don't know how the latter even got into out school as her stats were far below our average or even the minimum our school supposedly took.

Someone was allowed to repeat a year for academic dishonesty?

 

[flightnurse2MD]

Someone was allowed to repeat a year for academic dishonesty?

That's crazy! Should not be allowed to IMO. If they cheated in medical school- likely they have cheated all throughout their academic career up until that point. Don't want that kid taking care of someone's grandma....

 

[AnkleGuy]

I had 2 people in my class who legitimately busted their butts and still failed out. One failed out first semester (failed 2 classes and several practicals) and one failed second semester. I really don't know how the latter even got into out school as her stats were far below our average or even the minimum our school supposedly took.

Yeah this is my concern. I didn't have the greatest GPA coming in... but I guess that's why med schools require high GPA's. You can't just be a hard worker but you also have to have the intellect/IQ. Sad but true.

 

[AnkleGuy]

That's crazy! Should not be allowed to IMO. If they cheated in medical school- likely they have cheated all throughout their academic career up until that point. Don't want that kid taking care of someone's grandma....

I hear cheating is pretty rampant in med school.

 

[hamstergang]

Do you know anyone that failed out of medical school? Do you know why they failed out? I'm struggling and I wonder why other students fail out.

It seems odd to me that you would be focusing on why other students fail out instead of focusing on what you can do to improve yourself academically. Do you have a good sense of why you're struggling? Have you met with anyone at the school to address this?

 

[pupsnacks]

.

 

[Stagg737]

Someone was allowed to repeat a year for academic dishonesty?

That's crazy! Should not be allowed to IMO. If they cheated in medical school- likely they have cheated all throughout their academic career up until that point. Don't want that kid taking care of someone's grandma....

From what I heard yea, they had a couple things written down on their arm/a cheat sheet during the OMM final or something like that. They were in good academic standing other than I believe one previous failure (also in OMM I believe, but not sure). They were worried about not moving on to clinicals because of failing OMM (again I believe), which is ridiculous. Idk all the details, but I do know that there was 1 person in our class supposedly allowed to repeat second year instead of being dismissed at the end of second year.

 

[Goro]

I liked those articles, but it's saddening how the trend noted includes women, being older, and overall low GPA, as I may fit into these categories. The second article was most interesting. Do you have any more recent articles or ones like the second?

If you Pubmed those articles I cited, you'll see related articles pop up as well. There's an interesting series done by a group in Iran on thier own students.

 

[Osteoth]

My class lost more than 10 although a few came back to repeat a year

One quit to be a housewife, one for financial reasons, at least one for health reasons, 5-6 for various failing of courses in preclinical year, the boards got a few of us

Living the good life...

I have had very, very few students who, as I mentioned above, didn't get medical school. One of my worst students had to repeat not one, but two years! He's an anesthesiologist now; probably killing patients somewhere in the Northwest,.

Oof, harsh.

I think my school lost around 20 people from the initial white coat ceremony (class size started at 275). 3-4 dropped in the first week or two. 2-4 failed out. Lost 6 to fellowships (number of fellowship positions was increased, so they join the class behind us) and anther 5-6 had to repeat a year (mostly for academic issues, 1 for cheating). 3-4 left sometime during first 2 years by choice (that I know: 1 for health reasons, 1 realized they hated it, 1 reapplied to MD schools during 1st year and got in). As far as I know we didn't lose anyone due to boards or during 3rd/4th year but I could be wrong. Idk about other schools, but mind tries pretty hard to keep students here while still holding us to acceptable standards.



I had 2 people in my class who legitimately busted their butts and still failed out. One failed out first semester (failed 2 classes and several practicals) and one failed second semester. I really don't know how the latter even got into out school as her stats were far below our average or even the minimum our school supposedly took.

Is her last name on a donor plaque somewhere in the school?

 

[libertyyne]

I liked those articles, but it's saddening how the trend noted includes women, being older, and overall low GPA, as I may fit into these categories. The second article was most interesting. Do you have any more recent articles or ones like the second?

I wouldnt pay much attention to that one article. It was an opinion essay written by a pyschologist. The last article is fairly old. Medical schools seem to be admitting non trads at a higher rate than previously considering the age of matriculants has inched upward.

I would say if you have the mcat and get admitted to medical school you have the chops of making it, the only real question is if you can maintain focus on the task at hand , and dont have any external life /personal circumstances that interfere.

https://www.aamc.org/download/410078/data/mcatacademicmedicinearticles.pdf
UP means graduating and not having academic difficulty within 5 years.

 

[aformerstudent]

Basic sciences by itself is not hard. It's the testing that is hard because you are dealing with third and fourth order questions which is a big difference from the "name this bone" in undergrad. I don't know anybody who walked into an exam feeling 100% confident that they knew everything about everything.

Being that medical school moves so fast, those who do well are those who adapt and figure out how to test well on the material.

I went to a Caribbean program so the attrition was much higher because people are not screened like in the US. But even there, nobody was stupid. If you can teach a monkey to test well, the monkey can become a doctor too.

 

[Stagg737]

Is her last name on a donor plaque somewhere in the school?

Nope. Both her parents were doctors, but not really from the area and from what I understand they had nothing to do with her application. I'm pretty sure she came off the waitlist late, but even so I'm not sure how she got in with her stats. Really nice girl, but just not up to snuff when it came down to it I guess.

 

[Crayola227]

yeah most I know of quit in the first 1/3 of MS1

just couldn't hack it, medicine wasn't what they expected, body functions ewww I think most of the time

 

[Dingahlingahling]

Do you know anyone that failed out of medical school? Do you know why they failed out? I'm struggling and I wonder why other students fail out.

Yeah. Me. I failed out in October although technically I am actually on leave until next year to try again. It was devastating, it is devastating. What is worse is I don’t know why I couldn’t pass. I mean I was at the top of my class in college. When I took organic I got the highest grade out of 500+ students. I couldn’t figure out the system in med school. I am ashamed—when I got into medical school, it was because professors, doctors, mentors—they believed in me, they had no doubts in me—and I have let all of us down. Utter defeat. I wish I could tell you why, but hopefully I’ll figure it out this year. Luckily this has been so soul crushing and I am so depressed I am seeing a shrinks and therapists, and hopefully they’ll help me figure it out. Hah

All I know is these are the darkest days I’ve ever seen, and that’s coming from a ex 18 yo heroin addict. Good thing I have those memories to know these days will pass, and I can’t give up because I know I can do this med school thing one day.

Blah, sorrynotsorry for emotional word vomit attack—it’s the best I could do. Hope you have managed to hang in there and stay afloat—maybe even swim a little!! 😀

 

[psychMDhopefully]

Yeah. Me. I failed out in October although technically I am actually on leave until next year to try again. It was devastating, it is devastating. What is worse is I don’t know why I couldn’t pass. I mean I was at the top of my class in college. When I took organic I got the highest grade out of 500+ students. I couldn’t figure out the system in med school. I am ashamed—when I got into medical school, it was because professors, doctors, mentors—they believed in me, they had no doubts in me—and I have let all of us down. Utter defeat. I wish I could tell you why, but hopefully I’ll figure it out this year. Luckily this has been so soul crushing and I am so depressed I am seeing a shrinks and therapists, and hopefully they’ll help me figure it out. Hah

All I know is these are the darkest days I’ve ever seen, and that’s coming from a ex 18 yo heroin addict. Good thing I have those memories to know these days will pass, and I can’t give up because I know I can do this med school thing one day.

Blah, sorrynotsorry for emotional word vomit attack—it’s the best I could do. Hope you have managed to hang in there and stay afloat—maybe even swim a little!! 😀

I feel your pain, I'm probably going to be dismissed, I can't seem to pass Step 1 no matter how much I study. I got this from another thread but here you go.


Peach Newport said: ↑
a few random, unrelated questions.

1) Lets day you took a reasonably intelligent person who had never set foot in a med school. You give him a copy of first aid, an infinite amount of time, and you have him take step 1 open-book with no time limit. How does he do?

.


As someone who has failed step 1 twice, med students have very biased unrealistic views on a lot of stuff. The first being you can take any guy off the street give him FA and time to study and he can pass Step 1 I had a decent MCAT, never failed a single class in the first 2 years, and I just can’t get past this test. There is just way too much ****ing stuff to remember. Med students act as if its normal to be able to memorize everything in an 800 page book and a 2500 question Q bank, no that **** is not normal. No matter how many times I go over this **** I just can’t retain it and that’s probably genetic. A lot of med students don’t have problems with step 1 and assume because they didn’t that anybody could do it. Thats like saying anybody could be a running back in the NFL if they are willing to work hard enough.

 

[Dingahlingahling]

When we faculty go to medical education conferences, the stories about weak students we hear are all the same...from JAB to Harvard, Albany to Yale, Western to BU or U WA to Nova, depressingly the same.

Just as an example, do not underestimate the damage that Tiger Parents (who come in all sizes, colors and cultures) can do to their kids.

As for UCSF being the top school, if you ask five people for opinions, you're going to get six different answers!

Doing my best not to take “weak students” personally. But disappointed in that term—certainly hope it isn’t the MD street term being used to describe students like myself and those others that “couldn’t hack it;” though perhaps, I need to hear these things, such that I am unable to forget that continued growth and greater strength (in every way possible) is the paramount necessity in my life until next fall, even when the depression fades and my ego recovers. So thank you I guess.

 

[Dingahlingahling]

I feel your pain, I'm probably going to be dismissed, I can't seem to pass Step 1 no matter how much I study. I got this from another thread but here you go.


Peach Newport said: ↑
a few random, unrelated questions.

1) Lets day you took a reasonably intelligent person who had never set foot in a med school. You give him a copy of first aid, an infinite amount of time, and you have him take step 1 open-book with no time limit. How does he do?

.


As someone who has failed step 1 twice, med students have very biased unrealistic views on a lot of stuff. The first being you can take any guy off the street give him FA and time to study and he can pass Step 1, I had a decent MCAT, never failed a single class in the first 2 years, and I just can’t get past this test. There is just way too much ****ing stuff to remember. Med students act as if its normal to be able to memorize everything in an 800 page book and a 2500 question bank, no that **** is not normal. No matter how many times I go over this **** I just can’t retain it and that’s probably genetic. A lot of med students don’t have problems with step 1 and assume because they didn’t they anybody could do it. Thats like saying anybody could be a running back in the NFL if they are willing to work hard enough.

Just tried to PM you but I wasn’t allowed? Am I not allowed to start conversation if I just made account??

 

[psychMDhopefully]

Just tried to PM you but I wasn’t allowed? Am I not allowed to start conversation if I just made account??

Try to PM me now, for whatever reason I had all my stuff private.

 

[Goro]

Doing my best not to take “weak students” personally. But disappointed in that term—certainly hope it isn’t the MD street term being used to describe students like myself and those others that “couldn’t hack it;” though perhaps, I need to hear these things, such that I am unable to forget that continued growth and greater strength (in every way possible) is the paramount necessity in my life until next fall, even when the depression fades and my ego recovers. So thank you I guess.

It's just a descriptor, not a pejorative. I'll spare you the pejorative we use at our school.

It will be beneficial to develop a thicker skin to survive medical education.

As I mentioned earlier, very, very few students "can't hack medical school"; rather it's other issues that prevent them from being successful.

 

[SIGINT]

One of my good friends failed out. It was a surprise since she was a strong student before medical school. Sometimes its hard to predict who can deal with the faster pace of medical school.

 

[Dingahlingahling]

One of my good friends failed out. It was a surprise since she was a strong student before medical school. Sometimes its hard to predict who can deal with the faster pace of medical school.

I know I can deal. But I imagine I lack appropriate strategy for the pacing. I’m planning to get with the academic counseling center next summer before semester starts. Gotta fight the good fight. I am sorry about your good friend, I hope she has been able walk forward and take pieces from the loss to build something better.

 

[sammiesings]

I know I can deal. But I imagine I lack appropriate strategy for the pacing. I’m planning to get with the academic counseling center next summer before semester starts. Gotta fight the good fight. I am sorry about your good friend, I hope she has been able walk forward and take pieces from the loss to build something better.

Hey there! Don't be so hard on yourself. Maybe I misunderstood but it sounds like you made the choice to take an loa and start over next year. Even if you didn't, know that in ten months time a lot can change. Focus on your mental health and all else will fall in place

 

[IlDestriero]

I feel your pain, I'm probably going to be dismissed, I can't seem to pass Step 1 no matter how much I study. I got this from another thread but here you go.


Peach Newport said: ↑
a few random, unrelated questions.

1) Lets day you took a reasonably intelligent person who had never set foot in a med school. You give him a copy of first aid, an infinite amount of time, and you have him take step 1 open-book with no time limit. How does he do?

.


As someone who has failed step 1 twice, med students have very biased unrealistic views on a lot of stuff. The first being you can take any guy off the street give him FA and time to study and he can pass Step 1, I had a decent MCAT, never failed a single class in the first 2 years, and I just can’t get past this test. There is just way too much ****ing stuff to remember. Med students act as if its normal to be able to memorize everything in an 800 page book and a 2500 question bank, no that **** is not normal. No matter how many times I go over this **** I just can’t retain it and that’s probably genetic. A lot of med students don’t have problems with step 1 and assume because they didn’t they anybody could do it. Thats like saying anybody could be a running back in the NFL if they are willing to work hard enough.

A corollary to the Dunning–Kruger effect is that persons of high ability tend to underestimate their relative competence and erroneously presume that tasks that are easy for them to perform are also easy for other people to perform.


--
Il Destriero

 

[sammiesings]

It's just a descriptor, not a pejorative. I'll spare you the pejorative we use at our school.

It will be beneficial to develop a thicker skin to survive medical education.

As I mentioned earlier, very, very few students "can't hack medical school"; rather it's other issues that prevent them from being successful.

You use a pejorative to refer to students doing poorly? Seems kinda harsh considering all students have a hard time with the initial adjustment. I imagine assigning that stigma in your mind about a student who struggles in first block or something similar would be long lasting and unjustly punish a student even if they turn it around and excell afterwards.

 

[Goro]

You use a pejorative to refer to students doing poorly? Seems kinda harsh considering all students have a hard time with the initial adjustment. I imagine assigning that stigma in your mind about a student who struggles in first block or something similar would be long lasting and unjustly punish a student even if they turn it around and excell afterwards.

We don't use it until well into the second semester.

And we're not vindictive just because someone is doing poorly. Do not confuse the use of a word with an action.

News flash: doctors also have pejoratives for patients they don't like.

 

[Vyzzle]

Basic sciences by itself is not hard. It's the testing that is hard because you are dealing with third and fourth order questions which is a big difference from the "name this bone" in undergrad. I don't know anybody who walked into an exam feeling 100% confident that they knew everything about everything.

Being that medical school moves so fast, those who do well are those who adapt and figure out how to test well on the material.

I went to a Caribbean program so the attrition was much higher because people are not screened like in the US. But even there, nobody was stupid. If you can teach a monkey to test well, the monkey can become a doctor too.

I'd have to disagree on question difficulty. At least at my undergrad the UDV Bio exams would ask far more difficult question than my M1 exams have asked so far. The key difference is volume, and a lot of people got through undergrad by brute force - having trouble? Study harder/longer. That doesn't work well at high volume. People have to begin studying smarter and more efficiently, and some people honestly don't really catch on to that. I've seen classmates struggle with one exam but continue to use the same methods of studying (but "longer") for the following exam and then are unhappy with the results, and burned-out on top of that. I would imagine this resulting burn-out by not adopting quick enough would probably result in most of the drop-outs and fail-outs.

Also "testing well" in the context of medical school exam questions typically means having good problem solving skills and utilizing the information you have learned. Quite important for medicine!

 

[sammiesings]

We don't use it until well into the second semester.

And we're not vindictive just because someone is doing poorly. Do not confuse the use of a word with an action.

News flash: doctors also have pejoratives for patients they don't like.

I mean yeah, but then you're saying you use pejoratives for students that suck. Like are a-holes, bad personalities, entitled etc etc . Which I get and feels fair lol. I guess from your first post it read like you were saying "poor students" aka students doing poorly were given pejoratives at your school. But yeah, I have pejoratives for lame people too lol

Eta: whoops misunderstood. No, what I meant by that was that a student who initially had issues, but got it together could be subjected to unconscious bias if you decided to use a pejorative to refer to them right away. I could see the student losing out on opportunities etc bc those who decide to give them out will assume the student's current work is more due to luck since they are "pejorative". Idk, all I'm saying is those judgements last and aren't always fair.

 

[Planes2Doc]

I hear cheating is pretty rampant in med school.

A lot of doctors do too.

They either get sued, fined, or go to prison.

 

[Goro]

I mean yeah, but then you're saying you use pejoratives for students that suck. Like are a-holes, bad personalities, entitled etc etc . Which I get and feels fair lol. I guess from your first post it read like you were saying "poor students" aka students doing poorly were given pejoratives at your school. But yeah, I have pejoratives for lame people too lol

Eta: whoops misunderstood. No, what I meant by that was that a student who initially had issues, but got it together could be subjected to unconscious bias if you decided to use a pejorative to refer to them right away. I could see the student losing out on opportunities etc bc those who decide to give them out will assume the student's current work is more due to luck since they are "pejorative". Idk, all I'm saying is those judgements last and aren't always fair.

No matter how poorly our students do academically, as long as they not dinguses (and a rare few of them are), and they aren't failing, then we do everything in our power to make sure they walk on that stage at graduation and get the sheepskin.

We're quite proud of student who manage to turn things around. That's why most of the time we make poorly performing students take LOA instead of outright dismissing them.

Stop confusing words and thoughts with actions.

 

[sammiesings]

No matter how poorly our students do academically, as long as they not dinguses (and a rare few of them are), and they aren't failing, then we do everything in our power to make sure they walk on that stage at graduation and get the sheepskin.

We're quite proud of student who manage to turn things around. That's why most of the time we make poorly performing students take LOA instead of outright dismissing them.

Stop confusing words and thoughts with actions.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not confusing words and thoughts with actions. Simply stating that calling a student a pejorative, say "stupid" CAN and maybe even likely, causes an unconscious bias against the student. If you subconsciously think the student is stupid, you're more likely to hand an opportunity to a competing student based on this bc you're now viewing stupid's CV from that lens. And in that lens, not stupid's CV is better no matter what. Let's be real, it happens.

I mean come on, are you debating the fact that there are kids whose potential was stifled because too many early teachers decided they were "stupid"? I get that you try not to let this happen in this sphere, but I never thought or stated y'all would do this purposefully but rather, subconsciously. We cannot separate our thoughts/beliefs entirely from our actions.

Further, it sort of shoves the responsibility onto the student. Yes, fair point that it generally does lie with the student. But what if there's something y'all could do better that would benefit your school and medical education if you didn't just shrug and say to one another it's just "stupid being stupid." I mean, you probably won't discover anything revolutionary if you did this, but who knows?

At any rate, even if I'm talking out of my ass here, y'all should definitely aim not to use pejoratives in reference to students (unless they're aholes) if only because you'd be ashamed if they knew you used them. Also, it's kinda lame. I mean, to play devil's advocate, this is where y'all with the PhDs open yourselves up to the "what do you know, Mr. Never-been-through-it" spiel. That kinda respect has to go both ways. Food for thought

Ps: totally validating that you wait for a pattern, cheer on those who pull it together, give them tons of chances etc etc. But still a valid debate which is why I replied. Thanks for hearing me out

 

[intubesteak]

Stop confusing words and thoughts with actions.

I think you are fighting an uphill battle here. My generation has a lot of snowflakes that can't handle the heat..

Edit: Snowflake comment not referring to above posters who are struggling in school. I almost failed a test the other day which is why I am on this thread